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Subject: Holy Smoking Guns...Steriod testing results
Posted by: RecycledSpinalFluid
- Dude [204401122] Fri, Nov 14, 2003, 00:37
Players' results trigger automatic steroid testing next season
Well, I guess more than Barry and Gagne are on the juice. |
| 1 | Da Bomb
ID: 339511119
Fri, Nov 14, 2003, 00:41
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"MLB said of 1,438 anonymous tests this season,
between 5 and 7 percent were positive".
"New York Mets reliever Mike Stanton didn't think
steroid use had been that widespread."
I'm actually surprised the results are that low.
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| 2 | RecycledSpinalFluid
Dude
ID: 204401122
Fri, Nov 14, 2003, 00:41
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"MLB said of 1,438 anonymous tests this season, between 5 and 7 percent were positive."
"A positive rate of 5 percent is hardly the sign that you have rampant use of anything," said Rob Manfred, baseball's executive vice president for labor relations.
1 in 20, so about 1 per MLB roster. I wonder if the 1438 included minor league testing.
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| 3 | Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 30792616
Fri, Nov 14, 2003, 00:54
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Only MLB, I believe (minor leaguers already are covered under a different CBA, and have automatic testing already).
Much larger than I expected. I was thinking 3-4%.
pd
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| 4 | Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 30792616
Fri, Nov 14, 2003, 01:01
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If you are not careful, your ears get really big, like this:
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| 5 | Punk42AE
ID: 36635522
Fri, Nov 14, 2003, 01:02
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HAHA PD, I was just about to post something about he can hear the fans in Milwaukee with those ears, but what's he gonna do.
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| 6 | Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 30792616
Fri, Nov 14, 2003, 01:04
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Lots of captions for that one. Saaaay, that's a good thread idea. I'm going to find a good picture of the Bud-master and do a "Post A Caption" thread.
pd
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| 7 | Razor
Donor
ID: 571035132
Fri, Nov 14, 2003, 10:04
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Steroid usage isn't that low. That's just the shmucks that got. The whole damn league could be on THG and nobody would've been caught this year. We'll see if this steroid program has any teeth now. If users aren't outted and suspended, then this program is worthless.
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| 8 | Khahan
ID: 3127107
Fri, Nov 14, 2003, 10:14
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"A positive rate of 5 percent is hardly the sign that you have rampant use of anything," said Rob Manfred, baseball's executive vice president for labor relations.
...
Its a contractual issue that testing is now mandatory based on breaching 5% in the random testing. Whether or not it fits the Labor Relations perception of 'rampant' is irrelevant.
Aside from that, Rob Manfred's statement seems to make light of, or dimiss drug use in baseball.
Oh wait a second, if all players are tested, many of them might have to stop using steriods. If they stop using roids, their numbers go down. If their numbers go down, their salaries will go down.
I see a trend. Its a conspiracy. I'm even willing to be the Labor Relations board is the main distributor!
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| 9 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Fri, Nov 14, 2003, 10:18
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Key to me is this:
"The newly discovered steroid THG was not tested for, and baseball cannot retest because the samples weren't saved. But it already has been added to the banned list for next year."
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| 10 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Fri, Nov 14, 2003, 11:47
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Depending on the steroid, it can stay in your body for only days or weeks or even months. Baseball has announced testing and 5-days apart. Also there is no off-season testing. This means that the player can take steroids all off-season, stop before camp and still get the benefit of it while lifting while at camp. This is a pretty measly watered-down version, but at least there is something there. Also the first time they get caught next year there is no reprecussions--only treatment.
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| 11 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sat, Nov 15, 2003, 20:27
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Very interesting article about it. I would post the link but not all can get here so I've posted the story...
Major League Baseball announced Thursday that more than five percent of major league players tested positive for steroids this year, triggering automatic testing starting next season. SI.com asked Sports Illustrated senior writer Tom Verducci, who covers baseball for the magazine and wrote the June 3, 2002 cover story on steroid use in the sport, for his reaction.
SI.com: Will players will be surprised by these results?
Verducci: No I don't think they'll be surprised at all. I think everyone would have been surprised if the number had been below the five percent threshold.
SI.com: Will these results and the automatic testing program they trigger actually change player behavior? Or will it drive those who have used steroids to try different performance enhancements?
Verducci: I think it's going to do a little bit of both. I think it will discourage some players from getting involved with basic steroids. It will also push some others to circumvent the testing, be it by using more sophisticated masking agents, other designer steroids, human growth hormone or even Andro, which is not on baseball's banned list. The new testing program will turn some players away from using steroids, but it will convince just as many to find creative ways to beat it.
SI.com: Under the new plan, a first positive test for steroid use would result in treatment and a second in a 15-day suspension or fine of up to $10,000. Are these penalties enough of a deterrent?
Verducci: I don't understand why there is a "second chance" embedded in this testing process. Every player is put on notice about what is not allowed. It's clearly spelled out, and steroids are not something you ingest by accident. I believe that there should be punitive measures attached on the first offense. After they test positive for the first time, players are placed on what they call a clinical track. They meet with professionals to discuss steroids. I don't understand why that leniency is built into the process.
SI.com: No player hit 50 homers for the first time in a full season since 1993. It that an indication that even the threat of testing had some of the desired effect?
Verducci: I noticed, anecdotally, as did many others, that a few players were noticeably smaller and less puffed up this past season than in previous years. But you have to be careful and not always associate steroid use solely with home run hitters. Pitchers are using steroids as well. And batters use steroids to quicken up their hands and their swing. Steroids are used for more reasons than just trying to hit the ball 500 feet.
SI.com: How much of an effect have the testing programs already in place in the minor leagues had?
Verducci: Again, I think it just makes athletes more sophisticated about circumventing the test. The testing is certainly a hurdle and a discouragement. But those who want to use banned substances, in both the minor and major leagues, will find away around them. That has happened in other sports ? including sports such as football and track and field, which have much better testing programs. People still use banned substances, and few of them are caught.
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| 12 | Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 30792616
Sat, Nov 15, 2003, 20:29
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The more I think about it, the more I think a first offense being treatment only is a bad idea. This is not a physically or mentally habit-forming drug, and treating it as such is not the right approach.
What's the "treatment" to consist of? "Don't get caught again"?
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| 13 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sat, Nov 15, 2003, 21:15
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basbeall drug testing is an absolute joke.
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| 14 | Khahan
ID: 451027515
Sat, Nov 15, 2003, 23:15
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Ref, apparently some anti-doping drug czars agree with you 100%
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| 15 | Revvingparson
Sustainer
ID: 59856912
Mon, Nov 17, 2003, 13:43
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Interesting: "real records"
Here's a little bit from the article:
Curious that Mark McGwire lost touch with home runs after abandoning his security blanket "nutritional supplement."
Curious that Sosa resorted to a corked bat this season and hit 40 home runs, his fewest since 1997, a full 18 under his average for the five previous years.
Curious that Roger Clemens, full of fire at age 41, has decided to retire.
Curious that Jason Giambi this year seemed smaller, played smaller.
And won't we be curious next season? It will be Bonds' first after being called, along with Giambi and other high-profile athletes, to testify to a grand jury investigating a San Francisco Bay area company suspected of designing steroids undetectable by tests.
To think, all these years we've argued about Pete Rose.
Next to this elephant, Pete Rose is an ant.
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| 16 | Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 30792616
Mon, Nov 17, 2003, 13:49
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You sound paranoid, revving!
McGwire, of course, had a bad back and weak knees. He knew it was time to go.
Clemens decided in Spring Training that this would be the last season. I don't think it had anything to do with testing, and I've never hear anyone accuse him of using 'roids.
Sosa obviously was a cheater, but if he was on 'roids he probably wouldn't need a cork bat, would he? Sosa's change came a couple of years ago when he learned how to hit instead of trying to bash the ball everytime up. Ironically, he started hitting the ball more consistently (not farther), which is what I'm told happens when players stop trying to hit home runs.
Giambi? I'm not a Yankees fan, so the farther he falls after such a big Yankee Savior buildup the better as far as I'm concerned.
pd
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| 17 | Revvingparson
Sustainer
ID: 59856912
Mon, Nov 17, 2003, 14:10
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paranoid, just because I keep hearing noises come from my computer, opps forgot to turn the speakers off:)
I would add to your arguments pd that several ballparks have gone up in the last 5 years of so that have perhaps helped to inflate some of the hitting stats.
I would agree that Mac's downfall was his knees and back, not supplement problems.
As for Giambi, I couldn't get him on my keeper team so I hope all the reports are true and his demise has already begun.
Now about those noises....
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| 18 | Razor
Donor
ID: 5810151714
Mon, Nov 17, 2003, 16:01
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"Learned how to hit" or "changed his approach" is just a thing people to cover up for potential steroid users. I don't think Sosa and Bonds "learned how to hit" the ball 400-500 ft 60 times a year. That argument completely ignores the fact that these guys have been intentionally beefing up so they could hit the ball harder. I'm sure Bonds himself would credit his extra ability now to extra strength. Where he got that extra muscle from is the matter that's up for debate. He claims it is hard work and a steady diet of zinc and creatine.
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| 19 | Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 30792616
Mon, Nov 17, 2003, 16:12
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Haha. Yeah. Well, the truth is that hitters can actually get better at the major league level, often along the lines that I pointed out.
The real danger that these steroids pose is that real accomplishments get tainted with that kind of language.
Is Thome a 'roid user? Piazza? Green?
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| 20 | Razor
Donor
ID: 5810151714
Mon, Nov 17, 2003, 16:16
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Actually, I've heard Thome's name batted around in steroid rumors. And Giambi's consistently comes up. If there's one slugger I'd bet wasn't using, it'd be Green. He looks like he belongs in another decade. If he packs on 25 lbs., the rumors will swirl about him too.
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| 21 | Razor
Donor
ID: 5810151714
Mon, Nov 17, 2003, 16:19
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That is, until we get serious, legitimate testing with serious and public consequences.
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| 22 | cancermoon
ID: 399111620
Mon, Nov 17, 2003, 16:55
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How did steroids help Bonds:
*Gain such a high batting average?
*Have such a high bat speed?
*Hit lefties with a 385avg when he use to be average vs lefties?
* Gain enough discipline to BB that much?
The weird thing is Steroids should help him with HR's yet he hit more HR's in 1993 than he did in 2003. More at bats ofcourse, I think maybe he is on a dodgy supplement maybe, but i think his training regime is the real reason, he hits the ball so sweet, he doesn't club it.
Razor why did you mention Bonds learning to hit the ball 400-600ft 60 times a year? Bonds has only ever hit more than 50 HR's one time in his career. I think that one single season when he hit 73HR's has really clouded a lot of people's brains here.
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| 23 | Razor
Donor
ID: 5810151714
Mon, Nov 17, 2003, 17:19
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Do any of your questions need answering? Steroids mke you stronger. Stronger means you have better bat speed. Better bat speed means you can wait longer to recognize pitches because you are less apt to get beaten by a fastball, which in turn means you'll get around on that high and tight fastball you've missed for years and pick up those lefties a little better. And when you start clubbing the ball at a historic pace, pitchers will pitch around you more. And his HR/AB rate is significantly better than it was earlier in his career. The only reason he hasn't hit 60 the last two years is because pitchers haven't let him. If he just got 520+ AB's, he would've.
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| 24 | cancermoon
ID: 399111620
Mon, Nov 17, 2003, 17:24
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stronger means better bat speed, are you kidding???
I take it Sheffield should be at the front line for steroids then, and in that case why doesn't Sheffield hit more HR's than Bonds? Sorry that explanation was totally implausable Razor.
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| 25 | StLCards
Leader
ID: 341011218
Mon, Nov 24, 2003, 14:50
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from kffl
"ESPN.com reports substances suspected to be anabolic steroids were seized from the home of Greg Anderson, personal trainer of San Francisco Giants OF Barry Bonds, in a Sept. 5 raid by federal investigators, two sources close to the search told the San Francisco Chronicle. A search of Anderson's house also discovered information that detailed athletes' names, the names of drugs they may be using and apparent drug intake schedules, according to the Chronicle report."
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