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Subject: Stupid Trade offers
Posted by: Eugene
- [283392012] Sun, Apr 27, 2003, 15:51
I recently in a yahoo message board asked for a top closer.I have Smoltz,Biddle and Baez and wanted 1 more since Acevedo is losing his closer to Rivera soon.
He offered me Borowski,Carter and Mac for
Sosa,Clemens and Hairston.Have you guys been offered any bad trades like that this year?? |
| 1 | J
Leader
ID: 49346417
Sun, Apr 27, 2003, 15:56
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I was offered Alex Sanchez for Matt Clement.
Got a good laugh outta me.
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| 2 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sun, Apr 27, 2003, 16:47
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The problem is that all players are viewed differently. With Rivera's injury history, I wouldn't give up Acevedo without a player I can use. Who knows if Rivera will even be effective when he does finally come back. I'd hold him just in case.
That leads me to my next point where all players are valued differently. Also, you tend to like your players more than you should perhaps. When you get an offer, I think you should look at your team and the numbers of those players before discounting them. When I get a lopsided trade offered, I usually try to counter. Perhaps the offer was a starting point to leave room for negotiations? If I can't or nothing will work--I'll tell them why I can't make the trade.
Nothing irks me more than someone who thinks the trade is lopsided to go off on me. I will usually not trade with that person for the rest of the year. It happens all the time. For example, in the Dirty Dozen league this year I offered what I thought a more than fair offer for Rafer Alston. That manager proceded to go off on me and rave about Alston being the best player in the game. Well not 15 days later, Alston was waived by this manager while my player hit a hot streak and was very valuable to me coming down the stretch.
This year in baseball, I've only had one person in all my leagues act like that. First it was Acevedo who I was trying to move for a hitter with speed in Roberts. This person had extra OF and needed a closer IMO. Well perhaps it wasn't a good offer from me, but the response I got was less than...well I won't go on.
Sometimes it will obviously be one-sided. I've offered trades I thought I was giving up way too much and the trade was rejected. I've also offered a trade where I thought I was coming out a little better than him but he needed the stats I was giving up and it was accepted. Players are valued differently, period.
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| 3 | Pimpski
ID: 381351212
Sun, Apr 27, 2003, 18:16
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Some guy in my league tried a couple times
offering guys like Benny Santiago for Percival,
and a few days ago when Bonds missed
some games, he tried giving me Bonds for
Vlad. Nice try, but it's irritating.
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| 4 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Mon, Apr 28, 2003, 11:19
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Bonds for Vlad? How is that stupid? That's not mismatched per se. Reject it or counter if you don't like it. Bonds will tend to homer more and certainly get on base more. Vlad will steal more bases. I like Vlad a little better head-up, but if my team needed homers and had the rest of the cats., I'd consider it.
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| 5 | Bodacious Tatahs
ID: 3349318
Mon, Apr 28, 2003, 12:36
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I was offered Derek Lowe and Jose Hernandez for Arod and Washburn. They were willing to take Washburn off my hands if I'd throw in Arod. What do you say to a moron like that?
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| 6 | Mike D
Donor
ID: 38044119
Mon, Apr 28, 2003, 12:57
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How bout “no thanks?”
;)
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| 7 | Farn
Donor
ID: 7822711
Mon, Apr 28, 2003, 12:58
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gee, sounds like a steal Tatahs. Maybe you could throw in a Maddux or Smoltz though just to even it out a bit. :)
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| 8 | Pimpski
ID: 381351212
Mon, Apr 28, 2003, 14:25
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Ref, if you were to check out the first 3 picks from all yahoo drafts, you would probably see Vlad picked as one of them 99% of the time, and Bonds much less. Maybe somebody more familiar with the site can dig up the actual numbers. Point is, Vlad is absolutely more valuable.
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| 9 | Stud For Hire
ID: 441361313
Mon, Apr 28, 2003, 14:54
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Yeah, but the unit was probably in the top 3 in 99.9% of all leagues, and I doubt Soriano cracked the top three very often. looking back I'd say Soriano is as valuable as anybody, with maybe the exception of A-rodd. Unit, although still capeable of returning to his former dominance, looks more like a late first rounder than a top 3 guy. Draft postion means nothing at this point in the year bro. I'd give vlade the edge, but not by much. Vlade for Bonds is as even as a trade gets if you ask me. I hear what you're saying about getting the offer when Bonds was dinged up, but my trade strategy is always buy low. should have tried to low ball the guy with a second and third rounder while barry was hurting.
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| 10 | Khahan
ID: 3127107
Mon, Apr 28, 2003, 15:26
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Pimpski, once you are done with the draft, the rounds and spots that players were picked in are almost irrelevant. I participated in 5 drafts this year, my lowest pick (somehow) was 4th. I took Vlad in 3, A-rod in 1 (with the 1st pick) and Schilling in another (because Vlad/arod and johnson were all picked).
But on 1 of my teams right now, I'd trade Vlad for bonds w/out a second thought. Why? That's just the way my team shaped up. I've got Dave Roberts and Derek Lee and Johnny Damon and Edgar Renteria. That's great for SB, even w/out Vlad. But not so hot for HR. I'd trade Vlad for Bonds straight up for the extra 15-20 HR he'll hit. All things considered, I doubt I'd miss the SB (even the 25+ more that Vlad will get) all that much.
Once the draft is over, the order of the picks doesn't not mean all that much. How your team is playing and what stats you are slumping in is way more important.
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| 11 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Mon, Apr 28, 2003, 16:33
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Khahan, thanks for your post. You saved me the time. Btw, in one league I got to pick 2nd and I got Vlad myself. I like Soriano better than anyone right now though. In fact he was #1 on all my drafts and I didn't get him in any league--so I drafted him in TSN. ;)
Point is, I am much more attuned to numbers than Pimpski might think (Not as good as Mike D. though!) and RJ is not taken #1 that frequently. In fact I had a few players over him in my draft.
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| 12 | Pimpski
ID: 381351212
Mon, Apr 28, 2003, 19:45
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Good points guys; I guess I perceived it
wrong.
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| 13 | The Left Wings
ID: 6142019
Mon, Apr 28, 2003, 19:54
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A "stupid" offer is just the beginning of trade talk. He's telling you who he's interested in without telling you who he's willing to give up. This is basically saying "I want this player, who do you want for him?" You don't have to take these "offers" as an insult. Just make a counter offer of who you want from him, if you're interested in trading the player he wants.
I am one who would make borderline stupid offers. I wouldn't want my first offer get accepted within an hour, cuz that would probably mean that I gave up too much.
Someone will say that one can post in the message forum if he wants to initiate trade talk. But the problem of that is that other people will be able to see what's going on, and some may try to interfere by making superior offers that they may not have offerred if they didn't know who you are aiming for.
So, don't take a Sanchez-for-Clement offer as an insult. He's just asking for the price for Clement.
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| 14 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 49132614
Mon, Apr 28, 2003, 20:16
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Doing that nonsense is a silly waste of time, IMHO, TLW. If you are at all a judge of talent and potential, you should be able to come up with a reasonable offer on the first try. If someone offers me garbage for quality, I assume they are trying to snooker me or they think I am clueless. Both I take as insulting, and will often break off negotiations and avoid trading with them in the future.
I almost always attempt to make an offer that on some level could be percieved as a good trade for both parties. Otherwise I am just wasting the dudes' time, and risking alienating him.
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| 15 | RecycledSpinalFluid
ID: 42121814
Mon, Apr 28, 2003, 20:28
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"the extra 15-20 HR"...Bonds is good, but not that good. Outside his 73 HR season he has put up at-best 49. Bonds Last 5 season: 37, 34, 49, 73, 46 for 5 year average of 47.8 with the severely bloated 73 HR season. Vlad will get right around 40 (+/- 5). Vlad last 5 years: 38, 42, 44, 34, 39 for a 5 year average of 39.4.
47 vs 38. Eight more kacks. Drop the best for each and it is 41.5 vs 38.3. Three more kacks.
For me, I wouldn't move Vlad for Bonds without some other motivation. But like it has been said, it all depends on your teams situation.
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| 16 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Tue, Apr 29, 2003, 11:21
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Also, if you're using OBP as a cat., Bonds get a lot of walks where Vlad takes his cuts. I do like Vlad better, but in the right situation, I'd get Bonds over Vlad.
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| 17 | Khahan
ID: 3127107
Tue, Apr 29, 2003, 11:50
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I almost always attempt to make an offer that on some level could be percieved as a good trade for both parties. Otherwise I am just wasting the dudes' time, and risking alienating him.
There is some truth in this. This is where a lot of people fall down in trades. If they see a Vlad or Bonds being asked for they expect a vlad or Bonds type back.
The problem with that is, there are only so many players you can use. In one league for example, I've got an OF of Vlad, Abreu, Damon, Dave Roberts and Vernon Wells. We've got 3 OF slots and 1 utility slot. That means, 1 of those guys is sitting on my bench every night. I just accepted an offer this morning for Vernon Wells. I don't think I got 'fair trade' value for him (and joe crede). But the player I got offers me versatility at 2nd, SS and 3rd. I can use him every day. PLus it opened up a roster slot so I can grab a FA. On the surface the deal looks like Vernon Wells/Joe Crede for Aaron Boone. But, its actually Wells/Crede for Boone + a FA pick up. Or, Its 2 of my bench players who are getting me 0 for a guy I will use.
People just have to realize there is more to a fair trade than simply crunching this number vs that number. If a trade looks like a rip off based on the names of the players, take a look at a few other factors.
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| 18 | Comeback Kid
ID: 23946239
Tue, Apr 29, 2003, 12:16
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I have Jeter on my team and after he got hurt someone offered me Tony Womack, Edagrdo alfonso, and Larry Walker for albert pujols
I already had aaron boone (in addition to pujols) as an eligible 3rd baseman, so I don't even know what I was supposed to do with alfonso. This is a point based league so alfonso's generally better batting average doesn't matter, boone's superior power makes him a higher scorer. In any case, womack was a worse option than many free agent shortstops, and the outfield downgrade from pujols to walker CLEARLY outweighed whatever upgrade I was supposedly getting from alfonso and womack (this was before Pujols injuries cropped up)
I was pretty offended. It hadn't even been announced yet whether Jeter was going to have surgery. 3 for 1 deals generally annoy me, you can't add up the value of the 3 guys and compare it to the 1 guy without factoring in that one team has to drop 2 players and the other team gets to sign two free agents.
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| 19 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Tue, Apr 29, 2003, 12:16
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Exactly Khahan!
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| 20 | The Left Wings
ID: 6142019
Tue, Apr 29, 2003, 16:02
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As I said, you shouldn't get offended. He's just asking for the price for Pujols without telling you th upper limit of what he's willing to give up.
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| 21 | culdeus
Donor
ID: 1738718
Tue, Apr 29, 2003, 16:37
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Kip Wells for Miguel Tejada.
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| 22 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Tue, Apr 29, 2003, 16:40
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TLW, I don't think you should get offended per se, but also you gotta at least throw someone in there that's worth something. You can't throw in a player that no one would even pick up on the FA wire if he was there. But I also agree that to some it's a starting point.
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| 23 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Tue, Apr 29, 2003, 16:41
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Something else is good to know too, if I have a hoard of SS and they are too good to drop--yet they are not able to get in the lineup--I'd generally take a lot less than their worth to help another category/position.
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| 24 | Comeback Kid
ID: 23946239
Tue, Apr 29, 2003, 17:32
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I think in some instances it might be a little too charitable to give the benefit of the doubt that a lopsided offer is a "starting point."
The offer I mentioned deserved no such benefit of the doubt (plus, he even emailed me with a lame attempt at explaining why it would be good for my team)
If you want to offer Tony Womack to an owner who just lost Jeter, that's fine, try to get a serviceable starting pitcher or lower tier outfielder or soemthing. But needlessly overcomplicating it to try to pull a superstar is bad form says I.
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| 25 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Tue, Apr 29, 2003, 17:36
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CK, I think no one in their right mind would think someone could steal your player from you. Maybe their not in their right mind. I've put a couple trades out there in the past 3 or 4 days offering a pretty decent hitter for a starting pitcher. Both of those teams need a stick like I'm offering in the worst way but the pitcher I'm asking for is pretty decent--not a stud--but getting some good numbers. You just don't know what their mindsets are. I've actually worked out more trades via AIM when I can talk to the person first and find out what they want and who they could give up then send them a trade out of nowhere.
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| 26 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Tue, Apr 29, 2003, 17:42
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their=they're then=than I've been doing that all day!
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| 27 | beebop
ID: 8317251
Tue, Apr 29, 2003, 18:09
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Astacio and alfonzo for Rolen
vinny castilla and ramon ortiz for rolen, looper
alfonzo and ortiz for rolen and looper
jt snow for jason giambi
all from the same owner.
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| 28 | The Left Wings
ID: 6142019
Tue, Apr 29, 2003, 18:12
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Say something in the text box when you reject the offers. Counter offer if you're interested in trading Giambi, Rolen and Looper.
What's the going rate for Runny Hernandez anyways? I can't seem to trade him away.
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| 29 | beebop
ID: 8317251
Tue, Apr 29, 2003, 18:21
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yea, i did that, but u dont come back with another offer that is just as bad as the first one.
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| 30 | The Left Wings
ID: 6142019
Tue, Apr 29, 2003, 18:31
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Well then he's really screwing around then. What I'm trying to say is that one shouldn't get offended by the first unreasonable offer.
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| 31 | SillySpheres at Work
ID: 582492810
Tue, Apr 29, 2003, 18:33
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TLW:
I just managed to unload our friend Runny. I traded Runny and Mesa for Smoltz in my 12 team 5x5. The owner seems to love to jump on hot pitchers (Loiza, Sturtze, Pavano, Kiney, etc) and he loves to trade so he was the perfect candidate. I dont even need saves, but I took the opportunity to get rid of a waiver wire pick and my 2nd best closer for Smoltz.
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| 32 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Wed, Apr 30, 2003, 12:19
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SS, I think that is a great trade for both owners. Obviously he was in the market for a pitcher. In two of my leagues where I need a little more support from starting pitchers, I've made an offer for Loiza. Looked at others including Runny and others, but just so happened that the teams that had Loiza, I thought I had a pretty good hitter they could use. If he's a flash in the pan--which very well could be, he will def. get the better of the deal--but if he continues awhile longer, it could be a wash--which is great for both of us.
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| 33 | J
Leader
ID: 49346417
Wed, Apr 30, 2003, 12:52
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In the league where I was offered Alex Sanchez for Clement I was just offered JT Snow for Clement (different team)
So, taking TLW's advice... I countered with Clement for Manny. :)
We'll see what happens...
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| 34 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Wed, Apr 30, 2003, 13:36
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J, that counter could work depending on the team and what each team's needs are. Now if he comes back and blasts you for your offer, you know you're not dealing with a reasonable manager and you simply should keep that in mind when trying to deal with him in the future.
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| 35 | Tree, also @ work
Donor
ID: 599393013
Wed, Apr 30, 2003, 13:50
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bebop, post 27 - Astacio and Fonzie for Rolen...
not sure why that's a silly offer at all...seems like the ideal 2-for-1 deal, but obviously who else is on your roster makes a difference.
both are solid players - Astacio a great #3 starter, and there's no way Fonzie continues to hit as poorly as he has all season. if i needed an SP to beef up my staff, i'd take this deal.
peace,
Tree
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| 36 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 19359309
Wed, Apr 30, 2003, 13:52
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i find that most 2-1 deal or 3-1 deals are bad depending who you have to drop. If you have a scrub it is ok, but seems stupid to except astacio if all your pitchers are as good or better then him.
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| 37 | Khahan
ID: 3127107
Wed, Apr 30, 2003, 13:55
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SS, I think that is a great trade for both owners. Obviously he was in the market for a pitcher. In two of my leagues where I need a little more support from starting pitchers, I've made an offer for Loiza
Ref, before you start giving up too much for Loaiza, take a close look at his month by month splits. Who knows, maybe this is the year he bucks the trend. But he's always been a 1st month pitcher.
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| 38 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Wed, Apr 30, 2003, 14:34
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Khahan, I need a pitcher and have too many hitters--esp OF to get into the lineup. So even if I do lose a smidge if you look at the players head-up, I have players that are good enough to start that aren't getting in there now. But I will take a look, thanks!
Sometimes I offer 2-1 or 3 for 2 and ask that person to counter with their worst player so I have first chance at them instead of having to wait for waivers.
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| 39 | SillySpheres at Work
ID: 582492810
Wed, Apr 30, 2003, 16:16
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Ref:
I think it was a fair trade, although I my motivation for proposing the offer was that Runny will not keep up his success. It was a classic buy low - sell high trade on my part.
If I were in your position, I would not trade for Loiza. As was pointed out by Khahan, Loiza's splits after may are pretty bad. I think you would be better served by looking for a more established pitcher who is having a down year. Maybe Washburn or Lowe?
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| 40 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Wed, Apr 30, 2003, 17:12
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SS, you may be right, I could be buying high. Problem is finding a team that has a pitcher that can help me that they can afford to get rid of and having a need that your player can help fill.
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| 41 | SillySpheres
ID: 58512252
Thu, May 01, 2003, 09:23
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Just received this gem this morning in my 20 team H2H league that counts OBP and Slugging instead of BA and holds were added for pitchers:
I get:
---
Mayne, Brent
Urbina, Ugueth
Williams, Bernie
I give:
---
Benitez, Armando
Bonds, Barry
Hall, Toby
So Benetiz and Uggie is a wash more or less, Hall and Mayne gives an advantage to Mayne right now, but Bernie for Bonds? Bonds is pretty much the best player in this league b/c we count OBP and Slugging and Bernie is good, but no Bonds.
I didnt instantly reject the trade b/c I am trying to see if there is anything I could do for a counteroffer.
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| 42 | Khahan
ID: 3127107
Thu, May 01, 2003, 09:39
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SS, maybe offer an OF other than Bonds.
In your other comments:
Maybe Washburn or Lowe?
How are they established? 1 great year is a sign of things to come. 2 great years is maturing. 3 years is dependable. 4+ years is established.
Lowe, in my eyes (as a Red Sox fan) has established himself as an on again/off again pitcher. This is definitely shaping up to be an off again year.
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| 43 | SillySpheres at Work
ID: 582492810
Thu, May 01, 2003, 10:49
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Khahan:
Maybe I was off in saying established. I really meant pitchers who did well last year, but have slumped this year. I was in a rush when I suggested Washburn and Lowe and I couldnt think of any truely established pitcher that has had an off year that Ref could get without rearranging his whole team.
Now that I am not in a rush, I still cant think of any. Maddux was a candidate, but hes turned things around. Glavine has been solid since his poor opening outing. Garcia? Can you think of any?
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| 44 | Caper
Donor
ID: 1535108
Thu, May 01, 2003, 10:51
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Wade Miller
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| 45 | SillySpheres at Work
ID: 582492810
Thu, May 01, 2003, 10:52
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yup, Caper beat me to it, I just remembered Miller.
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| 46 | Athletics Guy
ID: 28446118
Thu, May 01, 2003, 21:02
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Some guy offered me J Moyer for A Soriano around the all-star break last season. Ridiculous!
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| 47 | teddd
ID: 40433310
Sat, May 03, 2003, 12:34
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Yes Ref Guru, I was the one that you made the terrific offer to, of Aaron McKie and Charlie Ward for Rafer Alston and Karl Malone. Was I high on Alston at the time? Absolultely. Was I wrong? Yep, but with the injuries on the Raps I thought he had the oppurtuntity for more playing time then it turned out. Did I drop him 2 weeks later? No, probably closer to 5 weeks. But was Alston really the key to laughable offer? I don't think so. And did Ward and McKie hit some hot streaks that made them invaluable to your team later on? I don't think so. In fact, after that trade wasn't made you proceded to do a free-fall in the standings led by the exploits of Ward and McKie.
Oh well, you're free to bitch even if you do leave out the important details. ;) Peace
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| 48 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sat, May 03, 2003, 12:56
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omg, you are nuts. that was not the offer and you know it. free fall? that league was no fun at all. how are you supposed to be interested when no one talks, no one offers any real offers and were there 2 trades in that league?
I'm going to waste my time with supposed experts and make an offer like that? Who is the one leaving out the details? And Terry did help me coming down the stretch. Just too bad no one cared enough to make that league fun. Maybe we'd have paid more attn to it. If it wasn't for the email alerts, I would've forgotten about it long before the season was into it's 2nd month.
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| 49 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sat, May 03, 2003, 12:59
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Btw. Free fall, but I was still in the top half of the standings. At least when the season was over there were 2 msgs of congrats to the winner so it wasn't totally dead.
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| 50 | MNG@othercomputer
ID: 29092519
Sat, May 03, 2003, 19:21
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I was offered Prior, Blalock, D'Angelo, and Koch for Gumbi, Aboone, Williamson, and Nomar
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| 51 | blackjackis21
Leader
ID: 493502314
Tue, May 06, 2003, 14:37
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Quick question: Fair/unfair/not enough info.?
Team A gives Jim Thome to Team B for Loaiza and Kris Benson. Team A has Todd Helton and pitchers: Millwood, Washburn, Wakefield, Escobar, J. Schmidt, Sheets, Jennings, R. Reed, A.J. Burnett.
Standard scoring 5X5 yahoo league starting 7 pitchers. I like Team B's (getting Thome) end of the trade. Any thoughts appreciated.
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| 52 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 49132614
Tue, May 06, 2003, 14:47
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I wouldn't give up Thome, but it's not worth a veto, if that's what you are asking.
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| 53 | Khahan
ID: 3127107
Tue, May 06, 2003, 14:53
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Team A has a lot of flexibility with Thome and Helton both. I would not accept that offer it was made to me, but I certainly wouldn't veto it.
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| 54 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Tue, May 06, 2003, 15:03
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I would rarely consider vetoing a trade. I have done it once and I ended up reconsidering my decision and allowing the trade afterall.
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| 55 | blackjackis21
Leader
ID: 493502314
Tue, May 06, 2003, 15:18
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Thanks guys - I imagine most responses will go something along those lines - don't like the trade, but wouldn't veto. I should have also indicated the Team A has the ability to (and currently does) start both Helton and Thome - one at the Util. position. Without Thome, Team A would have to start one of: Brad Wilkerson (also 1B eligible), JD Drew or Adam Kennedy.
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