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Subject: State of the Forum
Posted by: Guru
- [330592710] Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 11:50
It's hard to believe, but RotoGuru.com will be 5 years old next December 1st. And the forum (including its predecessor versions) has now been around for just over 3 years. (Seems like longer, doesn't it?)
Thought I would throw out a few stats, and gauge the current sentiment of forum users.
I have intentionally not done any external promotion of the forum for the past few months. This includes having TSN eliminate any direct forum links from their site. I did this for several reasons- To focus on fostering better quality, rather than growth or activity, and
- Just to see how it would go.
Recently, I think quality (and decorum) has been pretty good. But activity is also clearly down. Obviously, those two go hand in hand. Is the trade-off appropriate?
Here are a few stats. In the past 7 days, there have been about 2500 messages posted (either new threads or responses). Of these, slightly more than half are at the baseball forum. Golf and politics each get between 15-20%, and every other area gets 5% or less of the total new posts.
Overall traffic (measured by total bandwidth) is down about 30% from the same period last year. Aside from the fixed costs of servers, bandwidth is my most significant computer-related cost. However, I'm not really saving anything from the decline in usage, since I pay in advance for a certain capacity. I'm just getting more unused capacity than I used to. At some point, I might be able to back off on my limits, but I'm not near that point yet, and the savings would be very modest. But I certainly have some capacity to grow without incurring any material marginal costs.
As an aside, I'm looking into server options, and may be able to move to a cheaper dedicated server in the next several months. This shouldn't have any bearing on site functionality or capacity, but could potentially save as much as $1000-2000 per year. It's hard to gauge whether GuruPatron donations are going to fall significantly short of the first year's level, but it seems likely that there will be some falloff, and these savings could help provide some breathing room in that regard.
With that as background, I raise the following questions:
1. Is the forum best served by the lack of direct links from the TSN site? Or would links from some of the Ultimate games be desirable to keep some degree of new blood flowing in this direction?
2. How many new users have found the forum in the past several months? If you are one of them, how did you find us?
3. Are there other forum-related issues that I should be considering? |
| 1 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 22347210
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 11:55
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I think if you are going to grow the site, you should do it during baseball which tends to bring in the higher-quality new posters. Then you can back off during football season, for instance.
I've been doing some discrete referals to managers I think will help contribute when I run across them on other sites. Maybe a more grass-roots campaign by the regulars might be a backdoor way of growing the site.
pd
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| 2 | Go Easy
Donor
ID: 4362539
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 12:10
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I’ve been a little leery about promoting the site since I first read your statement about not having a link from TSN. I do know of several people who lurk everyday (used to be me) but never post. I would assume you are getting quite a few more visitors that just don’t post. It would not be hard to get a lot more if that’s what you want. It only takes one visit to rotoguru.com to be hooked.
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| 3 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 12:14
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I wore my Rotoguru tshirt to the laundromat yesterday.
;)
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| 4 | Seattle Zen
Donor
ID: 554192913
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 12:15
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I think that fewer people are playing the TSN games than three or four years ago, hense the decrease in posts and traffic. I used to play baseball and basketball at Smallworld, but I have stopped and therefore don't post nearly as often, though I certainly clog up the Politics Forum.
Because the TSN games consist of dedicated managers (they have to pay to play), I would think that having a direct link on the baseball site would attract new, quality members to the site. A quick look at the Gurupie standings in baseball shows that only 11 of the top 100 managers are listed, that seems awfully low.
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| 5 | Go Easy
Donor
ID: 4362539
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 12:17
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Man, I want one of those shirts. If I ever win one I would like to get it signed by the Guru and all the Gurupies. Might take some time to make that happen but I think I would give it a shot.Of course it would then be framed.
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| 6 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 22347210
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 12:19
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Go Easy, you can buy one if you want. Check out the RotoGuru Store.
pd
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| 7 | LarryLegend
Sustainer
ID: 191122811
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 12:21
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I first found the site during Basketball season via the TSN link.
A few thoughts re: links:
1. I absolutely don't think a link should be posted from a free game
2. I'm on the fence regarding posting a link on some of the larger ultimate games. I am grateful to have found the site via the basketball link, but I certainly recognize the cons to doing this. I wonder if a link might be introduced a month into the season, where a lot of the players less serious about playing would have dropped off.
3. I think for certain sports (i.e. golf) the link is important. Creating a community allows a game that might be marginally profitability to grow and thus keeping the game around for future seasons.
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| 8 | philflyboy
Leader
ID: 342462420
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 12:21
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One area I have been looking at the last few days is your heading at the top "So far, 238 Gurupies have contributed a total of $14,240. Thanks!)" I think it might better serve you to start the amount at $0 every year. Maybe say last year XXX gurupies contributed $$$ this year ....... When I look at the 14K, one could think that is the amount donated this year and not over the last couple. Might help the average poster see what needs to be raised each year.
As far as posting on TSN, I hate the newbies who come in and act like jerks but I also can see the benefit to you by having more people on the site. If more people is what you need to keep the site open then I think that the only choice you have is to open it up to more people, or figure out how to get those who are here now (and able to support) to support better.
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| 9 | Go Easy
Donor
ID: 4362539
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 12:23
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I'd rather win one, but I probably will have to settle for buying. You think we could get a sign the Go Easy Guru T-shirt campaign started and pass it forward to all the Gurupies. Guru if I buy one will you sign it before it is shipped?
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| 10 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 1832399
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 12:23
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Yeah if you actually had to win anything to get one, Guru would have to be giving them out as like 10,000th place prizes for me to ever have qualified for one.
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| 11 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 22347210
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 12:24
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Go Easy, are you signed up for Season II 500K? I'll probably give the winner a RotoGuru shirt.
pd
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| 12 | rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 766215
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 12:27
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From time to time, I'll direct friends or managers in other leagues (from Yahoo or ESPN) here if I think they are serious. However, referals are limited because SO MUCH of the conversation/posts are related to TSN games. The normal roto-player has very little interest in TSPNs or Damon's price change. While we are discounting Damon's worth due to a price decline, the normal roto-player may very well be considering acquiring him! Even (some) of the nifty tools such as the assilimlator and sartables are TSN oriented.
Because I play other fantasy games with rules oriented towards traditional roto-style games, I'd love to see the forum get an influx of owners with more diverse interests. As it stands now, this forum will shrink/expand based on the popularity (cost) of the TSN format games. I think this is even more true in the basketball forum.
Guru, just to be clear, this is not a critism of the site. I'll certainly continue to visit and contribute, but there is a huge market of fantasy owners that are untapped that would be awelcome addition.
rfs ®
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| 13 | Go Easy
Donor
ID: 4362539
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 12:33
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PD, yes I'm signed up but I wouldn't put 2 bucks on me to win if they had a line in Vegas. Think I'll probably just buy one as well as donate a bit more $$ (after my Mexico trip of course). If I happen to win I'll be happy to have another. I still like the idea of starting the "Gurupies sign the Go Easy Guru shirt" would make a nice wall ornament.
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| 14 | Chestergreat
ID: 58224208
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 12:48
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I was introduced to the site this year when playing Season 1 Ultimate Golf. The Guru site was mentioned by a manager in my division when I posted in my Division's message board.
I have recommended the site to anyone in my divisions who posts a message other than the standard "I'm going *%^&%ng clobber your &*%%^ng team, faggot" (most frequently got this type of message in Basketball game)
Opening a link in pay games should help increase activity from new avid players. I believe you do have a monitoring system. . so unwanted posters can be held in check.
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| 15 | JC REB
Sustainer
ID: 5212816
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 13:19
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I am newbie, having found the site toward the end of the 2001 Smallworld baseball season. I found the strategy discussions to be just what I was looking for, however most of the real strategy issues had been discussed at length and with great insight before I found the boards, the only major open issues for this season dealt with pitcher pricing and change in hitter points, and these were quickly understood and covered by the experts here. Being a newbie, and seeing the high quality level of posts by the experts, I was reluctant to post, but did find much value in reading the posts daily. I also found the tools the Guru has provided to be very useful.
I suspect that there are others like myself, who found the site later on, and sort of feel like an intruder, but enjoy the site, despite a reluctance to post. I do fear that the reduced number of TSN players will continue to result in reduced traffic here, as TSN will not be able to attract new players to a pay game, and as Guru has pointed out, most of the posts relate to TSN Baseball. I will continue to offer my financial support to this site, and hope for its continued success.
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| 16 | SillySpheres
ID: 58512252
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 13:25
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I started coming here about a month into Ultimate BBall this past season. This site was a tremendous help to me in my first real season doing fantasy sports and it guided me to WWR of about 650 (which I am quite happy with). However, the quality of the bball forums definately dropped as the season went on. Im not sure what happened, whether it was the impending start of baseball or new visitors or what, but the action threads became flame wars or you would have to wade through 75 posts to get to any bball news. So far this year, the baseball forum has been great.
With that being said, if anything, I would be less inclined to invite ppl here, especially those in my division just based on the fact that I dont want to lose this forum as an advantage. I dont want my competitors to have access to the same tools that I do. Of course, this is selfish and I know I am in the same division as some of the other members so it doesnt always work out.
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| 18 | APerfect10
Leader
ID: 133401316
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 13:49
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rfs couldnt of stated it any better. I agree completely! Tap another resource rather then TSN. Get a few 'traditional roto' tools and the people will come.
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| 19 | StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 4431816
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 14:44
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It would seem likely that the number of users/posts is related to the number of people playing TSN games. Over the last few years I always played baseball and football, both regular and midseason, and several roto style leagues. Two years ago I added TSN hockey and golf to the mix. I was pretty active on the boards and really enjoyed it. Due to time and cost I decided to cut back and will probably just play golf, until it goes defunct, and then just play some roto style baseball and football leagues with people I've met on these boards. I still post in the baseball forum on occassion, but very seldom. I thought hard about midseason baseball, but with a pending strike, I thought why bother. My whole enthusiasm for baseball has been waning this year.
I have invited a few over from TSN ultimate golf and would not mind a link from there. I'll have to say that TSN ultimate golf is not going to recruit many managers to their other games as their customer service is dismal over there. Many managers in a division I'm in, that are new this year, are already saying they won't be back, and I would assume that means to any of the games. When you are paying, you at least expect a response to an email.
I still remember what the TSN baseball boards were like, and if this site were to turn into that.......
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| 20 | Erik B.
ID: 239592612
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 17:08
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Gang:
For what it's worth, our numbers have not declined. The free baseball game is bigger than it was last year, for example.
As a fan of the board, I sort of agree with the quality control angle, even though it's sub-optimal from a business standpoint. The free users, on the whole, tend to be less articulate and generally mess up the boards.
But, for what it's worth, I've found it very rare to deal with an Ultimate manager in any of our games who's extremely rude or inarticulate. I've offered my email address to a number of managers (both here and elsewhere), and I haven't received a single profane email.
If I had a vote, I'd open up Rotoguru to Ultimate users, but keep the links off the free games. This, I think, would be the best balance between quality control and new blood.
-ESB
GM/TSN Games
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| 21 | StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 4431816
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 18:14
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My post was in regard to the number of Gurupies that were playing TSN games. If our numbers are fairly constant, but then a significant portion don't play some of the games, that would lead to a less active board. I'm not sure whether this is the case or not. How many unique posters in baseball this year vs. last year might answer that.
Glad to hear TSN game enrollment is up :)
Hopefully many of the free game players will switch to the ultimate game.
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| 22 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 3502218
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 18:21
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I think I would like to see more support for traditional roto (as that is all I am playing this year). I'm not sure what sort of content or form this would come in. Maybe draft value calculations, some method of calculating fair trade value, possibly a way to quantify a player's current trends. Match-up data. I don't know how much of this is possible, but it is something I have been thinking about. This is the first time I've owned a roto team, and maybe these sorts of tools become unnecessary as time goes on. A dedicated discussion board for roto might spur more talk.
I am taking a break from tsn this year, but I will likely be back. I think a link to the ultimate game would do more good than harm.
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| 23 | The Left Wings
ID: 760719
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 18:45
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Of course the enrollment is up. It has to. The game is publicized a whole lot more widely than it used to be.
And I agree with the choice of linking in Ultimate and not Free game. The people in Ultimate most likely have more respect to the game. There are only a handful of us freegamers (who decide to boycott the pay game because of the sour-milk strategy) who are dedicated enough hang around.
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| 24 | PGunn
ID: 38644122
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 18:53
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Post 1, "baseball brings out higher quality new posters"
That's a pretty stupid thing to say.
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| 25 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 3502218
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 18:55
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Case in point. Don't you spend most of your time over in hoops, pgunn?
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| 26 | PGunn
ID: 38644122
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 19:03
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Yes I do, but I would like to see him explain that statement. It's an insult to alot of people IMHO.
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| 27 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 3502218
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 19:29
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I'm sure he will be happy to, but it isn't clear what there is about the statement to explain. It's PD's opinion (and mine too) that the level of dialogue on baseball, particularly those engaged in by newbies, is higher than in what you read over in hoops.
This shouldn't be a surprise or an insult to someone who trolled the hoops board like it was his own personal WWF cage match.
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| 28 | popsitup
ID: 28621217
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 19:34
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Well I'm new to this site and was told about it by StLCards from the golf game at TSN. I have referred a few others who basically only read and don't post. None of whom would post something they wouldn't let their kids read. I use it mostly for golf news and a little baseball but I play the free baseball game and no one over there posts.
I will be making a donation in the future when I get my paypal account working correctly.
I have found that in golf most posters are the type you would want wether it be a pay game or free game. There are a few bad ones but they do have a way of disappearing. Otherwise I would only have links to pay games in other sports.
Thanks again for a great forum, Kenneth
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| 29 | Stuck in the Sixties
Leader
ID: 0631322
Wed, Jul 03, 2002, 22:54
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I think a link from the Ultimate game makes a lot of sense for all the reasons mentioned above.
A few nonsensical posts are a small price to pay for an increase in traffic.
I think that once the newcomers are exposed to the unrelenting quality of the site and its tools, donations will increase, as well.
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| 30 | Go Easy
Donor
ID: 43626411
Thu, Jul 04, 2002, 11:37
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One other thing about getting more traffic and risking adding(for a lack of better terms) non-quality participation. It really is quite enjoyable to read all of the posts the Gurupies use to bury said poster. This makes me think of some post about umm.. a basketball I think. Have a great SAFE Holiday!!
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| 31 | Caper @ Home
ID: 186541222
Sat, Jul 13, 2002, 17:23
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Sorry to join this discussion so late, but I have been out of town, and I want to take a moment and say thanks to Guru and the other regular contributors to this board. I disagree with many of the assessments made here but I greatly appreciate the chance to evaluate alternate viewpoints before making decisions. That said, I agree with a great many as well.
I would love to see a joining of the discussions here with the Ultimate games to add as many new and committed (or Comittable if you ask my wife)players to join. The sartables are a great resource, but the varied opinions and discussions/arguements are invaluable IMHO.
To close quickly, I will become a guru-patron this year as I have benefited greatly from these boards and I think tying them to Ultimate Games is a great addition as is a spot to discuss traditional roto sports. Is it reasonable or possible to make the tie to Ultimate Sports and charge an extra few bucks that could aid in supporting this site? Just an idea, and one that I would gladly support.
Again thanks to all.
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| 32 | Pearl St. Punisher
Donor
ID: 343232421
Sat, Jul 13, 2002, 19:35
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I agree with the Ultimate season link ideas.
In terms of diversifying, you (Guru), and us alike, would need to bring more tools and discussion focused on other sites and more traditional roto games such as Yahoo and Sportsline or just plain 'ol strategy discussing more than "most TSNP/per game vs. salary" or "who's the next $ train?"
As far as I'm concerned, I've enjoyed this site immensely for about 3-4 years and will continue to help out ($$-wise) as much as possible.
-Punisher
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| 33 | John Budge
Donor
ID: 25413818
Sun, Jul 14, 2002, 11:59
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I find it hard to believe that the free game is bigger this year.
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| 34 | MyDodgers
ID: 27416170
Sun, Jul 14, 2002, 21:22
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I like the idea of links in the Ultimate Games. As for the free games, I found the free baseball so incredibly boring I will no longer play it. There is a group of 4 of us who played both games, we all decided not to participate in the second free season.
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| 35 | Code Cracker
Leader
ID: 21752128
Sun, Jul 14, 2002, 21:43
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I would like to publicly thank the Guru for his hard work and dedication to the fantasy sports world. Five years is a long time in this business and for someone to update not only his site but a detailed and highly valuable database for the statistics is overwhelming. Hope you're not burning out, Guru. If so, there are many friends here who would be glad to share the load with you.
Just wondering how the donations are doing versus the yearly costs. I've been expecting and was prepared for another round of donations. A few bucks a month is a small price to pay for all the info/camraderie/help one can find here.
I also agree with others that roto info would be helpful. Several people have posted proposed trades with a request for evaluating the proposals and this is good.
Hope your site stays around a long time.
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| 36 | ChicagoTRS
Sustainer
ID: 3825378
Mon, Jul 15, 2002, 16:28
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I love this site and read messages daily and post almost daily. Baseball last year was my first year playing TSN games...I think the baseball site was a little more lively last year. I do think there were more ridiculous threads and more immature posters but there were also more high quality threads...more strategy discussion. I would welcome more users to these message boards. I think new users have a way of breathing new life into the board and have a way of bringing up questions that have never been asked. I for one would like to see more ultimate players visit this board.
It might be nice to start a seperate forum for traditional roto. I agree on resetting the donations numbers and the idea of last year$ vs this year$...
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