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Subject: TSN suggestion Box
Posted by: bookie
- [1859247] Thu, Apr 10, 2003, 12:16
Since I know TSN browses the board, I thought I'd start a thread for in season enhancements to the gaming experience.
I have two things that I'd like to see:
1) On Top Managers page, I'd like to also see HT and PT columns, just like in the division page.
2) In hockey, there was a division statistics page that allowed you to view key statistics in comparison to your division mates, I really liked checking on that, so I'd like to see that added for Baseball too... |
| Only the 50 most recent replies are currently shown. Click on this text to display hidden posts as well. |
| 23 | Jeddi
ID: 21557114
Sat, Apr 12, 2003, 16:56
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Take away the -15 for a pitcher loss. The pitcher has little control over losing the game
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| 24 | Fatal Image
ID: 41143921
Sat, Apr 12, 2003, 17:07
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I want a way to see what the time is on the official TSN clock without actually making a trade. There's been a couple of times where I didn't know if I had time and ended up forgoing the trades.
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| 25 | ksoze
Sustainer
ID: 50643419
Sat, Apr 12, 2003, 17:58
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If you take away the -15 for a loss then you have to take away any points given for a win. If a pitcher has "little control over losing the game," same goes for winning it.
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| 26 | Jeddi
ID: 21557114
Sat, Apr 12, 2003, 18:01
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Alright, works for me
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| 27 | Jeddi
ID: 21557114
Sat, Apr 12, 2003, 18:08
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Actually I amend my message, why should a pitcher be punished negative 15 points for something he has no control over whats so ever? It doesn't judge how well he pitched, you can lose a 1-0 game as easily as a 11-2 game. I have no problem with a pitcher getting points for pitching well enough fro his team to win, but I do have a problem with negative points for a loss that he has no control over. It used to be this way in smallworld a few years ago but was changed. Why did they take away the blown save penalty? Same thing in my mind
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| 28 | Fatal Image
ID: 41143921
Sat, Apr 12, 2003, 19:11
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No control over it? Please. The large majority of pitcher losses are well deserved.
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| 29 | Jeddi
ID: 21557114
Sat, Apr 12, 2003, 19:22
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Do you look at a pitchers win loss record to judge how good of a pitcher they are?
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| 30 | Texas Flood
Donor
ID: 311039208
Sat, Apr 12, 2003, 19:24
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How about 1 do over for each team. God i'm off to a terrible start;).
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| 31 | Fatal Image
ID: 41143921
Sat, Apr 12, 2003, 19:39
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Not JUST the win-loss, but yes I do look at it.
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| 32 | Wilmer McLean
ID: 075249
Sat, Apr 12, 2003, 20:50
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Points for a Quality Start -- 6 innings allowing 3 earned runs or less.
TSN wants their scoring to be easily counted from the box score, but productive outs are not included in the box scores, except sacrfices and sacrifice flies. Too bad other productive outs aren't in the box scores so TSN can make it a point category for hitters.
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| 33 | Ender
ID: 13443221
Sat, Apr 12, 2003, 21:23
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I am personally against any bonus poitns for quality starts, shutouts, complete games, and the like. Guys, those points are built in. You get 15 TSNP for the 9th inning, that's your bonus for completing the game versus the guy who gets pulled earlier. Shutouts? You don't have any ER deducted, that's bonus vs the guys who gives up ER. Quality starts? 6 IP, 3ER, again same logic.
Everybody always brings up pitcher's hitting points, but they only do that when a pitcher hits one out. They never beg for it when their pitcher goes 0 - 3 with 3 K's. I'm willing to bet over the course of the season a pitcher ends up at near 0 or negative for hitting points. Sure, you might catch lightning in a bottle from time to time, but that will more than be off set by all the -9's you rack up.
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| 34 | Zio
ID: 13255303
Sun, Apr 13, 2003, 04:48
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On the "Financial Report" page, it would be nice to see the financial gain/loss of players that you have traded away.
On the "My Division" page, being able to sort by all of the columns, especially Value, would be a big plus.
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| 35 | bookie
ID: 1859247
Mon, Apr 14, 2003, 19:19
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butt.. Would like to give TSN a chance to see this thread.
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| 36 | ESB
ID: 373411610
Wed, Apr 16, 2003, 12:46
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Ok, guys, good suggestions. First off:
1) We will NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER give people the opportunity to buy additional trades/convert additional trades in Ultimate. Won't happen because it's fairly against the spirit of the game, which involves trade management.
2) Like the idea of adding trades remaining to WW leaders. Very cool.
3) I'm fairly against bonus points for Quality Starts. It creates a rich-get-richer point structure. Our current scoring system DOES, obviously, reward people for going longer distances, and I don't want to accentuate that too much.
4) I like the idea of adding key statistics relative to the rest of your division. I'll see what I can do on that one.
Thanks for the feedback. Keep it coming.
-ESB
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| 37 | Minnow
Donor
ID: 19251617
Wed, Apr 16, 2003, 18:26
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Next year maybe mix up the trade days. We've had 3 or 4 years of Tues/P and Thur/H. It beats the 5 on Wednesday thing of years ago, but at the very least flip-flop 'em. And maybe Mon/H - Thur/P to spread it out a little. Something different or a rut will develop.
I agree with the: click on the team - go to the team, not the division. With three teams that a lot of extra clicks when you're going back and forth between them.
Rouge, you're probably aware, but they have an "auto-logon" feature now. No need to enter passwords. It's a definite improvement if you can use it. Top of the screen.
-10 for an ER always seemed sort of brutal to me.
Minnow
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| 38 | Pimpski
ID: 153411718
Thu, Apr 17, 2003, 20:41
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Ok, time to update the profiles, or remove the message telling us to do so. I'm not joking around here.
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| 39 | Chestergreat
Sustainer
ID: 54321523
Thu, Apr 17, 2003, 22:18
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In the player sort TSN shows a player's price, total pts & ppg. How about adding 2 columns showing 1)current ownership number and 2) ownership number 5 days ago.
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| 40 | bookie
ID: 1859247
Thu, Apr 17, 2003, 22:51
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Thanks Erik for checking in on our little world. It's nice to know you guys are listening to the consumer.
Looking forward to the addition of some of our suggestions. ;->
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| 41 | Pimpski
ID: 313242016
Sun, Apr 20, 2003, 18:24
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On the "my division" page there is a column headed "total TSND." It would be cool if the numbers underneath it represented each manager's total TSND.
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| 42 | smartone
Donor
ID: 191119269
Sun, Apr 20, 2003, 19:39
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I've seen this remark somewhere else before, but it's good to mention it again:
1) In the "Price Movers" page, please don't show players that are in gravity, as it is of little interest to see the likes of JR House, Chris Snellig etc... while players that fall -10 are typically more relevant to the managers
2) When calculating the players in gravity, please exclude players that are held by "dead/sleeping teams". The definition of "dead teams" can be either teams who's manager didn't check in the recent 21 days or so, or a team with over 20 or so trades (any number can make sense). Hence, players that are widely held at the beginning of the year will eventually start to gravitate, although many dead teams hold them (we saw this problem in Hoops every year and I assume that exists in other games as well)
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| 43 | Bandos
ID: 39112921
Sun, Apr 20, 2003, 23:23
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"LOL, don't worry about it though, it makes too much sense.
Took ESPN over five years to put that on the player cards. Hopefully, TSN will be as slow allowing us to keep that advantage a bit longer"
Please post ownership #'s for all players and have a top 50 page for hitters and pitchers. It is an unfair advantage for programmers. Thank you.
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| 44 | Ender
ID: 13443221
Sun, Apr 20, 2003, 23:58
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Someone convince me why they should post ownership percentages. I say this as someone who has no Visual Basic Skills and runs absolutely no sampling programs at all. I also only look at those threads out of passing interest. I rarely if ever make any of my decisions based directly on the information I find there. I have been reasonably successful at this game for the past several years and don't think this info reveals any info that can't be gleaned from keeping a sharp eye on the price change patterns themselves and watching the box scores on a daily basis.
No offense to the brilliant (seriously) programmers we have around here, but I just don't see the information as invaluable. What do you learn from it that you didn't already know? So you can give an ownership % for a given player. Are you telling me you didn't know he was highly owned? What did you think the end result of 10 days of 50K+ price changes would be?
Maybe I'm wrong. Convince me.
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| 45 | Bandos
ID: 39112921
Mon, Apr 21, 2003, 00:12
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Ender,
For hitters, the ownership level is basically irrelevant. Your logic is flawless on this point. A guy goes up for 4 weeks, guess what....
About pitchers, however, the situation is different because of the 5 day average. Knowing how many buys/sells over the past 4 days is completely relevant. This allows you to know when to rotate/trade and maximize/minimize money gains/losses. Also, it allows you to see who had many sells on just one day, vs guys who had many over a period of days. This allows you to make pitcher decisions better since you want guys who are getting buys every day, thus they gain for longer. Also trends about who is being rotated vs. who is being held and etc.
These are only a few of the ways you can use pitcher sampling on a daily basis. It is essential information to compete for the top 100. I know my roster value is 200-300K lower because I picked guys up on the wrong day, one day too early and etc.
It was posted daily by KKB last year, just the pitchers. I am struggling with a sampling program right now and If I finally get it up and running I will post it daily. If some have it, we all should.
"It's more democratic" Crash Davis
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| 46 | Ender
ID: 13443221
Mon, Apr 21, 2003, 00:35
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OK, fair enough. It is more important for pitchers than hitters. And I'll confess you can see the 5 day trends better, but in the end it takes a prediction of the 5th day to know the real truth. You can get a pretty good feel for what the price change will be based on the last 4 days plus your 5th day prediction. Is roster sampling more precise? Sure, if you grab all of them, but like I said, even then it comes down to a prediction of what people will do the 5th day. Sometimes you're right, sometimes you're wrong.
I will also go out on a limb and say that TSN will NOT divulge the ownership % because it is the first step in reverse engineering the pricechange formula. The formula is proprietary and in the end is the one thing that makes their game unique. They don't have a patent on the idea of having a roster and shifting it around on a regular basis. The machine which limits the amount of change is the the price change formula and in the end is what makes them unique. SOmeone else could run a very similar game, but would have to use their own formula.
In fact, if I wanted to go a step further, all of this discussion and the demand for that info may have the reverse effect and lead to some steps to halt the ability to sample rosters. In the past, it wasn't a big deal because it took FOREVER. Now, with DSL and cable modems transfer rates are high enough for lay people that it is an issue. They have already set a precedent by going from real time rosters a few years back to the current frozen roster setup. I'm sure there are many ways to skin that cat (48 hr delay on rosters? HTML coding that hampers parsing) and I don't know enough about programming to predict there course of action. In short, I would be shocked if they provide that info anywhere, let alone on the "Your Division" page.
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| 47 | cancermoon
ID: 2239719
Mon, Apr 21, 2003, 12:43
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I agree with you Ender, it is not important at all, it is fun for the mathematically minded to play with, but I never use them myself, I actually am prepaired to lose money on a pitcher if i think he is the best pitcher for that day or week, i am simply amazed at all the people who treat the numbers like a religion and base their trades on it. As for anyone wanting to finsh in top 100 needing it, well I had all 3 teams in the top 120 last year, and never used it at all.
Anyway one thing i'd like TSN to do is show how many trades each team in the basic game have used, for example if a guy is 2000 points clear, has he been brilliant , or just used heaps more trades, i think this makes the playing field a little more fair, and may even encourage more players to keep buying their trades thinking they have a chance, as they will know those guys far out in front have actually wasted all their trades, or not.
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| 48 | D
ID: 45055216
Mon, Apr 21, 2003, 13:01
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If TSN could block the sampling programs I believe it would lead to a better fairer game.
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| 49 | The Pink Pimp
ID: 59346179
Mon, Apr 21, 2003, 22:47
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D, I gotta disagree with you on that one. One of the
things that has made the game as good as it is now is
the simple fact that we can sample the rosters.
Without the ability to sample rosters and look at the
numbers we'd never have any idea if the crucial
formulas were ever changed on the fly during a season.
The only thing that makes a trade in the bank valuable
is that it will have the same value later on. As an
example, If the price change formula were to be
changed in such a way as to lower gains then all of the
trades you are holding have just gone down in value.
How fair would that be?
The ability to sample has at least one undeniable side
effect. It keeps the programers honest.
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| 50 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Tue, Apr 22, 2003, 07:30
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allow managers from all over the world to receive prizes, as they pay exactly the same bucks of americans to play......or at least, if you can't send us the prizes, give us a discount code to purchase future teams for your games......it doesn't seem a big trouble, does it?
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| 51 | cancermoon
ID: 2239719
Tue, Apr 22, 2003, 09:13
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I think it would take them 5 minutes to find out the rest of the world let their people gamble, it is just America & Canada that has such restrictions on people in certain states, yet they are the two countries allowed to play, go figure. I think they'd need to take a huge chunk for withholding tax though before they sent foreigners the cheques.
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| 52 | clv
ID: 03482211
Tue, Apr 22, 2003, 14:14
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response to # 49
the problem here lies in the fact that it IS, in fact, unfair for TSN to allow roster sampling for people who use these sites, and then not have that information available to all who participate in the game...the points that have been made here and on the message boards that several have made has to hold water somewhere...i agree that the simple numbers on % owned shouldn't be a reason for making a trade, however, if some have access to sampling, all should...if for no other reason than it keeps the playing field level...i'm one of the many who are just beginning to really get hooked on the game, but have very limited computer, sampling, or pure statistical knowledge...it just seems to me that in order to allow EVERYONE that plays a chance to compete for the top 100 at the end of the year, that TSN should at least offer links for managers to gain access to the information...it is somewhat lazy, i'll agree, but just think it would create more interest and better competition
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| 53 | Ender
ID: 13443221
Tue, Apr 22, 2003, 20:30
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If TSN would just assign everyone 300 TSNP each morning instead of basing it on MLB performance it would be a fairer game and level the playing field. If they only offered 5 pitchers and 9 hitters it would level the playing field. All these managers who have played for several years and know the fundamentals of the game are unfair. It's unfair that some people get up in the morning and read the wire services, check the box scores, check the daily matchups, look at the statistical splits (home vs away, etc...). I don't know how TSN can let this go on!
I don't begrudge anyone their ability to program and read 17,000 frozen rosters while I would have to resort reading them 1 at a time at about 56K. If I don't like it, I can go learn the programming. I think it's silly to expect TSN to do that work for me. This level playing field argument is sad IMO. I don't mean to offend anyone, but it's pervasive in society these days. I see it as a teacher and a coach. If you want to do better or have better resources then go out and make it happen. You have the ability, you just choose not to do the work that the roster sampling gurus do.
It's a whole different argument as to whether it's good for TSN. As I said, it could result in reverse engineering their proprietary algorithm. That should concern them and I doubt they will simply provide the info to everyone which would only serve to increase the likelihood that their algorthim is divulged.
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| 54 | J
Leader
ID: 49346417
Tue, Apr 22, 2003, 21:25
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In the TSN Draft & Trade game, it would be helpful if the sort by rank was actually useful. They need a rank based on this years stats that changes daily.
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| 55 | Bandos
ID: 39112921
Tue, Apr 22, 2003, 21:31
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Ender -
Your argument is a classical fallacy used these days by radio talk show hosts - it's called the straw man. You set up those who feel that being able to program is an unfair advantage as being equal to any of your other obvious sarcastic comments. Everyone CAN reads the wires (or pay to do so), everyone CAN learn from playing the game in the past and reading the posts, and everyone can read box scores etc. I asked a computer programmer to help me write a program and got the response that it would take a few days work. This is from someone who knows how to write in the computer language(s) required. How am I supposed to learn that?
As a teacher and coach also I think you should understand how much limited time I have with a wife, family, house etc. Baseball is my main hobby, both coaching it and following it. I don't have the time to "If I don't like it, I can go learn the programming." I have already spent several hours trying to make it work so don't accuse anyone of being lazy.
While I have very rarely agreed with your arguments and comments on the board, I have found them at least fair. This one was not. Your argument is a fallacy and thus fallacious. The things you equate can not be equated. Effort is different from a skill that people go to college/grad school to aquire.
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| 56 | Ender
ID: 13443221
Tue, Apr 22, 2003, 22:06
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The bottom line is you wish you had the skill that others do. Why should TSN change the game so that people with less skill can compete with those with more? There are always going to be people who have advantages over you in life. You know that by now.
I am not a programmer. I think you would be surprised at ow easy it is to get an application such as Excel or Access to parse a web page. The it is a matter of having the application tabulate the data it collects. It certainly does not take a college degree, seriously. It would take a weekend with an Excel for Dummies book and some trial and error. I'm not trying to insult the guys who have put together these sampling apps, but it isn't as difficult as you make it sound.
As a teacher and coach, I instruct my players and students to be independent learners. If there is something they want/need to know it is their responsibility to make the effort and learn the skill or material. There are people and resources to help them. We try and make it easy by putting them in the classroom each day and make them a captive audience to instruction. I do my best to guide them and present the material in an easily understood manner, but in the end if they don't make the effort, it just isn't going to happen.
I'm sorry if you don't have the time. I don't either. I don't think TSN owes it to me to provide the info to me. They give you the price changes. You can see the trends. Do you need Pink Pimp to tell you it's time to drop Hernandez now that his gains have leveled off or to pick up Jimenez because he gained triple figures 2 days in a row? You sound as if you think that roster sampling is the Holy Grail of TSN fantasy sports. It's not. People have won this game year in and year out without it. You should have played when you could sample rosters before the freeze each day. You could accurately predict the price gainers by running a sample an hour before freeze. Richard has been the king of roster sampling since back in those days. Ask him what his best finish is (sorry Richard, no slight intended, I just know you haven't finished #1). Bottom line is that I think you are overestimating the value of the information, at the very least compared to good old fashioned baseball intuition.
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| 57 | Ender
ID: 13443221
Tue, Apr 22, 2003, 22:14
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Bandos, the first paragraph in post 53 was not meant to be a convincing logical argument. It was meant to be sarcastic and somewhat humorous. Sorry you didn't find it funny. I didn't think anybody would have taken it seriously though, that wasn't the point. It's just not TSN's job to level the playing field in the way that you are asking. They essentially provide the info you want by publishing the price changes each day. Surely you have a feel for ownership percentage based on the price changes and can make a reasonable prediction of the next day or two based on what you see on the field or money making trends in the market. If not then that is where experience comes in.
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| 58 | APerfect10
Leader
ID: 70412023
Tue, Apr 22, 2003, 23:25
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I asked a computer programmer to help me write a program and got the response that it would take a few days work. This is from someone who knows how to write in the computer language(s) required. How am I supposed to learn that?
I'm not sure what programmer you spoke with, but my sampling program took me less than an hour to code from scratch. Btw, I do not claim to be a good programmer, because I am not. Also, I knew little to no VB before the project...
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I think TSN should provide every user with ownership percentages, even if some people feel there is no value in it. They now provide sortibles, they now provide the top 100 roster values, yesterdays top teams. Personally, I do not feel roster sampling is all that useful, but I don't think you can argue that the top 100 roster values page and/or the yesterdays top teams pages are more valuable. So why not?
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I want TSN to offer division prizes again. Taking away the division prize has done nothing but make the game more individualized. While I enjoy the individual aspect of the game, I also enjoyed the team part. Owners now do not want to join "good" divisions because their chances are greatly reduced/eliminated of coming in first in their division and winning a mere $50. How much would it cost TSN to return the division prize to the top X divisions or whatever. Hell, raise prices by $0.50 and return the division prize!
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| 59 | Ender
ID: 13443221
Tue, Apr 22, 2003, 23:42
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You know what, I think I have gotten away from the spirit of the thread. It is after all a suggestion box. I am being argumentative in a wish list thread. Somebody smack me. Everyone is entitled to their own wishes, even Bandos :)
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| 60 | Bandos
ID: 39112921
Tue, Apr 22, 2003, 23:50
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lol Ender;)
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| 61 | clv
ID: 03482211
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 10:36
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Ender, I think you missed the point of my comment...I absolutely agree that the managers who do the most homework SHOULD be rewarded...the problem I have is that EVERYONE who plays the game paid the same amount of money for their teams as the guys on this board...I don't have any problem whatsoever with you being able to do roster sampling at all...the problem I have is that some of the managers who might be capable of competing for the top 100 don't have the necessary tools. IF I had sampling knowledge, I'm certain I'd be a better manager. As I said before, I don't think that knowledge would NECESSARILY affect my trading decisions, but it could, therefore the lack of it hampers my ability to compete. I have no problem spending extra time if I choose, pouring over the information, and likely would if I had it. My point is that the same people will be the ones competing for the "ultimate" prizes year in and year out, therefore the playing field is NOT level for each and every person that plunks down $ 19.95 (or whatever amount you chose to). For those of us who are getting hooked on the game, it is very easy to become disillusioned when we realize we have no chance whatsoever to compete for anything other than a division prize. That's EXACTLY why I only purchased one team - I can enjoy playing much more knowing that I only "wasted" 20 bucks, rather than having "blown" 50 or more.
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| 62 | cancermoon
ID: 1242115
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 11:06
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clv it wasn't a gurupie that won Ultimate last year, and I would guess he probably doesn't do sampling either, everything the sampling tells us, can be pretty easily worked out just by looking at the numbers already given by TSN, infact the sampling may even suck some people into trades that they otherwise would have known to stay clear of. The winner also didn't have the largest RV either, not even close to it, so really RV and smapling are not what makes a winner, luck and good statistical sense make a winner in my mind.
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| 63 | clv
ID: 03482211
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 13:33
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Cancermoon - you pretty much reflect the thoughts that I've had all along...I'm not entirely sure what the magic number for rv is, but the approach that I've taken to this point is to pick up one stud or "keeper" at a time with the extra money I've made...to this point, it's allowed me to build to having nomar, manny, bernie, soriano, and v wells on offense, all of whom I envision keeping for the duration (barring injury, of course)...I think I've done a pretty good job of following the trends (so far), but think that I probably would have been one of those "on top" of those trends rather than a day behind with the information...I guess the problem for me is that since I've never followed the second half closely, I'm kinda on the fence about whether to give more weight to trades early/late in the season, rv early/late in the season, etc...as I said before, my statements were in no way a "gripe", mainly just to point out that my opinion is that the managers who do the best job with their homework SHOULD win anyway, so why not make the information available to all - and leave it up to them whether they take advantage of it - thus eliminating any chance that the perception that someone had an advantage over someone else becomes a non-issue.
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| 64 | clv
ID: 03482211
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 13:34
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Cancermoon - you pretty much reflect the thoughts that I've had all along...I'm not entirely sure what the magic number for rv is, but the approach that I've taken to this point is to pick up one stud or "keeper" at a time with the extra money I've made...to this point, it's allowed me to build to having nomar, manny, bernie, soriano, and v wells on offense, all of whom I envision keeping for the duration (barring injury, of course)...I think I've done a pretty good job of following the trends (so far), but think that I probably would have been one of those "on top" of those trends rather than a day behind with the information...I guess the problem for me is that since I've never followed the second half closely, I'm kinda on the fence about whether to give more weight to trades early/late in the season, rv early/late in the season, etc...as I said before, my statements were in no way a "gripe", mainly just to point out that my opinion is that the managers who do the best job with their homework SHOULD win anyway, so why not make the information available to all - and leave it up to them whether they take advantage of it - thus eliminating any chance that the perception that someone had an advantage over someone else becomes an issue.
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| 65 | clv
ID: 03482211
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 13:36
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Sorry guys...mistakenly posted before I caught the double negative in the last sentence.
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| 66 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 34071820
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 13:37
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clv, use "Self-Edit" to delete the extra post(s). Top o'the page, middle.
pd
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| 67 | clv
ID: 03482211
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 14:54
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I see it now...thanks.
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| 68 | S-n-B Just Lurkin'
ID: 297382911
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 16:11
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I just couldn't resist.
re #63 "I'm not entirely sure what the magic number for rv is"
Everyone knows it's 85 million.
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| 69 | clv
ID: 03482211
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 16:23
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Not trying to be a "smartass" S-n-B, but what are you basing that number on ??? I'm a second year player, but in all honesty a rookie, as I had absolutely no idea what I was doing last year...I didn't know the TSN message boards were there, much less that this site even existed...I guess what I'm looking for are tips on how the better managers got to that point without asking anyone to reveal their "guarded" secrets or doing the work for me...I've seen others mention 85-90 million, I just wonder how they arrived at that number.
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| 70 | Bandos
ID: 422571916
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 16:31
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He's joking clv - there was a thread with no analysis attached about 85 mil being the magic number - it got flamed by everyone but somehow survived a long time.
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| 71 | S-n-B Just Lurkin'
ID: 297382911
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 16:33
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No prob clv, I'm the one being a smart-ass, like I said, I couldn't resist. Go back to page 6 in this forum and look for a thread entitled 85 million.
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| 72 | holt
ID: 26328618
Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 18:40
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In addition to total TSNP, it would be nice to have the actual statistical breakdown (AB, HR, SB, IP, K - etc. etc.). I can't believe we aren't provided with this. For a stat-head like me it is a bit of a let-down.
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Post a reply to this message: (But first, how about checking out this sponsor?)
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