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Subject: What constitute Collusion
Posted by: Khahan
- [3127107] Tue, May 06, 2003, 13:44
Ok, I'm a league commish in a yahoo league. The issue of collusion has come up once or twice but always proven not to be the case.
A recent trade just was accepted between the first place team and a team in 8th place (out of 10) who appears to really have no hope of digging himself out of the hole. Essentially, it was the 8th place teams best pitcher and player with the most trade value.
The first place team is trading away a handful of players w/ little to no trade value who were off to hot starts but have cooled off and not done much in the past 2 weeks.
One member of the league has already objected citing a feeling of collusion as his reason.
For other commissioners out there, what constitutes collusion for you? |
| 1 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 49132614
Tue, May 06, 2003, 13:48
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If it is obvious that the 8th place team is just giving his players away, with no benefit to himself, then I would call it collusion. It is a pretty high hurdle to clear, however.
It is very early in the season, and even the last place team still theoretically has a chance to win, so it may be that he is wieghing early-season performance too heavily and trying to get some depth. It that case, it is stupidity, not collusion.
Who are the players involved.
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| 2 | Tree, also @ work
Donor
ID: 599393013
Tue, May 06, 2003, 13:48
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personally speaking, i'm not sure how 5 weeks into the season ANYONE is out of it.
but i guess that doesnt answer your question...
peace,
Tree
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| 3 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Tue, May 06, 2003, 13:53
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Look at the 8th places team. If those 5 players that play every day will help them more than that guy he's trading (and the guys he will dump), accept the trade. Otherwise, veto it.
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| 4 | Khahan
ID: 3127107
Tue, May 06, 2003, 13:55
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Its a proven stud pitcher (team ace from the NL Central) going to the first place team. In return, the guy giving up the stud is getting a 1st/OF. Meanwhile he has Palmeiro at 1st and OF of Mondesi/Andruw Jones/Jose Cruz/Johnny Damon.
He's getting a #3 starter from a non contending team and a an upgrade at SS. The SS he is getting is not one of the Holy Trinity and not even one of the next 2-3 guys.
I know its kind of vague, but I don't want this to turn into a: the trade is fair or unfair discussion.
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| 5 | chode
ID: 38047612
Tue, May 06, 2003, 14:10
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... but isn't determining if a trade is fair/unfair the first hurdle in determining collusion? If the trade is close to fair on its face, you can't successfully argue collusion.
To make an informed assessment, people in the forum need to know the players involved, not vague (and subjective) references to players' and teams rankings.
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| 6 | Dec
ID: 23421613
Tue, May 06, 2003, 14:21
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I will object every trade I feel I won't do if I was one of the traders. If there is 3 or 4 objections in the league, the trade should be reject.
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| 7 | Khahan
ID: 3127107
Tue, May 06, 2003, 14:26
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You have a point chode:
Here's the trade
1st place team gets: Matt Morris
other team gets: Raul Ibanez, Cory Lidle and Alex Gonzalez (Marlins).
He's dropping floyd and clayton. 1st place team has #1 waiver priority and has already announced he's taking Floyd.
Other teams only real pitchers were Morris and Mulder.
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| 8 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 49132614
Tue, May 06, 2003, 14:32
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It's all about Alex Gonzalez. Mr. 8th place could legitimately be over-valuing him, without any collusion.
Dumb trade, imho, but not veto-able.
Dec - that would be just about any trade offered, imho. It is rare that both sides truly do benefit, though it does happen. Often it's a high-risk versus low-risk strategy between the two trading partners. In this case the high-risk is that A. Gonz is the real deal. He's not, but such is life.
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| 9 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Tue, May 06, 2003, 14:34
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I wouldn't veto it. It has to be a huge stretch for me to veto a trade and what happens if Morris goes out and gets hurt tomorrow? Lidle has his streakiness and AGonz is on fire and remember what Raul did last year?
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| 10 | chode
ID: 38047612
Tue, May 06, 2003, 14:41
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I wouldn't vote to veto it either. Seems similar to one that went in my league - Wes Helms + Rocky Biddle for Ryan Klesko (NL-only). Maybe Biddle (or in your case Alex Gonzalez) keeps up this pace, but I doubt it. The other guy has to have the opportunity to take that chance though. Bad deals are made all the time, but without blatant proof of collusion you can't disrupt the free market.
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| 11 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Tue, May 06, 2003, 15:47
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Essentially, you have to evaluate this trade as
Morris, Floyd, & Clayton
vs.
Ibanez, Lidle, & Alex Gonzalez
I don't see any reason to veto.
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| 12 | Rogue Nine
ID: 14454523
Tue, May 06, 2003, 15:59
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Its actually not a terrible deal.
Gonzalez is better then Clayton. Maybe A Gonz won't keep it up, but even if he slows down he's still a better option then Clayton. (A much better option.)
Ibanez is better then Floyd. Ok, not talent-wise, but stat-wise this year I'd put my money on Ibanez. Floyd has been hurt, and nobody on the Mets seems to want to play hard anymore.
Morris is clearly better then Lidle.
Obviously the team getting Morris is at the advantage here, but its isn't such a terrible deal that I'd suspect collusion. In 8th place you have to take chances, and #2 is reducing his depth.
Other then this so-so deal, has there been anything else to suggest collusion? Dropping Floyd and letting the team he's dealing with grab him isn't so bad... He could have included him in the deal. Instead he's forcing the 2nd place team to waste his WW priority.
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| 13 | Khahan
ID: 3127107
Tue, May 06, 2003, 16:21
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Rogue Nine: yes, there has been. Last season these two managers were caught in collusion. And there was no doubt about it then.
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| 14 | Farn
Donor
ID: 7822711
Tue, May 06, 2003, 16:24
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if there is a history of it that changes everything. But it also makes me wonder why you let somebody in your division again who cheated in the past?
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| 15 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 10261612
Tue, May 06, 2003, 16:32
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in my opinion Alex Gonzalez will not continue to play at the level he is playing at now.
Raul Ibanez is better then Floyd, but not that much better. I believe Floyd will turn it on sooner or later. Maybe he just hasnt adjusted to NY yet.
Morris is much much better then lidle. I feel this trade is very bad, especially since floyd will be picked up immediately so the trade technically is
morris and floyd for lidle, a gonzalez and ibanez.
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