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0 Subject: Pitcher Repricing Change

Posted by: Guru
- [330592710] Fri, Feb 22, 2002, 17:22

Just posted at the Ultimate TSN site:

"Pitcher Price Changes. We are making a significant change to our Price Market algorithm this year. We will be basing the daily Pitcher price changes based on the previous five days of trading activity, instead of the usual one day. This is an effort to smooth out the otherwise "spiky" price changes that starting pitchers experience because of their once-every-five-days playing schedule. Hitter prices will continue to move daily based on the previous one day of activity." [end of quote]


This clearly has some significant implications:

1. Randro-like strategies will no longer generate the "easy money" that was avilable in past years. This should place greater emphasis on efficient rotation strategies, rather than following the herd on stud rotation days.

2. Pitcher prices should still track the underlying, longer term buy-sell trend, but without the inter-start volatility that we've gotten used to. Hopefully, the overall price sensitivity for pitchers will be increased to compensate for the dampening effect of the 5-day lookback.

In general, I think this will be a good change.

Only the 50 most recent replies are currently shown. Click on this text to display hidden posts as well.
24rockfish
      ID: 531038288
      Tue, Feb 26, 2002, 18:35
ummm,suppose RJ and PM both open on 4/1 (suppose). And the schedule is Ari. playing (April) 1,2,3,5,6,7,8,9.... Bos playing 1,3,5,6,7,9.....they off a few days!

Over the first five days holding RJ would be much better than holding PM. however come 4/7 or 4/8 PM should go up and RJ go down. just a early randro thing that has RJ pitching at least a day or two before PM second go round.

will be interesting to see the early movements on these two. my first team drafting is skipping it,going with Penny,Ortiz,Millwood,Wolf and a cheap reliever (when I find him) leaving room to get RJ for his second start if needed. All subject to change:
How many guys opening with a closer?
25Stuck in the Sixties
      Leader
      ID: 12451279
      Tue, Feb 26, 2002, 19:26
Has anyone come up with an analysis of the impact of owning closers vs. starters as a result of the repricing?
26biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Tue, Feb 26, 2002, 19:37
Do you mean the new 2002 formula or the daily repricing based on the 5 day average, SitS?
27rockfish
      ID: 531038288
      Tue, Feb 26, 2002, 19:39
sixties seems to me at 7.13,6.60 and 5.75 Rivera,Nenn and Foulke are a bit high for openers. looking at a couple of cheaper options during spring thing. myself will decide last minute on jose or such.
28Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 3711402623
      Tue, Feb 26, 2002, 19:50
rockfish I might go with two closers, possibly three at first, depending on what I can find. Eddie Guardado is $3.26m and Matt Herges is $2.39m.
29Stuck in the Sixties
      Leader
      ID: 12451279
      Tue, Feb 26, 2002, 20:09
Bili, meant the new 2002 formula
30Stuck in the Sixties
      Leader
      ID: 12451279
      Tue, Feb 26, 2002, 20:11
Just seems to me that if its going to be harder for pitchers to amass points, maybe having a bunch of closers who will amass at least some points on a regular basis would be a solid option. Problem -- I can't do the math.
31Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 3711402623
      Tue, Feb 26, 2002, 20:18
After getting Ramoned hard at the start of the '00 season, my plan starting off last year was to go with 4 closers and to gradually switch the ones that weren't producing to starters. This gave me a good chance to keep up with points while sitting back to estimate who was starting off strong. I fell way behind. But I think there is some sound logic since I think even the best starters often start off reletively cold for the first few weeks.
32ChicagoTRS
      Sustainer
      ID: 58735170
      Tue, Feb 26, 2002, 21:19
SitS...why will it be harder for pitchers to amass points? All of the point/rule changes this year have helped pitchers and hurt hitting.
33 JEsse
      ID: 591162423
      Tue, Feb 26, 2002, 21:23
LEMMINGS O/T

People refer to the trading lemmings and the lemmings that jump on board.

FWIW

LEMMINGS do not commit suicide nor herd over cliffs to their death. This was a mythology that was created by a Disney 'nature documentary' in the 1950's where animal protection groups were not in force!! lol.

Sorry to bust this bubble for the general population... i too was a lemming faithful, churning out the metaphor of the lemming mentality. Problem is- it's not accurate.

Just wanted to give you some cocktail party fodder, or for the other party- something over the beer and chips.

jesse
34Khahan
      ID: 567232217
      Tue, Feb 26, 2002, 21:33
I still haven't been able to get a handle on this repricing thing for pitchers. Prices will be changed every day. However, it will include 5 days worth of trades. In other words, part way into the season, I buy Pedro Martinez. Essentially, he gets counted as being bought 5 times? I buy him on Monday. Tuesdays price change counts my trade. Wednesdays price change counts my trade. Thursdays price change counts my trade. Friday's price change counts my trade. Saturday's price change counts my trade.
Now, I buy him on Monday (see above) and sell him Tuesday after his start. So for 4 days we have offsetting actions. 1 buy and 1 sell counted again and again?
Sorry guys, but if I follow this right, the heart was in the right place, but the brain refused to follow.
I assume this is meant to offset buying a player the day of his start, seeing a $200k gain then everybody selling him off after his start and seeing his price drop $200k. Right?
Somebody please explain how this is going to work.
35Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 3711402623
      Tue, Feb 26, 2002, 21:44
Clearly, this allows for money train long term holds. We will still be rewarded for holding cheap starters having good seasons or good stretches.
36Ender
      ID: 13443221
      Tue, Feb 26, 2002, 21:45
2 things to keep in mind:

1) Price change is based on NET buys/sells. If I buy Pitcher A today and sell him tomorrow, then he has 1 Net buy today, and 0 net buys for 4 days, then 1 net sell (the 5th day after I sold him).

2) The actual amount of change is based on proportionate net buys/sells over the trading period. In other words, even if the exact same number of people buy him today and then sell him tomorrow, the total number of trades may not be the same, thus the price gain and price loss will probably not be the same.
37Khahan
      ID: 12432113
      Wed, Feb 27, 2002, 13:35
Ok, but still, in essence, we see the effect of any given buy or sell 5 times, right?
38Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Wed, Feb 27, 2002, 14:55
right
39deepsnapper
      Sustainer
      ID: 421144298
      Thu, Feb 28, 2002, 22:45
my head hurts already

I may actually troll for some c-losers.
40Peter N.
      Donor
      ID: 2011382318
      Thu, Feb 28, 2002, 23:10
LOL Roy, me and you both :-)
41Lutefisker
      Sustainer
      ID: 471532615
      Fri, Mar 01, 2002, 09:52
As I am seeing this... there will be a greater need for muted price swings this year than otherwise... Lets go over the most typical rotations

4 day rest rotation.

1- Buy pitches
2- Sell day after pitching
3- rest
4- rest
5- rest
6- Buy pitches 1 buy 1 sell
7- Sell day after pitches 1 buy 1 sell
8- rest 1 buy 1 sell
9- rest 1 buy 1 sell
10- rest 1 buy 1 sell
11- Buy pitches 1 buy 1 sell
12- Sell day after pitches 1 buy 1 sell

but now lets try a 5 days rest rotation or anytime there is an off day in a 4 rest rotation.

1- Buy pitches
2- Sell day after pitching
3- rest
4- rest
5- rest
6- rest 0 BUY 1 SELL
7- Buy pitches 1 BUY 0 SELL
8- Sell day after pitches 1 buy 1 sell
9- rest 1 buy 1 sell
10- rest 1 buy 1 sell
11- rest
12- rest 0 BUY 1 SELL
13- Buy pitches 1 BUY 0 SELL
14- Sell day after pitches 1 buy 1 sell

The implications seem to be as follows for maximum price gain:

You can expect to see little or no drop in price the day AFTER a start (since it is offset by the buys of the previous day) but you can expect to see a SHARP drop if the pitcher has a 5th rest day since on that day there will be one day of strong selloffs with no corresponding day of buys.

Also, You can expect to see a SHARP rise in the price of a pitcher on the day that he pitches AFTER at least a 5 day rest since he will have a buy day with no corresponding sell-off day.

These SHARP rises and falls will be even more amplified if TSN decides to not mute the pitching gains and losses since the general impact will be to mute the swings (but only by causing some other more complicated swings in the process)

So the new strategy seems to be to look for the starting pitcher that has not started in the last 5 days and sell the starting pitcher who will be having at least 5 days rest...

The Bizarro Randro lives on!

42Ender
      ID: 52438315
      Fri, Mar 01, 2002, 10:10
The problem with that as I see it is that most pitchers due pitch on a 5 DAY schedule. The pitchers that would frequently have an extra day off would be spot or 5th starters. I don't intend to rotate those types of pitchers and I don't see them having heavy rotation by others. Therefore there won't be much money to be made anyway.
43Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Fri, Mar 01, 2002, 10:16
The problem with that scenario is that is assumes the buys will occur on the day a pitcher starts, and the sells occur the following day.

That's not the normal practice, especially for heavily rotated pitchers. For example, teams using a straight Randro approach will buy one when the other is sold. As a general rule, price gains begin to emerge 2-3 days before a pitcher starts. So the spiky trade patterns you are forecasting are unlikely to occur very often.
44Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Fri, Mar 01, 2002, 10:18
That is, price gains used to emerge 2-3 days before a pitcher started.
45Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 3711402623
      Fri, Mar 01, 2002, 10:19
Lutefisker,
Another problem is that you are assuming that the masses will buy and seel pitchers on the days they formerly would have under the old price change structure. Assuming that the average SW manager is smarter than before (reasonable considering the game is no longer free), I think you can expet to find that most managers will be looking for the best times to buy and sell their stud pitchers, like we are and that there will be considerable experimentation, probably throwing most early season trends out the window. IMO, it is possible no trend develops at all.
46Ender
      ID: 52438315
      Fri, Mar 01, 2002, 10:19
It also forecasts 7 sells in a 14 day span. I'm sure we all wish we had that many trades, but alas it is not so.
47Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 3711402623
      Fri, Mar 01, 2002, 10:24
As stated before, it is probably a safe bet that many managers will start off Randroing, not knowing about the price change. I suppose initial buys and sells could be figured around this (how I don't know but I'd be surprised if a bunch of you out there weren't already working on it), but anyhow I doubt many managers will continue rotate those two blindly when they see it no longer yields automatic cash as before.
48Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Fri, Mar 01, 2002, 11:12
MITH - don't be so sure about the latter. Although Randro may not produce the automatic cash, a lot of managers will still think it maximizes points. If someone doesn't understand the concept of extra starts per trade, and that Randro only generates 0.5 extra starts per trade (and many, many managers will not understand that fact), then Randro will still appear to be the point-maximizing tactic.

But unless those two pitchers produce significantly more per start than the alternatives (which can happen sometimes, but is unlikely on average), it will be a suboptimal strategy - as has been discussed many times at this forum.
49smallwhirled
      Donor
      ID: 157582113
      Fri, Mar 01, 2002, 11:36
Let me add to this discussion.....I'm am one confused little manager, as everyone is coming up with proposals but nobody is really sure what's going to happen. I'm going to employ the vacation strategy on my teams just to see what the heck is going on.
;)

smallwhirled
50ChicagoTRS
      Sustainer
      ID: 5031911
      Fri, Mar 01, 2002, 12:01
I am basically going to go with the vacation strategy at first on my pitchers too. I am going in with the strategy of picking up pitchers who I think are underpriced and holding for possible money trains. I plan to rotate only the bare minimum at first (injuries, new P money train, can't miss matchup). Basically I plan on treating pitchers like we have treated hitters in the past and just hold them until something forces a trade. It will be really nice if we do not have to rotate pitchers to make money. I am still considering an early randro strategy on one of my teams just to see what happens but on the other two I will definitely conserve trades for efficient rotations.

The rules changes that increased pitchers points and decreased hitters points make it all the more important to use pitcher trades efficiently.


51beastiemiked
      ID: 17414316
      Fri, Mar 01, 2002, 12:08
The vacation strategy sounds good but just wait til one of your pitchers puts up a -50 outing. After seeing a boxscore with my pitcher getting bombed I never seem to sleep to well that night.
52smallwhirled
      Donor
      ID: 157582113
      Fri, Mar 01, 2002, 12:32
My pitchers aren't gonna get bombed, and I can assure you of that, bmd.

But really, will a -50 weigh into the decision of dropping a pitcher, probably...and that will be the ideal time for me to move into a guaranteed pitcher money train.
53ChicagoTRS
      Sustainer
      ID: 5031911
      Fri, Mar 01, 2002, 12:45
I normally will excuse any pitcher one or two negatives. All pitchers (or most) will have bad games I think it is important to stick with a pitcher through those starts. I did pretty well at this last year...not wasting trades moving out of every pitcher who has a bad game. Unless of course you have made a ton of money on a pitcher and you know he is widely owned and is due for a huge decline. I remember Guru had a chart a while back that showed pitchers rebound pretty well after negative outings and that the more positive outings in a row a pitcher has the less chance his next outing will be positive and vice versa. Not that I don't get pissed off when a pitcher puts up a fat negative but in most cases I think you are far better sticking it out with a pitcher rather than wasting a trade.
54Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 3711402623
      Fri, Mar 01, 2002, 12:55
Consider what a -50 outing does to widely held pitcher price, especially one that has been held for some time on many rosters, like Wade Miller from last year for example. In years past, there would be two days of sales following such an outing. A widely held player would see a tough loss. But that translates to 6 days of losses under the new system, not taking into account buys for his next start. How many people could we expect to buy into 'Miller' following three and four days of tough losses? How many of those who initially decided to keep him through the $$loss might get fed up after three or four days of losses and contribute further to the slide by droipping him then out of frustration?
Depending on the trigger fingers of the masses, pitcher money trains might not be able to survive a single poor outing. Thoughts?
55Khahan
      ID: 12432113
      Fri, Mar 01, 2002, 13:28
If I'm understanding what they do correctly, I'd have to agree with that MITH.
Like I said earlier, I think TSN's heart was in the right place with what they wanted to do. I jsut think the brain was out playing catch when tried to do it.
56biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 231045110
      Fri, Mar 01, 2002, 13:34
I agree that if a pitcher is:
1) heavily owned
2) records a large negative outing

You better have a trade handy.

How often do both those things happen, however?

Personally, I tend to avoid heavily owned but unproven pitchers, and I will do so even more this year, precisely to avoid the confluence of 1) and 2).

In general, however, I think TSN's solution to the near necessity of rotating two pitchers will work out just fine. Increasing the variation in strategies is always a good thing.
57Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 3711402623
      Fri, Mar 01, 2002, 14:03
biliruben, agreed. Clearly, if there was an obvious flaw, someone would have come up with it by now. I'm not totally sold on the new plan, but I'm certainly not knocking it. However, cheap pitchers on a roll are the stuff that pitcher trains are made of, and that does happen every year. Wade Miller, Kerry Wood and Matt Morris from last year are perfect examples. I held all three at length. Also, a pitcher does not have to be unproven to be widely held and toss a stinker.
58biliruben
      Sustainer
      ID: 3502218
      Fri, Mar 01, 2002, 14:40
MITH - I avoided all three of those pitchers last year (sometimes to my detriment - maybe that's why I like the solution so much!), but I agree sometimes a heavily owned Schilling or a Brown has a bad night. I'm not saying you can totally avoid it, but you can decrease your odds by avoiding the cheapie money trains where you think the pitcher just got lucky the last couple outings. Their new method gives more weight to talent evaluation, which may convince you to skip the latest money train.
59MyLakers
      ID: 32161623
      Sat, Mar 02, 2002, 03:16
butt
60Lutefisker
      Sustainer
      ID: 5925621
      Sat, Mar 02, 2002, 11:00
Ender... (post 42) most pitchers do NOT start on a five day schedule, but rather on a 5 GAME schedule. Only a couple of the top aces start every 5 DAYS regardless of days off

Guru... (post 43) Yes, my scenario does assume that most people will still buy the day before a pitcher starts and sell the day after. This is still the best manner to maximize points.

Guru... (post 44) EVen if the purchases are made in the 3 days prior to a start, those three days would count towards the players total buys while the majority of the sells would be eliminated on that last day. Thus the point as to whether or not the purchases are in the last 3 days or last day are irrelevant as long as the sells are still the day after the last start.
61RR41
      ID: 4811522716
      Sun, Mar 03, 2002, 07:56
How do closers usually fare in this game? Seems like all the discussion is focused on starters.
62Ender
      ID: 13443221
      Sun, Mar 03, 2002, 15:04
Closers are great when a team is winning, they stink when the team is losing. Basically if you have them at the right time, it's all good.

The biggest strike against closers IMO is they don't pitch enough innings to balance out any runs they might give up. If they give up 2 ER you're sunk. If a starter gives up 2 ER you're fine.
63APerfect10
      ID: 3257215
      Mon, Mar 04, 2002, 01:44
Lutefisher's analysis appears dead on...

Key Situations :

4 Day Rest -> 4 Day Rest
Little Fluction in price due to rotation

4 Day Rest -> 5 Day Rest
Day Prior to Start - $$ Loser (lowest price after loss, BUY)
Gameday - $$ Gainer (**Largest single day $$ increase)
Day after Gameday - $$ Gainer (highest price, after gain SELL)

5 Day Rest -> 4 Day Rest
Day Prior to Start - Small $$ Loser (lowest price, BUY)
Gameday - neglible gains/losses
Day after Gameday - neglible gains/losses

5 Day Rest -> 5 Day Rest
Day Prior to Start - $$ Loser (lowest price, BUY)
Gameday - $$ gainer (largest single day gain)
Day after Gameday - $$ gainer (highest price, SELL)

I can post my analysis if needed. If you still do not understand how to maximize your profits forget it! ;)

Beginning of Season Maximizing of Profits
Opening day pitchers should expect losses for four consecutive days following their opening day start, therefore their lowest price can be obtained the day prior to their 2nd start. The 2nd day pitcher will experience mild/moderate gains the day of his start. The 3rd day pitcher will experience mild gains the day before his start and moderate gains the day of his start. Also expect mild losses the day after his start.
4th Day pitchers will experience mild/moderate gains before his start and suffer very mild losses if any.

Therefore to maximize profits theoritically you should...

a) Have no 1st day pitchers, that will be heavily drafed, on your roster.

b) Initially draft 2nd day pitchers, who were not heavily drafted prior to the season start.

c) Partially Guru-rotate your first 2 trades in the following order :

- 2nd Day Pitcher -> 4th Day Pitcher
- 4th Day Pitcher -> 1st Day pitcher

Disclaimer
I have not provided my data, analysis or assumptions due to the lack speed of the computer I am currently using. If there is mass confusion I will be more than willing to post my excel analysis. When I say to maximize profits, I mean exactly that. To maximize trades you must guru-rotate therefore this technique may not be the best possible way to handle your team. You can figure out that part. ;) When I say 2nd day starter, I do not mean a teams #2 starter. I am referring to a pitcher that is scheduled to pitch the day after a heavily drafted pitcher. Similiarly for 3rd and 4th day pitchers. I have not looked at scheduling yet, but it could be possible to rotate between three aces in the first few days to maximize $$ gains.

I am sure there is mass confusion by now, so if you are confused, please ask by all means! ;)
64smallwhirled
      Donor
      ID: 157582113
      Mon, Mar 04, 2002, 02:36
Too confusing for me at 2:40 in the morning, I'll do the vacation strategy.
;)

But, really, the number crunching does seem correct.
65DanQ
      ID: 41241420
      Mon, Mar 04, 2002, 22:37
My Delurking message (after lurking for over 3 years),

One thing I've noticed a lot comments on is how the masses will operate this coming season. I was wondering if anyone was wondering how the "masses" will operate under the game cost structure? There will be fewer players, but on average they will be more active it would seem.

Was just curious how you think this will affect the new pitching pricing? I think once it is really identified how the system works, the price effect could actually magnify because of higher competition.

Was just curious if anyone else considered how the game price will change how players will operate.

(placed #110 last year in the guru ranking and lost my local division by less then 20 points last year, my best year ever)
66APerfect10
      ID: 3257215
      Tue, Mar 05, 2002, 00:13
DanQ, I think any and all changes should be minimal. You may not have as many lemming buys and sells but pitcher rotation should remain similiar. If pitcher rotation methods change, it will be a few weeks and/or months into the season.

Avg Pitcher rotation
3 days prior to start - 10% of total buys
2 days prior to start - 15% of total buys
1 day prior to start - 20% of total buys
Day of start - 55% of total buys

Day after start - 80% of total sells
2nd day after start - 20% of total sells

All of these numbers are estimations but are rather logical and should continue well into the season.

If a non-gurupie doesnt know the new repricing method, it will take a while for them to figure it out. If you didnt have the initial statement of how the repricing would be done and you didnt have the exact outline (as I laid out in my post above), wouldnt you expect it to take quite a while before you could figure it out? IMHO, it would be easier to figure out exponentially derived prices rather than the current repricing method. As the season wears on I expect a few players to notice these trends and maximize their profits using the key situations I outlined above.

---------------------

I just did a quick analysis on the absolute worst case possibility for pitcher repricing, assuming each person bought and sold their players at the best possible time to maximize profits (as outlined above). Even if this were to occur, those key situations and times I mentioned to maximize profits would still hold true. There are numerous possibilities and all of the extreme cases would only shift the point of maximization by one day.

I apologize if I have confused anyone. At times when I have an overwhelming amount of data, it is difficult for me to present it in a clear manner. That is why I'm an engineer and not a teacher ;) If there is confusion, I'm sure if I posted my analysis it would clear up a lot of questions...
67mr g
      ID: 15311150
      Thu, Mar 07, 2002, 01:15
i undstand your number on your avg pitching rotation, all but the 2nd day after a start 20% u would be foolish to trade the second day after a start. pitcher's if they are going to be trade should always be trade the first day after a start.
68APerfect10
      ID: 3257215
      Thu, Mar 07, 2002, 07:19
mr g, in previous years it would be foolish to sell the 2nd day after a start, but if you go back and look at a pitcher price changes, you will see that a pitcher would continue to fall for two consecutive days after a start.

This year however will be different. If you look at post #63, you will see that a pitchers price will continue to rise the day following a start in 2 key situations :

4 day rest -> 5 day rest
&
5 day rest -> 5 day rest

In both of these situations, not only will the pitchers price continue to rise on the day following a start, their price will go up more on the day following a start compared to the day of the start.
69cancermoon
      ID: 53248219
      Fri, Mar 08, 2002, 04:20
APerfect10, maybe i am overestimating people who will pay to enter competitions, but in my mind, the people who play the ultimate version would in general not be stupid enough to hold a starting pitcher till the second day, they will either sell immediately or hold for the next start.

There are two reasons why i think paying players would sell immediately, first to avoid losing any more money from sales than they have to, and second to get in on their next stud as early as possible to maximise profits for the next start.

20% is a pretty high figure, i doubt 1 in every 5 players will be that silly in the ultimate game, just my opinion, and maybe i over rate the skills of the competitors.
70Slow Stick
      Sustainer
      ID: 3237818
      Fri, Mar 08, 2002, 19:08
I played the Pay game last year, with the 1,700 or so other "Knowledgeable" managers. The pitchers pricing would drop a lot the 1st day and some the second day. Personally I chalked it up to either last minute trading that was too late or what I called last-hour-trading. While all or rosters were frozen at exactly noon the calculated price changes would also show up at exactly noon. The way I figured it they took all the trading up to a point in time before the freeze and did the pricing calculations based on those numbers. That way they could post the pricing changes instantly. Those trades that happened between the internal pricing freeze and the users team freeze were simply carried over to the next day's pricing model.
71Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Fri, Mar 08, 2002, 19:44
I don't think so, Slow Stick. TSN (and formerly SW) has denied that there is any lag effect, and when we've done sampling in the past, it has also confirmed that trades are covered right up to the freeze time. It shouldn't take any meaningful time for a computer to recalc the prices.

Some people just trade late - pay or not.
72loki
      Sustainer
      ID: 12253422
      Sat, Mar 23, 2002, 16:16
*
73APerfect10
      ID: 39143521
      Thu, Apr 04, 2002, 13:42
BUTT, I think some people need to read before posting further questions.
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