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0 Subject: TSN: State of the State

Posted by: Erik B.
- [239592612] Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 17:49

So, as September approaches, I will have completed my first year back at TSN. (I actually started on September 10th, officially.) And without sounding like a complete narcissist, I thought it'd be useful to communicate my thoughts on TSN Games over the last year. Most of you know that it’s been my policy from day one to be open about the business with our community-members, so take this note in the spirit of communicating. On Monday, of next week, I’ll deliver a very similar message to the people who work in my division.

Here goes. First, the positives:

1) As September 11 approaches in New York, I’m feeling increasingly fortunate to have a job that I more or less like, to be part of a family that is more or less healthy, etc. One thing that this last year has taught me is to never feel a sense of entitlement.

2) Correspondingly, I have tried to make COMMUNICATION with our users a top priority here. I don’t know if I’ve always communicated well. As a division, I still think we could be more organized. But I don’t think anyone could criticize us for our efforts to chat with our users. We’ve answered emails. We’ve hit the message boards. We’ve asked for your advice. This is the biggest step we’ve made as a business, I think.

3) In general, our PRODUCTION quality has improved as well. I’ve kept a running tally of days where something negative happened that shut the site down, or seriously affected our games. In 2000, there were over twenty days like this. Over the last year, there have been three days. In addition, Bernie and his team have consistently added new features to the game that most users have liked. Finally, our game rules have improved as well. The five-day aggregation for pitcher pricing, for example, was better than what was there before. So, too, with game-day trading for football.

4) These two things have led to a BUSINESS that’s much healthier. I know, I know – not everyone wants to pay for Ultimate games. And not everyone especially wants to pay for pay-for-trades game. But the alternative was this: keep producing low-quality free games that would have eventually forced us to go out of business. And what’s more (and I’m not sure this matters to you, but I’ll share anyway), we’re happier as a unit. As a group, we prefer building high-quality games. We like it when things work. And that makes us more productive, which in turn leads to a more successful business and, hopefully, a better user experience as well.

5) Finally, we’re especially happy with our STRAT franchise. We love working with Hal, the founder, and his team. Our Strat-O-Football game will be sick – positively the most involved, interesting football game I’ve ever played. For many people here, the Strat games have been games of passion – it’s allowed us to care about our work as craftsmen.

Now, the negatives:

1) Some of our games have been poorly produced. I list golf as an example. It’s not that we don’t want the game to work – but, for whatever reason, the game hasn’t run smoothly. Ever. So, too, with our NASCAR game. In both instances, we will need either to raise our quality, or stop producing the games altogether.

2) Some of our customer service policies have been … uh … ambiguous. This is a growing pains issue. We’ve never been in a position where we’ve had so many paying customers, and we’re trying to figure out how to service them fairly and in a timely fashion. Whether we shift someone’s roster who has made a mistake is an example … Getting prizes out the door on time is another … These aren’t issues of effort; they are issues of process. We need to formalize as we grow.

3) On the business side, we need to find new games to build. Our current product line has been very successful, but we could use 3-4 more games to add revenue and diversify our product mix. We’re thinking about getting deeper into soccer; we’re also thinking about more Strat games. At any rate, we’ve been good at diversifying our product mix, but we haven’t been great at adding tons of new products.

This is the state of the state as I see it. Over the next year, look for us to add new features to the Ultimate games, add 3-4 more PFT games, and formalize our customer service policies. Again, I don’t know if you find these thoughts useful or self-involved, but it’s been my goal since I came back to have perfect transparency between the business and its consumers. So what I’m seeing (above) is hopefully what you’re seeing.

As always, feel free to email me (ebarmack@sportingnews.com).

-Erik


1APerfect10
      Leader
      ID: 39143521
      Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 18:31
Erik B, the past year has been MUCH better than previous. I think you hit all of the nails on the head, positive and negative. Congrats to you and your staff.

Has TSN ever thought about entering the Roto arena? I think this is one HUGE part of fantasy sports that TSN is missing. You could have Roto for every sport, which would be a very nice revenue in itself. If you feel there are already to many roto leagues available such as yahoo, commisioner, etc I would think about entering the customized roto arena. A lot of my leagues are much more in-depth than what is currently available online.

Maybe this isnt an alternative, since you appear to have some contract with yahoo, but I think it would be worth a shot, especially if you went custom.
2butt
      ID: 347342819
      Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 19:34
Hmmmm ... no link to this post in the Hockey Forum?
3TaRhEElKiD
      ID: 42109719
      Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 20:52
Erik-
I agree with AP10. The game has been more enjoyable since the changes have been made. I don't mind the pay for play either. I think it provides better competition and it is understandable that TSN needs to make profit. I love TSN; I think they have the best game out on the web.

1 thing I have always asked:
Not that I have ever gotten 1st place, but I think this just goes with the game...I think the 1st prize should be tickets to that respective sport (i.e. SuperBowl, NBA Finals, or World Series).

But overall the game is great. I am positive that the majority love the changes.

THK
4Rogue's Strikers
      ID: 52731261
      Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 21:15
Its definitely been a fun year in baseball. No downtime, good prizes, and an assurance that the game will still be there come season's end. (Even if the real players aren't. ;) So often in the old days, we'd wonder if Stallworld would even be around to pay out the prizes people won...

AP10 has a good idea. A well-run roto league may be worth investigating. Its a huge chunk of the fantasy sports pie, and although there are alot of companies that are producing roto games, few are all that great. (The one keeper league I'm in is using CBS Sportsline at a cost of 120$ a year, and while its decent, there is definitely room for improvement.) One way to go would be to allow personalized leagues, with league homepages, league newspapers, minor league rosters, LOTS of player and team reports, etc. (I.E. Total customization for the league commish. My league uses 'bones' to make player transactions, and CBS has no way of tracking that for us.) Make it the best roto site out there. It would probably only serve the really serious leagues, but I think thats a niche market that hasn't really been filled at all. Also, I bet alot of people who play Yahoo and find themselves in free leagues with people who have already dropped out by May, would LOVE to be in a really serious league... I know for a fact that my league would be willing to pay more than the 120$ we give CBS if you guys gave us a better option.

Anyway, thats all I've got. Can't tell you how great it is to be able to discuss new ideas in a thread like this, instead of the old 'why isn't this working, why isn't that working' crap we used to have...
5Pilewort
      Donor
      ID: 47742170
      Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 21:56
congrats on the good year you've had at TSN. I have a special place in my heart for TSN, because I learned arithmetic digesting your paper's box scores and stats.

The pitcher repricing thing has thrown a monkey wrench into the strategy, and while it makes the game more complex and I like it, I would guess maybe some might not have played the mid-season game because of the 5-day pricing thing.

I'm a bit disappointed more people didn't subscribe to your mid-season game. I'd guess you were hoping for a better response than was achieved.

Thanks for the openess, and bests to you. I kinda felt sorry for the guy who had to publically respond to all those "prize query" gripes. He did a good job. And I'm sure you'll do well in your presentation to the brass.

6Pilewort
      Donor
      ID: 47742170
      Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 22:00
Hey, A-10 and Roguie: If you want a real roto league setup on the internet, how about talking Bernie into offer the classic roto draft. Then when half the people in your league quit, you have the ability to do something about it. Like switch leagues or contract their team,
7Stuck in the Sixties
      Leader
      ID: 207362721
      Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 00:17
Just for the record, I've been asking over and over again for the automated daily EMail report. Despite asking on all my teams on an average of twice a week, the reports fail to materialize.
Oh well!
8Erik B.
      ID: 239592612
      Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 11:59
Guys:

Thanks for the feedback.

Stuck in the Sixties:

Can you email me your team names, and sports (ebarmack@sportingnews.com)?

AP10:

Roto is an interesting area. It's something we've looked at hard, and will continue to look at.

butt:

linking from hockey now!

-ESB
9sarge33rd
      ID: 324532412
      Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 12:15
just want to echo the endorsement for a TSN supported ROTO series of games. For ex., I personally don't care much for the old SW football game, and therefore won't be participating this season. However, were TSN to initiate a ROTO football leaague, (in particular a KEEPER league) I'd look favorably upon paying $100-$250 annually to own a franchise within that system. (Providing of course that prizes were in line with game participation costs. Something like 2 ticketes and motel/meals to the following years Super Bowl for the League Champ would be real nice! lol)

I'll look through my old roto football stuff from the keeper leagues I used to run if you'd like, and forward the system we used if you're interested. (providing I can still lay my hands on it!)

and (as you already know)...I am hopeful you can retain the golf game. I have absolutely no idea why it experiences the problems it does. If it's the stat service you use, I'd suggest a new one.
10smartone
      Donor
      ID: 29135714
      Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 12:33
Erik, the TSN games (hops and baseball) were both very enjoyable and I must admit that I enjoyed each and every one of the 1500 (or so) pennies I paid for these games. Please keep on charging money (at that range) so that only serious players would join. Let me add a couple of remarks (I might have said them before, though...)

1. Gravitation: I would highly recommend that the gravitation will NOT be $20/day, but will be related to the player's market price (make it $10/day/million-market-price) -- you can then round it to keep the prices "clean"

2. Price Changes: In addition to gravitation and buy/sells, why don't you also add actuall performance as a factor in the price changes (for instance, a moving average of the last XX games, and perhaps with a higher weight on the recent 2-3 games). In such case, it may be better to hold some players even if they play less and avoid cases in which players that are highly owned have no upside (in their market price).

3. Inactive Teams: It is very easy to determine which teams are inactive (either teams that didn't make a trade in 21 days, for instance, or that the owner didn't check the stats for 15 days etc etc). Once such teams have been detected, the ownership calculations for the players in these inactive teams will NOT influence the gravitation. This is very important in the hoops game - since at the beginning of a year owners will select players from teams that have many games, and eventually these players don't gravitate later in the year since some of these teams became inactive (I can remember players from Indiana in last year's game that hardly gravitated... - but maybe my memory isn't that good...)


I hope that I was clear enough...

Thanks for your attention and I'll be happy to know what you think about these ideas (which are very easy to implement)
11Ref
      ID: 28045169
      Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 12:39
eric b, this has been the best year ever. I'm not going to get deep into suggestions, but one suggestion that would not only help your cutomers but help you prevent adjusting rosters etc. is to adopt the suggestion that someone made long ago...that is have an option defaulted to turned on...that you must buy and sell a player at the same time with a time stamp on there. "Do you wish to buy Joe Schmo for $3 billion and wish to sell Mike Like for 2.7 bill" etc.

Also if there could be a time stamp on the page that would either be moving or at least refreshed--we'd always know server time--regardless of that person's clock. Or...mins until freeze T-minus...

I make all my moves late. It's risky but with my schedule and the fact I like to wait as late as possible to see if anything changes or any news comes out to change my mind--I like to wait late. I've been fortunate to never have been invalid this year but there have been a couple times I've traded right at the freeze--very dangerous but both times I thought I had 2 more mins.

There are so many things going right this year and for that I applaud you.
12Al Bears
      ID: 53812914
      Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 16:39
Erik B. (please excuse my english)

Concernig TSN

Good points :

TSN is certainly the best game on the Web, and as a great Hockey fan I am ready to pay for it.(and aleady bought a team for 02/03).

A lot of progress have been made last year.

Bad Points :

Last year I finished 43th at TSN but did not receive any t-shirt or cap just because I live in Europe. That is certainly due to one of your US laws that I will never understand...

This year your free games are not interesting because of the amount of trades we receive every week ! (2 trades for hockey and one trade for soccer for exemple is not enough)

Personal advice :

If you want that a lot of people pay to play at TSN you first need a popular free-game. If I came to smallworld or TSN is because a friend who was playing freely gave me the internet address... and since then I know certainly 20 other persons that began playing becaus of him or of me. On these 20 persons perhaps only 3 or 4 would actually play for TSN. But if at the beginning there was no interesting free game, I would never have started playing.

Concerning Soccer... you have a lot of potential n Europe. You should just make a game on the European champion's League !!! You would certainly have more success than on any other country championship !

Al Bears
13Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 87192619
      Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 16:42
Ref, they have that in the Midseason Free baseball game. And if you drop someone but don't pick someone up then the player remains on the team.

pd
14walk
      Leader
      ID: 214581016
      Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 17:04
Eric B. I have been playing smallworld since 1998 and can clearly say this is your best year ever.

I was the guy that dropped in one summer of 1999 after the famous re-pricing debacle. I still work in mid-town would love to come by again. Back then, smallworld did not seem to appreciate communication and customer service. Now, you guys are exemplars. You and Bernie personally go out of your way, as in this thread, to post here and give updates, solicit feedback, stimulate discussion and answer questions. I can only reinforce this behavior by continuing to give you positive feedback for this apparent changed in your overall business plan, and will continue to pay to play for your games. I think they are highly worth the nominal fees (of course, I work for a living and am not a high-school fantasy loving dude who may not have the $).

All I can say is that I still think Smallworld's games are the best, as I love the soft-cap approach to drafting, trading, and investing in players. I have a football team and 3 hockey teams already on stand-by.

Keep up the good work!

- walk
15James K Polk
      ID: 23754811
      Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 18:36
Considering the labor problems, I also like Ref's implied suggestion in post 11 that players be priced in the billions next year ...
16The Left Wings
      ID: 1668298
      Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 18:47
I think that the technical side of things were awesome this year, but the public relation side of things SUCKED.

This is just like the current baseball labour problems. As long as there are people like you guys who would jump to pay to play the game, there will continue to be a price for the game and it will only go up. This is just like as long as there are owners like Steinbrunner or the dude in Texas who would pay players big bucks, the players' salary will only continue to sky rocket.
If fewer players pay to play the game, then TSN will be forced to go into a "reconstructing" phase in which the free game will be better than what we have now so that they can attract more people.
17tduncan
      ID: 423452813
      Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 19:01
if nobody would buy teams in the pay games the TSN fantasy games unit will collapse and there will be no games at all, free or pay. The free lunches era is over TLW - $12 for 6 months of fun is a great deal anyway you look at it.
18tduncan
      ID: 423452813
      Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 19:08
And more on the subject:

The only thing that bothers me is that people outside the US are not eligible for prizes. I know, I know, this has been talked to death, and you can't do it because there are problem with the famous TSN "legal department", but what can I say, it just bothers me that TSN can take money out of my bank account, but can't put money back into it.
19cancermoon
      ID: 53248219
      Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 20:33
I don't see why they can't see wining a fantasy baseball comp as like a part time job, hell i spend enough time on it to make it atleast a casual job, so therefore why can't TSN pay foreigners for the work they have put in, Foriegners get paid millions a year from US internet sites for marketing, sales etc, why not also pay for playing games. Not like it is gambling and therefore falling under the gambling rules.

As for TSN, it is a great game, the best i have found on the net and i think it is good they charge, as then you don't have 200,000 people that have no clue, screwing up the trading activity.

Surely the only people complaining about paying for the game are unemployed and students, so kind of selfish based reasoning there, ohh i guess socialists may compalin also, but America is suppose to be ruthlessly (sp) capitalist, so act like it.
20Matt S
      Donor
      ID: 22752811
      Thu, Aug 29, 2002, 22:19
LOL cancermoon.

I have really enjoyed this year's game, and am glad I made the last minute decision to fork out the dough and play. It's looking like I've won my division and will even get my money back. I will be playing the hockey game again, for the first time in a few years, but not the football game (a crapshoot, not your fault TSN.)

Anyways, I just wanted to chime in and say good job. I'm just hoping the hockey game won't be ignored with Hoops and FBall going on at the same time...

Matt S
21Ref
      ID: 121135289
      Fri, Aug 30, 2002, 00:15
Prez, almost put trillions in there--but thought I may have been exagerating a smidge...;)

Matt S., totally agree (except I don't play hockey game).
22Rogue's Strikers
      ID: 52731261
      Fri, Aug 30, 2002, 02:04
I think #12 is important here... I was the same way. I got lured in by the free game in 1999, and thats why I'm willing to pay for the Ultimate games. But if I came in now, and saw the free game as-is, I probably wouldn't have been hooked.

One suggestion I'd like to make: Make a 1-month 'trial' season for each sport. For hockey, allow people to play with 50 mil and 12 players for the month of October. They can see what the real game is like, but they don't get to play the whole season. Obviously people don't sign up to play one month, so I doubt you'll lose any Ultimate customers.
23Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 337123012
      Fri, Aug 30, 2002, 12:12
I'll add in my thanks to TSN for putting out a really good product this past year. I have no problem spending $20 for your ultimate games, which are now run with great quality. For example, the way you handled the potential strike situation today is great. By pushing back the roster freeze to the last minute, you give yourself maximum flexibility and allow managers (as it turns out) a couple of hours to make use of the fact that the strike has been averted. I don't think Smallworld/TSN would have been able to make this adjustment so smoothly in the past; it's a credit to your improved organization.

As far as suggestions, I can only say that I am very curious about smartone's second idea with price changes. I think tying them in part to actual performance in addition to the market aspects would change the managing strategy for the better. Also, Rogue makes a good suggestion about a trial game at the beginning of the season (or perhaps you could offer it for the weeks prior to the release of your midseason game?). If you give people a taste of your ultimate game, I think you'll find that a good number like the product and hopefully they would be willing to pay for it after that brief taste.
24mrbig
      ID: 255172818
      Fri, Aug 30, 2002, 12:22
I've been playing since 1998 also and this is easily the best year. Baseball only for me! I think the pay game is exceptionally run, although I agree that there needs to be some kind of expanded free game to attract new people. The current baseball free games (with only 2 free weekly trades) is not, in my opinion, fun enough to help attract new customers. Perhaps next year you could offer an introductory period for the free games. Have the early-bird specials like this year, but then also have a 2 week to 4 week free period where you could play the full game for free. You would have to enter all your credit card info, but they could email TSN if within that couple week period if they didn't like the game. This would allow anybody who hasn't played TSN games an opportunity to experience the full game for free, albeit briefly.

just a thought though. Keep up the good work:-)
25Puckprophet
      ID: 54371812
      Fri, Aug 30, 2002, 13:02
why are there only 4 trades / week in hockey??????? last year there were 5.......
26The Left Wings
      ID: 1668298
      Fri, Aug 30, 2002, 13:10
Naw, tying the price change to performance will make making money too predictable.
27 Stuck in the Sixties
      Leader
      ID: 12451279
      Fri, Aug 30, 2002, 13:46
Eric:

Still no action despite the Email I sent yesterday. (7) I've enclosed my EMail address in case that is the problem.

Although I'm an American, I'd still be interested to know exactly why it is that non-Americans can be charged to participate in a game but cannot be awarded a prize if they win. Could you please discuss that issue?

Is there a way that, if a non-American player won something, you could send his prize to a US address, from which the prize could be sent to wherever it belongs?

There must be Americans who'd be willing to provide that service. The policy just seems so unfair!
28Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 337123012
      Fri, Aug 30, 2002, 14:05
TLW, as I see it, the idea of tying price change to performance is to cause making money to become less predictable. Because in order to predict whether a guy's price will go up or down in the course of the weeks you own him, you will have to predict what his performance will be. If you predict that someone's hot streak is a fluke, he will make a very poor long-term hold, and the performance aspect of the price changes will reinforce that point.

However, I do see a potential pitfall with tying price changes to performance and keeping the market system that would cause making money to become more predictable. If a cheap player has a huge night, we know managers start to buy that player. If they know they will get more gain in RV because of his past performance, then even *more* managers will buy him (or more accurately, there will at least be an even bigger incentive to buy him, which should translate into more managers buying him). That is something that has to be avoided if tying price change to performance is going to constitute an improvement to the game.

And to be honest, off the top of my head I really can't think of a good formula that will avoid all possible problems with tying price change to performance. But I think it might be worth it for people to think about it and throw out some ideas about it. I don't claim it's guaranteed to improve the game, but I think it is definitely one way to change the game and the strategy involved, so it is worth exploring. I would not (of course) want to see it incorporated into the Ultimate game yet -- but I would recommend considering it as something to experiment with in a free game. Anyhow, just my two cents which may not even be worth one penny. :)
29The Left Wings
      ID: 1668298
      Fri, Aug 30, 2002, 14:15
Jazz, your second paragraph is exactly what I'm saying. And if you're to tie performance to repricing, it cannot be avoided because it is the definition of what we're talking about. Think about it. If a player is hot, his price is going to shoot up. Tying performance to that will only increase the spike more. In other words, money trains will be easier to find.
30Puckprophet
      ID: 54371812
      Fri, Aug 30, 2002, 16:14
having 5 trades a week , is a fundamental part of the hockey game , don't go changing it now!!??
31Erik B.
      ID: 239592612
      Fri, Aug 30, 2002, 16:23
Stuck:

It's simple. You need to pass legal restrictions against gambling laws in each country, which is complex and time-consuming. For the UK, we were able to do some research and find that we were safely inbounds. But for other countries we haven't been so lucky. I'll go look into your email now.

-ESB
32APerfect10
      Leader
      ID: 407161410
      Fri, Aug 30, 2002, 22:47
My first major complaint with the 'new' TSN. An extended roster freeze today due to the strike being canceled was very unfair and IMHO an unprofessional decision. I left my computer a few minutes after noon, knowing the decision and thinking everyone else in the game wouldnt be able to make trades, similar to me. We were all in the same boat, no big deal. I return at 3:30pm EST and realize the freeze was extended. If these rules would've been announced ahead of time, I would have no complaint. If the server crashed and an extended freeze was awarded, I would have no problem. To award an extended deadline for NO PROBLEM is ridiculous and extremely unfair. Sorry guys, but you get a BIG thumbs down with this decision. :(
33cancermoon
      ID: 53248219
      Fri, Aug 30, 2002, 23:31
APerfect10 I agree,

and umm I don't think i will inform my partner that she is actually gambling when she entered TSN fantasy baseball, she hates gambling, she just thought this was a fun game with prizes.
34Ender
      ID: 13443221
      Fri, Aug 30, 2002, 23:33
AP10, I don't know if it matters to you at this point, but that decision was made at around 10:15 EST according to this thread.

It doesn't settle the issue of whether it was necessary or not (though I think Jackie Robinson gives a compelling argument in the linked thread). It does give notice prior to the normal freeze.
35smallwhirled
      Donor
      ID: 17152614
      Fri, Aug 30, 2002, 23:40
I have to disagree here. An hour and 45 minutes notice is plenty in this situation due to the circumstances. I remember an extended freeze a few times in basketball due to server problems, but you can't even have a fantasy game if there are no games. Knowing if there are games to be played should rank right along with server issues, IMHO.

I saw the thread, decided to do some stuff and get back on at 2:30 EST, FWIW.

smallwhirled
36cancermoon
      ID: 53248219
      Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 00:16
what about people who live in England and are sleeping?? is it fair on them, this game is open to the world to play, so any rules change should happen atleast 1 day in advance, otherwise americans got the advantage.

If there are 3 games to be played on a certain day and they all have rain on the day, should they extend the freeze until they know if any games will be played, so people don't waste their PT's? it is extreme example but still the same reasoning.
37Puckprophet
      ID: 54371812
      Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 00:57
hey, how about keeping my 4 vs 5 trades a week nearer the top??! ;)
38Ender
      ID: 13443221
      Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 10:04
No it isn't. You're comparing the potential postponement of a few games due to natural forces to the cancellation of all games due to a decision by the organization and players that govern the sport.

39APerfect10
      Leader
      ID: 407161410
      Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 10:10
Ender, the point is this. We've known for how long that the strike was going to occur on the 30th. This wasnt some last minute problem. They could've mentioned that they were going to extend the freeze weeks ago, but instead they decided to change it last second. Yes, 1:30 is last second compared to 3 weeks. Some players, I would suspect the majority, are unable to check TSN every other hour for extended deadlines. I bet the majority of TSN players were affected negatively due to the extended freeze rather than positively. (Heck, even those of us who were screwed made out decent, since RJ had a poor night) It wasnt the best decision for the overall world of TSN.
40Ender
      ID: 13443221
      Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 10:18
I'll be honest. I'm not completely sure how I feel about it. I guess, unlike yourself, I do roughly equate server down time and potential work stoppage on a relative scale.

41Stuck in the Sixties
      Leader
      ID: 12451279
      Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 11:59
Eric:

"It's simple. You need to pass legal restrictions against gambling laws in each country, which is complex and time-consuming. For the UK, we were able to do some research and find that we were safely inbounds. But for other countries we haven't been so lucky."

What would happen if you just went ahead and shipped a T-shirt to someone in Germany or Italy?
Exactly what could they do to you?

Sorry if this displays ignorance but I think lawyers tend to obfuscate just to convince their employers that lawyers are necessary.

I'm having trouble imagining the prosecutorial entity that would be interested in a push to make sure that no illegal T-shirt ever escaped its scrutiny.
42Pilewort
      Donor
      ID: 91262614
      Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 13:04
nowhere in the "in case of a strike" thread did TSN indicate an extended trade deadline would be instituted in the case of a last-minute labor settlement. We, the players of Smallworld's games, had major decisions to make as to the best course of strategy leading up to the strike deadline.

But I suspect the trading deadline extension couldn't be exploited by many of those whose strategy was predicated on a walk-out. They, I'd guess, were probably low on trades by Friday morning.
43Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Sat, Aug 31, 2002, 15:57
I think of the extended deadline this way.

As the morning progressed, it became obvious that any official annoucement was going to be delayed until the very last moment, which probably meant around noon EST (or even slightly after). This meant that, if managers were going to wait until the last moment, there could be a crunch on server resources at the freeze time - whether there was a formal announcement or not. By extending the freeze, the likelihood of a server crunch was minimized.

Could this have been foreseen (and announced) further in advance? Perhaps. But clearly, this was an unusual situation. If no extension had been implemented, and the server had crashed when a lot of last minute trades were attempted, there would probably be a similar outcry.

And as far as those who were sleeping in England... Why were they asleep in the late afternoon?

44ESB
      ID: 43840110
      Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 10:45
Gang:

I'm sorry some of you were disappointed with the extended freeze decision. Sometimes we make mistakes because we're not thinking clearly or well, but sometimes we're faced with extraordinary circumstances. The (potential) strike, I feel, was one of those circumstances. No solution was perfect, and we went with what we thought would be fairest to all concerned.

In other words, if this was a mistake, and it might have been, it's one I can live with because I know we were trying our best to deal with a very unusual thing.

Stuck:

Our prizes are distributed through accounting. Again, I'm not trying to avoid saying it's a sub-optimal situation, but it's one over which we have little control. Honestly, getting UK prizes for our Premiership game was a big step. If we do a Serie A game, it might open the rest of the Europe. But we need to take baby steps, which is exactly what we're doing.

-Erik
45Ref
      ID: 121135289
      Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 11:39
ok, am gonna put my 2 cents in here. Mentioned it in Belly thread I think.

I think it was unfair. I didn't see it mentioned on the page when I left the computer at around 10:30 ET. Nor did I see mention of it on the boards. I didn't go back to the page after the strike was averted as I knew it was past the freeze deadline. Never did I even imagine the freeze was going to be extended nor did anyone even hint at the notion. I didn't want to make any trades in case the weekend games were wiped out. Because of that my trade I wanted to make was made the next day--costing me points and cash.

However, when complaining, there usually needs to be something you want done to correct the "injustice." Since nothing can be done at this point to most of the game base that was uninformed, then I am done complaining. Fortunately it only cost me 23 points and 110K. I just hope that is not the difference in money from now until the end.
46Stuck in the Sixties
      Leader
      ID: 12451279
      Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 12:40
Eric:

Problem with updates solved! Whatever you did, it happened quickly and effectively. Thanks so much for your help.

Don
47KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 266182910
      Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 14:49
Unfortunately, as is the case with most things in life, the bad usually has a way of overshadowing the good...

The Good:
A smooth running baseball game with very few technical problems and good customer service. No major problems, on the whole, and an entertaining 6 months of fun. Well worth the money.

The Bad:
A horrible start to NASCAR, Season 2 that still hasn't gotten better a full month later. You said in your original post that, "Some of our games have been poorly produced. I list golf as an example. It’s not that we don’t want the game to work – but, for whatever reason, the game hasn’t run smoothly. Ever. So, too, with our NASCAR game." I would propose that the "whatever reason" is that you don't have a single person watching the game. Things like Price Movers that aren't updated, Buy/Sell Drivers pages that aren't updated, and Drivers pages that aren't updated almost a full day after the roster freeze surely could be found by just one person watching the game on a regular basis, no? Maybe the producers of the game should be forced to participate in the game so that they have a more real sense of when problems occur? It seems like TSN just produces these "fringe" games, then forgets about them and doesn't even look at them again until someone raises an issue about them. If that's the case, then just do us a favor and don't produce them so that we can all find other places to play these games. If the NASCAR game required more than 1 move every 1-2 weeks in order to be competitive, I, and likely many others, wouldn't be playing right now. The saving grace of the NASCAR game is that you usually don't alter your lineup a heck of a lot -- I've made just 2 moves through 6 weeks with my top team -- but that doesn't excuse the sloppy effort put forth by TSN to produce a quality game. BTW, I fully understand that this is a free game, but in terms of putting forth a quality product, I think TSN needs to pay as much attention to their free games as their pay games, especially if they aren't going to offer a pay version of the game, as is the case with the NASCAR game. It's fine to sacrifice some customer service and prizes and other things for the free games, but producing a far inferior game doesn't do much for the image of the TSN Fantasy Sports department as a whole.

48cancermoon
      ID: 53248219
      Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 20:44
lol Guru

ok england was a hurried example, how about sleeping in Australia or New Zealand, not that it matters, one days freeze delay wont affect the whole season, just a principle if this game is for everyone to play, then decisions should be made with everyone in mind, this decision for the freeze delay was made with America in mind only, no thought even entered their minds as to time differences in the rest of the world.

Sure they are still growing and learning and maybe aren't totally tracked for world thinking considering they give prizes to just americans, but the fact is they do allow ALL people to PAY and play, so they must think of the world when they make their decisions.
49butt
      ID: 24845121
      Sun, Sep 01, 2002, 21:45
cancermoon: "...considering they give prizes to just americans...."

Not exactly.

"To be eligible to win a prize, Game entrants must be 18 years of age or older and a legal resident of the United States or Canada. Residents of Montana, Vermont, Louisiana, North Dakota, Minnesota, Arizona, Florida, Maryland, Colorado and the province of Quebec may play, but WILL NOT be eligible to win or receive any prizes. Entrants who are between the ages of 13 and 17 years of age may register to play the Game, but WILL NOT be eligible to win or receive any prizes."
50 tommyd
      ID: 50142123
      Mon, Sep 02, 2002, 00:44
If you are looking for a new game maybe a WNBA could be feasable. It might bring in some more female players and you already have a model for it with your basketball game.
51smartone
      Donor
      ID: 29135714
      Mon, Sep 02, 2002, 08:27
cancermoon (36 & 48), I had a chance to be in EU during the season and I must tell you that these guys have a HUGE time advantage over the people in the US. I live in NY, and I can do my trades until 12 (noon), but on games that end verrrry late at night (many times west coast games end after 1-2AM eastern time) -- and I am sure that you can understand that our time in the morning (at home) and in the office is very limited. In EU, on the other hand - you can do the trades during lunch breaks or any other time during the entire day (until 6PM...)

not that I have any complaints (these are the rules and the reality) but I wouldn't complain that one day EU people had to check TSN late nite... come-on!

52KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 266182910
      Mon, Sep 02, 2002, 09:19
Am I really all that surprised that the NASCAR game isn't updated yet and that the home_good.html page is showing "0" for everyone in the division under the "Last" column?

Of course not.

It's also nice to see (0) for Division Rank change, World Rank change, and Franchise Value change on all 3 of my teams.

And why is the Driver's Price History only showing this week's change and last week's change when there have now been 6 roster freezes?

Also, I don't believe the following Driver/Car Number associations are correct and are actually somewhat of an indiciation as to the amount of attention the NASCAR games receive (actual in parentheses):

Sterling Marlin: 1000 (40)
Jeff Gordon: 600 (24)
Rusty Wallace: 50 (2)
Matt Kenseth: 425 (17)
...

Wait, I'm noticing a trend! And it only took me all of a minute to figure out! Seems that all the car numbers are being multiplied by 25 for display. There, I found and solved a bug for you. Now please fix it along with all the other bugs that are in the NASCAR game.

The state of the NASCAR game is really casting doubts for me as to how TSN is running things. It makes me wonder how many things at TSN are running in "band-aid" mode, where it's fixed just enough to get by, but isn't really fully fixed. How a game that is so similar to your other games could be so broken is just absurd, IMO.

53KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 327481911
      Tue, Sep 03, 2002, 08:42
* cough, cough * NASCAR stat update * cough, cough *
54Erik B.
      ID: 239592612
      Tue, Sep 03, 2002, 09:53
Ok, ok. I'm adding NASCAR to the list of games that need some of my attention. Thanks, you all have made your points well.

-ESB
55silver-n-black
      Donor
      ID: 297382911
      Tue, Sep 03, 2002, 10:43
Seems like the idea to extend the trade deadline started with this thread . TSN made a decision based on a request from a couple of gurupies. That sounds like good customer service to me.
S-n-B
56silver-n-black
      Donor
      ID: 297382911
      Tue, Sep 03, 2002, 10:56
Nevermind, just noticed someone else already linked to that thread here.
57KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 266182910
      Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 11:33
Erik B., it's great that TSN finally got the points updated after you gave the game your attention, but there are still a number of issues with the game.

First off, are we ever going to get something other than ( 0) for our Division Rank change, WWR Change, and Franchise Value Change?

Personally, I wouldn't mind the Franchise Value Change one being broke if the "Financial Report" page wasn't broke. What's wrong with this table:
Driver Bought Cost Sell For: Change* Profit/Loss TSNP/R
Gordon, Jeff CHE 07/20 4.25M 4.45M 190,000 200,000 Jeff Gordon
Jarrett, Dale FOR 07/20 2.95M 3.09M -10,000 140,000 Dale Jarrett
Gordon, Robby CHE 07/20 1.41M 1.44M -50,000 30,000 Robby Gordon
Bodine, Todd FOR 08/10 .96M 1.05M -190,000 90,000 Todd Bodine
Harvick, Kevin CHE 07/20 1.95M 2.64M 280,000 690,000 Kevin Harvick
Johnson, Jimmie CHE 07/20 3.08M 3.11M 160,000 30,000 Jimmie Johnson

It seems that the car manufacturer is an extra column unaccounted for in the title row. Further, even if that is worked out, I don't think that Jeff Gordon's TSNP/R is "Jeff Gordon". I'm pretty sure it's the same for the rest of the drivers.

I see now that the "solution" to the Price History page only showing the last 2 weeks was to have it just show last week. My personal preference would have been to show more weeks, not fewer, but in the end that is for TSN to decide.

Also, can you PLEASE change the bug with the drivers' car numbers? I already told you what the bug was, it just needs to be fixed. It reeks of amateurism when someone looks at the driver page of the NASCAR WC Points leader and sees Marlin's car number listed as 1000. It's even worse when you see that it's the same way for every driver and it's even further worse when anyone paying even the slightest of attention could see that all the car numbers are being multiplied by 25. Junior fans root for #8, not #200. Jeff Gordon fans root for #24, not #600.

And lastly, even though it's not an integral part of the game, the Driver "Winnings" should still be correct. Looking through the top 10 drivers sorted by price, all of them are wrong. And not just by a little bit. Most of them are wrong by over $250k and they're not wrong in just one direction. Some are overstated and some are understated by that much. It's pretty bad when I sort the Driver list by "Winnings" and Mark Martin, the only $4M man in the sport right now with $4.090M, is listed in 8th on your site with $2.633M. Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart are understated by about $400k. Again, it's not an integral part of the site, but if you're going to post the information, then it should be correct. By the way, my source is NASCAR.com.

Speaking of overstatements, I think I may have overstated the "great" part of my first sentence. Jeff Gordon, 2nd in points, is still listed on his Driver Details page as "Rank: 3". Mark Martin, 3rd in points, is listed as "Rank: 2". And now that I look at the Buy/Sell page again, the TSNP being shown aren't correct because they haven't been updated for the latest race's points, which explains the Rank problem. Why the team's stats were updated with driver points and the drivers weren't, I'll never understand.

And now that I'm looking even closer, I found another one. What's the "Penalties" category in the "Stats" on the Driver Details page for? And if Dale Jarrett and Jimmie Johnson aren't listed as having "Penalties", 2 drivers who were penalized heavily for post-race inspection infractions both in terms of money and points (which weren't deducted by TSN), then who is? I considered, for a moment, that this might be for in-race penalties, like a Black Flag or something, but then I see that Robby Gordon, who had an in-race penalty as recently as the Bristol race, is also listed as having 0 "Penalties."

Since you already gave this game your "attention", could you give it a little bit more than that? I've already had second thoughts about signing up for Hockey and I think the handling of the NASCAR game may have just solidified my stance of sticking with ESPN and Yahoo Fantasy Hockey (the non-TSN versions). If you're going to compete with the ESPN.com's and the Yahoo.com's of the business, then you need to have quality products like they do. The fact that there are trading issues with the Football game makes me glad that I've avoided what could turn out to be yet another TSN train wreck.

58KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 266182910
      Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 11:44
THIS IS RIDICULOUS!

I had $0.47M in the Bank and sold Todd Bodine for $1.05M. That gives me $1.52M in the Bank. I buy Kenny Wallace, listed on the Buy/Sell page and in his Driver Details page as costing $0.47M. The pop-up even asks me, "Are you sure you want to buy Kenny Wallace for $0.47M?" And now I only have $0.72M left over?!?!?!?!?

Yeah, it seems that Kenny Wallace actually costs $800k, but the only place I can find that out, ironically enough, is in the broken Price History page. Not even the "Price Movers" page shows the most recent price updates so that I could have looked at the difference in price on his Driver Details page (-$30k) and noticed the difference between -$30k and +$330k. Nope, the "Price Movers" page shows Wallace on the Losers side with -$30k because, as the page points out, "Prices updated on: Saturday, 8/24."

FIX THIS GAME TSN OR JUST REMOVE IT! The fact that you're making money off this severely broken game from anyone buying trades just makes me sick.

59Erik B.
      ID: 239592612
      Mon, Sep 09, 2002, 16:46
KKB:

I agree that this game needs to be improved dramatically, or we need to get out of that business. I will look into the changes you've suggested this week. And I agree with most of what you're writing.

-ESB
60Jackie Robinson
      Leader
      ID: 4942911
      Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 11:13
Is it possible to change the pitcher pricing at the first week of the season? This season a pitcher who started openning day,usually the staff ace,got killed in price because he had no buys to counteract selling after his start. Not very realistic as each sale had to have had a buy prior to openning day.
61Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Wed, Sep 11, 2002, 12:44
This is a "flaw" in the repricing algorithm for all players in all TSN games. It tends to be exaggerated with opening day starters, but it negatively influences the price changes for all heavily drafted players.

Somehow, heavily drafted players need to get an upward price bump at the beginning of the season.

But perhaps the whole topic of suggested changes for next year should be migrated to a new thread. I think I'll start one.

62Erik B.
      ID: 239592612
      Thu, Sep 12, 2002, 14:28
Guru:

I agree this is a flaw -- a flaw that we can't fix until after hoops. But it's definitely something we must do for baseball.

-ESB
63Erik B.
      ID: 239592612
      Thu, Sep 12, 2002, 14:29
KKB:

Nascar II should have all the changes made now ... Please let me know if these problems persist.

-ESB
GM/TSN Games
64KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 266182910
      Thu, Sep 12, 2002, 18:00
Erik, looks good except...

1. The "home_good.html" page is showing "0" for "Last" for everyone in the division.

2. I happened to click on the first place team in my division and they have a Franchise Value Change of "######## TSND". I know he's making some serious money, but...

3. The "No. Races" on the Drivers Details page is wrong. For instance, Jeff Gordon is listed at NASCAR.com as having 26 starts, which is good since there's only been 26 races this season, yet you have him listed as having 27 "No. Races". It looks like all drivers are that way.

65Erik B.
      ID: 239592612
      Tue, Oct 01, 2002, 16:55
KKB:

IS this still an issue? Can you email directly (ebarmack@sportingnews.com).

-ESB
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