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Subject: US under attack - whats next?
Posted by: tduncan
- [47616279] Wed, Sep 12, 09:05
the day after is usually the toughest day after a terror act like this one. after the innitial shock is over, and you really understand the size of the tragedy, you really get this feeling that something needs to be done. someone has to pay.
the problem is, it's usually never happenes.
the world terror today is a very complicated network of organizations, defended by several extreme islamic countries (afganistan, iran, iraq, surya, libya and the palestinian authoroty).
the so called "war" against this terrorist is not a 1-action thing. it's a long, excrutiating gurilla war, that suppose to hurt the routs of this organizations and thir sources of mooney, wich are usually the counteris listed above. everybody know that afganistan is supporting Bin-Ladden organizations, everybody knows that Iran is supporting the Hizballa and the jihad organizations in the WB and gazza.
you don't figt countries here, you fight people. don't expect the US, or anybody else, to do something big in the next days. there is just nothing to do.
the solution for this situation is a consistent, long operations against the peolpe who run those organization. Israel is on the right track, with the assessnation method, but the problem is the world does'nt agree. we all saw what happened in south africa just last week. the democratic world needs to make a decision right now: is he going towards continuing the correct policy, wich included helping this terrorists, and not really hurting them in any wa, or is he going towards a war against this organization, and I mean war. I mean shoot a 14 years old kid of he is throwing stones at you, and I mean using jets and choppers to assesane this terrorists, evevn if there are more eople in the car. it's time to stop handling this people with silk glove. people are saying power is not the way, well I'm saying power is the ONLY way to end this.
my sencire sorrow to the american nation and people after this horroble tragedy, and you should know that the country of israel and it's people will be behind you 100% at all time, with every decision you choose make.
tduncan, israel. |
| 1 | sarge33rd
ID: 25818711
Wed, Sep 12, 13:07
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tduncan,
as I'm sure you are aware, I agree with you 100%. There is one way, and only to deal with terrorists. Courtrooms, lawyers and civil rights, serve only to provide an opportunity for the terrorist to strike yet again. (If Bin Ladin were put on trial in the U.S., is there anybody who desn't believe the organization would be blasting away at court buildings all over the country in order to 'negotiate' a trade? A cessation destruction if we return Bin Ladin to Afghanistan.) Death is the only proviso for those bstrds, and trust me...if it were upto me...death they would get. Slow, painful, agonizingly long and drawn out so that they might enjoy just a fraction of the pain they had inflicted.
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| 3 | Madman
ID: 68361122
Thu, Sep 13, 03:21
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you don't figt countries here, you fight people. don't expect the US, or anybody else, to do something big in the next days. there is just nothing to do.
the solution for this situation is a consistent, long operations against the peolpe who run those organization.
Actually, I disagree. I think the only way to do this is to fight countries, not people. Hopefully, after you fight the countries you can bring the people to trial. If not, the people will still find that they have their ability to wage terrorist war against us to be majorly crippled.
Sudan and Iraq helped Bin Laden in their attacks on US Embassies. Governments protect Bin Laden's bank accounts, and his bases of operations. Governments also have something to lose here -- their ability to govern. Whereas bin Laden and his followers don't care that much about death.
Your point that no one ever pays is reasonably valid, but I think it also misses the point. What we should be doing is to make sure that no dictator in the world harbors and/or facilitates an attack on the U.S. If all governments around the world withdraw their support for terrorists, then these big-time operations like this one will simply cease to exist.
Yes, you'll still have to defend against some car bombs and the individauls walking into a pizza joint and blowing themselves up. But at least against these massive population attacks, the ability of terrorists to carry out their dreams would be effectively eliminated, IMO.
And compare that to a long, drawn out war against the people doing the attacks. By the time you successfully arrest one of them, three or four more have grown up and idolized the martyrdom of the ones you've caught. It's a never ending cycle. But if you can make it very difficult for them to acquire / maintain resources, then you can effectively eliminate their ability to wage expensive attacks (like this one).
At least it's a solution that's only been tried once before -- when we basically convinced Libya to leave the terrorism gig. For awhile, at least.
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| 4 | Harkonnon
ID: 50230315
Thu, Sep 13, 03:43
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Even if the level of terror went over the top, this does not whitewhash those who operate on a lesser level !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If the Nations of the World would combine their efforts to get rid of all Terrorists they would certainly not stop at the doorsteps of the Israeli Government !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
tduncan
Your hypocrisy makes me sick to the stomach !
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| 5 | tduncan
ID: 51830135
Thu, Sep 13, 05:48
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my hypocrisy?
answer me this simple question: wouldn't you be happy if the US army would have got to the people who are responsable to this actions before they blew them self up on the pentagon and the twin towers?
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| 6 | Harkonnon
ID: 50230315
Thu, Sep 13, 06:01
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I can tell what would make me happy, if all these people have decided not do it in the first place !
I would be happy if we all can get along !
The killing must stop ! Everywhere !
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| 7 | wildyams/katietx
ID: 3483513
Thu, Sep 13, 06:24
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Harkonnn - while I agree that we would all be happy if this never happened...it DID
Take off your rose-colored glasses and understand that the world we live in is not like that, and likely never will be...despite our wants
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| 8 | sarge33rd
ID: 25818711
Thu, Sep 13, 06:25
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Harkonnen, unfortunately, you are living in an idea vs reality. Isreal fights for its very existence daily. Surrounded by nations who have sworn an oath to destroy both the Israeli govt and its peoples. Preemptive strikes by Isreal are not terroristic in nature, they are defensive. Thank-you Isreal for your 1980's preemptive strike on the Iraqi nuclear power plants. That one gesture may well have saved thousands upon thousands of lives, as w/o it, Saddam most likely would have had nuclear capability in 1990 when he invaded Kuwait.
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| 9 | steve houpt
ID: 208461016
Thu, Sep 13, 06:28
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What do you suggest - ask them to please not do this again.
Some people you can't reason with and the WHOLE world would be better without them.
Then, maybe some of the killing will stop.
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| 10 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 4016286
Thu, Sep 13, 06:42
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did you see that fat bastard woman with glasses making that tipical outcry??....well, it makes me feel like if there's a lot of people there that deserves to be sent to hell, without any doubt.
They hate our culture so much, but in every photo or video you can see a pepsi's box, or a playstation, or a sony radio......they're simply incoherent with their own ideology, they haven't an ideology, they just want a reason to attack us, they just want a reason to express their fanatism, and in this situation the only word they'll understand is: destruction.....it's never a good thing, but there are problems you can't resolve without, and indeed the most you wait more arms they can obtain......praying that they don't get the bomb.
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| 11 | Harkonnon
ID: 50230315
Thu, Sep 13, 06:50
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to all of you
well this thing is taking a turn that is not right
I basically said in the first place that if someone should be mum about all this it's Israel, as a good part of this worldwide escalation of violence can be addressed to their behaviour since Sharon is in charge. So much for the hypocrisy on tduncan's part.
I certainly do not live in an idea with red colored glasses etc.
My answer to this question of tduncan which is a truly rhetoric one was just about the only one possible.
tduncan wants me to bite on the idea of preemptive killing so he asked the question like he did.
killing is not the solution, never is, never will be.
but to play through your ideas preemptive killing
how much preemptive killing will stop the terrorism ?
the guys that committed this terrible killing ?
well they will send 20 others
just Bin laden (if he is behind it, which I believe) ?
the 10 people closest to him
or 100 ?
or 1000 ?
a million ?
the whole islamic world ?
anyone that ever said a bad thing about the USA ?
as a German (better European) you can imagine this is a pattern I encountered before
There is no question the persons responsible for terrorism must be disabled, but preemptive killing is not the way to do it.
Don't let the Terror drag us down to their low tactics !
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| 12 | Catfish
Sustainer
ID: 20557322
Thu, Sep 13, 08:04
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Like everyone else, I've spent the last few days glued to a tv whenever possible. The US parent company of my employer lost about 500 people in the North Tower. I cannot begin to imagine what families are suffering.
Mostly I flipped between CNN and CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation). It's been very educational to see glimpses of non-US coverage of this event and learn more from the international analysis.
I'm not going to address the horror, tragedy, loss, and sadness, which have all been so eloquently addressed here already. Nor am I going to get into revenge, retribution, or any discussion that inevitably leads to loss of more life.
But as citizens of the USA begin to put their lives back together again, I would hope they will at least do this: make sure they learn a lot more about how their foreign policies affect citizens of other countries. At a time like this, it is only natural to turn inwards and create further defences. Please, however reprehensible these attacks were, take time to learn the world views of other countries.
Many people in many countries support the US -- Canadians right now are flocking to assist US citizens stranded at airports, to give just a small local example -- but the entire world does not love the USA unconditionally.
If you provide weapons to one country in its war with another ... if you apply sanctions to an already poor country ... if you conduct a Gulf War in which you attempt to convince your citizens that "only military targets were attacked", you will create enemies. Nothing justifies the attacks -- and it's painful to think this way -- but as one non-US military defence analyst said last night, there is a sense among some that chickens have come home to roost.
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| 13 | WiddleAvi
ID: 9830119
Thu, Sep 13, 08:23
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Harkonnon - I cannot believe you say that Israel is responsible for an escalation of worldwide violence. Israel is in a fight for it's existance. Look at a frieken map and look at how big Iraq, Iran, Egypt are and then look at Israel. It's almost like a needle in a haystack. Israel is fighting to keep it's little country. Can you imagine what America would be like if we were a small country surrounded by Russia during the cold war ?? Besides for having to worry about regular security they have on top of that suicide bombers attacking them on a regular basis. Can you believe that the famalies of the terrorists who did the act 2 days ago are probally getting money for what their sons/husbands did ?? Last night on CBS they showed an interview from a couple of months ago of Bin Ladins teacher. He said that the white house is an easy target and the interviewer didn't believe him. He said in America people are afraid to die but they would have no problem finding people to die. In his words "For the cause, Finding people is not a problem". These people have no value of life. America must strike back with it's full power. Not just for revenge but to let other terrorists know that doing any terrorist acts will wipe them ALL, not just the suicice bomber, from the face the earth. These people arn't afraid of dying, you think they are afraid of being brought here to stand trial and face a life term in jail ?? There is ONLY ONE WAY to stop terrorism from happening....Kill whoever is connected to a terrorist organization. The good thing that I have been hearing on the news is that in the news conferances it seems like that is what america will do, Attack Terrorism worldiwde and not only those who did this.
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| 14 | Cleveland Fan
Donor
ID: 294172211
Thu, Sep 13, 08:34
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I heard on the news this morning that even if bin Laden were killed, people are already in line to take over his rein of terror. Does our government know who these people are? I feel like we are being kept in the dark on many things.
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| 15 | Harkonnon
ID: 50230315
Thu, Sep 13, 08:55
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widdle avi
maybe you missed me, maybe this was misunderstandingly written.
While the terror attack on the Usa was the latest and certainly the biggest incident of Terror (hopefully the last !), I referred to general escalation of violence especially in the Middle East !
no way I said Israel caused the attack on the USA !
but as you may know almost all European governments (and I agree with them) condemn the Tactics employed by Sharon and at the same time they condemn the Tactics by the Palastinians. There is no right side here. The killing must stop before Europe takes any active role in negotiations. (This is not only my view but the European governments stance as well)
I just said to tduncan it is hypocrytical to leak fuel into the fire if you are already under some scrutiny as well. So better be silent on that subject !
This may not be the American view on things but the European one.
let's all hope the World will take a turn for the good !
btw latest News Indicate that Bin Laden (if evidence is there) will be disabled (handed over ?) without a single round of ammunition fired. While I don't think this will be the End of Terror it is a big step in the right direction, if these people have nowhere to hide they have (hopefully) no place to plan anything.
before you jump all over me again, this does not mean I think there should be a severe punishment for him and all involved !
Hopefully we can say tomorrow Biggest Danger disabled, let's go for the next one !
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| 16 | Xman
ID: 3283911
Thu, Sep 13, 09:18
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I knew 5 people who worked in the first tower. 4 have been located and pronounced fine. The other is still missing and the hope for his survival at this point is slim.
This morning i was talking with my wife about retaliation. I truly believe that we need to wipe out Afgahnistan. My exact words were, "Make that place into a Parking Lot." She agrees with me to a point but would rather see us find out excaly who did it and punish them individually. I look back at our history and a vicious and chaotic bombing is the only thing that these people will understand.
Of course terrorism will never be stopped but it can be slowed. In the 80's when Khadafi was out #1 terrorist, we bombed him, killed his son and have not heard anything from him. 90's Saddam was our main threat. We bombed him and he has kinda gone away. Now Bin Laden deserves the same wake up call. America will not stand for this type of behavior and someone needs to pay.
I have to go now, but ill be back to finish.
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| 17 | wildyams/katietx
ID: 247272010
Thu, Sep 13, 10:00
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I simply thank God that we seem to have political leaders that will NOT stand for any pussy-footing around. We need to have swift, unwavering justice.
The Afghan government is trying very hard to back pedal its stance on terrorism. They have sheltered and back bin Laden for years. It is way too late for them to say they have "him under control." Hand him over if you like, or not. That will not end our retribution...
As far as the European governments are concerned, what I have heard on the news is that they are solidly behind us. Anything else would be political suicide on their part. Of course, we could always pull out all those millions of $$ we are still pumping into the European economies. Maybe that will wake them up to the fact that we have supported them, and it is time for them to do the same.
I seem to remember that we helped rebuild Europe after WWII...or was that just a dream?
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| 18 | Roo
ID: 665497
Thu, Sep 13, 10:17
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Xman:"a vicious and chaotic bombing is the only thing that these people will understand."
Maybe that's what whoever did this said.
wildyams/katietx:"The Afghan government ... have sheltered and back bin Laden for years."
Both "90's main threat" Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden have been US allies in the past.
As Catfish says: "If you provide weapons to one country in its war with another ... if you apply sanctions to an already poor country ... if you conduct a Gulf War in which you attempt to convince your citizens that "only military targets were attacked", you will create enemies.
The way to ensure terrible events such as this are never repeated is not perpetrating equally terrible events on equally innocent people elsewhere.
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| 19 | steve houpt
ID: 208461016
Thu, Sep 13, 10:32
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Where does this YOU conducted a Gulf War. I thought there was a coalition that conducted the Gulf War. Just because we had to provide most of the fire power, does not mean WE conducted the Gulf War. And why was there a Gulf War?
And it depends on what your definition of 'military targets' are.
If my government stuck me and a bunch of kids in the Pentagon, is it still a military target?
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| 20 | sarge33rd
ID: 25818711
Thu, Sep 13, 10:41
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The European Gov'ts yesterday Invoked Chapter 5 of the Washington Treaty, (NATO Alliance) This is essence states that any attack upon any one member nation by an entity from outside the alliance, shall be construed, treated and responded to, as if the entire alliance had been subjected to said attack. OK, now what does that mean? In order for the ENTIRE alliance to have been subject to an attack in a literala sense, would require the deployment of a massive military machine. There is only one way to respond to that. Hence, since the alliance is treating this is though thats exactly what happened, GUESS WHAT?! It's wartime people. Negotiations will beminimal...something along the lines of..."Well, are you going to give him to us, or do we have to come and get him?" THERE is the sum total of the negotiation process. After that, further negotiations will consist of armed flights, artillery, Naval bombardment, ground invasion, etc etc etc.
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| 21 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 28861216
Thu, Sep 13, 10:48
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Roo and Hark, I have to apologize on behalf of us Americans. I think, quite frankly, that the problem can be traced to the fact that we just don't take to terrorism very well. Probably our lack of exposure to it. Maybe just a bit of arrogance. But whoever planned the attack Tuesday also is not aware that we don't handle it well, are are less apt to play by the rules.
If bin Laden is behind this, he's spent a lifetime in terrorist activities, and is used to his target acting in certain ways. The rules have changed now, however, and there won't even be low hills after the US gets done with his area of Afghanistan if he's at all responsible.
I'm heartened by early indications of full Afghani cooperation. I think they realize they have hot property and the best way to save their country is to open their doors.
pd
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| 22 | Harkonnon
ID: 50230315
Thu, Sep 13, 11:00
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wildyams/katietx
This was not Attack on the USA, this was an attack on us Human Beings and it does not matter if these idiots attacked New York, Paris Tokio or Baghdad.
Therefore this is not a matter of standing behind one, it is a Process of Mankind gathering to prevent this will ever happen again ! anywhere !!!
But the way to do it and has yet to be determined !
But in no way European countries and I am sure the USA will not either condone any mindless killing of innocent people.
It seems to be certain that Bin Laden is in Afghanistan and he is maybe backed by the Taliban Regime, but how many average people in Afghanistan do even know about this, let alone who this guy is in the first place ?
We are not talking about a high tech country here, just the opposite the Taliban destroyed almost all technology to achieve their plan to build a "pure" Islamic country (whatever that is !) So what would a bombing of Afghanistan do ?
World Pressure is on them to hand out Bin Laden right now and signs are they will give in. Otherwise I don't think anyone has a problem if troops go in there to get the guilty ones.
But make no mistake this will not be easy as the Red Army has marched into Afghanistan 1980 and could not bring down the Mudschahedin for years. Since Bin laden was a very active member back then he certainly knows a few things how to hide and what to do. So I think the best way to get him is a political one.
(finally I can only hope Bin Laden is the guilty part, since We all obviously have decided so. I do not even want to imagine what happens if it is someone else and all efforts are wasted on the wrong person)
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| 23 | El Tel
ID: 54891210
Thu, Sep 13, 11:00
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As a Brit (and a European)I am disappointed and upset by the condescending tone of post 17.I hope and believe that your line of argument is not the one that Bush is using in his negotiations with NATO leaders.We are neither your servants nor your economic dependants.We are your allies and friend with a long-standing special relationship.Of course we are shoulder to shoulder with you.For God's sake,Home Secretary Staw announced this morning that 5-600 of the missing at WTC are UK citizens.Political suicide is an unfortunate choice of phrase:we will trust our Government to act swiftly and decisively in the interests of the Western world,which is why Parliament has been recalled. Please USA, be smart,be patient and get the appropriate job done(when what that is has been established).We need a response that is not barbaric,but one that will be condign with the pain America has suffered.One that we all can subscribe to.As others have pointed out,please be cognisant of the circumstances in countries outside the USA before recommending anything too rash and extreme.I,and I don't believe I am alone,am quite disturbed by some of the desired actions proposed here on these boards.
El Tel
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| 24 | Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 4443038
Thu, Sep 13, 11:43
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Before anyone else makes a thoughtless statement like Hark's in Post #22 - "But in no way European countries.... condone any mindless killing of innocent people" you might want to review your European history. I think it would not be unfair to say that Europe has written the definitive book on the "mindless killing of innocent people" and it's incredibly demonstrative of the continued arrogance that emits from the Continent that someone from there would venture to lecture others on THAT subject.
The US has for some time now endevoured to take NO action with any international implications without first acquiring some sense of consensus from our supposed allies. However, this time the damage to our country has been too direct and too severe for us to compromise our security for the sake of consensus. It's time, for once, for our allies, and I mean those in Europe for the most part, to be with us or stay out of the way. We've made too many compromises for too long for the sake of their sensibilties for any of them to be a hindrance at this time of need.
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| 25 | Harkonnon
ID: 50230315
Thu, Sep 13, 11:56
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myboyjack
my remark was not at all lecturing, nor mindless.
That's why I chose European not German !
Believe me we all have learned the Hard Way what mindless killing can do and even more how hard it backfires !!!!!
Lesson teached us a history and only because we (our fathers) made mistakes in the past, the thinking radically changed all over here.
And like I said before we feel attacked just as much as you do and we want Terror to disappear just as much as you do. That does not mean we have to agree or join on any kind of action to achieve the goal.
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| 26 | Khahan
ID: 12432113
Thu, Sep 13, 12:10
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On a slightly different topic, I wanted to repost some information I posted in another thread. I'll admit, when this first happened, I used nearly the exact words as Xman. I said, "We should bulldoze Afghanistan and make it a parking lot."
Then I began educating myself. I found that the Taliban government is in control of about 90% of Afghanistan. However, I also learned that many citizens in that country do not want to be under Taliban rule. Unfortunately, the articles I read gave no indication as to the support population vs the resistance population.
But many citizens do not like the Taliban, do not like Bin Laden and think Bin Laden should be handed over, bounded and gagged.
That made me think twice about who we should react against.
I still think we need swift and decisive military action. Powerful action that will leave no doubt as to what the future will hold for any terrorists who even think about attacking the US.
My only question is, against who? That is a tough one.
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| 27 | Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 4443038
Thu, Sep 13, 12:10
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When was it that Europe learned this lesson?
Was it after the attrocites of the Crusades?
Was it after the Inquisition?
Was it after the 30 Years War?
After the Napoleaonic Wars?
WWI?
WWII?
The Holocaust?
The genocides in Russia under Stalin?
Sarejevo?
The genocides on Bosnia, Etc, etc, etc.
No doubt, Europe has many lessons to teach us - but I just don't think that the nations of Europe need to lecture us on human rights and humane ways to conduct national security operations. "Physician, heal thyself"
I don't think many Americans care whether Europe "joins in" - we'll take help where we can get it - but, basically, stay out of the way.
In responding to you Hark - please know that I don't mean anything I say as a personal attack, etc....Peace.
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| 28 | WiddleAvi
ID: 527362010
Thu, Sep 13, 12:11
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I really don't see any other option but for America to use force. They MUST be killed. It's like sending your child to his/her room to punnise them for snorting coke (I don't mean in any way to compare what happened to this). These people must be eradicated from the face of the earth. If they think they will go to heavon and us killing them is a reward to them then so be it, We know better. If we kill them and someone takes over in their place then we must kill them as well.
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| 29 | Razor
Donor
ID: 305102622
Thu, Sep 13, 15:30
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Khahan - whether the citizens of Afghanistan support or oppose the Taliban is irrelevant. They are just as innocent as those Americans that perished two days ago. Any individuals that participated or facilitated this tragedy should be punished and let's just leave it at that. I've heard some of my fellow Americans say "who would really care if Afghanistan didn't exist anymore?" I'd care. Let's exhibit some restraint and common sense and punish the guilty parties only. I hardly think all 25 million Afghanistanis are guilty. Or 150 million Pakistanis.
Some Americans are getting overly vengeful. Let's curb our bloodlust.
(I am not talking to everyone)
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| 30 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 38728300
Thu, Sep 13, 15:46
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Actually, Myboyjack, I believe most Americans do care that other countries want to join us. This might be our fight, but terrorism is not a particularly American concern, it's a global one.
WiddleAvi, we don't know better. Yours is a religious perspective that can neither be proved or disproved. Yes, force certainly will be involved, but we must not let more Americans be killed just for the sake of a poorly-planned counterattack. Let's let the military do its job and identify the targets and bring these terrorists to bear for their crimes. But don't for a minute think that this will be solve just by a lot of force.
pd
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| 31 | patjams
ID: 22858138
Thu, Sep 13, 16:12
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I think it's not the time nor place to get into this heated discussion over World History, but I just have to ask one question regarding this sentence from Hark in post 25, "That does not mean we have to agree or join on any kind of action to achieve the goal. When was the last time you saw any "European" Carrier or Tank lead the Americans into a battle? It's always been a situation of America "leading". America is the only remaining Superpower in the world and this is one battle your leaders will join. I don't know how much fighting will be required from the Allies though as I'm pretty sure there is enough distaste among American soldiers to handle that. True, we are allies, but when it comes to force, the U.S. military cannot be matched. It's also true that no nation HAS to agree or join the U.S. in this fight, but you can bet that after this tragedy there isn't one that won't. The World realizes that there is a goal that needs to be achieved and that goal is the end of terrorism as a whole. Is it a realistic goal? Nobody knows, but I guarantee we are getting ready to put one hell of an effort into trying to find out. The end of many more lives is near and that is a tragic, but necessary thing.
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| 32 | Doug
ID: 0737311
Thu, Sep 13, 16:16
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Ditto Razor, and it seems to me (from personal experience, not talking about the message boards here) that the most vengeful people when it comes to our military actions (yet isolationist in foregin policy...???) are often people who have never travelled abroad, particularly to less-developed nations. They've never taken the time to really understand, and so to them it's just one big "other". Most couldn't even show you where Afghanistan was on a globe, even today! (unless it was labeled, and then maybe 50/50)
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| 33 | Harkonnon
ID: 50230315
Thu, Sep 13, 16:19
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patjams
the last time you saw British and German Jets leading into the battle was in Bosnia.
The Tornado Jets have a device that makes it possible to find and strike Antiaircraft devices.
The first two days of the attack in Bosnia only the British and German Air Force were in the Air and later joined by US Forces.
Hark
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| 35 | WiddleAvi
ID: 9830119
Thu, Sep 13, 16:24
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I heard one comment today I liked. While 2 wrongs don't make a right (America bombing in retaliation). But Maybe a Second wrong could prevent a 3rd wrong (All Future terrorist attacks) from ever happening.
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| 36 | patjams
ID: 22858138
Thu, Sep 13, 16:29
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Well, I'll admit I did not know that Hark. However, I find it hard to believe that the Brits and the Germans have technology that the U.S. doesn't. Anyways, thanks for taking out the antiaircraft so we could get in there and do some real fighting. (of course I'm only kidding so don't get bitter)
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| 37 | Harkonnon
ID: 50230315
Thu, Sep 13, 16:35
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patjams
the only thing i get bitter about is the killing of so many people !
on technology
well hum not to get that wrong
Germans are known to have some special things in hand, but do not necessarily talk about it a lot ! :-)
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| 38 | Harkonnon
ID: 50230315
Thu, Sep 13, 16:39
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btw technology
a better known technology that is British
Hawker Harrier Jump Jet
also used in Bosnia and as far as I know the US Marine acquired a few since.
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| 39 | patjams
ID: 22858138
Thu, Sep 13, 16:39
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Touché
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| 40 | tomegun
ID: 3589611
Thu, Sep 13, 23:01
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Harkonnon, yes the marines have some Harriers. Who do you think made all the improvements that a bad aircraft useable. The US has there own products rights to make the Harrier. We use them as ground support for our ampibs via an assult carrier ie USS Leyte gulf and USS Saipan.
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| 41 | GothWalker
ID: 288068
Fri, Sep 14, 02:03
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Xman,
"Make that place into a Parking Lot." Surely you jest?! Do you think that all Afghans support the terrorists and cheer at the attacks? Then it follows that after Timothy McVeigh's bombing you cried "Make America into a parking lot".
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| 42 | Harkonnon
ID: 50230315
Fri, Sep 14, 06:11
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tomegun
this is not a contest on technology or national pride
patjams
... asked about the last time Europeans lead into a battle...
and I gave him info about the last time
and because he wondered that Europeans have technology the US forces don't have or did not have at the time, I gave him two 2 examples
fact is that the Hawker Harrier Jump Jet technology is British and unique as outdated as that plane is in other aspects since it's basically 30 years old
on the Tornado ECR system to locate and destroy antiaircraft devices...
did a little research and was astounded that only 4 countries in the world use this system
Germany, Great Britain, Italy and finally and really stunning to me Saudi Arabia
anyway the point is there will be some ideas and things developed in every part of the world and if they are working well being quickly adopted and adjusted to specific needs by anyone.
in this spirit let's put all our stuff together in an effort to bring down terror in the world
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| 43 | Lutefisker
ID: 3182118
Sat, Sep 15, 07:42
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The simple point to me is that this should not be about retaliation.
This is about prevention.
This is about making sure that this does not happen again or at least that the chances of it happening again are minimized.
Personally, this is very much like what one must do with a rabid dog. It is not about emotion or revenge. It is about necessity.
The terrorists of the world have made their point that the only way they will stop is by death. In fact, they seem to look for death as a means of achieving glory. They have made the point that they will continue to attack and kill regardless of any amount of talk or reason.
It is simply time that we take them at their word.
Simple logic implies
1) They will not stop until they have been destroyed.
2) We are demanding that they stop.
3) Thus, they must be destroyed.
They have given us no alternative.
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| 44 | SCHMEGGA
ID: 5281962
Sat, Sep 15, 07:44
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Lute,
VERY WELL PUT!!!
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| 45 | Catfish
Sustainer
ID: 20557322
Sat, Sep 15, 10:45
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So, before we destroy, let's make sure we understand who "these people" are.
On another topic, because I've not seen this posted yet, yesterday's rough estimate is that the WTC missing include 100 Brits, 100+ Japanese, 85 Australians, 50 Canadians, 20 South Koreans, as well as a number of Germans and Taiwanese.
Post 19, steve houpt: general point taken. However the US media coverage and public information campaign during the Gulf War was one of the cleverest public relations campaigns I have ever seen (speaking as a PR professional). It was also extremely misleading. I have heard street interviews this week that tell me US citizens still remember it well, and still believe that US jets only attacked military targets and didn't kill civilians! International coverage of the same War provided alternative views including cogent analysis of US media coverage. That's part of my point, and I see Roo and others posting links to international analysis in the same vein as my comments.
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