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0 Subject: indians talk

Posted by: gd.tribe
- [454591519] Tue, Jul 23, 2002, 02:09

just wondering what other indians fans think about what is going on with the team. sure, it's alot of fun when your team is winning, but i really enjoy the rebuilding process as well...at least as long as it doesn't take another 40 years. living in denver, the news i get is limited to the internet, and it seems the national media is giving shapiro credit for making some good moves. it seems however, that in cleveland shapiro and dolan are absolutely hated. by the way, if anyone is interested, paul hoynes(longtime indians beat writer)does a live audio chat wednesdays on cleveland.com which is the cleveland plain dealer site. the chats are archived and a good listen, providing insight frequently not available in the national media.
1Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 19652912
      Tue, Jul 23, 2002, 09:22
It would feel a lot better as an Indians fan if I felt we were getting real prospects in return for our trades. But Lee Stevens?

Trading away proven veterans for young prospects is the way to build up teams, but the Indians seem to be willing to trade away anyone. Colon, at 29 years old, should be a player you build around not move along for virtually nothing.

It's frustrating to watch the dismantling of the team. Now I know what the Marlins fans felt like after their WS win.

pd
2Wahoo
      ID: 280302214
      Tue, Jul 23, 2002, 11:45
PD the difference is the Tribe never had a WS win. Even with the 'All-Stars' we traded the farm for.
Anyone miss Juan Gonzales? Not I. Robbie? Well he might have been better than Ricky but he's not playing at his potential this year and brought some good prospects. It was tough to see Colon traded but I understand why. He was the biggest commodity we had and would bring the most prospects. And the more prospects you have, the better the chance you have a handful that actually turn out. Anyone miss Finley? Who? Cabrera should have been a Dodger last year before his trip back home (OK, bad pun). I think the guy I’ll miss the most if he’s traded is Thome. Here’s a guy who came up through our system and wants to stay here. I hope the Tribe can accommodate him.
No one likes rebuilding and it might have been easier if we didn't give the future away over the last few years but it'll clear out those who have only been fans since '95. I also think the pitching will be much stronger than before and we’ll just need to fill in a few position players which will be easier than filling in pitching.
gd.tribe you’re right, for the majority of ‘fans’ here, Shapiro and Dolan are severely disliked. Their take is Shapiro is getting nothing in return for thee guys he’s trading. The guys we’re getting now won’t help us for a year or two but they are replenishing the farm system. Lee Stevens was a throw in that Montreal required to balance the budget. Dolan is seen as an owner who can’t afford the team. Well he certainly couldn’t afford a payroll like NY or Boston but we’re in the Cleveland market. Like anyone else, you can’t spend more than you make for very long.
3Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 19652912
      Tue, Jul 23, 2002, 12:08
Have to disagree, particularly on Colon. We traded him for prospects, in the hope that, what? We'd get a young Colon out of the deal? We already had one!

We're a poorer team overall, for trading away veterans for minor leaguers. And while money is quite important, it's difficult to see how putting out youngsters before a less than full Jake all season is better than having fan favorites who sell out the season before it starts.

I don't give a hoot about clear out post-1995 fans. The entire game is built upon bringing in new fans (and their money and loyalty), and Indians management has shown not only a decision-making process which doesn't take into account fan reaction to trades, but also an inability to even put up a decent argument for many of them. Sure, cost is a big factor, but we ($79 million) never were paying players at the same level as NYY ($125 million) or Boston ($108 million).

Piss off the consumer and they aren't going to buy your product.

pd
4Wahoo
      ID: 280302214
      Tue, Jul 23, 2002, 13:08
Colon was traded for fielding prospects. Right now we’ve got a bundle of pitching talent that’ll be ready next year or the year after. It was a hard trade to accept but I still think it’s for the best. Besides, he might have had 3 or 4 birthdays this year, who knows?
We are a poorer team now but if we kept the veterans, we’d be a poorer team in 2 yrs. And it would take twice as long to rebuild. I suppose watching Gonzalez on the DL would have been exciting. And Finley he drew the fans… Fans have been bitching about Colon for the past couple years but all of a sudden they’re pissed he’s traded. I didn’t like Robbie in the first place but he was a fan favorite and with Vizquel made a great double-play combination. Gotta’ wonder about someone who’s been on so many teams… It can still be fun to watch; the fans that came aboard just don’t realize it since they weren’t around when the team was being built in the early 90’s
I am personally glad that the fans that aren’t going now are willing to their tickets to me. I’m able to attend more games now and I was a season ticket holder just so I could get to a couple of games.
The game originally wasn’t built around money, it has evolved into that. And it is only a matter of opinion that management doesn’t take fan reaction into account. Look at it this way, attendance was already in decline, fans were discontent with just making the playoffs, there was no way to improve anymore within the budget, they were no promising position players left in the minors, the teams average age was high (32?). They could have continued to just make the playoff while attendance declined and payroll soared just to suffer more a few years down the road. Change is never popular, but is often necessary and the best ideas aren’t always the most popular.
Let’s see where we’d be at if no trades had been made. Thome, Vizquel, Diaz, Fryman (Selby) remain the same. We’d have Robbie at 2nd putting up below avg. numbers. Gonzalez would be on the DL. Branyan, Bradley and Cabrera ??? in the outfield. Pitching Colon putting up a career year, Finley putting up better numbers than the last 2 years but his contract is up. Baez, CC, and fill in the 5th among Nagy, Drese, Wright… and we’d be in 3rd place instead of 4th? And Manuel still in charge since he didn’t force their hand. Oh, and the fans would still be discontent and not going to the games…

Bottom line is suck for the shortest time possible to keep a high average number of butts in the seats for as many years as possible.
That is what they are trying to do.
5gd.tribe
      ID: 454591519
      Tue, Jul 23, 2002, 13:29
i think part of the reason people aren't giving dolan a chance is simply that he keeps talking to the press. he should follow jacobs' lead and stay in the background but instaed he's putting himself in the crosshairs. people don't seem to realize that jacobs was even more of a bottom line owner than dolan. last year when the team was deficit spending on guys like gonzo, that was the fan in dolan trying to win...jacobs would never have allowed that to happen. this isn't to say anything bad about jacobs, but the reason he sold the team and hart left was because they saw this coming and wanted to leave with their reputations intact. i think if people give dolan a chance, they'll see that he is willing to put the money in the team to produce a winner. right now they are doing the right thing though. anyone remember the orioles at the end of ripkens career? they had an aging team of stars who were past their prime, untradable and a thoroughly lousy team with no prospects in their system. if cleveland doesn't make these deals, that would be our future.
6Wahoo
      ID: 280302214
      Tue, Jul 23, 2002, 16:37
exactly gd.tribe but we don't have an aging star like Ripkin although Thome could be. We'll see.
7Popular
      ID: 440452911
      Tue, Jul 23, 2002, 16:52
what's up with Milton Bradley hitting the ball so well lately??? I hope he keeps it up against the overrated Yanks!

Popular
8Wahoo
      ID: 35111090
      Tue, Jul 23, 2002, 22:59
Regardless of how you feel about the current state of the Indians, it's always nice to spank the yanks.
I like how Skinner is playing the game, working for the runs rather than waiting for HRs, Manuel just didn’t seem to get that. This team is getting exciting like they should have been from the beginning of the season. You have to like these young guys they have playing now, they seem to provide a spark that's been missing since '95! Bradley could come around with the right coaching. He needs to play like he wants to be there every day. Regardless of whether they win or lose, I hope to see more baseball like tonight.

Looking over some trade info on the Tribe tonight, I found this.
AB 293 R 53 H 71 2B 15 3B 2 HR 10 RBI 37 SB 5 CS 8 W 45 BA .242 OBP .351 SLG .410 OPS .760
AB 392 R 58 H 109 2B 19 3B 2 HR 8 RBI 37 SB 11 CS 3 W 37 BA .278 OBP .341 SLG .398 OPS .739
Lawton vs. Alomar Unfortunately Lawton was playing hurt and now on the DL
Other names I ran across now missing from the roster: Wil Cordero, Brady Anderson, John Rocker. OK so Cordova was a nice reclamation project last year.
Let's hear some more talk from either view.
9Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 2065918
      Tue, Jul 23, 2002, 23:52
It's funny how often the Tribe have picked up guys that were already well past being decent players. Cecil Fielder, anyone? Brady, Rocker, Cordero fit in there too.

I simply find it hard to believe that a team that has both Charles "Cartilage" Nagy and Ellis "Knees" Burks has a true long-term plan. Without a plan, all these trades for farm players aren't going to help except drive people away from the ballpark.

pd
10Puckprophet
      ID: 54371812
      Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 00:13
i didn't appreciate having to trade colon , finley , now wickman from my cle oto team...who's gonna close?
11Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 19652912
      Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 10:03
I don't think they are really worried about it. Closers only come in close games with the team ahead. The Tribe doesn't plan on being in many of those...
12Wahoo
      ID: 280302214
      Wed, Jul 24, 2002, 11:47
The Tribe has been picking up reclamation projects for years. Some work out, others don't and some you get burned on.
Don't be surprised to see Burks gone before the trade deadline, he could bring a few more prospects. He was brought in to provide hits and RBI's and must have done quite well considering there's still interest. Nagy will be gone after this year. Yeah it might have hurt keeping him but may pay dividends in the loyalty it showed.
I believe Shuey will be closing while Wickmans out. His contract doesn't make much sense right now since they don't really need a closer this year or next. He does fit in with the Cleveland image though.
Now the Marlins back in '97 is a team I would say had no long term plan.
13Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 87192619
      Sun, Sep 15, 2002, 09:16
From RotoWire:

Baseball Weekly's final monthly ranking of the 30 minor-league farm systems named the Indians No. 1. The Tribe's minor-league system was ranked 16th last season. In commenting on the Indians' top ranking, Baseball Weekly said, "Their trades did it, but the bottom line is the overall strength of the system. Top talent close to the majors at virtually every position. They did exactly what they had to do this year and did it beautifully."

Gotta love that.

pd
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