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Subject: UNSCIENTIFIC listing: Home-grown studs
Posted by: Species
- Leader [569221717] Fri, Dec 05, 2003, 19:49
Okay, here is a list I threw together from glancing at rosters. The idea was to get a feel for what organizations drafted the most stud players. My "criteria" was either: 1 - several All-Star games or a recent All-Star who will likely see many All-Star games going forward (i.e. Lowell); 2 - Up and coming indisputable stud prospect who will be an All-Star (i.e. Miguel Cabrera). I exclude kind of onesy-twosy All-Stars who kind of make it because of lousy teams (i.e. wasn't Joe Randa an All-Star?)
Many will be washed up former studs (i.e. Larkin, Salmon) as well, but they're still playing so they count. Some might be stretches, but are added to make a point (i.e. some MON guys).
FAR from exact, I know, but it's a discussion piece. Feel free to offer people I missed. The Free Agents aren't on rosters, so I used memory and some other list to help.
Anaheim - 5: Percival, Glaus, Anderson, Edmonds, Salmon (Erstad kinda close, and Washburn)
Milwaukee - 1: Sheffield
Arizona - 0
Tampa Bay - 1: Huff
Seattle - 7: Hampton, A-Rod, Griffey, Lowe, Varitek, B. Boone, Edgar
Philly - 1: Rolen (Burrell close)
Montreal - 7: R. Johnson, Walker, Gagne, Vlad, Vidro, Vazquez, Urbina (Cliff Floyd close)
Cincy - 1: Larkin (Dunn and Kearns were close)
Cleveland - 6: Sexson, Manny, Thome, Giles, Colon, Lofton (Sabathia kinda close)
Colorado - 1: Helton
Houston - 7: Luis Gonzalez, Bagwell, Biggio, Berkman, Abreu, Wagner, Oswalt
NY Mets - 1: Preston Wilson (a stretch?)
Atlanta - 7: Chipper, Andruw, Javy, Millwood, Glavine, Klesko, Schmidt (Furcal close, Klesko stretch probably)
Oakland - 8: Giambi, Hudson, Mulder, Zito, Rickey Henderson (shows as a FA! lol), Tejada, Chavez, Harden (counts in that up-and-coming stud category)
Detriot - 1: Smoltz
Toronto - 5: Kent, Delgado, Halladay, Green, V. Wells
SF - 2: Russ Ortiz (stretch), Foulke
San Diego - 2: Roberto Alomar, Sandy Alomar Jr.
Baltimore - 2: Mussina, Benitez (stretch)
Pittsburgh - 1: Bonds
LA - 3: Pedro, Piazza, Mondesi (stretch)
Boston - 4: Schilling, Nomar, Clemens, Mo Vaughn
St. Louis - 2: Morris, Pujols
KC - 3: Damon (stretch), Beltran, Sweeney
Cubs - 4: Prior, Wood, Maddux, Palmeiro
Florida - 4: Beckett, Cabrera, Nen, Renteria
Texas - 6: Sosa, Gonzalez, Pudge, K. Brown, Blalock, Teixiera
W. Sox - 3: Buerhle (stretch), Magglio, F. Thomas
Yankees - 7: Lowell, Pettitte, Rivera, Jeter, Bernie, Posada, Leiter
Realize, outside of guys that had 5+ AS games it was kind of a "feel" type of list. Many vets are on this list that if they didn't make a lot of AS games they were always on the cusp. There are lots of stretches on here, mainly to give those teams at least a few more guys on the list!
Have to say I'm impressed with Seattle, Montreal, Atlanta, Oakland, Texas and the Yankees.
Feel free to nominate some I may have forgotten. MIN isn't on the list, cuz guys like Radke, Hunter and a few others just didn't seem studly enough - even though MIN cranks out lots of pretty solid players.
I've wanted to do this for a while to give some reasonable basis to discuss teams with good farm systems. |
| Only the 50 most recent replies are currently shown. Click on this text to display hidden posts as well. |
| 22 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 6117323
Sat, Dec 06, 2003, 15:35
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He's got potential, I won't argue with that.
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| 23 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 211116514
Sat, Dec 06, 2003, 18:20
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thats why i said, I dont know if he is a stud, but he is good.
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| 24 | Mikel
ID: 391023248
Sun, Dec 07, 2003, 10:23
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Punk42AE post 11: Ahh cool, I didn't know that. I just remember on his rookie card he is on the White Sox...BUNTING of all things.
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| 25 | Mikel
ID: 391023248
Sun, Dec 07, 2003, 10:35
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Troy Edward Glaus - Anaheim
I was flipping thru a site to see how Roberto
Alomar got out of SD. Him and Joe Carter were traded to Toronto for Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez. I think Jays fans are pretty happy with the results they got!
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| 26 | Mikel
ID: 391023248
Sun, Dec 07, 2003, 10:40
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Didn't see glaus on the list 'till now. Whoops.
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| 27 | Slackjawed Yokel
Sustainer
ID: 52347519
Sun, Dec 07, 2003, 11:18
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He's also somewhat over the hill, but Andres Galarraga was also a product of Montreal.
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| 28 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 331038201
Sun, Dec 07, 2003, 11:19
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Perm Dude 21 - Schilling was better a lot quicker than Milton. That's not a very good comparison. Schillings first seasons in the rotation, he was great. Milton's had chances to do that and didn't come through. And Schilling did start in Boston, traded to Baltimore for Mike Boddicker then to Houston for Glenn Davis, then to Philly for Jason Grimsley.
Mikel 25 - The Padres weren't exactly displeased with McGriff. He and Sheffield were pure gold in 1992. The only problem was that when they traded him away, Mel Nieves was the key piece. Oops. Carter, interestingly, came to San Diego (from Cleveland) for Alomar's brother Sandy.
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| 29 | Punk42AE
ID: 36635522
Sun, Dec 07, 2003, 11:33
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This is old, but I just found out that Roberto Clemente was a Rule V pick from the Dodgers. I think I have heard that before, but forgot.
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| 30 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 331038201
Sun, Dec 07, 2003, 15:29
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It's Rule 5, not Rule V, but I didn't know that either.
I was called out on my McGriff comment above, so I'll just say that in no way was I implying San Diego won the trade - Toronto clearly did. Just saying they weren't displeased with McGriff.
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| 31 | Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 141046261
Sun, Dec 07, 2003, 15:48
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bh, if you are discounting Schilling's first four seasons in order to demonstrate he got off to a better start than Milton, sure! But even Schilling's chance in the rotation wasn't much stronger than Milton: 14-11 (2.35 ERA helped mostly by his ten stellar relief appearances), 16-7 (4.02 ERA--we're in Nagy territory here), 2-8 and 7-5.
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| 32 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 331038201
Sun, Dec 07, 2003, 21:32
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A 2.35 ERA in 226 innings is better than anything Milton ever did. In fact, it's MUCH better than anything Milton's ever done. That was also Schilling first chance to pitch more than 75 innings in a season, and Milton's been over 170 FIVE TIMES.
I really think that we've seen most of what we'll see from Eric Milton, and while he may improve, I don't think he's likely to become Curt Schilling. If we're lucky, he'll become Tom Glavine, posting consistent ERA and get lots of wins on good teams. But Schilling's strikeouts are not a realistic goal for Milton.
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| 33 | Razor
Donor
ID: 190612
Mon, Dec 08, 2003, 00:19
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What a slap in the face. He'll never become Curt Schilling, but maybe he can become Tom Glavine, who just posts "consistent" ERA's. By Milton's current age of 27, Glavine had notched three 20 win seasons.
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| 34 | Punk42AE
ID: 36635522
Mon, Dec 08, 2003, 00:28
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Rule V as in Roman Numeral.
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| 35 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 710321114
Mon, Dec 08, 2003, 10:14
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Right, that's wrong. It's Rule 5 as in integer.
Razor, you're right that Glavine's not quite accurate, but he's a much better comp for Milton than Curt Schilling. And let's not pretend that wins are the most accurate measure of success. Glavine's been better than Milton through 27, sure, but my point is that Milton's more likely to become a consistent innings-eater than an ace like Schilling.
If you don't like the Glavine analogy, name me someone who had about 4 or 5 mediocre seasons through age 27 and then got a little better...
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| 36 | Species
Leader
ID: 569221717
Mon, Dec 08, 2003, 13:03
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bmd #17 - it was a total random ordering. I started with Anaheim because they were the first roster in alpha order. It kind of went haywire from there! lol
I purposely left Eric Milton and Christian Guzman off because they were only 1-time All-Stars and I didn't want to be accused of Yankee favoritism!
myboyjack #8 - good call. Missed Hoffman, and had no clue he originally was in Cincy's farm.
Tree/PD #13/14 - Delgado, like every non-North American player was a "free agent" signing. Delgado was signed out of Puerto Rico like so many other studs, including Bernie, Juan Gone and Pudge. Non-North Americans are not subject to the draft and teams sign them at age 16 or after (or younger if you're Adrian Beltre and many others...hahahaha). Delgado was originally a catcher in the Jays' system as well.
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| 37 | Matt G
ID: 541156811
Mon, Dec 08, 2003, 13:46
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Wasn't Pedro on the Expos?
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| 38 | Species
Leader
ID: 569221717
Mon, Dec 08, 2003, 14:12
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Matt G - Pedro was traded by Tommy Lasorda (essentially) in exchange for Delino DeShields. Lasorda just thought Pedro was too wiry and fragile to be a big time starter. In a sense he was right, but obviously hindsight is 20/20 and Lasorda didn't see the forest through the trees.
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| 39 | Tastethewaste
ID: 249352813
Mon, Dec 08, 2003, 14:26
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Just For the Record, McGriff was drafted by the yankees. I think he should be considered a stud. Traded for Dale Murray. Oops
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| 40 | Razor
Donor
ID: 190612
Mon, Dec 08, 2003, 14:28
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Traded by the Dodgers to the Expos.
my point is that Milton's more likely to become a consistent innings-eater than an ace like Schilling
Another slap in the face! So when you think ace, you think Schilling, but when you think consistent innings-eater, you think Tom Glavine? Schilling gets a whole lot of credit for a guy who has finished top 5 in the Cy Young voting just 3 times. Glavine is way better than Schilling.
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| 41 | Species
Leader
ID: 569221717
Mon, Dec 08, 2003, 14:48
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taste #39 - part of my criteria was current, active players. Yeah that makes including Rickey a bit of a stretch, but McGriff doesn't make the list.
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| 42 | Razor
Donor
ID: 190612
Mon, Dec 08, 2003, 14:53
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If Palmeiro's on, McGriff should be on. Someone is going to sign McGriff.
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| 43 | Matt G
ID: 541156811
Mon, Dec 08, 2003, 15:35
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Maybe I'm biased because I'm a twins fan, but some budding stars that are finally getting some respect and in a few years could break out...
Hawkins, - yeah he is 30 but he has had 2 spectacular years as a setup man, I guess we have to see how he fairs out of the Romero-Guardado Sandwich.
Mauer - Every one I have talked to who follows baseball thinks this kid is a tremendous stud... Draft AHEAD of Mark Prior and is going to start this year at the age of 20. hit .345 in A and AA and was named Minor league player of the year...5 years down the road, we'll talk about him having 3 All Stars under his belt.
Johan Santana- One big year is nothing, but as a full time starter this coming year, could show us a thing or two... Arguably the best starter the second half of the Season.
AJ Pierzynski - One all star appearance but a .300 hitting catcher who manages a game like no other.
Hunter and Jones - Jones has had 2 300 15-20 HR 80-100 RBI years where he hit lead off 75% of the time. hunter, yes he hit well below 300 this year, but is the best cf in the AL and hits 25+ hrs a year.
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| 44 | Species
Leader
ID: 569221717
Mon, Dec 08, 2003, 15:53
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Matt G - I hear you completely. As you might have noticed, I made mention of MIN not having anyone on the list, which is a shame because they have produced many VERY solid major leaguers. Koskie isn't on your list nor are guys like Cuddyer and Restovich who are gems waiting to get their shot.
Mauer is the real deal. But, unlike guys like Cabrera and Beckett, Blalock and Teixiera, etc. he hasn't made it to the major leagues and had a successful campaign where they have transitioned from stud prospect to All-Star in the making.
MIN deserves lots of props for growing very solid players.
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| 45 | Matt G
ID: 541156811
Mon, Dec 08, 2003, 16:53
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If you look at some of the rosters of major league teams, it's very unlikely that you won't find a former twin prospect who is holding a solid roster spot.
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| 46 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 217351118
Mon, Dec 08, 2003, 19:36
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How many Mets disapointments are out there?
Jay Payton
Alex Escobar
Glendon Rusch
Timo Perez
Bill Pulsipher
And aside from Isringhausen and Octavio Dotel, the ones that have worked out haven't exactly been stellar - at least for long, anyhow:
Edguardo Alfonzo
Jeromy Burnitz
Paul Wilson
Robert Person
Todd Hundly
Rey Ordonez
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| 47 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 217351118
Mon, Dec 08, 2003, 19:43
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There might be fewer starting Mets products out there than from any other team.
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| 48 | R9
ID: 7115044
Tue, Dec 09, 2003, 10:32
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Don't know if it was mentioned, but Lofton was drafted by the Astros.
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| 49 | Eat Acid
Donor
ID: 419311710
Thu, Dec 11, 2003, 19:24
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BH 28---And Baerga.
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| 50 | Huskiez
ID: 41220315
Thu, Dec 11, 2003, 20:01
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Soriano - Yankees?
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| 51 | R9
ID: 131191023
Thu, Dec 11, 2003, 20:52
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Soriano was undrafted, and Species list was for top drafts. Still, they got him relatively cheap...
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| 52 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Thu, Dec 11, 2003, 23:51
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Well, not exactly R9, although I indeed failed to word this properly (i.e. every Latin player would be excluded if it was JUST drafts). I excluded Soriano because he was much more of a known quantity when the Yankees signed him. As you recall he had played several seasons in Japan and he was signed as in International FA. This is not finding Bernie on the playgrounds of Puerto Rico at age 17 -- Soriano was 21-22 and considered a pretty solid prospect.
So, in not wanting to be accused of tilting things in favor of the Yanks, I excluded him from my list.
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| 53 | RecycledSpinalFluid
Dude
ID: 9114753
Fri, Dec 12, 2003, 00:00
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And, no, he wasn't cheap.
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| 54 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 211116514
Fri, Dec 12, 2003, 01:19
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Soriano they got Super cheap.
I dont know what you consider not cheap
2001 630,000
2002 630,000
2003 800,000
Seems pretty cheap to me.
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| 55 | RecycledSpinalFluid
Dude
ID: 9114753
Fri, Dec 12, 2003, 02:10
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The 4 years, 3.1 Million Dollar contract he signed in 1998 was extravagant for the type of free-agent he was. And the Yankees offer far exceeded any other on the table (good for Alf). So, no, he was not cheap.
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| 56 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 211116514
Fri, Dec 12, 2003, 08:39
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RSF, Say what you will, but I respectfully disagree. Anytime you have a possible MVP canidate for less then a million a season. You got an absolute steal. No doubt about it.
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| 57 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 211116514
Fri, Dec 12, 2003, 08:40
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Think about that they paid for matsui and contreras, and what the mets paid for their matsui.
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| 58 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Fri, Dec 12, 2003, 09:18
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He came cheap. If he didn't work out, then you have an argument that he certainly didn't come cheap. But given his production, any ML team would be happy to develop a player for 775k/year if they knew they were getting Alfonso Soriano in return three years later. I'm not claiming the Yankees knew what they were getting, but their gamble obviously paid off.
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| 59 | RecycledSpinalFluid
Dude
ID: 9114753
Fri, Dec 12, 2003, 11:20
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So, 3.1 million dollars is cheap if you are the Yankees. OK, I can agree with that.
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| 60 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 211116514
Fri, Dec 12, 2003, 11:27
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3.1 million is cheap if you go to the tigers, i think they just signed vina for 3.1 million a year. Who would you rather have?
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| 61 | RecycledSpinalFluid
Dude
ID: 9114753
Fri, Dec 12, 2003, 11:30
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Is Vina going to spend the next two seasons in the minors, followed by 1 decent season which is followed by 1 fabulous season?
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| 62 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 211116514
Fri, Dec 12, 2003, 11:35
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no, Soriano didnt either, he has been with the squad for 3 years and is playing the 4th year this year.
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| 63 | RecycledSpinalFluid
Dude
ID: 9114753
Fri, Dec 12, 2003, 11:40
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Incorrect. Here is some help with Soriano's career.
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| 64 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Fri, Dec 12, 2003, 11:41
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RSF
As it worked out, Yankees have paid a player they signed to a developmental deal in 1998 a total of $5.16mil for 1 fair and 2 outstanding seasons. If you're claiming that isn't cheap, much less that Soriano hasn't been worth that much than I'd like to get in on one of your leagues this year, preferably one witha a cash payout.
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| 65 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 211116514
Fri, Dec 12, 2003, 11:43
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soriano made 800,000 in 2003
630,000 in 2002
630,000 in 2001
2001 268 ave. 18 HRs 73 RBIs and 43 SBs. Probably the top 2nd baseman in the league.
2002 300 average 39 HRs 102 RBIs 41 SBs, I would guarantee he was the number 1 2nd baseman that year
2003 290 ave 38 HR 91 RBI and 35 SBs towards the top again. Every year for less then a million. I know he out played vina and his 3.1 a year in each of those season.
he also out played alomar and his 7.6 million a year
Jeff kent and his 7 million/year
and equal to boone at 8 million.
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| 66 | RecycledSpinalFluid
Dude
ID: 9114753
Fri, Dec 12, 2003, 11:48
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LOL. Now you want to spin the next season, not related to the original 4 year deal. Yeah, 2 mil for 2002 was a fabulous deal. I feel the personal attack is already brewing in your mind MITH. I'm done here. My prescription glasses are scratched, could you tell me where you get yours so I can see the Yankee perspective?
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| 67 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 211116514
Fri, Dec 12, 2003, 11:56
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RFS, like i said earlier, I respect your opinion about everything you say. You always bring up good points, and this is in no way a personal attack on your. I just think that soriano was a complete steal at his price and I wouldnt be surprised when he gets his new deal to be closer to the alomar, kent and boone numbers of 8 mill a year.
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| 68 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Fri, Dec 12, 2003, 11:56
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OK fair enough RSF. for 3.1 million dollars and two years of developmental instruction, the Yankees got the two following MLB seasons:
2001 268 ave. 18 HRs 73 RBIs and 43 SBs
2002 300 average 39 HRs 102 RBIs 41 SBs
I'll still contend that $3.1m TOTAL plus 2 years to develop into being MLB ready is plenty cheap for the numbers you see here, even for a poor defensive 2b. I am quite certain that any team in MLB would be thrilled to receive that in return for $3.1mil and a 2 year wait.
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| 69 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 211116514
Fri, Dec 12, 2003, 11:58
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also, i dont think this is a yankee homer job either, if the same deal was done for minnesota or KC i would be like wow they are steal him at that salary. It is hard to find a bench player for less then a mill a season.
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| 70 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 211116514
Tue, Dec 16, 2003, 11:08
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another yankee prospect was carl everett, hardly a stud, but a good player.
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| 71 | Species
Leader
ID: 569221717
Tue, Dec 16, 2003, 11:34
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Yeah. I was furious when the Yankees left him unprotected in the expansion draft and let him go to the Marlins. Amazing how certain things stick in the mind of a baseball fan.
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