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0 Subject: OT: WWE

Posted by: Mr. Budweiser
- [32553612] Thu, Jun 06, 2002, 14:08

Just wondering how many guru-aficionados are interested in World Wrestling Entertainment (formerly the World Wrestling Federation).

I, for one, am a huge fan although it seems that lately the story-telling has become quite suspect. Yet, with superstars such as The Rock, HHH, Jericho, Benoit, Angle, Hogan, the Undertaker, Edge, RVD, etc., I'm sure WWE will always be entertaining to say the least.

By the way, I miss Stephanie! ;)
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274blue hen, almighty
      ID: 473133021
      Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 15:47
Question for this group:

Hypothetically speaking, what sort of wrestling coverage would you like to see on ESPN.com? Please say something that would maintain ESPN's "Sports Integrity" in your eyes. For example, should the content be relegated to Page 2? Insider? Its own section? Should it have standings? Recaps? Just humor? What do you think?
275The Left Wings
      ID: 1668298
      Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 17:49
Just headlines of big events, like "Undertaker joins Smackdown!"
Perhaps even a ticker of match results on the days with televised shows, such as Raw, Smackdown, Metal or whatever other show that goes on the weekend of which they keep changing the names.
276blue hen, almighty
      ID: 473133021
      Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 18:00
Quote from slashwrestling.com:

So wait a minute. Billy and Chuck are ACTUALLY GAY???? This whole time I thought they were two regular straight guys who'd been caught up in hilarious misunderstandings and innocent situations that looked strange when taken out of context! Well I'll be a monkey's uncle.
277E'ville
      Leader
      ID: 31782819
      Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 18:30
BH. I would think a short page with the same type of critique and results that independant wrestling sites put up. Maybe a history corner for nostalgia. High level critique like that could put pressure on raising the bar on wrestling vs entertainment (and I do use that word loosely). Reader polls on the last program (Raw, Smackdown, TNN, etc) would be good.

Can't imagine ESPN associating with WWE. The only upside would be that they could have staff writers take cheap shots at Vince for kicks. But why spend money to help him promote his product.
278Mike D
      Donor
      ID: 46721308
      Tue, Sep 10, 2002, 21:41
Funny stuff from slashwrestling, bh.

I would think for a site like ESPN to "cover" WWE/Pro Wrestling it would have to be a tongue in cheek thing. I can't imagine a serious attempt at it. A sarcastic approach, like the slashwrestling columnist did, would seem to make sense. If done the right way even die-hard wrestling fans would enjoy it. The guy who occasionally watches and critiques PPVs has done a nice job in this area.

279kev
      ID: 11438306
      Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 05:56
Tongue in cheek..... Billy and Chuck

Are we sure it's a tongue in cheek comment when talking about them?
280Tree
      ID: 599393013
      Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 13:44
if anyone read the spoilers on what happened at the wedding tapings for smackdown, it's very interesting....

i won't reveal it, unless the masses appeal for it..

Tree
281Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 13:58
I saw that, assuming you're referring to torch. Sounds like they've turned one of their dumbest storylines into something that sounds like great TV entertainment.
282Mike D
      Donor
      ID: 4372378
      Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 14:44
Saw it after seeing Tree's comments. Tree had me more interested by his post than the WWE has made me in weeks/months. It does sound good.
283Species
      Sustainer
      ID: 7724916
      Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 15:39
bh - I agree with Mike D. That's why a Page 2 or other 'non-mainstream' section of ESPN.com would be passable. Tongue-in-cheek, humorous angle would be the only way I think it would work.
284Tree
      ID: 22758146
      Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 20:12
LOL. thanks - glad i get better ratings than the wwf...i will say if you hate stephanie mcmahon, and like good tag team storylines, you'll like the results....

Tree
285smartone
      Donor
      ID: 29135714
      Thu, Sep 12, 2002, 11:14
i hate wrestling...
286Tree
      ID: 599393013
      Thu, Sep 12, 2002, 13:26
then the WWE is PERFECT for you!!!

Tree
287The Left Wings
      ID: 1668298
      Thu, Sep 12, 2002, 13:34
ROFL
How true.
288blue hen, almighty
      ID: 473133021
      Fri, Sep 13, 2002, 12:54
WOW.

A very good week for the Fed. Lost in the shuffle is William Regal joining the UnAmericans. 6th paragraph in post 271. While I'm still not a fan of the UnAmerican angle in general, I think Regal makes a lot of sense there. If they toned down the UnAmericanism a bit and focused on being a stable, they might have something.

Obviously, I was quite impressed with the wedding bit. I was getting annoying with the preacher, but it all makes sense now. Clearly, Billy and Chuck are faces and the Island Boys remain heels. And since they never actually signed with Raw, I bet they stay on Smackdown and feud with the Scheming Promotions, and are managed by Rico (a la Mr. Fuji switching from Demolition to the Powers of Pain if you remember that).

Chuck played a better gay guy.

Is Steph a face now? She dresses much more conservatively, and isn't so whiny. Plus she's the best looking "WWE Diva" out there. She's doing a fine job.

Did anyone else find it interesting that the wedding wasn't the main event?

I think the main event did some good things for Matt Hardy (love the new music), but should he really be in the Main Event? Has Lesnar already lost his bite? He's short and he can't talk to save his life.

RVD finally gets his chance. Big deal. I think they missed the boat, and I think I'd prefer the current incarnation of Jericho over Points To Self.
289Mike D
      Donor
      ID: 4372378
      Fri, Sep 13, 2002, 13:13
Demolition to the Powers of Pain--------the Fugi double-cross------great reference. I still have a Demolition Action figure (Ax? Smash?) and used to take it with me to Volleyball tournaments when I played for Regional Champion "Demolition" in the late 80's. Yes, I was motivated.

They are indeed trying to turn Steph face, and I'm glad it's been a slow turn, because she was so far heel before that anything else would have been ridiculous. Trish is better looking though.

Good call on Regal. He adds a lot to that group, right away becoming its probable leader, even though he is the new guy. His past angles over the years versus the US give credence to the relatively new angle we have now.

I'm clearly a mark for RVD, so it's sometimes hard for me to clearly discuss his pushes. I think there are a lot of areas where he can improve in the WWE, but the organization needs to let him expore some of them. As a long time ECW fan, he can flat out be amazing at times, but it depends on how he is used. I enjoy his matches and am always glad to see him elevated.
290Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Fri, Sep 13, 2002, 13:26
Mysterio vs Angle was a great match. I thought the wedding took too long before the Islanders came out. The Godfather & Ho Train was kind of amusing but I might have switched on the Yankee game if I didn't know what was coming. Anyone else find it interesting that The Islanders were chased out by both heels and faces? Just protecting their turf I guess. Just found it strange that any common ground like that would be established at all.
291Tree
      ID: 599393013
      Fri, Sep 13, 2002, 13:36
several important things happened last night, imho, in regards to the wedding angle, and other parts of smackdown.
1. for fans of tag team wrestling, last night was huge.
a. in Storm & Christian, we've got one of the most underrated wrestlers in the world, paired up with one of the most accomplished tag team wrestlers in wwf history. this is a good thing.
b. chuck and billy are now solidly faces, which is something that was missing from the tag division - a good, REAL, not ragtag face team.
c. the island boys have some serious heel heat, which is what happens when monsters destroy everyone.
d. the Guerreros - in the sim wrestling things i do at home (yes, i am that big of a geek), i have long paired up Eddie and Chavo, uncle and nephew. With eddy as a loose cannon vet, and chavo as a goofy "youngster", they've got a great thing going.

2. steph is becoming a face, and bischoff a heel. now, raw vs. smackdown is much more personal, and that, of course, makes it much more interesting.
this is why heels and faces chased off the Island Boyz - because it is now, genuinely an invasion angle, raw vs. smackdown. i find it interesting that WWF failed with a WCW invasion, and failed with an ECW invasion, but is actually managing to pull off a civil war type invasion.

and hopefully, as is often the case, storylines like this will give other guys more chances. RVD is over huge, but i'd like to see him eventually big a big contender for Brock's title. Tommy Dreamer, Raven, and Justin Credible deserve shots. it's hard for me to fathom that Justin Credible, one of the best mic workers and segment actors in ECW, is nowhere to be found in VinceLand.

my two cents,

Tree
292blue hen, almighty
      ID: 473133021
      Fri, Sep 13, 2002, 14:39
Good analysis, Tree. I'm not really a fan of either Guerrero, but I think that's a viable way to pull it off. Benoit is much better right where he is, and that match with Angle will make the PPV.

Ditto on Billy and Chuck. There's a reason they're together, there's a reason they are faces, there's a reason they are feuding with the Island Boys, and they are pretty passable in the ring. I look forward to seeing how it plays out.

The reason this angle is working is because it's a true invasion. I mean, what was the harm in the WCW guys invading? Everyone knew they were under WWF contract. And people were happy they were invading. Hard to be heels, given that.

This is literally a battle for pride between Bisch and Steph. And we're given to liking Steph at this point. Bischoff showing up on her show is an actual transgression that we want him to be punished for. And Bischoff will always be a heel because we've always hated him. For once, this is the kind of angle they should be having, and I bet it's been planned for a LONG time, probably the day they signed him.
293Tree
      ID: 599393013
      Fri, Sep 13, 2002, 15:28
i think it's been planned for a long time, and i'll bet Paul Heyman had a LOT to do with it. Heyman and Bischoff have serious, real-life heat between them, but Heyman also knows wrestling and storylines.

i believe heyman pushed for bischoff to be signed, and sold both bischoff and vinniemac on the idea, explaining the storyline as he saw it in his head, and using it as a way to entice both "enemies" to work together.

heyman, to me, is the greatest genius in pro wrestling history, sort of a mad scientist type. anyone who watched him in ECW, both on and off camera, knows this.

it amazes me, that 5 years ago, Paul, Vince, and Eric all ran different companies, all competing, and now they all work together.

man, i miss ECW,

Tree
294Mike D
      Donor
      ID: 4372378
      Fri, Sep 13, 2002, 15:54
The then-WWF tried to bring Bischoff in for their original invasion angle. Discussions were allegedly held, but Bischoff is a very, very busy man, involved in lots of different things. Recently read an article/interview with him (I think on WWE.com) that detailed his busy life. At any rate, no agreement was obviously reached at that point, so they went on without him. They've now tailored it a bit since times have changed a lot over the last year.
295Tree
      ID: 22758146
      Mon, Sep 16, 2002, 22:24
quick explanation needed...

um, so HHH is now the WCW champion? um, i missed some stuff while moving and all, and a few other things....

can someone give me a *quick* rundown?

thanks,
Tree
296The Left Wings
      ID: 1668298
      Mon, Sep 16, 2002, 22:30
Stephanie got Brock to appear exculsively on Smackdown, so Bischoff brought out the old WCW belt and simply gave it to HHH.
So, the undisputed championship is disputed once again.
297Mike D
      Donor
      ID: 348261319
      Mon, Sep 16, 2002, 22:50
LW, they weren't calling him the WCW champion before though.....it was just "World" champion. I think that's what "Nature Boy" Gurupie Tree was alluding too.
298Tree
      ID: 22758146
      Mon, Sep 16, 2002, 22:56
well, i called him the wcw champ, because it looked like one of Flair's old belts...it'll be nice when he adds the IC title to his collection after sunday night...

nature boy,
Tree

p.s. was i the only one who caught buh-buh's homage to dusty rhodes?
299Mike D
      Donor
      ID: 348261319
      Tue, Sep 17, 2002, 00:26
I hate it when I can't post because of the west coast spoilage. I'll get back to ya though Tree.

;)
300blue hen, almighty
      ID: 52058240
      Tue, Sep 17, 2002, 00:42
I agree Mike D. But I hated it when I got spoiled myself.
301Mike D
      Donor
      ID: 348261319
      Tue, Sep 17, 2002, 00:56
The message got through. Funny thing is, I'd have never realized it if no one had pointed it out.

The egocentric predicament: The world revolves around me.
302Mike D
      Donor
      ID: 4372378
      Tue, Sep 17, 2002, 09:33
Ah, now I can post this to Tree……HHH doesn't have a chance to acquire a second strap this weekend anymore. It seems RVD is now without a title. Could dropping the IC belt possibly signal an RVD win? Even if he wins, it isn't Lesnar's undisputed title, which seems to be the more meaningful one. I think. Hard to tell anymore.

Y2J goes into another PPV with no buildup to his match. Unless they totally rely on the past history of he and Flair, including past PPV. When are they ever going to learn though, and develop heat and interest for ALL the matches in a PPV? They rely too much on building main events, which often either don't need much buildup (Hogan/Rock) or won't matter how much buildup they get, they still will probably get overshadowed by other matchups (UT/Lesnar).
303Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 1832399
      Tue, Sep 17, 2002, 09:54
Mike D,
Re RVD and HHH, I assumed just the opposite. I figure RVD losing the IC Belt was done to keep HHH from holding two belts after a win over RVD. It looked to me like they staged a couple of upsets between those two recently to set up a convincing matchup at Unforgiven. That wouldn't seem necessary if they were planning an RVD victory, no?
304Mike D
      Donor
      ID: 4372378
      Tue, Sep 17, 2002, 10:42
On the surface I would agree, MITH. Their on-the-fly booking could be leading anywhere at the moment. But, they had to give this "new" (?) World title to an established star like HHH to give it any value whatsoever. Who's next for Lesnar, if he beats UT??? HHH has a way of coming back into the main storylines, and I'm sure his dating Steph has nothing to do with it (not). If HHH "loses" the belt to RVD, with interference from someone………(Lesnar? Someone else?) he saves face and goes on his new angle. RVD then has all sorts of new angles open up in defense of the title.

I know WWE isn't ready to make RVD their main man, but this would get him closer to the top, where they are lacking. This 300+ post thread has examined that issue many times over (lack of big stars). The IC title unfortunately seems to be way undervalued. It used to be so important. The #2 singles strap. Now, it changes too often and isn't given the build that it deserves, IMHO.

Will RVD beat HHH? Probably not. However, the WWE is still changing titles and angles rather quickly, and it is possible that it will happen here.
305Mr. Budweiser
      ID: 578371712
      Tue, Sep 17, 2002, 13:38
Been away on business for most of the last week or so but here's some belated thoughts/questions:

***Wasn't the committment ceremony of Billy and Chuck one of the greatest WWE events of the year? I NEVER knew it was Bischoff under all that heavy makeup until he said "3 minutes". A great expose of how a storyline should be run IMHO. Kudos to all the WWE writers/actors/entertainers who pulled this one off. By the way, although they could have used The Godfather even more, it was sure good to see him back to his normal self and with "all the ladies". By the way, can Billy and Chuck now get over as a "face" tagteam?

***Beforehand, the Brock and Hardcore match really looked brutal. Don't know how much was planned but it sure looked like each guy seriously dislikes the other.

***What has happened to the mystique of HHH? Once a great wrestler/entertainer---either as a face or a heel, it seems to me that, outside of his still-awesome entrance and music, the majority of WWE fans are no longer willing to support him any further. Certainly his connections to the McMahon clan is well documented but it seems as if the backlash to his once-immense popularity is on a decline of rapid proportions.

***RVD. Didn't they already main-face him last year about this time? What has happened to him now that wasn't evident back then? Did he suddenly become popular? No. Has his wrestling style changed? No. What then? Why lose the IC title now?

***Y2J. Didn't his main-face run begin about this time last year? What has happened to him now that wasn't evident back then? Is he no longer as popular as he once was? No. Has his wrestling style changed? No. What then? Why win the IC title now?

***Bischoff. You can either loathe him or love him but there's no denying that he does get a reaction from you. He was a great asset to WCW and now he's proving to be an even greater asset to WWE. I applaud him for his outlandish ways, his charisma, his believable talents and his willingness to work for Vince (and his daughter) through thick and thin. Good job Eric!

306Tree
      ID: 599393013
      Tue, Sep 17, 2002, 13:58
lots of thoughts here..

RVD - as an RVD fan for a looong time - check out his "matter of respect" series in ECW against Sabu - i like his renewed push. i think the push slowed because he potatoed a lot of guys in matches. also, wwf seems to do that - cena and orton are recent examples of guys who guy pushed, then held back...

either way though, RVD's push is back, and stronger than ever. I can see him beating HHH.

the problem with now is that the upper tier guys like HHH and UT are tweeners - they're not really defined well as heels or faces, and it's hard to get behind them.

RVD may be the most over full-time face in the wwf...they could set up a GREAT series of matches, with RVD and Lesner fighting back and forth for the titles. Paul Heyman likes this sort of match up. Until RVD suffered a broken foot a few years back in ECW, they were building toward a title vs title series with RVD and Rhyno, another monster like lesner...

the wedding angle - certainly one of my favorite moments in wwf over the past couple of years. it played out well, it built up well, bischoff was PERFECT in his role, and the locker room clearing - face and heel - to save their leader was wonderful. it played like an old ECW angle to me.

Brock/Holly - from what i've heard, it was a very stiff match, and a few mistakes led them to being even harder on each other. Brock respects the veterans in the lockerroom, but sometimes, when a work becomes a semi-shoot, you've got to protect yourself...

HHH - as i said before, people no longer have any idea if he's a face, or a heel. it seems to switch week to week. having a star as a tweener rarely works - i can remember it working twice.

1. in the NWA in the 80s, when the Four Horsemen were heels against Dusty Rhodes, Sting, et al; but were faces against the Russians like Ivan and Nikita Koloff
2. in WCCW in the 80s, when the Freebirds were absolutely HATED (as in, having stuff thrown on them and knives pulled on them) during their feud with the Von Erichs; but at the same time, they were also feuding with Devestation Inc (one man gang, missing link, etc etc), and the freebirds were the faces...

ok, my lunch break is over...

peace,
Tree
307Mike D
      Donor
      ID: 228101822
      Wed, Sep 18, 2002, 23:45
I never thought I'd see the day.....Pro Wrestling offered as a 1 credit college course. And in my home state! Check out this quote from the professor:

"We want to give first-year students the experience of scholarship," he said. "And this is a great way to do it. Wrestling is a reflection of American values. It's the purest form of pandering imaginable. All its officials care about is what will fill an arena."

308Mr. Budweiser
      ID: 24811913
      Thu, Sep 19, 2002, 14:10
Tree...Sadly I did not know the RVD or any other wrestler from their ECW days. (I'd like to hear more!) In fact the first time I heard about "Mr. Monday Night" was when he showed up at Raw last year. I still maintain that if WWE (then WWF) had it done right, the ECW/WCW/WWF Invasion could have been the single greatest storyline of all time.

I sense now that an Invasion of different sorts is being worked upon. This, of course, involves Raw vs. Smackdown. I have a theory but I need some serious help. How many of Eric Bischoff's Raw Superstars have links to either WCW or ECW? And how many of Stephanie McMahon's Smackdown Superstars have links SOLELY to WWF/WWE? With all the changing back and forth, I lost count. I'm proposing that all wrestlers connected in anyway to any faction OUTSIDE of WWE, should be relegated to Raw. And vice-versa to Smackdown. But I don't know if the sides would be even enough or fair enough to fill both rosters equally in talent.

Back to RVD.....though I'm not ready to proclaim him as "the most over full-time face in the WWF" as you have, he definitely has the fan support needed to push him to capture the World Championship from HHH. Though he doesn't give a lot of promos, the ones he has done lately have been pretty good. With time, he'll be more than adequate in that field.

As far as HHH goes, I do have a serious problem with his match against Jeff Hardy Monday Night. Since the match was for the World Title, it would seem to me that both wrestlers would put on a helluva show. Didn't happen. In fact, I really can't think of too many Jeff Hardy matches where he looked so bad. Missed spots, timing issues, etc. along with an obvious unfamiliarity with HHH, caused this "championship" match to really suck, IMHO. HHH looked no more prepared for Hardy than Hardy did for him. Though I won't count it as a disgrace (they did perform some spots well), I'll just say it was an off-night for both guys and leave it there.

As far as HHH and UT, among others, being classified as "tweeners", I couldn't agree more. Fans WANT to root for both of them but the mixed signals they get from them (almost every show) causes one to become unsure HOW to lodge their voice. As least with Kurt Angle, he can play a major face or a major heel equally well. These two probably could but for whatever reason, won't. (On a sidenote, when Angle soon reverts back to his face ways, instead of "Angle Sucks" what will the crowd shout? I suggest the obvious: "Angle Rules, Angle Rules, Angle Rules". ;)

Have more thoughts to share but my time is short. Will do so later.
309blue hen, almighty
      ID: 473133021
      Thu, Sep 19, 2002, 19:59
Angle is a crappy face. But he's the best heel they've ever had. Even. Including Ted Dibiase and Bobby Heenan.
310Species
      Sustainer
      ID: 304521510
      Fri, Sep 20, 2002, 12:57
bh - I have to agree on Angle. His only face value seems to lie in the whole "American Hero" image, like when he "saved" the WWF in the invasion angle. He is MUCH better as a heel, the arrogance factor weighs well, and comedically he is freakin' hilarious. The bald head/wig stuff had me doubling over.

I was also a huge Dibiase fan. I remember the very first Royal Rumble, where Dibiase "just happened" to come across the #30 pick and entered last. It was great.

Ravishing Rick Rude was one of my other favorite heels. I know we've reminisced about this before, but NOTHING was funner than him when he did this routine:

"CUT THE MUSIC! Now I want all of you ugly, fat, out of shape rednecks to sit down, so all of the fine ladies can marvel at the Ravishing One" (the memory gets blurry after he'd insult the guys, because I would always be grabbing my gut laughing....but I know you guys get the gist)
311Johnny Sue
      ID: 198172013
      Fri, Sep 20, 2002, 13:38
Sorry blue hen, almighty....Got to agree with Mr. Bud on this one. Angle makes a great face and he definitely is NOT the best heel they ever had. That title would belong to none other than Vincent K. McMahon, Jr. Nobody and I mean nobody can play the heel like Vince can. Let's face it: not only does he know exactly what he wants out of a character's performance, he's a pretty good actor to boot.
312Tree
      ID: 599393013
      Fri, Sep 20, 2002, 14:00
Angle is much better as a heel, because he is the classic guy who always seems to look like a buffoon outside of the ring, but in the ring, he's all business.

very few things made me laugh like the tiny cowboy hat he got.

as for the best heel the wwf has had, i'm not sure how you can overlook all the legends, like ivan koloff, stan hansen, larry zybyzsko, Superstar Billy Graham, Andrew the Giant, Killer Khan, etc etc, in favor of guys like Angle and even VKM.

there are very few guys today who stay in a role long enough to establish themselves. Angle and VKM certainly have great mannerisms as heels, but for me, they're far from the best ever.

Mr. Bud - if you can afford it, i'd strongly reccomend getting some old ECW tapes or DVDs with RVD, whether it be the legit commercial releases from pioneer, or more of the tv taping stuff from places like rfvideo.com...

peace,

Tree

313Mike D
      Donor
      ID: 4372378
      Fri, Sep 20, 2002, 16:37
Species, class post. You gotta stop by here more often pal.

I have to plug the Honky Tonk Man as a tremendous heel. He could sing, dance, and rassle, and the fans were all just jealous.....
314Species
      Sustainer
      ID: 7724916
      Sat, Sep 21, 2002, 02:27
Hey Mike D -

I'm around man.......I love the depth of the discussion here. Thankfully I just changed jobs so now I can watch some WWE on Mondays and Thursdays........until now I couldn't so I really had nothing to add to the discussion.

I too loved the Honky Tonk Man. He was SO over the top you couldn't help but laugh. Loved the shake, rattle and roll move.
315Tree
      ID: 22758146
      Sat, Sep 21, 2002, 10:37
for those who love the honky tonk man, it's a shame he's pretty much out of the limelight these days, because he's still colorful.

one of the reasons you don't see him in the WWE is that there is some bad history between him and first cousin Jerry Lawler. and with the exception of Lawler's stupid ass power play attempt with the wwf in regards to his ex-wife, lawler is a well-respected member of the lockerroom...

Tree
316blue hen, almighty
      Leader
      ID: 27048221
      Sun, Sep 22, 2002, 01:20
I'm too young to remember most of those guys, but I grew up when Dibiase and Heenan were huge. Dibiase just seemed so unstoppable, but that was because of money, so it must have been the mark in me that felt that. But he definitely had a gimmick, a good gimmick, and he played it well and was also a great wrestler. That's what made him great. Heenan was just so dislikable, but I'd put Dibiase ahead.
317Tree
      ID: 22758146
      Sun, Sep 22, 2002, 07:50
Dibiase was actually scheduled for a nice long run as a heel champion, but politics, like a lot of things, ended up derailing that...

btw - for anyone who cares - Ted Petty (most popular in his Rocco Rock character), who was a WCW and multi-time ECW World Tag Team Champion with partner Johnny Grunge, apparently passed away last night of a massive heart attack at the age of 49...

RIP Rocco, la di dadi, have a party up in heaven for us brotha...

Tree
318Buck
      ID: 168412312
      Mon, Sep 23, 2002, 13:41
Great topic about the heels guys. Growing up as a kid in Missouri, my father always loved to watch Harley Race. Personally, I couldn't stand the guy. Seemed like he won every week. With all due respect to Ric Flair, I think it was Race that was the dirtiest player in the game.
319kev
      ID: 11438306
      Mon, Sep 23, 2002, 15:08
My favourite heel of all time has to be the early HBK. As a kid, I loved the Rockers. When he threw Marty Jennetty through the Barber Shop window, I was shocked.

The brashness, the arrogance, the fact he had Sherry with him along with the fact he broke up one of my favourite tag teams made me want to hate HBK. To me, he was Ravishing Rick Rude with more in ring ability.

And do correct me if I am wrong, but I do remember HBK as IC champ not putting the title on the line in many Saturday matches. Always a story line I liked, as HBK would come out to the ring facing some no namer, and then getting on the mic to let everyone know this was a non title match.
320Mike D
      Donor
      ID: 4372378
      Mon, Sep 23, 2002, 16:32
Race had some great upper body strength, and he was a suplex machine decades before the Steiners/Tazz/Angle/Benoit/etc.. blue hen, if you never experienced the Honky Tonk Man as a top heel, I highly recommend a trip to Blockbuster.........man could he p*ss off the fans. He was awesome.
321blue hen, almighty
      ID: 473133021
      Mon, Sep 23, 2002, 17:03
I remember the Honky Tonk Man, although I was a little too young to "get" it. He was cool, he was cocky, and he was bad. And he really sucked in Acclaim's Nintendo game.

Honestly, I'd love to watch some old stuff, but it's hard to wade through all the videos. I got a DX one with a half-naked HBK on the cover, and it wasn't as good as I expected. I'm most interested in old NWO stuff.

Anyone seen Ready to Rumble? I really like that one, although I was never really into WCW. But at least I can recognize DDP and Booker.
322Species
      Sustainer
      ID: 304521510
      Mon, Sep 23, 2002, 17:44
Mike D - I always used to keep my eye on Honky Tonk Man's face after he got through on the mic....to see if he would crack up. His sh!t was SO funny that even HE had to laugh after the fact. Can't you just see him or other classic heels afterwards in the locker rooms just busting a gut at some of the stuff they pulled? Must have been CLASSIC.
323Tree
      ID: 22758146
      Mon, Sep 23, 2002, 22:09
Harley Race helped make Ric Flair. Race and Dusty Rhodes were the two rivals who made Flair the legend he is.

Tree
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