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Subject: So much for unwritten rules in baseball !!
Posted by: WiddleAvi
- [2102389] Mon, Aug 06, 10:52
So say your up by 7 in the 7th inning.....(or 14-2) do you just stop trying to score more ?? Do you stop stealing bases ?? I think that is messes up. As long as the opposing team is still playing then you try and score more runs. I didn't see after the 4th inning of last nights mariners game but did they have opportunitys to steal bases to put more runs on the board ? |
| 1 | Kings Fan
ID: 4075669
Mon, Aug 06, 10:56
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I was thinking the same thing while watching last night's game. In this era of the "juiced ball" and "thin" pitching staffs, no lead is safe...
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| 3 | rfs @ work
ID: 18757610
Mon, Aug 06, 11:05
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although I agree that "unwritten" rules are ridiculous and no lead is safe.
I think Lou did the right thing. 50 games over .500, I'd pull my studs everytime. Even if the other team comes back to win (which happens once every 76 years !!), the benefit of the rest more than outweighs this one loss in the long run.
Overwhelming odds say SEA wins and gets some down time for Boone, Ichiro, et al
rfs
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| 4 | ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 4324316
Mon, Aug 06, 11:07
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The biggest thing in baseball is there is no clock...basically any team could come back from any deficit as long as they have one out to work with. With todays inflated offenses I think these old-timers need to rethink some of the unwritten rules.
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| 5 | ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 4324316
Mon, Aug 06, 11:13
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rfs...definitely don't have a problem with what Lou did...he needs to be playing for the postseason right now and that definitely means resting some of the regulars. Lou did bring in his top flight relievers to close it out which probably 99 times out of 100 they are successful in that same situation...really have to pin this loss on the stoppers in the Seattle bullpen...but then again they have probably earned a bad outting or two since they have been great for the rest of the season.
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| 6 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Mon, Aug 06, 11:13
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Ohh but the unwritten rules say no stealing after big leads in the 7th!! No stealing, no bunting and if anyone thinks you are trying to score any runs then you will be severely chastized and dismissed as a bush leaguer by all who know that the unwritten rules are more important than the written ones! You guys are crazy to talk that stuff!! Don't blaspheme here in this hallowed Guru baseball message domain for fear that someone may advocate throwing a fastball at your ribs!! Who cares if they came back from all those runs down, rules are rules! These rules are so important, they can't be written down lest they be tainted by the ink used to record them! Live by the rules, love the rules, and if someone breaks the rules, remember, just like every policy, law or practice that is 100 years old, the rules are right and there is no challenging or criticizing them. It's like when women have the audacity to go out and try to vote, for god's sake!
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| 7 | chode at work
ID: 41046211
Mon, Aug 06, 11:18
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That's a lot of typing for a little mediocre sarcasm.
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| 8 | Khahan
ID: 12432113
Mon, Aug 06, 11:32
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You are up 7 runs in the 7th innning and somebody steals a base and shows up your team? Fine, plunk the next guy or the showboat next time he is up, put him on base, help them score MORE runs, then move on. Don't give press conferences or call the person out for a feud. Isn't that also one of those 'unwritten rules?'
But don't do it because some code of ethics says that is how its done. Do it because you think that is what needs to be done, then get on with the game. The manager of a big league team needs to make these decision himself, not with the help of some code. If he can't make the decision one way or the other he shouldn't be managing.
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| 9 | Khahan
ID: 12432113
Mon, Aug 06, 11:42
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ok, that first line should be down 7 runs, not up.
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| 10 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Mon, Aug 06, 11:45
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Agreed, Khahan. Lopes shouldn't be managing. Aside from the fact that teams score more these days, even the eye for an eye logic behind it is absurd. A pitch thrown hard enough to "send a message" is capable of doing some real damage, especially if the pitcher doesn't hit his "intended" spot, like on the butt or some other place not likely to injure the hitter.
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| 11 | Razor
Donor
ID: 24553911
Mon, Aug 06, 12:20
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I don't know why you guys are talking like overcoming 12 run leads is happening everyday now. It's happened once in the last 75 years. What happened with Pittsburgh last week and Cleveland yesterday are freak occurences. You're not going to intentionally walk Vinny Castilla just because he had 4 HR's in a game. Same type of freak thing. Maybe teams are a little more prone to getting come back on now, but I think there's a fine line between a comebackable lead and an uncomebackable lead. I mean, if you think a 7 run lead isn't big enough and you really want to steal that base to get that 7th insurance run, you deserve to lose. I wouldn't have any problem with somebody getting beaned for swiping a base with a 12 run lead in the 7th. That's just stats padding.
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| 12 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Mon, Aug 06, 12:51
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Nobody should ever be hit by a pitch for any reason other than an accident. Acknowledging that baseball simply does not work that way, it's still silly and neglegent to accept such a ludicrous flaw as fair or reasonable just because it's always been done that way. Now with that Cle game, there have been 3 such comebacks (7 down in the 7th) in the last 3 weeks alone. Hardly a freak occurance.
And Razor, you say you have no problem with someone getting beamed? Do you really mean to drop that to another level? I think that most retaliatory pitches are aimed for the upper arm or backside or thigh. Me thinks you have a warped view of what the so called and already warped enough "unwritten rules" are.
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| 13 | Khahan
ID: 12432113
Mon, Aug 06, 13:05
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Like I said, if you want to showboat, expect the other team to take their frustration out. The manager should make the decision to bean or not to bean because he feels the message needs to be sent, not because some unwritten code of ethics says this is when and why. Once the bean is made, then it should be over. Showboating is done, message sent, message received, continue on with your game. Bean balls ARE a part of baseball, whether for better or worse. But they are probably the most discretionary. The only reason this is such a hot issue is because we have people managing that don't feel comfortable doing it yet trying to hide behind a wall for their decisions (Ben Davis and Kurt Schilling incident and Henderson/Lopes incident for example). Before this season, how many bean balls got this much attention? And how often was the issue of the 'unwritten rules' raised in defense of the beanball, or another action. Just play the game, accept your role and its consequences and get over it.
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| 14 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Mon, Aug 06, 13:13
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Khahan,
First blatent flaw is that is once a beanball is thrown, it is never over. It just brings the issue to a new level. When have you ever seen a game when any obvious purpose-pitch (beanball or not) was thrown and nothing else came of it? Also, before this season, Roger Clemens has started a number of incidents (Piazza and before that, more than once to Jeter in his Toronto days). To say that all of this attention being given to purpose pitches, is new is incorrect.
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| 15 | Razor
Donor
ID: 24553911
Mon, Aug 06, 13:38
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Randy Johnson used to go after Kenny Lofton like there was no tomorrow.
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| 16 | Khahan
ID: 12432113
Mon, Aug 06, 13:44
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First, when Clemens hit Piazza, he did not hide behind some unwritten rule. That is what what 2 incidents this year have focused on, both of which are not even bean ball incidents. That was the main point of my post; that this unwritten rule defense is a sham and managers and players need to get over it.
Second, even when intentional, teams and players still get on with the game. They don't take the issue to the media for the next 3 weeks. They don't stop the game to argue about it (though occasionally they do for a fist fight, but even then, the game continues on and people get over it).
Maybe we're talking about 2 different things MITH. I just think some of these newer managers don't have the balls to make a decision and this whole unwritten rule debate going on this year is a result of that. I think maybe you are talking beanballs when I'm talking rule books.
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| 17 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Mon, Aug 06, 13:53
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I see what you're saying, and we apparently agree that using the "unwritten rules" as an excuse or as a threat is harmful to the game. I think where we disagree is that I feel that the "rules" themselves are harmful to a silimar extent and is a flawed, BS, macho excuse for logical fairness.
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| 18 | Lutefisker
ID: 3175615
Mon, Aug 06, 15:10
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What happened to the unwritten rule about not whining about breaking unwritten rules?
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| 19 | KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 266182910
Mon, Aug 06, 18:00
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"Unwritten Rules" are just a crybaby's way of crying without actually crying. No lead is ever safe. I don't care what the odds say about your chances of winning, it's not a safe lead. Do you rest your guys? Only if you think you can win without them. And what if you don't win without them? Then you know your bench sucks and you better reconsider resting the starters next time you have a big lead. The "Rules" are the rules and are the only rules. All other rules are just whining in the form of "rules". FWIW, I think Lou was right to pull his starters, but I don't think the rest outweighs the loss. A loss like that is a crushing blow to the morale of a team, no matter what your record is. The looks on some of the Mariners faces after they lost made it look like they just got swept in the World Series.
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| 20 | The Beezer
Leader
ID: 191202817
Mon, Aug 06, 18:12
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This kinda leads to a question I've always wondered about - why is "running up the score" OK in individual sports but not in team sports? I never saw Earl Anthony throw it in the gutter in the last 3 frames just because he was up 80 pins (there's one for ya, KKB!), or Tiger Woods 7-putting when he was up 8 strokes.
It's one thing to ease up to rest players, take less of a chance for injuries, etc., but quite another to say that at a certain point you shouldn't try to play your best. Or maybe that's just the Sooner football fan in me talking. :)
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| 21 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 28059111
Mon, Aug 06, 18:53
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A couple quick points:
1. Both managers were right to pull guys out of last night's game. Great comeback by the Indians, but they didn't win because Lou pulled some regular fielders. They won because they had a series of improbable hits against the best bullpen in the majors (Lou didn't hold back any pitchers).
2. The Lopes situation seems to be where we should be able to make a better argument about it never being over until it's over, but (of course!) Lopes doesn't have a team with the firepower of Cleveland.
3. That said, the improbability of Cleveland's comeback doesn't deter from the argument that Lopes was dealing with a situation in which comebacks of the size of his team's deficit were commonplace.
4. KKB I'm going to remember your comments about "unwritten rules" when we have our yearly argument about the place of goons in hockey. :)
pd
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| 22 | WiddleAvi
ID: 2372620
Mon, Aug 06, 20:02
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The way I see it.....As long as the game is going on you play your hardest and do what you could to score and stop the other team from scoring. This whole unwritten rules is B.S. .....If a coach should be mad at anyone it should be at his own team for falling that far behind. I heard on some radio station here that in football when a team is up they run the ball more so that is sort of like not stealing with a 7 run lead. Yet I disagree because football is a 60 minute game....Running the ball is not so much being nice to the other team as much as trying to take time off the clock. my 2 cents
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| 23 | Rogue's Strikers
ID: 33732119
Mon, Aug 06, 20:06
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If I were a MLB coach I wouldn't ever pay any attention to these so called 'unwritten rules'. I'd play my team to win games, simple as that.
Would I give the steal sign to a guy on 1B, 7th inning and a 20 point lead? You bet. Thats baseball. Why should a 20 point lead take a SB chance away from the baserunner? What if he ends the year with 149 SB, and some other guy finishes with 150. Is it fair that the guy with 150 was never in a situation that he 'wasn't supposed to run in?' We put so much interest in stats, like 30/30 seasons, hitting streaks, etc. and then we go and say 'its wrong to pad stats'. Why is it not bush league for a power hitter to go up there and swing for the fences in a 20-run lead game, but it is for a speedy SB guy (Ichiro maybe?) to try and pad HIS top catagory?
I'd probably be the most reviled MLB manager in history for ignoring the unwritten rules. I wouldn't care too much about it though. If it gained my team one extra win over the course of the season that'd be reason enough for me. Baseball is a sport, you play to win. Especially at the top levels, with pros making millions of dollars.
If the team who is down 20 runs doesn't like the guy stealing 2nd base, fine. TRY AND THROW HIM OUT. Its called baseball. Nobody asks Jagr to take a weak shot if his team is up 10-1, nobody asks Vince Carter to stop dunking when the Raptors are up 30 points. If you ask me, expecting a team to stop trying just because your losing by alot of runs makes YOU look like the wuss.
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| 24 | Stuck in the Sixties
Leader
ID: 12451279
Mon, Aug 06, 20:10
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Well said, Perm Dude -- saves me some typing.
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| 25 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 28059111
Mon, Aug 06, 20:44
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You got a beef with KKB about penalty minutes being positive points in SW, too?
:)
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| 26 | KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 1111592718
Mon, Aug 06, 21:01
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PD, isn't there an "unwritten" forum rule about cross-posting sports? ;)
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| 27 | ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 174140
Mon, Aug 06, 21:35
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Isn't there an unwritten rule against using the term "point" when referring to a "run" in baseball. That's it! You are getting drilled next time you step in the batters box...RS already breaking the unwritten rules! ;-)
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| 28 | Rogue's Strikers
ID: 33732119
Mon, Aug 06, 21:37
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Ow!! Hey, he aimed for my foot! Isn't that a 6 game suspension?
;)
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| 29 | Lutefisker
ID: 3175615
Mon, Aug 06, 22:54
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I wouldn't give a guy a go-ahead to steal if my team had a large lead but not because of some un-written rule. Rather, I would be worried about an unfortunate accident to a star player over a run that would probably not be necessary.
As for the 2 most important unwritten rules:
1: Don't whine.
2: When in doubt as to what to do, see rule #1.
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| 30 | rockafellerskank
Donor
ID: 4911539
Mon, Aug 06, 23:07
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other baseball sound bites
"There's no crying in baseball"
if the "crying link doesn't work.... click on the "other baseball sound bites link" and go to LINK #2 under A League Of Their Own
rfs
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| 31 | Razor
Donor
ID: 24553911
Mon, Aug 06, 23:26
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Exactly Lute.
Rogue - hypothetically, if you were a major league manager, you'd get fired after a week because your whole team would hate you for making them break the unwritten rules and them consequently getting beaned for it. People don't like taking intentional beanballs. Pitchers are expected to retaliate, it's like sticking up for your guy.
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| 33 | j o s h
ID: 67971
Tue, Aug 07, 01:22
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Unwritten rules are a field of dreams
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| 34 | allhair allstars
Sustainer
ID: 36620316
Tue, Aug 07, 07:26
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Here's a little something to read from last year's board. The article is good, but skip most of the discussion.
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