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Subject: RotoGuru Invitational Hoops Challenge - Intro

Posted by: Guru - [330592710] Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 09:58

The list of managers for the 1st (Annual) RotoGuru Invitational Hoops Challenge has been set. This was a very difficult process, and I took a great deal of time and expended a lot of effort to make sure that my final list had a good rationale. Here is the alphabetical list of 12 managers (by Gurupie handle) who have accepted my invitation:

blackjackis21
coldwater coyotes
Dave R
Doug
Edgar/Swish City (collaborative effort)
Guru
Hoops Klyce
Lionprideguy
Philflyboy
Rand
rockafellerskank
ukula

In making selections, I considered all of the following criteria:
1. Demonstrated excellence in some Hoops format
2. RotoGuru Hall of Fame listing
3. GuruPatron support
4. Forum decorum – helpfulness, comportment, and value to the well-being of this message forum
5. Geography – the NBA has a global following, and I wanted this league to have international representation
6. Qualification to complete in a different sport

The last item is an important one, as I plan to offer similar opportunities in both baseball and football. To provide maximum opportunities, no one who is chosen for Hoops will be invited to participate in a challenge league for another sport (other than me, of course). Some qualified Hoops managers also have demonstrated expertise in other sports, and I bypassed some individuals with the expectation of inviting them in another sport.

I did consider expanding the league to 14 teams, but ultimately decided against it for this inaugural season. It is, however, possible that in other sports or future years the number of teams will be expanded.

Every team on the final list is managed by a GuruPatron. While I did not initially establish this as a requirement, it soon became clear that there were more than enough GuruPatrons to complete a highly qualified league. This is one way that I can give back something to those who have freely given to support the RotoGuru site.

There is absolutely no question that many highly qualified Gurupies were not invited. This is regrettable, but unavoidable. If you were not invited, you should not feel slighted in any way. You have lots of company. And I may be planning to invite you for another sport. But I had a strong rationale for inviting every manager on this last, and I am fully confident that this is a excellent group to launch this inaugural challenge.

It is very likely that this Challenge will become an annual undertaking. The top finishers will most likely be invited back next year. The bottom finishers may not. Where that line is drawn has yet to be determined, but this will be one way to keep everyone – even those who get off to a disappointing start – actively competing throughout the season.

Some of you have suggested setting up “qualifying” leagues, with the idea that the winners of these leagues will be invited to fill an opening in next year’s RIHC. I am open to this possibility, and without committing to anything at this point, I encourage you to pursue this. If you decide to set up or join one of these leagues, let me suggest that you use an 8 category roto-scoring format (FG%, FT%, 3pt, ast, reb, blk, stl, pts – and not HTH scoring). I will leave the other details to you.

Discussion on rules to follow shortly.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 41831612
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 10:06

Guru, great list. It’s always a good thing to have too many strong managers to choose from, even if it doesn’t seem that way come decision time. All a tribute to this great site. Good luck to everyone.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 10:09

Here are my tentative thoughts on rules and process. Nothing is yet set in stone, so your feedback is encouraged, not only from managers in this league, but from anyone.

I expect that the draft will begin around October 11th. This will partly depend on the availability of suitable league software by then. I plan to consider both TSN Draft & Trade and Yahoo! as potential platforms, but so far, neither has been launched for Hoops. This will be settled prior to the draft, since we will need to know how the selected system will handle position eligibility.

As I previously mentioned, the league will use standard 8-category roto scoring (FG%, FT%, 3-pt, ass, reb, stl, blk, pts). Each of the eight categories will be ranked from 1-12, with the best team getting 12 points, etc. The total team score is the sum of the rankings.

I'm contemplating that each team will have 12 active slots, which must include at least 4 guards, 4 forwards, and 2 centers. The remaining 2 active slots can be for any position. There will also be a bench, although I would like to keep the bench slots limited. My current thinking is that there will be 2 bench slots, which players can be rotated in and out of any active slot daily. There will, however, be an overall limit of 984 games played per team, which is 12x82. If we have 14 slots on the roster, that means we will need 14 draft rounds, during which we will select 168 players. Hopefully, we can complete the draft in 14 days or less.

In addition to the 14 roster slots, we will have several injured reserve (IR) slots. Subject to software capabilities, players can only be moved to an IR slot if they are put on the IR by their NBA team. IR slots raise several other issues, which we need to address prior to the draft:
1. Should we have a limit on the number of potential IR slots per team?
2. When a player is activated from the IR by his real NBA team, what should our requirement for activation be? (i.e., should there be a time limit during which the player must be either moved to a regular slot or released? If so, what length of time?)
3. Will we allow managers to pick up IR players as free agents and immediately place them in an IR slot? or should there be a minimum time that any free agent pickup must remain in one of the 14 active slots? How about drafted players who open the season on IR?

Are there other issues related to injuries that we should address in advance?

We will want to have some form of waiver period for undrafted and released players. This will probably be either 24 or 48 hours, depending on software capabilities.

The draft will be a snake draft. Draft order will be determined randomly, announced well in advance.

We should consider whether we will allow the drafting of players who are initially unlisted by league software. Every year, there are a few preseason surprises who make the team. My preference is to allow them to be drafted, with the proviso that the slot will simply remain open until TSN or Yahoo makes them available. In effect, drafting one of those players protects that player from a post-draft waiver claim.

I will serve as league Commissioner. Trades will be subject to some form of peer review. We'll see what the league software will accommodate.

This will be a publicized league. I plan to figure out some way to periodically post rosters and standings for public review. In addition, during the draft, each manager will be expected to post a brief rationale for each pick.

Ok, the floor is open for discussion.

Rubalamp
ID: 6615911
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 10:27

I just wish, with this group, the draft could happen early, or quicker, so that I would have a brain trust of fantasy guy's picks to look at when I go to do my drafts. I think it does make me a nerd, but I am looking forward to following this thing.

Dave R
Dude
ID: 1367294
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 11:40

Thanks Guru

Mike D
Donor
ID: 41831612
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 13:03

Dude, I'm jealous about that, well, "dude" title. First time I've seen that. Kudos!

Doug
Sustainer
ID: 31649212
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 13:03

Perhaps frighteningly, I already want to know the draft order so that I can start working on trying to trade draft picks. =-) Honored and excited to be part of this league Guru, thanks.

Doug
Sustainer
ID: 31649212
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 13:09

BTW, this may have been addressed previously in a different time/place, but shouldn't Guru have some sort of bold italic moniker under his name just like the patrons do? I would suggest something like:

Guru
Uberdude
ID: 330592710

=-)

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 461124288
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 13:13

My Comments:

Dave, Thanks for the invite.

I like the categories. I like the roster size (12 +2) and positional requirements (no specific PG for example).

There will, however, be an overall limit of 984 games played per team, which is 12x82. Will the limit be gross or by position? In otherwords, can I have 90 + 90 center games as long as I stay under the 984 limit? or am I cut off at 82 + 82 regardless of where I am in relationship to the gross limit?

IR I'd prefer to see 2 legit IR's per team provided the platform has the ability to force owners to move reactivated players onto their 14 player roster or release them. I think we may be at some mercy of the platform we use. The reason I'd like to see 2 IRs is in the event of multiple injury, an owner can still keep an active bench and have some decision making ability. If bad luck hits and your whole bench is injured, you just play your basic 12 and no need to manage. I think an IR pick up should have to spend 2 NBA games as part of 14 player roster before going to IR also.

Ok to draft players unlisted, but a vacant roster spot must be maintained.

Not specifically mentioned, but how about waivers? I'd prefer a 2 day waiver rule with all undrafted players starting on waivers. Waivers begin in reverse order of draft and maintain their cycle throughout the year. Keep your waiver spot as long as you don't use it, then go to the back of the line...

Just my $0.02, but I'll go with the flow. Looking forward to a fun year.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 13:15

LOL

maybe just...

Guru
Guru
ID: 330592710

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 13:26

My thinking on game limit is that it would simply be an overall limit across the entire team. No limits are applied by slot.

Agreed on waivers.

I've seen two approaches on removing players from an IR slot. One puts a time limit (e.g., one week) to move after the player is taken off the NBA's IR list. This may or may not be handled by the software, but we could still have a "gentlemen's agreement" to do this.

The other approach is to allow a player to remain in an IR slot indefinitely, as long as he got there legitimately.

The reason is don't like the latter approach as much is that it allows a team to shield a potentially attractive player from other teams without tying up a spot on his 14-man roster. It seems to me that if you have a player who is actively playing, you should have to put him on your 14-man squad or else make him available to the rest of the league.

Regarding draft order - here's how I'll do it. I need two different league managers to each send me a list of the numbers from 1-12, arranged randomly. I'll arrange the team names according to the first list, and assign the draft order according to the second list. The first two number lists to arrive in my email will be used, and I'll post the draft order here as soon as its ready. (Should be pretty quick, I'll bet.)

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 14:05

As I suspected...

The first set of numbers arrived from rfs at 1:36pm, and the second was from blackjackis21 at 1:43.

I applied the first set of numbers to reorder the alphabetical team listing above. Then I applied the second set of numbers to assign the draft order.

Here's the result:

Draft order
1 coldwater coyotes
2 rockafellerskank
3 Dave R
4 Edgar/Swish City
5 Hoops Klyce
6 ukula
7 Doug
8 Guru
9 blackjackis21
10 Philflyboy
11 Lionprideguy
12 Rand

This order applies to odd numbered rounds. Even numbered rounds will go in reverse order.

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 461124288
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 14:18

Not that I am offering up for trade, but is draft pick trading allowed? If so, what terms?

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 14:26

Draft pick trading... interesting...

I'd like to hear some feedback on this from other managers. I open to the possibilities.

ukula
Donor
ID: 408563011
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 15:25

I'd be receptive to draft pick trading.

ukula
Donor
ID: 408563011
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 15:26

rfs - I'll trade you my #6 and a box of twinkies for your #2. Mmmmmm.....twinkies......

Rubalamp
ID: 6615911
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 15:34

I am interested in knowing what would be the benefits of trading a pick in a fantasy league?

Last year after a few picks had been made, I traded 2 of my players and my next highest pick for another Ben Wallace and two low picks, but there was some balance. just trading draft position before anything has happened seems unwarranted.

Rubalamp
ID: 6615911
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 15:34

...besides Twinkies...

Mike D
Donor
ID: 41831612
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 15:36

Well, I'd rather pick 2nd than 6th.....

ukula
Donor
ID: 408563011
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 16:07

Rubalamp - the trade would be something like this - I'd trade my 1st round pick (#6) and my 5th round pick (#54) for his 1st round pick (#2). It wouldn't be a straight #2 for #6. Hope that clears things up.

Rubalamp
ID: 6615911
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 16:07

What would be the draw for the person picking 5th to trade down to tenth? Future considerations? I guess I just don't think there is motivation for anyone to trade without an additional motivator...See what I mean? Of course, everyone would love to move up, but who wants to move down, and why. That is what I am asking.

ukula
Donor
ID: 408563011
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 16:07

Hey where did post 19 go? Maybe it was my imagination. I picked the wrong week to stop drinking.

Dave R
Dude
ID: 1367294
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 17:33

Regarding Guru's post 2- I'm not sure I like the idea of adding players from the waiver wire to an IR slot, maybe thats normal, just seems odd to me. Defiantely 2 IR spots and if they come off IR ( by the league ) they can't stay there

I agree with the overall game limit by position rather than slot

All in everything else seems fine, good luck all.

Eugene
ID: 558492213
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 18:30

I want in the league I know i can beat some teams in this league

RimRocker
ID: 358403016
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 18:43

Guru,

Almost everything you are looking to do (except the IR time limits) can be easily be done on Yahoo's service. You can also post the link to the league and everyone can check in to see the standings and the team rosters(but of course not be able to do anything but view). I've managed a league on Yahoo for the last 3 years and it is really a great service (especially for free)...

RimRocker

Rubalamp
ID: 6615911
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 18:56

Ya, I thought someone meant trading their draft order, that was what was confusing me...IN fact, it was me confusing me...

Ukula, I deleted my post and replaced it, so, no, you picked a great week to stop drinking.

philflyboy
Leader
ID: 407561421
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 19:03

here are my takes on some of the issues being presented:
IR-two IR spots and when the person is taken off the IR (real NBA) then he must be removed from the game IR within a set time period.
When a player is picked up from the waiver wire he must be on the bench or in the lineup before he can be put into the IR
max games-I like the idea of a total amount of games played instead of by slot.
2 day waiver wire waiting period is a good idea

I will be away for the weekend of the 11th so starting on the 13th works better for me. If you start earlier I will have someone (Jumpball) make my picks for me.

that is all I can think of for now. I am looking forward to this league. I hope I have finally grasped how to play ROTO style well.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 20:38

Let me try this as an example.

Can anyone see the standings for this Yahoo baseball league? link

biliruben
Leader
ID: 49132614
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 20:39

is listed as empty, though I see the basic headers.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 20:41

That's what I thought. Does anyone know if/how a Yahoo league standings page can be viewed by someone who is not in that league? Rimrocker [25] says it can be done, but I thought it couldn't.

RimRocker
ID: 358403016
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 21:07

Guru,

Try this format:

http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/b1/show?lid=272155&page=leaguehome

I can get into other random leagues (just change the lid= up or down a couple of numbers) but not with the league id you gave. (The league you are seeing is not the one I was in by the way).
Any chance the league ID you gave is off by a number or something? Maybe there were some choices at sign-up to make the league not viewable?

RimRocker

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 461124288
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 21:18

FYI- When I was invited, I offered to donate a trophy or placque to the winner. It will have the RotoGuru logo (or perhaps a new logo) and engraved with your team name, etc...

Least I can do. Thanks Dave for the great site.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 21:19

That is my correct league ID. I don't know what the difference is attributable to.

RimRocker
ID: 358403016
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 21:26

Seems like all leagues with ids before 108101 are not viewable.
Talk about a big fat question mark...

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 21:39

I did some quick checking on Yahoo Hoops leagues, and there does not appear to be a league setting that addresses viewability by outsiders.

Also, it appears that Yahoo only provides for games played limits by position. For the rules I have stated above, this would be applied as follows:

The four guard slots would be limited to 4x82 games in total.
The four forward slots would be limited to 4x82 games in total.
The two center slots would be limited to 2x82 games in total.
The two utility slots would be limited to 2x82 games in total.

While that isn't quite the same as I had in mind, it is probably close enough. I can see that at the end of the season, managing the proper slots could be tricky.

Ender
Donor
ID: 13443221
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 22:17

I know you can see other leagues in football. Yahoo maintains adjusted score rankings and if you click on one of the leaders it takes you to that owners team and you can access the entire league to check out his competition.

I haven't tried to do it simply by a link to the league, but I would think that it would be possible based on the above.

biliruben
Leader
ID: 49132614
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 22:19

Maybe it's a matter if the league being private vs. public?

Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, Sep 30, 2003, 22:30

Perhaps. Maybe private leagues are not publicly viewable.

coldwater coyotes
SuperDude
ID: 33742418
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 00:28

Comments on the above:

I agree on daily trading.

I would prefer only one IR slot but with 3 bench slots.

After the NBA team takes a player off the IR list, I would suggest a 7 day period for managers to remove a player from IR list...this covers managers if they have any extended periods away from internet access.

I see no reason why we should not be able to pick up a player on the IR list whether in the draft or during the season.

Ok on drafting players who are not initially listed.

I like the draft trading capability provided Guru can handle this.

Dave R
Dude
ID: 1367294
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 00:29

Coldwater, nice to see you around

Good luck to all

Edgar
Leader
ID: 458944
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 04:06

Oops Coldwater now has the Superdude status. But soon the Uberdude status will be available.

On the IR thing: 2 slots seem fine, sure I agree that one a player goes of the IR in the NBA he will need to be activated in our league or be released. A 7 day period seem reasonable enough as a time frame. Picking up a player on IR: the player should be on a roster for 2 games I feel because else everyone just starts to pick up IR players to create a bigger roster and some added flexibility, do not think that adds to the fun and tactical play.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 07:35

Several of you have said that if you pick up an IR player, he should be on the roster for 2 games before you can put him on the IR. What does this mean? If the player is on the NBA IR, then he is not playing any games. Do you mean that you have to wait until he has played 2 games? This means that his current stint on the IR must all be spent on your 14 man roster.

Dave R
Dude
ID: 541437
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 07:40

Guru, thats my take on what was said
If you picked up a player on IR he would have to fill one of your active slots before he can be slid into IR status

Coldwater ( superdude ),well done

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 07:43

But fill an active slot for how long?

Dave R
Dude
ID: 541437
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 08:06

IMO 2 days is sufficient but i'm cool with longer

ukula
Donor
ID: 4492416
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 11:06

I would think there would be a lot of pressure on Hoops Klyce to win this league considering his business is helping people win fantasy basketball leagues.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 11:38

I was in an "experts" league with Hoops Klyce 2 years ago. He won.

I finished 4th that year, but I'm blaming Stevie Francis and his recurring migraines.

Dave R
Dude
ID: 1367294
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 11:46

I guess Francis gave you a migraine as well

Mike D
Donor
ID: 41831612
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 11:49

They're both day to day.

Rand
Donor
ID: 364152215
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 12:07

I agree that you should remove a player from
the IR if he is no longer eligible. A 5-7 day
grace period to get your line-up in order would
seem reasonable. Yahoo doesn't let you
make any waiver wire moves until you sort it
all out anyway, so I doubt it would be a big
issue.

However, I don't agree that an IR pick-up
should have to spend time on your bench, or
whatever, before you put him in an IR slot. I've
never known that to be a violation in any of the
Roto games I've played so it seems like an
unnecessary measure to me. I'll go along with
it, if that's the consensus, but I don't really see
the point.

Man, I can't believe I got the 12th pick...like
being stupid isn't enough of a disadvantage:)

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 12:28

Yeah, but you also have the 13th pick.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 12:41

The rationale for forcing an IR pickup to first go on the active roster is to avoid allowing people to use their IR slots to simply warehouse a player for a rainy day.

If we force IR players to be activated when they go off the IR, then this is less of an issue. Either that player gets released back into the waiver pool, or else another player gets released.

In some leagues that I've been in, the primary activity around opening day is to for all managers to fill up their IR slots with players who will start the year injured.

I guess my suggestion would be to allow managers to pick up an injured player and IR him immediately, as long as there is also a requirement to activate a player within 7 days of his removal from the NBA's IR. The latter requirement will have to be manually enforced. If you forget, there is no penalty until someone points it out, at which time it must occur ASAP.

Question: If we use Yahoo, is it even possible to add a player directly to an IR slot without first clearing out room on the active roster? Probably not, since I think Yahoo doesn't let you assign the position (or IR) until after the player is added to the bench. If so, then most times, any injured pickup would first have to dislodge an active player - which provides further protection against indiscriminate warehousing.

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 27652109
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 12:52

In Yahoo you must have a roster spot (1 of 14) available for the player. Once added, you can move him to DL and add another player to your team -- even another DL. In Yahoo, all adds done today appear on your roster tomorrow anyway. So, the kind of "wait" one day -- kinda.

Rand
Donor
ID: 364152215
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 12:54

No, Yahoo doesn't let you put an injured player
directly from the waiver wire into the IR slot,
you must sacrifice a player first.

Guru, just sent you back an email with the info
you requested.

skinneej
Leader
ID: 40625911
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 13:39

The last two posts are correct concerning IR players in Yahoo. A player must be on your roster before he can be designated for the IR spot. In order to pick that player up off waivers, you must have at least one spot available on your active roster (starters plus bench slots). After the pickup, that player is not on your active roster until the next day at which time you can make the move. Since Yahoo allows you to make future day roster changes, you can then pickup another player off the WW once the injured player is moved to the IR slot (which also becomes effective the next day). You cannot pick a player up off waivers and have him in your lineup on the same day.

One note to add concerning IR players that are activiated. Yahoo does not force you to move an IR player back to your active roster when he is activated, but you cannot make any WW pickups until those players are moved from the slot. You will get an error message when you try to do this something to the effect of This move can not be made because there is a player on IR that is not eligible. I believe trades can be still accomplished with a non-injured player on the IR, but this keeps managers from making other pickups while hiding a guy on the IR.

Concerning new position eligibilites and new player additions, Yahoo tends to be a little slow in adding them. Once a player reaches a new position eligibilty or a player not in the database plays his first game, it can be anywhere from a few days to a couple weeks before the change is made. That is probably the only complaint I have had with Yahoo the pst several seasons.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 13:54

Thanks, skinneej, that's useful info.

Here is my current thinking on continuance in subsequent years, qualifying leagues, new entrants, etc.

1. The top six finishers (plus ties, if any) will automatically be invited to participate in the following year (unless there are behavioral issues that require banishment - which I certainly don't expect from this group!)

2. The bottom 3 finishers will be replaced with new managers in the following year.

3. Those finishing 7-9 will be in limbo. Their re-entry will depend on the number of qualified new managers, the size of the league in the subsequent year, the closeness of the competition, etc.

4. I will be exempt from item 3. If I finish in the bottom three, I still get to return. Hosting this site has to have some privileges!

5. New managers for the following year will be selected by me. One criteria that I will weigh heavily is the results of "qualifying" leagues this year - with scoring rules that are very similar to the rules of this league. Winners of qualifying leagues will not automatically be invited, however. Other factors will be considered, including GuruPatron status, comportment at the forum, geographical representation, participation in other RotoGuru Invitational leagues (i.e, other sports), etc.

Doug
Sustainer
ID: 31649212
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 13:57

Draft pick trading trading - Yes

Drafting players who are not initially listed - Yes

7-day max to remove a reactivated player from IR - Yes

IR pickups - Yes... I like the way Yahoo! handles it... you must have an active spot on your roster to make the pickup, but you can then immediately move to IR and make another pickup to backfill that reopened active roster slot. I will go along with a 2-day "hold" period if that's what is agreed, but would rather not deal with it unnecessarily. I see effectively managing your IR slot as part of the game (and that includes making wise decisions on how/when to fill it), but for this reason I also heavily prefer having 1 IR slot to having 2.

Personally I like deep benches... reward managers for making good deep pickups in their roster... also encourages a more trading vs. waiver wire pickups since teams have more depth to trade from and less "equivalent options" available on waivers, etc. I think 3 is an optimal number, but if not then I would prefer 4 over 2. As noted above, I prefer 1 IR slot to 2... so, my personal bench preferences (in order) are:

3 bench/1 IR
4 bench/1 IR
2 bench/1 IR
3 bench/2 IR
2 bench/2 IR

Guru
ID: 330592710
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 14:15

Any other feedback on bench & IR slots? My thinking in setting it as low as 2 was to keep as many "unused" players as possible in the free agent pool, rather than shielded on someone's bench.

I'd like to hear from others on this. I am certainly amenable to Doug's suggestion.

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 27652109
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 14:22

Prefer 3/2 but will go with the flow. I agree with Doug's logic.

Dave R
Dude
ID: 1367294
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 16:55

3/1 gets my vote

If you are unfortunate enough to have 2 injured players, one just occupies a spot on the bench.

Certainly happened enough to me in baseball this year

Dave R
Dude
ID: 1367294
Wed, Oct 01, 2003, 21:24

Ive registered and emailed edgar

I guess it will be awhile before he does anything

lionprideguy
Sustainer
ID: 906204
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 03:59

I'd go for the 3/1 option as well. Could help to promote more trading, but I'll also defer on this subject to those with more experience for what works. A manager can always have the option of just holding a second injured player on his bench if they choose, just another part of strategy and roster management.

I think at least a few days of a window for IR reactivation is probably best as well. I can understand the delay taking some of the strategy out of the game, but it would help with anybody's travel schedules if they're away for a few days and unable to act right away.

Everything else looks well thought-out and reasonable - looking forward to the season!

Edgar
Leader
ID: 458944
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 07:34

Just entered the league and send an email to Hoops Klyce.

On the bench/IR thing I favor the 3/2. I am expecting a lot of injuries ;-)

Swish City
Leader
ID: 34634306
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 07:49

I would go for 3/1 also. Having another IR guy on the bench seems fine to me.

7 days to remove an activated IR player also seems sensible for the potential roster inaccessibility reasons discussed previously.

Edgar - can you email me regarding the account you've used to register.

hoopsklyce
Leader
ID: 5392426
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 08:25

I am in the league now
hoopsklyce

Guru
ID: 330592710
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 12:13

It looks like we are narrowing down the bench/IR choices to 2 favorites. Everyone so far has been supporting either 3/1 or 3/2. I'll let the majority rule. Please wiegh in if you haven't already.

Here's what I have for votes:
3/1 - Dave R, Doug, lionprideguy
3/2 - rockafellerskank

Swish City and Edgar voted for 3/1 and 3/2 respectively, so I guess their team vote is a tie.

Need to hear from coldwater, hoopsklyce, ukula, blackjack, Philflyboy, and Rand. I'll break a tie if needed.

philflyboy
Leader
ID: 407561421
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 12:21

3/1 works for me.

coldwater coyotes
SuperDude
ID: 33742418
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 12:45

3/1

Rand
Donor
ID: 364152215
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 12:58

I know that in the middle of the season I'll
regret this, but I'm thinking 3/1 is the way to go.

Dave R
Dude
ID: 1367294
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 13:49

That should be enough 3/1's to make the call

Guru
ID: 330592710
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 13:55

OK - 3/1 it is.

This means we'll have 15 rounds of the draft.

What about start date? I tentatively said 10/11, although this is not a hard & fast date. Waiting longer has the advantage of gathering more preseason info and avoiding early injuries (like McDyess last year), but puts more pressure on the speed of the process, and also makes it less valuable for observers who may be looking for ideas for their own drafts.

I don't think there is any need to start earlier, however.

I know that some of you have potential date conflicts. Let's get those all on the table here before making a final decision.

philflyboy
Leader
ID: 407561421
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 14:13

as I posted earlier I am scheduled to be out of town from the 11th-13th. Jumpball is going to help me with this team and he will be around to do the draft that weekend so we are covered. We can start anytime.

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 27652109
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 14:21

I have no conflicts, prefer as early as is agreeable to everone else.

Doug
Sustainer
ID: 31649212
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 14:49

I would rather get started sooner with a greater "time per pick" allottment than waiting and rushing. Injuries happen. The unfortunate manager will just have to deal. It's also something to be mindful of during drafting (certain players have more injury tendencies, but you never know...) Anyway, I think I just cursed myself. =-)

hoopsklyce
Leader
ID: 59923214
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 16:24

I'm OK with 12 active 3 bench 2 IR
I like having a 'weak' free agent pool

I would be OK with 12 active 5 bench 2 IR

but whatever the majority says if fine
would like to get draft going as well
david

Dave R
Dude
ID: 1367294
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 16:28

I will be in Hilton Head returning 10/11 but will have limited access. Although I would prefer to wait til I return, I'll just deal with it.

I probably wont be available Friday or until 6 EST on saturday but to not hold up the 1st round I could just email someone my top 3 choices and they could draft for me

ukula
Donor
ID: 33923212
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 16:52

I say 3/2. Would the draft be 15 rounds? or 17?

I can draft anytime. I have no plans. I have no life.

Doug
Sustainer
ID: 31649212
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 17:05

You do not draft your IR slot(s), so 15 rounds. If you draft someone who is IR eligible, you can place them on IR after the draft completes (and the website is updated with our rosters, etc.) and then submit a waiver claim to fill the active bench spot.

coldwater coyotes
SuperDude
ID: 57111916
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 19:03

Tim Duncan is available on Oct 11th. all he needs now is a flashy suit to wear for the draft room.
And I need a shirt for him to hold up.

I would consider trades for the No 1 pick.

Dave R
Dude
ID: 541437
Thu, Oct 02, 2003, 21:32

I guess the cats out of the bag on the first pick

lionprideguy
Sustainer
ID: 906204
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 04:58

coldwater already begins to tempt us! Sitting at #11, I thought I'd look back at recent #11 picks in the NBA Draft, which were Jared Jeffries, Kendrick Brown, Jerome Moiso, and Trajon Langdon. Ouch, not a good omen.

I'm okay to start drafting anytime around 10/11, although I will be semi-limited both the 11th and 12 with some work commitments for parts of both days. After that I'll be around consistantly to draft anytime.

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 461124288
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 10:02

If we are going to allow trades, I'd consider moving down a few spots if anyone wants to move up to "lock" their #2 guy. I'd look for some compensation in a later round(s) in return.

leggestand
Sustainer
ID: 4881297
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 10:05

Guru,

I have a question for you. I have always been under the assumption that you should have an even number of rounds in a snake draft. With 15 rounds, the 12th picking coach in the first and last round of the draft will be the same. Shouldn't the draft be 14 or 16 rounds to ensure at least a little equality? I know pickings are slim when yiou get to these rounds, but I think it gives a slight disadvantage to the 8th through 12 pickers if you have an odd number of rounds.

leggestand
Sustainer
ID: 4881297
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 10:06

And by the way, I know I am not in the league, but I am in the "qualifying league." Since we are trying to run it the same, I figured I could take questions to you.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 11:55

By the time we reach the 15th round, the sequence of picks isn't particularly meaningful. Also, since waiver priority goes in reverse draft order, ending with an odd round actually dovetails naturally with waiver priorities.

I've been in snake drafts with both even and odd numbers of rounds. Not a real concern.

leggestand
Sustainer
ID: 4881297
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 12:00

Good point with the waiver priority.

Doug
Sustainer
ID: 31649212
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 15:05

I'm always up for trading... if anyone is interested in the #7 spot let me know...

hoopsklyce
Leader
ID: 5392426
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 20:43

any thoughts on time limits for draft picks

for example after 48 hours the draft by passes to the next manager. The deliquent manager would get his pick whenever he gets back in touch.
david

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 461124288
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 20:45

I think time limit 24-48 hours is good. I'd also recommend that the onwer that picks, e-mails the next owner he is up to give an "alert" for those not checking as frequently.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Fri, Oct 03, 2003, 21:20

24 hours is probably a good place to start. Hopefully, no one will come close to this limit, however, and we should try to average no slower than a round per day.

Time zone differences may cause occasional delays, I realize. We have four teams in the Pacific time zone, one in the central, 6 in the east, and one in western Europe.

lionprideguy in NCal
Sustainer
ID: 289471616
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 02:50

Greetings from behind enemy lines ...

Just registered my team, only one more to go and we're set.

24 hours seems like the best draft limit since we have to get 15 rounds in before October 28. At that pace, we would be in trouble if we fall behind the rate of a round a day. Unfortunately it looks like we're moving backwards against time zones for some of the draft order, so depending on people's sleep habits we could be delayed by that working against us. Otherwise, everybody is on top of things so that's about the only challange I'd anticipate.

blackjackis21
Leader
ID: 34837521
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 04:32

I don't anticipate any problems the rest of the month - should be available and am looking forward to it!

rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 461124288
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 09:48

I see that all 12 owners are logged into Yahoo! I also see that Duncan is on coldwater's roster. Does this mean that although the official draft hasn't started yet, we are makng picks if we elect too? Or perhaps the Duncan pick was just Guru experimenting w/ commish tools?

philflyboy
Leader
ID: 407561421
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 10:20

everything is in place, it would seem that we could start anytime. Takes away some of the rush to get things done by the start of the season.

Rand
Donor
ID: 364152215
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 10:36

OK, I'm in and good to draft anytime.

Guru
ID: 330592710
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 11:17

Just experimenting, so see whether rosters would reflect picks entered during the draft. While the Yahoo draft page does show picks as they are entered, the "available players" page does not reflect this.

I'm doing some programming to set up a draft recap page which will show all of the picks made, sorted both by pick number, but also arranged by roster. While league members could follow this by looking at the Yahoo draft page, outsiders could not. And, of course, my formatting will be nicer!

I also have to do some work on pre-ranking players - for my own purposes. I understand the urge to get going, but frankly, I am not yet ready. If people want to start picking, that's fine with me, but when it gets to me, I'm probably not going to be ready for a few more days - although I might be able to figger out a first round pick when the time comes.

I want to set up a separate thread for draft picks. There will also be a separate thread for draft pick rationale & discussion. Let me get those set up first.

coldwater coyotes
SuperDude
ID: 33742418
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 11:59

Re Duncan as my possible first pick.
After looking through the threads in the Political Forum all I can say is don't believe everything you read.

hoopsklyce
Leader
ID: 5392426
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 12:18

I might suggest that an owner who anticipates his pick coming up right after 'bedtime' email to the next guy top two picks (if they are comfortable doing that) to avoid snags. Otherwise I think we should be OK with draft pace. I like 24 hours flat as limit.
David

lionprideguy in NCal
Sustainer
ID: 289471616
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 13:34

Good to see everybody anxious to start! I'm afraid I'm similar to Guru in that I'm not quite ready yet, either, still need to take some time to work on some player rankings. Is Dave R in Hilton Head still as well?

Just as a heads up, I'm afraid I will be out of touch from now until late Sunday night as I hit the road again. It's the only time all month I'll be away, though. I don't want to hold anything up and will catch up as soon as I can when I get back tomorrow night.

100

Guru
ID: 330592710
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 15:48

No one should feel pressured into making an early pick. If you're ready and want to, go ahead. If you want to take some extra time, for whatever reason, you have that opportunity.

101

Swish City
Leader
ID: 56958413
Sat, Oct 04, 2003, 16:27

I must say as well that myself and Edgar are not yet ready to draft. Our plan all along was to use this week to establish our draft order. A 1st round pick could be possible, but it won't be until later in the week at the earliest that we are prepared to go deeper into the draft.

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