| 0 |
Subject: Weekly Chat: What's the role of umpires?
Posted by: Chuck
- Donor [44450814] Mon, May 26, 2003, 00:22
I will start off by admitting that I never have been nor never will be a professional baseball player. Those of you that are/were or have aspirations to be, or just play regularly may see things differently that I do.
However, I generally consider myself a baseball purist. I don't particularly like the DH and I love seeing complete games.
One thing that really bugs me, though, is how lenient umpires are sometimes, many times under the guys of a pitcher having a reputation or the like.
First, w/ balls & strikes being called:
I don't like the idea of electronic stuff where the umpire relays the message of the electronic scorer. In fact, I'm not huge on every umpire having the exact same strike zone. While that would be ideal, it's not realistic.
However, I think every umpire should call balls and strikes consistantly, regardless of who's pitching. I don't think Greg Maddux should get a pitch just b/c he's pitched for more than 10 years and, say, Matt Kinney should not, just b/c he doesn't have the reputation. That philosophy just makes the strong stronger and the weak weaker.
I also hate the "neighborhood play." I realize that preventing injury is the reason for it, but almost any time it takes place, it's in the context of a double play. At times, a player is 3 feet away from the bag and its called.
On Sunday there were some plays where the ball beat the player to the bag, but the player slides in under the tag. That player is not called out-- in fact there was a play at the plate (I think in the Hou-ChiC game) where he was safe at the plate b/c the guy slid in under the tag. I think that was called properly.
However, I think you need to call things the same way at 2nd base, too. If it means a player can't turn a double play b/c of it, so be it. I don't think we need to give an unfair advantage to the fielder.
I may be in the minority here, and there may be something I am totally missing, but I see times when first basemen pull off the bag before they make a catch and the runner is called out b/c the throw beat them. Why should we reward a fielder for laziness if/when a hitter is hustling.
So am I the only person like this, or are there others bugged by these things as much as me? |
| 1 | Tree
Donor
ID: 384102119
Mon, May 26, 2003, 09:01
|
Chuck - i think all the things you've talked about are sort of an extrapolation (sp?) of over 100 years of baseball.
over this time, all these things you've mentioned, which may have begun at barely microscopic differences, have grown to very obvious ones, whereas the pitcher has to know the traits of the umpire calling the B&S that day, what his temperment is, etc etc.
as for your example - well, if the players is 3 feet away from the bag when called out, he's out. i know that's a rule. not sure where in the rulebook, but i'm almost certain that if you're 3 feet away from the bag, you're out.
as for calls at the different bases, while i'm unsure, i think there has ALWAYS been a large difference, between, say homeplate and second base. you can smash into the catcher and end his career in an effort to jar the ball loose. and that's accepted - you'll have a brawl on your hands, but it's well within the rules. on the other hand, i'm not so sure you can do that if it's at second base.
just my opinions,
peace,
Tree
|
| 2 | Ref
Donor
ID: 27016179
Mon, May 26, 2003, 12:18
|
Chuck, I'm with you. I hate the neighborhood play. It's a sport, you're paid a lot of money. I know we don't like injuries, but look at football, the WR goes up for a high catch and he doesn't catch it because he's worried about getting drilled in the ribs by the DB. Should we count that as a completiong when he drops it? OF course not. If you don't touch 2nd with the ball, then it's not an out. Same thing with the ball beating the runner. I was brought up that if it's not a force out, you had to tag them. ;)
Same thing with the DH, if you don't play the field, you don't bat. Ever hear that when you were growing up? These are basic concepts that are inate with the game of baseball--yet get screwed up at the professional level.
As far as balls and strikes go. I do believe that there is a universal way balls and strikes are supposed to be called and think it should be that way with all umpires. OF course they are going to miss plays/pitches, but they're human. As long as we know what is supposed to be, I think we can all live with some kicked plays now and then. What irritates me is when they intentionally give the outside strike to guys like Maddux. Hell, he's had a great career, and I'm sure he'd adapted had he not gotten that call, but he's even greater because he's been able to live 6" outside!!! That being said I really like him.
I think the umpiring has improved dramatically with the consolidation of MLB umps rather than al and nl umps and let's be honest, all those umps they fired, they kept the ones they wanted and accepted the resignations of the ones they didn't. Sometimes when you have so much tenure, it's really impossible to fire you--no matter how bad you are. There are so many umps that are much better than some old MLB umps that are just lacking experience at the MLB level. Same with other Pro sports.
|
| 3 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 2345588
Mon, May 26, 2003, 12:26
|
I gotta stick one thing in here (I love the DH, but this has nothing to do with that): MLB has gotten one thing right, by sticking with wooden bats.
pd
|
| 4 | Chuck
Donor
ID: 44450814
Mon, May 26, 2003, 12:36
|
On a side note:
I really like what the Cubs are doing w/ Brooks Kieschnick (or however you spell his name). I think with more & more players coming out of HS, you will see these hitting pitchers a lot more over the coming few years. It just gives so much more flexibility. It's almost the opposite of the DH-- pitchers intentionally in there b/c they can hit.
...the pitcher has to know the traits of the umpire calling the B&S that day...
Sometimes they just call the BS that day, too.
I would think MLB would almost have to stay wooden bats all the way b/c of injury risk. Watching the college softball WS the other day, I saw a pitch shatter an aluminum/metal/alloid bat. Imagine what could happen if that occured in an MLB game.
|
| 5 | Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 2345588
Mon, May 26, 2003, 12:38
|
I think they can kiss many hitting records goodbye if they went to metal bats, as the colleges did.
pd
|
| 6 | darkside
Leader
ID: 524512610
Mon, May 26, 2003, 13:16
|
very interesting article about Schilling, umpires and the umpire evaluation system:
espn article
|
| 7 | Astade
ID: 214361313
Mon, May 26, 2003, 14:57
|
Darkside, i read that article last night and was shocked at the news.
I guess I wasn't too up-to-date on discussion during Spring Training, but the system is news to me!
I have schilling on a couple of roto teams,
and I will strongly consider benching him against good teams that he plays at home.
His split stats this year really favor him on the road because of what they did at Bank-One
|
| 8 | Razor
Donor
ID: 411149818
Mon, May 26, 2003, 15:40
|
Schilling doesn't need to be complaining about getting squeezed. He has certainly been the beneficiary of many favorable calls the past few years. Schilling knows the score; he studies umps. I'd say he intentionally pitches where he does because of his knowledge of the umps' varying strikezones. He'll adjust, just like Maddux and Glavine did.
|
| 9 | Chuck
Donor
ID: 44450814
Mon, May 26, 2003, 17:33
|
There is one thing that is valid to his gripe though, Razor, and that's what you've just said. He studies the umpires & does his homework. Why should he get punished by a regulated system only at some ballparks? If they are going to use these, use them consistantly.
Also, don't use this system to judge umpires during a game. Have them call the game as they normally would. Then, afer the game, go over the tape and work on refining calls that way.
There is not going to be "perfection" when it comes to umpiring. But use these as tools, not standardized tests.
|
| 10 | Robber
ID: 43420819
Mon, May 26, 2003, 17:55
|
Anyone know which are the other 12 ballparks this is installed in.
|
| 11 | Wilmer McLean
ID: 075249
Mon, May 26, 2003, 23:46
|
"Son, when you throw a strike, Mr. Hornsby will let you know it." -- Umpire Bill Klem, to a young pitcher who complained that anything Rogers Hornsby didn't swing at was called a "ball" by Klem. Hornsby batted .358 lifetime.
If I remember correctly, a year or two ago there was a "neighborhood play" involving Soriano that cost the other team a victory. Replays showed that Soriano clearly didn't touch second base on a DP and the runner wasn't even near Soriano.
I caught a mistake by an ump on a Met game the other day. On a dropped third strike Vance Wilson tagged the batter with his glove while holding the ball in his other hand. The umpire called the batter out.
A good thing homeplate umpires do for the catchers -- umps sweep the plate or ask for new baseballs whenever a ctacher is nicked, bumped or bruised.
|
| 12 | icer
ID: 15331119
Tue, May 27, 2003, 00:59
|
stupid whiny umpires... about time they got held accountable for something. theyre almost as bad as hockey referees.
|
| 13 | Astade
ID: 214361313
Tue, May 27, 2003, 03:41
|
I've been trying to figure out which parks actually use UIS,
which is operated/installed by QuesTec.
It's nowhere to be found :(
It appears that Questec has already installed some sort of technology in atleast 23 ballparks,
but the UIS is used only in 13 parks.
If anyone is interested in the technology, here is the company website:
QuesTec
unfortunately, i couldn't figure out the exact link,
but for info check out Products-->UIS and News -->2/14/01
|
| 14 | The Pink Pimp
ID: 91127165
Tue, May 27, 2003, 05:28
|
Found a partial listing in this article
Anaheim, Boston, Cleveland, Houston, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Oakland, Phoenix, St. Petersburg and both New York stadiums
That's 11 so there may be 2 more
|
| 15 | Robber
ID: 43420819
Tue, May 27, 2003, 08:45
|
Thanks Pink.....looked in quite a few places and came up empty.
|
| 16 | Code Cracker
Leader
ID: 1701629
Tue, May 27, 2003, 14:01
|
According to this article the QuesTec system will be used in 10 different ballparks.
MLB is the only sport that I know of that doesn't take the rules very seriously. Until 2001 the umps called any pitch above the belt a ball even the rules clearly state that the top of the strike zone lies midway between the belt and the top of the shoulders. The umps were directed to call the "high strike" two years ago and quit calling pitchs wide of the plate a strike as they were doing so much at the time. It would take a 42 inch bat to reach some of those "strikes".
Calling balls and strikes depending on who is pitching is ridiculous. Call the game consistently and you will be respected as an umpire.
The "in the neighborhood" out call is just as bad. If his foot is not on the bag the guy is safe, simple as that.
Can you imagine what would happen if the umps in Little League, high school or even college called the games like the big league umps do? They would be followed to their cars and worse by the fans.
|
| 17 | rockafellerskank
Leader
ID: 40416212
Tue, May 27, 2003, 14:06
|
Can you imagine if the WRs 2nd foot "was in the neighborhood" of the back line of the endzone?
|
| 18 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Tue, May 27, 2003, 15:09
|
Being an official myself, I don't mind being graded objectively. Everything is so subjective on so many calls and evals that it's troublesome.
That being said, MLB umpires have the highest % of correct calls (based somehwat subjectively I guess). I heard it was over 98%. But aside for balls and strikes, their job could be the easiest of the major sports. Don't know as much about hockey, but football and basketball have to be on the lookout for plays constantly. Sometimes a non-call can be just as important as a call made and those aren't graded unless obviously missed. It is so much harder to officiate than I ever knew. I get better and better every year and yet every year I learn so much more. That's why experience can NOT be discounted. Experience is very important, but not THE MOST important aspect to the best adjudicaticator IMO. Many guys need to call it a career. Some are so set in their ways that they don't want to change for anything, but I always try to remember who is paying me. When in Rome, do what the Romans do. Especially if you want to be a part of the empire!
|
| 19 | Gman15
Leader
ID: 1531677
Tue, May 27, 2003, 15:23
|
Code Cracker - college baseball "in the neighborhood" and "ghost tags" are just as prevalent as in MLB. My son told me that he only tagged about 1/3 of all the runners on a steal. He laughs when the runners get upset - it's part of the game. Nobody follows umps to their cars to complain.
|
| 20 | Code Cracker
Leader
ID: 1701629
Tue, May 27, 2003, 15:41
|
Gman - so they're wrong too. Good to know that incompetence abounds. After all, the umps there are in training for something better, high paying MLB jobs.
|
| 21 | Chuck
Donor
ID: 44450814
Tue, May 27, 2003, 15:48
|
Ref-- even if some ball & strike calls are "hard," a good 60-70 % have to be easy ones. Additionally, it is their job. So even if it's hard, it's their specialty. They should be working to get things right.
Agreed that football and basketball esp. must be tough to officiate. But even if the % is 98 for baseball, it shouldn't be that difficult. There's a box. If the ball goes through that box, it's a strike... every time. If it doesn't, it's a ball... everytime. I would think just by so much reputation you could get used to the same thing over and over again, 250 pitches/game, 2 games/ week.
Maybe have the umpires practice with this ball & strike system. Find out what they've been calling wrong. Settling for mediocrity "because it's always been done that way" is a horrible way to perform at a job. I venture to say that 90% of people settling for mediocrity at the here would be risking their jobs (or at least punishment). Why shouldn't we hold umpires to a high standard as well?
|
| 22 | Gman15
Leader
ID: 1531677
Tue, May 27, 2003, 15:53
|
I think you missed the point - it is an accepted part of the game. You imply that people will be upset with these calls - from my experience, they aren't. It is far from incompetence. Why is it such a problem for you as long as the umpires are consistent?
|
| 23 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Tue, May 27, 2003, 15:57
|
Chuck, from what I gather it's that they've been taught all their careers, to "go and get" certain pitches for strikes. And to let the higher pitch go for a ball. The machine won't let them call those pitches they've been trained to call for strikes. I don't buy that argument. You know how many times the NBA rules have been changed and officials have to adjust? Many times in the past few years alone. I think they easy calls or in the 80 percentile too.
What is amazing is the speed to which things occur at the professional level. Things happen so fast, players are so quick and that baseball is moving at times in the upper 90s. Some pitches come back over when everyone has given up on the ball. It's just a re-training issue I believe for the most part, but that doesn't slow things down.
I agree with your post though.
|
| 24 | Code Cracker
Leader
ID: 1701629
Tue, May 27, 2003, 16:05
|
No, the point is they are not calling the game by the book. I agree it is done all the time but people who don't stop at stop signs do it all the time too.
They are also not consistent either. One guy thinks within 2 feet is fine, another says 3 feet.
Incompetence is a bad term. Let's just say that they aren't calling the game by the book and it has been accepted by the powers that be that it is ok.
Time to change the rule book to reflect this. Wait, let's make up our "rules" as we go along.
The point of this thread was to mention things that bug you about umpires. This bugs me but obviously not you. That is okay. Life goes on.
|
| 25 | Gman15
Leader
ID: 1531677
Tue, May 27, 2003, 16:36
|
Code Cracker - I agree with your assessment - there are very few things that happen in a baseball game that bug me, certainly not ball/strike and safe/out calls. Overall, umpires do a great job.
I think the comparison of enforcement of baseball rules to enforcement of rules in other sports is a bit unfair. The unique nature of baseball along with its storied history tends to make it different from all other sports. I enjoy the differences and the "latitude" that umpires give and are given.
|
| 26 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Tue, May 27, 2003, 17:03
|
I agree with Gman to an extent. But I also think that Baseball umpires rules are more cut and dry and give less lattitude for interpretation as a whole. However, I also STRONGLY agree with the "differences and latitude" officials are given to this extent. I don't want to see robots. I want to see some uniqueness. People aren't there to see the officials, but you know how much I enjoyed hearing Red Cashen's "First Doooooooooooooooown!" The quick tempored Joey Crawford who is a great guy, a good official, but is VERY firm and let's no perceived funny business go unpenalized. I like personality. While I think Sports Center's catch pharases have gone overboard, and I don't want to have certain officials think they are the show, let me see that windmill "and 1" from Ronnie Nunn. The Crossbar TD from Jerry Markbright. I even enjoy Joey's brother Jerry Crawford getting into arguments in a MLB game. I like the tall ump (name escapes me) stand up to call his strikes. Dutch Rennart screaming Sttttttttttttrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiike Oooooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnneeeee so loud I can hear it on radio. It adds flavor to the game.
I also agree with CC in the inconsistancies.
Consistancy is huge for me. Most players will adapt (or foul out or strike out etc.) to the way an offical is calling the game. As long as they set the tone and continue that during the course of the game. What's really difficult is when they grow inconsistant during that game. That happens sometimes in hoops because players aren't wanting to play and it starts getting out of hand and officials will ahve to "tighten" things up (call it closer and permit less contact before deeming it a foul). That is construed as inconsistant at times but needed to try to keep the game under control.
|
| 27 | Micheal
ID: 412281014
Tue, May 27, 2003, 17:57
|
I also hate the "in the neighborhood" call. If safety is the issue (a bad excuse), then it should apply to first basemen. They should be allowed to put their foot in the area of first base so that they do not collide with the runner on a bad throw that puts them in the base path.
|
| 28 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Tue, May 27, 2003, 17:59
|
If it's all about safety, why aren't bases flat? why take a chance at spraining an ankle by rolling your foot off the bag?
|
| 29 | Gman15
Leader
ID: 34421190
Wed, May 28, 2003, 01:07
|
I know I'm in the minority, but I love this discussion. I believe the difference between the "in the neighborhood" and "ghost tag" plays at second base vs. the routine plays at first is that there is a runner coming right at the fielder at second vs. coming at the base at first. Really less of a safety issue at first base. Again, I'm not sure it is as much a pure "safety" issue as that it has grown to be accepted over the years that if the ball reaches the fielder before the runner arrives, the fielder will get the out call regardless of whether he applies the tag to the base or the runner. To me, it is part of the beauty of the game to see the acrobatic plays around second base (why let the technicality of the rigid rule get in the way?). Again, I realize I am in the vast minority on this issue.
I agree with Ref wholeheartedly - I don't want to see "robots" or machines calling games. I love the human element of The Game.
|
| 30 | Razor
Donor
ID: 411149818
Wed, May 28, 2003, 01:07
|
From ESPN.com , echoing my sentiments in post 8:
Sandy Alderson, executive vice president of baseball operations in the commissioner's office, said the change in operators wasn't significant, that only a working knowledge of baseball and computers was necessary.
"If you are a baseball fan and subscribe to AOL, you can operate the system," Alderson said. "It's not about the system. It's not about the umpires -- the umpires have never been more accurate and more consistent about the strike zone and the rule book than they are today."
"What this is about is about is Curt Schilling wanting pitches that are balls, called strikes. If that's what he wants, he should go to the rules committee. Otherwise, he should stop whining and go about his business."
Schilling should definitely be fined for this.
|
| 31 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Wed, May 28, 2003, 11:58
|
Excellent post Razor, I didn't see this article! Thanks.
|
| 32 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Wed, May 28, 2003, 12:01
|
Speaking of robots, when I played baseball, we always wanted to know how the ump was calling the pitches from the first couple of hitters. The worst news was when they were calling the low as I could not hit the low ball very well. Don't know how many times I got caught looking on a pitch that was low when he hadn't been calling them that way or I was moved to leadoff. With the standardized strike zone, you never have to burn a few at bats (or a few pitches/walks) trying to figure out how the ump is calling them.
|
| 33 | Chuck
Donor
ID: 44450814
Thu, May 29, 2003, 14:50
|
I just thought of another non-call that really bugs me.
Supposedly, if a player does not try to get out of the way of the pitch, they don't have to be awarded first base. It seems now that a lot of players are leaning into pitches b/c they have so much armor. It would change this if they do not always award first base.
|
| 34 | Ref
Donor
ID: 100261311
Thu, May 29, 2003, 14:56
|
Chuck, I see that all the time. There is actually training that some people go to where they are taught how to do this. They use whiffle balls apparently. Vina is pretty good at it, but like you said, those elbow "armor" guards don't even make you sacrifice some pain! In fact, I've seen pitches that may have been strikes go for a HBP!
|
| 35 | Mazer
ID: 3242289
Mon, Jun 02, 2003, 12:02
|
According to the source given in post #14 #16
Thanks The Pink Pimp and Code Cracker.
Here is a list indicates which stadium has the QuesTec system.
Stadium with QuesTec system:
AL
Anaheim
Boston
Cleveland
Kansas City
New York
Oakland
Tampa Bay
NL
Arizona
Atlanta
Houston
Milwaukee
New York
San Francisco
|
| 36 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 49132614
Mon, Jun 02, 2003, 15:17
|
There was an article at ESPN that has the Braves blasting QuesTec now.
A quick and dirty analysis of park factors last year versus this shows no obvious pattern in these parks, and, if anything an non-significant decline in production. This suggests that Schilling and the Braves are full of hot air.
|
| 37 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sat, Jun 14, 2003, 10:30
|
I had no idea that Questec's zone is different in every park. That defeats the purpose of haveing a unified zone.
link to Yahoo article
|
| 38 | biliruben
Sustainer
ID: 589301110
Sat, Jun 14, 2003, 10:36
|
The read that the VP of the umpire association (or some such) quit yesterday due to Questec.
|
| Rate this thread: | If you wish, you may rate this thread on scale of 1-5. Ratings should indicate how valuable or interesting you believe this thread would be to other users of this forum. A '5' means that this thread is a 'must read'. A '1' means that this is a complete waste of time. If you have previously rated this thread, rating it again will delete your previous rating. If you do not want to rate this thread, but want to see how others have rated it, then click the button without entering a rating, or else click here. |
|
|
|
Post a reply to this message: (But first, how about checking out this sponsor?)
|
|