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0 Subject: future HOF's

Posted by: rockafellerskank
- Donor [4911539] Mon, Aug 13, 22:33

I was talking to a friend about this topic a few days ago: Who would make the HOF if they quit at the end of this season. For example... Big MAC may just retire if there ia lockout next year.

Te only criteria is ACTIVE players.

(NOT by injury or tragedy -- IE Kirby Pucket), but rather just decided to stop playing and retire.

Here is my lisy of Sure-fire HOF'ers..

Gwynn
Cal
Big Mac
Bonds
R. Henderson
Frank Thomas - expect debate here!
RJ
Maddux
Clemens

remember on the 'maybes' that it is NOT based on what they MIGHT do, but what they have done already!


MAYBE...... Pedro?, Griffy JR?, Canseco?, Pedro?, McGriff?, Sosa?, Piazza?, (best hitting C of all time??), Baines?, Palmeiro?, EDgar Martinez?, Glavine? Smoltz? Wells?, Larkin?, Grace?

rfs

I'm sire MITH will have $0.02 to put in....



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43ChicagoTRS
      Sustainer
      ID: 4324316
      Tue, Aug 14, 14:28
Sosa is a lock...maybe not if he retired today but he is only 32 years old and probably has 5 more solid years left. Conservatively 40-50 more homer seasons and all of a sudden he is well past 600 homers. Plus he is not totally one dimensional...he does have one or two gold gloves, an MVP, over 200 career steals...
44Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Tue, Aug 14, 14:38
I see Blizz did mention Palmero in post 26. Sorry. One thing; you compare Ichero to Cone, AROD and Manny on your list? I know that my opinion of what it takes to be a HOF comes into question often, but Ichero? The guy doesn't even have one (1) full season in the bigs under his belt. Throw Mariano Rivera in with those "jury is still out" guys.
45Unemployed
      Donor
      ID: 53428912
      Tue, Aug 14, 15:25
ChicagoTRS, I was starting to point out some negative things about Sosa but I erased it. As much as I dislike Sosa I'm sure he will get to the HOF too. Unless his production drastically decreases starting next season, his home runs will get him in even if I wouldn't vote for him.

Madman, there are some younger people who have really only seen Rickey in the last half decade or so and have no idea how amazing this guy has been. He's a first ballot lock for sure. I'm glad no one's arguing for Damon though.

The interesting thing about that HOF Monitor that PD posted above is that it takes into acount how often players led different categories. They
consider a rating of 100-129 as good possibilities and 130+ as "virtual cinches."
According to their list Thomas, Belle, Alomar are all locks, with Bagwell, Piazza and Edgar pretty close behind.
46Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Tue, Aug 14, 15:36
I suppose this will only serve to undermine the credability of that site in most people's minds but I can't resist mentioning that Don Mattingly's rating there is 134.0.
47Unemployed
      Donor
      ID: 53428912
      Tue, Aug 14, 15:49
LMAO. I was wondering when Donnie Baseball would get a mention in this thread.
48ChicagoTRS
      Sustainer
      ID: 4324316
      Tue, Aug 14, 15:50
I don't think Edgar has a shot...DH will be held against him.
49Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Tue, Aug 14, 15:53
Haha. I resisted as long as I could, it's tough for me you know!
: )
50Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 28059111
      Tue, Aug 14, 15:57
Hard to tell on Edgar. By the time he comes up people may have adjusted their thinking on the DH.

pd
51Bob Sacamano
      ID: 21634217
      Tue, Aug 14, 16:58
a couple of more seasons like the last few, and he'll make it in, DH or no DH.

52rockafellerskank
      Donor
      ID: 4911539
      Tue, Aug 14, 17:11
MITH- I believe that MCGriff holds the record for most consecutive 20+ HR season w/ 12 (he had only 19 w/ TB in 1998) then posted 3 more by the way.

I cannot find any other obvious choices than have over 12, but I didn't look that long, although I may be corrected.

Another interesting point was brought up -- The DH -- Some players may chose to go this route to extend their careers, but will it be held against them by the voters? Do they need MVP caliber years as DH or "compiler" years as a DH? A World Series as a DH would certainly help.

There will always be debate on what gets you in on the first ballot (what I consider as a lock). There has never been a unanamous HOF admission. WHAT? You mean there was actually a guy who checked "NO" when it came to Seaver and Ryan and Aaron and on and on and on....

If there wasn't agreement on those names, I doubt that we will ever agree on Frank Thomas and Mattingly; nor will they when the time comes.

BTW, not that it's fair, but tying the "baseball's most unlikeable" thread to this one. Belle will be further hurt because of the perception that was so unfriendly. Bonds,too, will lose some of his vote because of his (lack of)interaction with the media.. and Jose C and his run ins w/ speeding and domestic abuse should cost him at least a double standard of 50 extra bombs. The convese to this was media darlene and all aroung good-guy Kirby Puckett who certainly was helped along by those that liked him

rfs

rfs



53JKaye
      Sustainer
      ID: 4711592917
      Tue, Aug 14, 17:26
Is there any difference between a DH and a horrible defensive player with great offensive stats? The guy who actually played the field probably has lesser value than the DH did to his team. Obviously, if the DH HAD to play the field, things would be different, but its not like everyone who plays the field instantly adds value.
54Blizz
      ID: 54721318
      Tue, Aug 14, 19:52
FGump: regarding your questions for me in post 27

Your first 3 questions are regarding Thomas being on the making the HOF list, simple explanation, I accidentally put him on my HOF list instead of my needs a couple years list.

About Alomar, the more I rethink that one the more I think he is deserving
About Larkin, I still dont think he deserves it, Madman summed it up well in post 40, about quality peers at the position

Mcgriff Baines Palmeiro should all make it when(if) they get 500HR or 3000Hits but the question was if theyd make it if this was their last year

Cone used to be considered dominant in the early 90's, I just wanted to mention him, I think hes in the same group as Mcgriff Baines Palmeiro

Someone mentioned something about it being a joke that I mentioned Ichiro, but I only think he would count if his Japanese league stats were allowed to count, other than that, I agree he is only a rookie

Sorry about taking so long to respond, I havent been home in the day lately, the weather is far too good, I havent seen a cloud in a week, thats just something that doesnt happen every year where Im from, Im taking advantage and going golfing now, so any new responses probably wont be answered right away


55Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Tue, Aug 14, 22:11
To be clear, I'm not voting for Ichiro. However, if he has a great decade of baseball in the majors, I personally wouldn't hold him to the same standard as other American HoFers. He didn't have to face the gruff that Jackie R. did, but the logic would be similar -- a famous player who was the first player to do what he did (basically, of course).

Once again, this is the Hall of FAME not the hall of stats. And IFFF Ichiro can put up a decade of great stats, then he'd have an argument. Needs 2,000 MLB hits, however.
_________________
The main difference in my mind between Belle and Frank is patience. And yes, that counts for a lot. But Belle had a couple seasons that rank as all-time greats. IIRC, he's the only 50-50 person in history (50 doubles, 50 HR's). And Belle had more post-season success. Frank had some great seasons, but I wouldn't put his top at Belle's top. Of course, he's been more reliable, and there's a huge OBP gap. . .

This debate is probably pretty moot, since Frank will come back and put some more seasons up.

I think Edgar has a chance. But he does have to put a couple more seasons up. Palmiero is a very solid first basemen; he's going to have to qualify under the Eddie Murray rule -- longevity and piling up the stats.
56Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 28059111
      Tue, Aug 14, 22:36
Belle will have a push for an important reason no one has mentioned: He had his career cut short. I think there is a sentimental edge given to guys who either quit early or left the game injured when it's clear they could have piled up more numbers "if it weren't for..."

And don't tell me sentimentality doesn't play a part! It it the main way the voters discern between players who deserve and players who don't. [It's also how the Veterans Committee worked]

pd
57James K Polk
      ID: 4592651
      Tue, Aug 14, 22:37
I agree with you PD, but it's hard to imagine many people getting sentimental over Albert Belle :)
58Sarcasmo
      ID: 52710519
      Wed, Aug 15, 19:26
Brady Anderson - in '99, he became the first American League player hit-by-a-pitch twice in the same inning. That's gotta get him in there!
59Razor
      Donor
      ID: 6731713
      Wed, Aug 15, 21:05
MITH - that's an error. It is supposed to read 92. Check the HOF monitor page.
60Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Thu, Aug 16, 08:07
Razor, that number 92 next to DM's name represents Mickey Lolich's number. The numbers for each player appear to the left of their name, not the right.
61Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Thu, Aug 16, 18:38
MITH and Razor -- Don Mattingly has a 134.0 HOF Monitor score. This is on a test that is used to try to predict who the newspeople will vote for. To be specific "This is another Jamesian creation. It attempts to assess how likely (not how deserving) an active player is to make the Hall of Fame" (quote from baseball-reference).

The Hall of Fame Standards test, on which Mattingly scores a 34.4, tries to measure the value of the complete career of the player. An average Hall of Famer has around 50 on this measure.

My interpretation of these stats is that they indicate that it is likely that Don Mattingly will get voted into the Hall (HoF Monitor), but that he isn't necessarily deserving (HoF Standards).

Of the 10 batters who had similar stats to DM, only Kirby Puckett was in the HoF. And clearly he was there largely because of post-season success, personality, and the fact that his career got cut short.
62James K Polk
      ID: 19351290
      Thu, Aug 16, 19:06
Was just sorting a few all-time stats after reading the back-and-forth over Frank Thomas. His career .438 OBP ranks 4th all-time (Edgar ranks 5th, BTW, at .426). Thomas' career .577 SLG ranks 10th all-time. He joins Ruth, Williams, Gehrig, Foxx and Hornsby in being top 10 in both categories.

Bonds could join if he continues his walking frenzy. He already ranks 8th in SLG at .578. His .415 OBP is tied for 13th, only .002 out of 10th.
63Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Fri, Aug 17, 13:20
JKP -- True. But sort by active players. Guess what? Frank Thomas is fifth in slugging, with a ton of high-quality multi-dimensional players crowding in right behind him. He is #1 in OBP by a solid .013 points (in front of Edgar).

Modern baseball. Hooray. As I said before, you have to judge players against their peers. And Frank has been among the best, but not long enough to warrant inclusion if he were to retire right now, IMO.
64Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Fri, Aug 17, 13:34
You know, here's another way to look at this whole question.

Each Hall of Famer will probably play an average of about 17-18 seasons right now (talking batters only to keep it simple). Each year, on average, probably 1.3 or 1.4 hitters can get elected to the HoF, yes?

Therefore, during any single HoF career, around 20 hitters will be elected.

Conversely, if you look at any single year, therefore, you'd expect about 20 HoF players to be playing (hitters, once again). Yes?

So, are the 20 people in front of the Big Hurt (offensively)? Remember, for THIS question, you don't need to worry about career totals up to this point -- just whether or not it's reasonably certain they'll make the Hall (this is why I'm talking about batters only -- pitchers are very hard to predict -- batters are easier).

My 20 HoF players right now (no particular order):

Gwynn
Ripken
R. H.
A-Rod
I-Rod
Piazza
Nomar
Jeter
Bernie (can you imagine only 1 hitter from the late 90's Yanks to make the Hall??)
Griffey
Mac
Bonds
Sosa
R. Alomar
Manny
Guerrero

Hmmm. That's only 16. I'd bet the other 4 aren't really locks right now (a few of the ones I listed aren't 100% locks, either, of course). Probably will be chosen based on longevity from the following:

Big Hurt, Bagwell, Palmiero, JGiambi, CDelgado, LWalker, JuanG., Chipper, Kent, and a few who might be able to up their level of performance, or get special consideration (like Ichiro).

Just the sheer volume of hitters at 1B right now makes it hard for guys like Frank, IMO. One more thing -- it's possible that this year we have more active HoF hitters still playing, since Gwynn, RH and Ripken are all about to retire. . .
65rfs @ work
      ID: 567211710
      Fri, Aug 17, 13:42
Madman - Nice post. However based on the offensive explosion of the 90's-00's which is showing no sign of slowing down and the incresed coverage of every aspect of the game (Internet, video, cable), I believe that your estimate of 1.3 to 1.4 hitter per year will rise to 1.5 -1.75+. This is just human nature in the age in which we live.

There will be "crusaders" for marginal HOF canidates to put pressure on thru the media. Not unlike MITH in his own small way LOL. Just kiddin' with ya MITH. I think we live in an age of excess. If 1 HOF is good, 2 is better, etc..

rfs

66Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Fri, Aug 17, 14:25
Madman
Several things to consider about your logic; "Therefore, during any single HoF career, around 20 hitters will be elected." So exactly what 20 year period are you referring to that will produce the above HoFers you predict? Alex Rodriguez is currently in his 8th season (6th full season) in the bigs. Assuming he plays another 10 to 12 years and in eligable in 15 to 17, I assume you are referring to a 17 - 18 year period starting this year? OK, but what makes you think players like Jeter and Nomar (and ARod for that matter) will be elected in that time? That would get them in in their first few years of eligability, when players like Jim Rice are still waiting today. IMO, it is somewhat bold to assert that Derek Jeter will have a more impressive career (as far as HoF standards are concerned) than Jim Rice and other "borderline" players that have been eligable for some time but haven't gotten in yet.
Besides that, you failed to include on you list players like Rice who are eligable to get in but haven't yet. You also failed to include players that are becoming eligable in the next few years; Andre Dawson, Eddie Murray, Paul Molitor, etc.
Also, in the 27 years of inductions back to and including 1975, the BBWA have inducted 27 hitters and the Veterans Committee has inducted roughly 31 (I say roughly because some of those names elected by the veterans are pretty obscure - I feel I was conservative in my estimating but some my want to check for themselves). Anyhoo, that's actually over 2 hitters per year. I know that the Veteran's Committee has been disbanded (reworked - whatever) but do we expect the decline to go from over 1 hitter per year down to .3 or .4?
Aside from that, rfs has a point that the number of players the BBWA inducts stands to increase over the years. Whether because of "the age of excess" as he suggests or the increased number of teams and thus players in the league or some combination of both and/or possibly other factors, eventually (certainly in the next 20 years if we're right) it will likely happen.

No offense taken, rfs.
67Razor
      Donor
      ID: 6731713
      Fri, Aug 17, 15:09
Bernie but no Bagwell? No way. If Bags puts in 5 more years like he's had so far (not a stretch in Enron for a 1B at age 33), he's a great bet. He'll finish this season with 350 HR's. So he should cruise to 500 in Enron. Combine that with his .300+ avg. and .410+ OBP and you've got yourself a HoFer.

And if anybody's going to mention Belle, they have to mention Gonzalez, the man who stole two MVP's in two of Belle's best years. He's all of 32 years old and will finish this season with about 400 HR's. At least two MVP's and good RBI numbers makes him a good bet as well.

Also, Barry Bonds told Gary Sheffield he should start thinking about getting to 500 and 600 HR's after Sheff hit his 300th. Whatever Bonds say is accurate so count Sheff in.

Stupid Helton and his stupid inflated numbers have a shot, too.
68Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Fri, Aug 17, 15:19
Razor I agree. If you're gooing to make a list of the most likely currently active future HoFers from actual available data, Palmeiro, Big Hurt, Bagwell, and Juan Gone (not any specific order there) all get in before Bernie, Jeter and Nomar. Also, I think Chipper makes it before Jeter and Nomar.
69rockafellerskank
      Donor
      ID: 4911539
      Fri, Aug 17, 15:22
.... umm, would this be a good time to bring up Mark Grace again?

rfs
70JKaye
      Sustainer
      ID: 4711592917
      Fri, Aug 17, 15:26
Chipper, Jeter and Nomar should not even be mentioned yet. Their careers have been 4-6 years and time will tell whether they truly are HOF players. Frank Thomas has passed his prime. If he isn't a HOF player now, he never will be. And I say he is. One decade of the numbers he put up are enough. Come back to me in 2005 or so, and I'll let you know how Jeter, Chipper and Nomar stand
71Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Fri, Aug 17, 15:33
Though I don't I'd put him on the list, he might deserve mention. Numbers-wise, he's pretty close to where I'd assume most people figure Jeter will be in another 5 - 7 years. Probably more RBI, fewer steals and less playoff experience (one area where Jeter has really excelled) than most would expect from a healthy Jeter by 2007 or so.
72Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Fri, Aug 17, 15:35
JKaye, I agree. Was basically just rearranging or reproiritizing the names that Madman mentioned.
73Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Fri, Aug 17, 16:04
JKaye and MITH, you are misunderstanding the logic behind the scenario here.

During any one year, based upon the assumptions I stated, you'd expect about 20 Hall of Fame players to be active. This includes rookies who will eventually become HoFers, as well as last year guys who are locks. To most accurately identify the 20 who are active right now, you've got to spread your picks out -- you've got to choose some who'll be elected starting in 5 years, but also some that will be elected 20 years from now.

Razor If Bags puts up 5 more years, then he's a lock. I said that he would be one of the players that can make it based on continued output.

Clearly, Bernie will need to continue to produce. But there is a lot going for Bernie that Bags doesn't have -- post-season success. Incredible defense in a key position. Premier AL centerfielder (arguably in all of baseball, actually), etc.

JKaye even using your standards of having stats right now, Chipper is much closer to HoF status than you'd think. He's going to finish this year with over 4,000 ABs, and will have been the premier 3B player in the majors for the last few years. His career averages are superior to the #1 3B guy in history through these 4,000 ABs. I don't know where he ranks on the All-Time HR for 3Bers, but I bet he's in the top 10. And climbing rapidly. This is his 7th year; in his previous 6 he had already compiled an HOF Monitor score of 89. Pretty unreal.

Jeter has an HOF Monitor score of 99 already. That's pretty unreal, given that he's just had 6 years in the league. Add to that the NY factor, and he's a virtual lock unless something very strange happens.

Nomar -- Also has a HoF monitor score of 96 already, and an HoF Standards of 33. Pretty freaking incredible.

In the sub age-30 group, these guys are as close to locks as you can get.
_________________________
Regarding Thomas, I think you would project him to be in a group of 1B that has a great chance. But if the Hall elects ALL of the 1B guys that are awesome right now, then it's pretty silly. Going into this year, he had the 6th highest slugging among active players, and the 7th highest BA among active players. Will he stay ahead of the rest of his peers? I think this is critical for him. And no, I'm not willing to vote in a clean-up hitter simply because he draws lots of walks.
74JKaye
      Sustainer
      ID: 4711592917
      Fri, Aug 17, 16:13
I wasn't saying Chipper, Jeter and Nomar won't get in. Chipper will probably end up as the #1 3B of all time. All I am saying it that both are still in the early stages of their careers.

75Razor
      Donor
      ID: 6731713
      Fri, Aug 17, 16:23
I see everybody is using the term "third baseman" rather loosely these days.
76Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Fri, Aug 17, 16:45
I see what you mean Madman, but I still feel, based on the actual average number of hitters elected each year and by other points presented that your list should be more than 20 strong.

Also, I disagree with your argument:
"But if the Hall elects ALL of the 1B guys that are awesome right now, then it's pretty silly."
How many is silly?
Bagwell, Thomas, Palmeiro, Helton, Giambi, Mac and Giambi is seven. Delgado and Grace don't make the cut IMO, but for the sake of argument, lets put Delgado in there too. I don't think it is "pretty silly" to think that all eight of those guys eventually get in at all.
Here's my reasoning.
Jim Bottomley, Bill Terry, George Sisler, Jimmy Foxx and Lou Gehrig all played in the late 20's and early 30's and are all HoFers. They were all active together for several seasons. They are also from an era when all of MLB consisted of 16 teams and all of them were elected by the BBWA except for Bottomley. Surely today, another era rich in 1b talent, we can make room for three more this time around, considering that the number of ML clubs has now almost doubled.
77ChicagoTRS
      Sustainer
      ID: 4324316
      Fri, Aug 17, 17:11
I think Chipper has a long way to go to catch one Mike Schmidt...you have to discount some of Chippers offensive stats because of the era. + Schmidt is the better defensive player. Schmidt in his prime was probably the top player in his era period...I don't we will ever say that about Chipper.
78Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Fri, Aug 17, 17:43
MITH --

1) I don't think Bottomley or Terry are legit HoFers. As you noted, Bottomley wasn't elected; and Terry stats were inflated in ways that we can only today really understand (with our improved understanding of statistics and of how statistics relate to the game).

2) Your argument appears to be that we elected 4 first basemen from that era, now the number of teams has doubled, therefore it's OK to elect 8. The fact of the matter is that the voters have never followed this logic, nor do I think that it is necessarily appropriate to do so.

3) Your hypothesis is that we are somehow suddenly endowed with 1B talent. I would question that hypothesis. I think the game has structurally changed, so that we will always have a large number of slugging firstbasemen. The advent of weight training, drugs, nutritional supplements, etc., all benefit 1b players as much or more than any other position. Further, to argue that we are suddenly rich in 1B talent requires that you demonstrate that we are richer in 1B talent relative to other positions. And I just don't see that. We have undoubtedly the best hitting catchers and shortstops in the game's history right now. We have arguably the best LFer, and a phenom in CF. We have a two time 60+ HR guy in RF that has become truly amazing. We have one of the greatest slugging 2B guys in history (kent) along with one of the most complete 2B guys in history (alomar). The only position where you can make an argument that we are relatively weak right now is 3B. But there, you currently have a lock HoFer (Ripken), and Chipper. Further, 3B was considered a defensive position for much of the game's early history, so you'll find that many, many generations have been weak at 3B. We're just relatively weak now compared to the days of Schmidt, Brett and Boggs.

All of this is a long-winded way of saying I don't see how you can argue that we suddenly have a surplus of 1B talent relative to other positions. Therefore, your argument appears to be that we simply have a surplus of talent OVERALL, and that we should lower HoF standards, and start allowing more hitters in in the future.

And I think that's a separate debate. I was using my interpretation of what current HoF standards are -- and that is to be a pre-eminent player at your position for an extended period of time, and also be a pre-eminent player within the historical context of the game. Each of those 1B guys can do the latter, thus each individually might get in. But the odds of all achieving that status are slim; and, indeed, if all actually do achieve that status, then I think by definition, not all are actually HoFers. That would simply be an argument that we have indeed suffered dramatic offense inflation.

To prove that roughly 30% of current players in a position deserve to be in the HoF is a pretty tough task, and I think you have to do more than to argue that they are just piling up unbelievable offensive numbers.

BTW, while we are on 1B guys, McGriff is going to have a case, too, believe it or not. He's got a great chance of hitting the 500 HR plateau in the next couple of years. AND, a few of his best years came before the offensive explosion.
79Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Fri, Aug 17, 17:49
Chicago TRS -- I agree that Schmidt was probably the better player in reality. But I am saying that Chipper's stats are actually better than his at the moment, and may be by the time they are done. The only other positions you can say that about are SS and C. And Schmidt was truly incredible. . . Regardless, Chipper has been the premier 3B guy for several years now, and he probably will be for the foreseeable future. Nevin MIGHT do it, but I just don't see it. Maybe a rook like Burroughs or something . . .
80James K Polk
      ID: 37651820
      Sat, Aug 18, 19:23
Madman #63 -- Post 62 wasn't meant to be an argument that Thomas should be a lock HOFer. I was just impressed that he was top 10 all-time in both SLG and OBP. I didn't expect to find that.
81F Gump
      ID: 67151221
      Sat, Aug 18, 21:03
WHY PUDGE IS PRETTY CLOSE TO A LOCK ALREADY

Chipper has impressive numbers? Pudge and Chipper are the same age (29). Chipper is ahead in HRs by only about 25. BA almost identical (.305-.303). Pudge has 40 more RBI and 30 more Rs scored.

Pudge plays likely THE hardest defensive position and may be the best C of all time defensively. With offensive numbers that are in the same ballpark as the best 3B of his era (and 3B is an OFFENSIVE player's position), he has the potential to eventually be regarded as THE BEST all-around catcher that ever played.

And he is more than 3 years younger than Piazza, so he has time on his side to surpass anything Piazza does offensively as a Catcher. It is possible that he maybe becomes the best OFFENSIVE C of all-time, as well as the best DEFENSIVE C of all-time. As SW players know, the last few years he has certainly been Piazza's equal (and maybe even better than Piazza) as an offensive choice for C.
82 The Pagan Baby
      ID: 26641117
      Mon, Aug 20, 19:42
I'm sadden when I see some of the names being mentioned. The HOF is a joke. Yogi Berra got up at a meeting of baseball bigwigs one year and said his friend Phil Rizzuto should be in the HOF. Everyone loves Yogi so next election "The Scooter" got in. His numbers are nowhere near close. Now everyone says Phil's in and my guy's numbers are comparable to his. Now you've got execs, reporters, and broadcasters in the HOF. Most of the voters never played the game. They even have players that should have been given a chance in the HOF. Nothing against Negro League players but they should have their own HOF and be very proud of it. What about Japanese players from 1940-45? I'm sure they had some great players but they didn't play in the MAJOR LEAGUES. Should we overlook that fact or should Japan have it's own HOF? When will they start electing players from the women's league? They were never given a serious consideration regardless of their talents.
I believe there are way too many players in the HOF. I feel only players (retired or active) that have appeared in 2000 games should have a vote. They should have a two tier system. Each year three players are voted in as ALL STARS. Each year only one player can enter the HOF. He would be selected from the existing list of All Stars.

You guys are talking about 20+ active players making it into the HOF. WHEN I WAS A BOY the HOF was only 30-35 years old and pro baseball as we know it was about 90 yrs old. There were only about 60 men in the HOF. No one argued should Ty Cobb or Christie Matthewson be in the HOF. If anyone can argue against someone then they very probably don't belong. This culture wants to give things to people they haven't earned. I'm not saying that Kenny Boyer, Rickey Henderson, or Cal Ripken Jr weren't very good players but they don't compare to Willie Mays, Bob Gibson, and Nolan Ryan. I hear "informed" people say Don Sutton or Frank Thomas should be in the HOF. They never saw a stadium get quiet when Hank Aaron batted or Gibby and Warren Spahn squared off in a pitcher's duel. The world stopped. Kenny, Rickey, and Cal can be recognized as All Stars of the game. Let's reserve the HOF for the very best 100 players of each century. Let's no cheapen the honor. I'll get off my soap box now.
83 Mark L
      Leader
      ID: 4444938
      Mon, Aug 20, 20:24
Anyone who thinks that Rickey Henderson's credentials as a Hall of Famer are in any way dubious has cast grave doubt on each and every other opinion that he or she cares to express.
84Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Mon, Aug 20, 20:51
Mark L -- yeah. I would totally agree with that assessment. I do feel the urge to pile on. Hopefully it won't lessen the impact of your most cogent and concise argument. . .

Rickey has a great argument to be the #1 lead-off hitter of All-Time. Have you seen the SB All-Time leaderboard? Remember how he could just disrupt a game back in the 1980's? You talk about fans getting silent -- what about when ptichers go beserk because you're dancing around and stealing second and then third and then scoring on a popup to short right field?

If you argue that Rickey is NOT one of the top 100 players of last century, then who would YOU choose as the best lead-off hitter of All-Time? Brock? Wills? I think Rickey is right in that group and better than, actually.

Cal Ripken is an even bigger lock that Rickey, IMO, if that is possible. He is arguably the greatest SS of All-Time. Personally, I would rank him #2, but I can see how some would put him at the top. In his prime -- which lasted a very long time -- he totally revolutionized the game. Cal paved the way for A-Rod and the current wave of larger short-stops who could hit. It's hard to understand how great he was in, say, 1983 or 1991. No, he's no Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron. But Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron didn't play shortstop in the 1980's either. You can't argue that Hank Aaron was a better hitter than Ripken and consider the case closed. You have to judge Ripken considering the TOTAL contribution he made to the team. And a hitter and fielder like Ripken from the SS position is every bit as valuable as some of the greatest players of all-time at other positions.

And I should point out that you criticize the idea that there are 20 active HoF players. This is the historical number of elected HoF players that are active in any given year.

I won't argue for Ken Boyer to be in the Hall -- he's not even close to the same calibre player that Ripken or Rickey were. Both Ripken and Rickey would even make your 100 player cutoff, IMO, so I'm not really sure what you're arguing here.
85Stretch Nuts
      ID: 232553021
      Mon, Aug 20, 20:55
To my pagan friend,

I generally agree with the spirit of your argument. The HOF voting system as it stands now certainly encourages alot of media-types to cast their ballots based on a "get my guy in" mentality. Voters skew notoriously towards their hometown heroes. And if the media are going to get a vote, why only sportswriters? Broadcasters, who obviously watch far more many games with a greater attention to detail, are probably more legitimate judges, really. I think the system could use some changes to eliminate bias. Also, with the relative ease of reaching previously cherished statistical plateaus these days, it would behoove the HOF to take a more discriminating approach.

But as for your examples of undeserving players, let me say that I don't think Cal and Rickey were good examples for you to use in your argument. I think you would find alot of people who would put those two guys among the top 100 ball players of the 20th century, qualifying them for the HOF even by your standards.

As for providing electrifying moments, I will never forget the nights Cal tied and broke the consecutive games record, hitting homeruns and taking a victory lap around the field. He has a definite flair for the dramatic - like homering at this year's all-star game. He is an obvious fan favorite and has on many occassions been the focus of every eye in the stadium over the course of his career.

As for Rickey, he's not as much of a fan favorite as Cal, but he's provided great memories too. Another image etched in my mind is when he stole that record breaking base, tugged it out of the ground, and held it up over his head in triumph. What a great moment.

Anyhow, the crux of your argument still carries alot of truth. I dread the implications of Jose Canseco's 500th homer some day in the future.
86rockafellerskank
      Donor
      ID: 48113316
      Mon, Aug 20, 20:57
Mark L- Sounds like you'd just like to lock the doors of the HOF and say that the only great players of all-time have come and gone?

Rickey and Cal are locks - 1st ballot. I resprect your OPINION, but your opinion will prove to be incorrect if you think these guys won't get in.

rfs
87Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Mon, Aug 20, 21:08
rockafellerskank -- It was "The Pagan Baby" who was making that argument, I think, not Mark L. Sorry if I confused the situation by starting my post 83 by addressing it to Mark L.

Stretch Nuts -- yeah, bias can creep in. But you need a 75% vote total. That's not easy. The Veterans Committee was easier, but they've done some good reforms there, I think, to make it more reasonable.
88rockafellerskank
      Donor
      ID: 48113316
      Mon, Aug 20, 21:11
...oops.... sorry Mark L. I was addressing The Pagan Baby.

rfs
89Madman
      ID: 29246911
      Thu, Aug 23, 14:54
An ode to Rickey -- ESPN Mag. Read this, and it's hard to argue he's not in the top 100 players of All-Time.
90rockafellerskank
      Sustainer
      ID: 766215
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 15:58
I guess Canseco is off the "maybe" list after his book and admission of steroid use, huh? Plus, of course, he fell just shy of the magic HR number (which needs to be revisited IMO)

rfs ®
91ChicagoTRS
      Sustainer
      ID: 3948815
      Tue, Jul 02, 2002, 18:08
This thread is pretty funny. I can't believe someone was argueing that Rickey Henderson and Cal Ripken do not belong in the HOF or are one of the top 100 players of all time?

Rickey...3000+ hits, the alltime leader in Runs, SBs, and Walks...the best leadoff hitter in the history of the game does not belong in the Hall? He would probably make my list of the top 25 players ever to play the game.

Cal...3000+ hits, the iron man streak, gold gloves, etc... What is he missing?
92blue hen
      ID: 30311814
      Thu, May 22, 2008, 16:22
Guess we better bring this thread back as well.
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