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Subject: OT: Texas Hold 'em Tourney Part Deux
Posted by: Species
- Leader [7724916] Mon, Jun 28, 2004, 12:29
Poker fans might have followed my first soiree' into legit poker playing in this thread . A buddy and I went again yesterday, and here's how it went.....
Scheduling kind of dictated we stray from the Spread Limit tourney to the Limit Hold 'em Tournament . I was kinda bummed because the limits, I thought, would make the tourney more boring and make bluffing impossible. Errrrrrr....I was wrong!
After having 74 players at my 1st tourney, this one started with 105! It sure makes for long odds to be in the money (top 10), but the first place prize of $4,140 would make most poker players smile.
I couldn't get a hand in the first hour to save my life. The few hands I got, I didn't flop diddly squat, and mid-range cards were pairing on many boards. I rebought fairly early (you didn't have to bust out in this game - I believe in spread limit, you do have to bust) and was the short stack on my table for quite a while.
What hands I did play, I tended to win. Thank goodness no bad beats going through the 2nd hour, and conservative play allowed me to increase my stack to moderate respectability. A-Q suited won a pot - a late position, pre-flop raise with pocket 10's actually scared 3 callers off so I stole some blinds and some calls.
Going in, I thought the lack of a lot of "all in" bets (with essentially a no limit on the Spread Limit game) would make this tourney drag. Man was I wrong - the rapid increases in blinds and minimum bets keep things moving BRISKLY. Even chip leaders at tables don't have such a huge stack compared to others as the minimum value of the chips kept increasing, and if you get too far into a hand you find yourself out of chips FAST.
I found myself down to 28 players - 3 tables. I was about middle-stack on my table when players started dropping like flies. 18....17....16....we're down to 2 tables and I am holding onto my stack tighter than a virgin (insert poor humor here). I stun my buddy watching over the railing when I bet aggressively with only 13 players left in the tourney - but I win the pot on a semi-bluff to again put me in middle-of-the-road in terms of my stack.
We get down to 11 and the chop proposal comes up: Take $140.00 off of the first place prize (was going to be $4,140) and give it to the 11th place finisher. We all agreed so we all knew we were in the money. We still had two tables at that point, and sure enough on the next hand at the other table, someone busted and we had our 'Final Table'.
By that time we were using $500.00 chips, and as I said the stacks are small due to the dollar changes. Things are REALLY tight - I can only think of only a couple of times where 3 players were in on a flop. Pre-flop raise? You steal the blinds almost every time. Any time someone bet past the flop it was almost assuredly going to put someone all-in. 10...9....8....I'm down to at worst 8th place in a 105 player tourney and will be a minimum $490.00 richer.
Then the axe fell.
I'm in the small blind with nothing. EVERYONE except me and the big blind fold. I raise to try to steal the big blind holding an 8-3 off suit. He raises me back and I call. Then he goes all in against me (like 3 chips left) so I have to call. What does he turn over? Pocket Aces! Whoooooooooops. What's hilarious is that I almost pulled a straight which would've been the bad beat of the century, because there was an ace on the flop so he had trips!
That left me with TWO - count 'em, TWO - chips. Luckily for me I'm on the button so I have several hands before I'm out. So what happens? Next hand two guys are betting to the turn and one has to go all in. BOOM! Knocked out. I'm 7th and guaranteed $610. Next hand? Same guy who knocked out the dude in the previous hand knocks out ANOTHER! 6th place is mine and $730. On the hand before my big blind I throw my 2 chips in with a J-2 suited and lose --- ironically to the guy that knocked out those other 2 players and made me $240.00. I told him that giving him my 2 chips was the LEAST I could do.
So, 6th place out of 105 players and $730.00 richer. Not bad.
How did I do it?
LUCK...LUCK...LUCK. Did I play so much better? Not really, although I did play smarter (stealing some blinds and pots with early raises) and more conservative overall. I knocked out 2 or 3 players. But bluntly I think one of the big factors in me just hanging around was plain luck with the increases in blinds. As you can see on the link to the tourney, blinds and minimum bets go up every 15 minutes. I swear for the 11 rounds in which blinds went up, I must have already paid the lower blind or been on the button the minute the clock sounded for the increase to the blind maybe eight times out of 11. Lady luck was smiling at me.
So needless to say, lunch, beer and golf were on ME that afternoon. It was quite a rush, and now the wife can't deny me my fix going forward because it's paid for! |
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| 53 | J
Leader
ID: 49346417
Wed, Jul 07, 2004, 14:10
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I think the Affleck one was Bravo's Celebrity Poker. I like that version alot more than the ESPN one. Just for comedic relief anyways. A new season of that show starts tomorrow at 9 on Bravo.
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| 54 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 3531815
Wed, Jul 07, 2004, 14:13
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Main tournament was over in May, along with all the other WSOP events.
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| 55 | wolfer
ID: 58546215
Wed, Jul 07, 2004, 14:16
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I meant 46.
Here is the schedule for those who are interested.
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| 56 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Wed, Jul 07, 2004, 22:14
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Thanks Wolfer...that is exactly what I needed.
THK
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| 57 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 36881
Thu, Jul 08, 2004, 02:23
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wiggs...nice story...I would not feel too bad about that hand...there was nothing you could do to get away from it. She was going to take all of your money period. (if that is your worst poker experience...you have not played poker enough ;-)
In fact I would consider that hand a good experience, what better way to lose all of your money in a tournament than to your wife so she has a better chance at first place.
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| 58 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Thu, Jul 08, 2004, 11:40
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.......another silver lining wiggs is that "combining" all of your chips together simply made it easier for ONE of you to make it so far in the tourney - I wish my buddy would be so kind to me ;-)
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| 59 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Thu, Jul 08, 2004, 12:50
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I wanted to start some conversation about bluffing
Obviously bluffing takes on completely opposite meanings in no limit versus limit games.
In limit games I find it difficult to bluff someone out of a pot. I've played a limit tournament, and all of my games at the card club are $3-6 limit games. While YES you can do it, all too often it's the stupidity of the person you're trying to bluff that may end up catching YOU instead of trapping them. I've tried to bluff by betting strong and raising every time in a late position - and it will work if nobody has a hand - but if someone has a decent draw of any kind it's hard to bluff them out.
I was very successful at stealing blinds later in my limit tournament (i.e. post 1 here) by pre-flop raising -- but the risk obviously is running into pocket aces, which was my undoing.
In no-limit obviously the fun and skill of the game compared to limit games is the all-in bluff - or bluffing with half your stack (if you are towards the high end at the table), etc. Your hope, obviously, is that you don't run into pocket aces/kings and get a call.
David Sklansky wrote of a "system" in Hold 'em poker for advanced players - the point was that a casino owner wanted him to teach his daughter to play poker in time for a tournament the following week. Obviously this was impossible, so he devised a simple system that she followed. Once the blinds got big enough to make it worth it, basically pre-flop she would go all-in with pocket pairs above 8 (this is all off the top of my head), AK (suited or non) and some suited combinations. It worked great for several hours before she ran into pocket aces and busted out.
My next tournament is likely to be a spread limit. I like to bluff like everyone else, but let's face it there are huge risks involved.
I remember more than once a guy at my first tournament (spread limit) going all in before the flop more than once. At the time (I was ignorant and just starting) of course I was scared off. But now I have to think twice -- if he had a great hand, wouldn't he want to get more calls/bets in before going all-in?? What does he really gain just getting blinds and a call or two in risking the all-in? Etc. etc. etc.
For the most part in the early stages of my poker playing, I've concentrated on MY playing of hands. More and more I am trying to incorporate reading OTHERS into my game. I realize that reading others is, in the grand scheme, more important than my own playing - but I want to make sure I'm not GIVING tells before I try to read other people's tells.
Thoughts on bluffing anyone?
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| 60 | Matt G
ID: 19554168
Thu, Jul 08, 2004, 16:51
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The easiest way I have found to bluff is this. I practiced by myself at home a few times and then worked on my skills with my girlfriend from the above story. I have also tried it in a few tournaments and have had good results.
The time I find that is best to bluff is after the flop, I rarely bluff before as I like to know what I am up against. Say the flop is 4 6 K off suit and you are holding 10 J suited but no chance at a flush. You have pretty good hole cards and a straight draw, but it's a tough one. Basically I convince myself in this hand that I'm hold 6 K. If you can convince yourself, when you know what your cards are, you can convince anyone at the table.
So I bet as if I have 2 pairs, 6 K. I want the guy to think I have 6 K but not be too sure. If the next card is a 6 or a K as well, you bet HEAVY and HARD as you just made a Full House.
The only way you are going to fool anyone on a bluff is if you bet exactly as you would if you had the cards. If you bet more aggressive, then you are a dead give away, if you just won a big hand for real and you bluff on the next one you will get caught.
I rarely like to bluff on an all in because now with so many people playing cards and so many who never play, you are gonna get a lot of people who play their cards and not the people, i like to bluff when i know im being watched more than their cards, its easier.
I find a lot of people who bluff look at their cards a lot, they will look when they get them, and then a bunch more times before they bet, if they do this, you know they are bluffing.
However this doesn't always work, sometimes despite what you believe you have, the guy across the table knows what he has is better, if you are playing K 6 and he has K 6 you are in trouble.
My best bluff ever was a tourney I played 2 weeks ago. This guy I had been watching all game was telling his cards. If he looked, sipped his beer and looked around the room, he had good cards. If he looked, and then starred down at his feet, he was screwed. I caught him in a nice long chug and a look around the room. I knew he had pocket something. I was holding 9 J off suit.
I was to the right of the dealer and 3 people were between us. He called the big blind, the people between us folded I raised the big blind, the dealer folded the big blind called the little folded and our friend bit. Flop comes out 6 Q A. I have nothing, the big checks, our friend bets again, pretty heavy. By this time I've decided I have A Q. You have to bluff quick if you think too much I find it is a tell. Our big folds and the other guy calls. I'm hoping that a Q or A falls and this guy makes his two pair, they way he is smiling i know he has it. Next card is a 5. No help for both, he checks I bet light, he calls. Final card is a Q. 6 Q A 5 Q on the table, I'm holding 9 J. Goes to our friend, I'm playing that I have my full house. He bets, moderate bet, you can tell he's falling, but still puts some good $$ in the middle.
comes to me, I raise 3/4 of my stack. Goes back to him, he says. "Why not go all in?" I say, "Just in case you got those only aces to beat me." 2 minutes go buy I just stare him down, half his stack is already in the middle, finally he folds.
I pass him my 9 J he flips me the bird and shows me his pocket 7s. Gets up from the table for a beer cause he drank a full one sweating it out.
Didn't bluff again all night finished 6th out of 54. won a few bucks, was all worth it for that bluff though.
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| 61 | J
Leader
ID: 49346417
Thu, Jul 08, 2004, 17:39
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I find a lot of people who bluff look at their cards a lot, they will look when they get them, and then a bunch more times before they bet, if they do this, you know they are bluffing.
not always true, I'm just forgetful and I'm always looking at my cards. Whether they're good or bad.
So far in 2 weeks of playing at this bar, I've finished 2nd and 3rd overall (out of about 18 or so). Won $35 in beer money over 2 weeks...all for free!!!!
I'm gonna try your bluffing idea Matt and try and convince myself that I have something, we'll see if that works.
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| 62 | beastiemiked
ID: 262411016
Thu, Jul 08, 2004, 18:51
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2 minutes go buy I just stare him down, half his stack is already in the middle, finally he folds.
Not sure if you were doing some reverse psychology, but staring down an opponent is a major tell that you are bluffing.
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| 63 | Matt G
ID: 19554168
Fri, Jul 09, 2004, 10:27
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J - Good luck with that, so far it has worked with moderate success, I'm going to try it tonight in Atlantic City when I'm there. As far as looking at Cards many times, I know that is not always true, you're right some people do forget. I should have been more direct. If the flop comes out KK6 and you have to look at your cards you don't have K6, most likely. This is just what I have found... Good luck.
bmd - I always stare down my opponent. I know it can be a tell, but if I'm repping pocket AA I want you to know it and If I have 2 7 and I want you to think I have pocket AA I'm staring you down the same way. I do this because I found myself when I was bluffing to look around the room and trying to take myself away from the table. Now if I have the cards or not I'm starring you down... It's all about looking the same exact way no matter what you have. It's more like looking through your opponent to make them feel like nothing. I will stare over their head and it just looks like I'm starring right at them.
In doing all of this it helps me to not worry about the cards as much. Granted if I want you to think i have something, I'm going to make those cards dance in my head until I believe it.
I become a robot at the table just so I'm not giving anything up, I'm sure I have a few tells I don't know about but I'm pretty strict as far as it goes.
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| 64 | Farn
Sustainer
ID: 451044109
Fri, Jul 09, 2004, 11:30
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Sometimes if a flop comes and I have high 2 pair or a boat i check my cards again to make sure i am not confusing this hand with another. So assuming someone is checking because they are bluffing is a bad move. Sometimes I check just to make sure I am not in the middle of some kind of great card playing dream.
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| 65 | Matt G
ID: 19554168
Fri, Jul 09, 2004, 12:12
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I understand your point, and I've gotten burned assuming this too, depends on the player.
I don't use that tell too often, but if a guy is Continuously looking at his cards, you gotta know something is up.
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| 66 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 105242914
Fri, Jul 09, 2004, 13:16
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My bluffing philosophy...(I only play NL)
In tournaments...don't bother until the blinds go up or if you are in desperation mode and need to take some chances to build your money. Early in the tournament play solid cards only straight up and just bet the value of your hand. Later in the tournament when the blinds go up use position to your advantage to steal blinds and bluff.
In cash ring games...I think the best philosophy especially online in the lower NL games like 25/50/100 it is my personal opinion you are better off not bluffing at all or bluffing only very rarely. You do not need to bluff to make money...just wait for solid cards and bet them aggressively when you do get a good hand. Too often in these lower NL games people will call you down with anything.
Points to take into consideration when thinking about the bluff. Position...generally it is best to be the last to act. Begin your bluff preflop with a nice raise and then if any big card hits the board take a 1/2 pot size bet at the pot...if someone calls figure they have that high pair.
Read the other players...if you play online take notes. Do not try and bluff a loose calling station...they will not fold! Bluff tight players. If someone calls a big bluff or reraises you do not be afraid to fold your hand...don't make a bad bluff worse by sticking more money in the pot. Generally if someone is raising you they have a hand and are not going to let it go.
Think about your table image...is everyone folding everytime you play a good hand? "Change gears" and start stealing some pots and bluffing. It is a good strategy a lot of pros use is going from tight to loose back and forth.
Bluffing has the tendency to bring a lot of variance into your game...you will have some nights where you win more money but then you will also have nights when you lose a lot more money.
One mistake I see all of the time online is what I label the all-in maniac. They will bet their entire stack to win a $10 pot and do this with any ok hand. This strategy does tend to work short term until you do it against someone with a monster hand. I love playing against people like this...sit back and wait for your opportunity and then take all of their money.
Personally I bluff a lot more in tournaments because it is more important to build a big stack...in cash games I prefer to just sit back and wait for big hands and then get paid...low variance...consistent winnings.
Play TIGHT AGGRESSIVE!
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| 67 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 105242914
Fri, Jul 09, 2004, 13:28
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Be careful with someone checking and then calling/making a big bet or raising. It is the common/reccommended play with huge hands to slow play them.
If you flop a hand that is basically in no danger of getting beaten...slow play the hand and see if you can get someone to do the betting for you.
Example...last night I get dealt 10-10 in early position...I decide to just limp in since the table is fairly tight and I am just looking to hit set 10s and then bet them. Flop 10-9-9. Beautiful! I make a .50 bet just to get a little action going and represent basically nothing ($50 NL table - .25 .50 blinds)...bet gets raised to $5 by dealer position...3 of us stay in the pot. Turn comes nothing...I check...dealer bets $9...I call...other player calls. Decent size pot by now ~$45. River comes J. On the river I bet out $25 which would put both remaining players all-in. One calls with K-9 other folds (9-x)...My full house takes down ~$70. If I would have played my fullhouse aggressively from the flop it would have likely slowed the other players down even with their trip 9s.
Always important to build money in the pot before the river as people are much more likely to call when there is already a large amount of money in the pot. If everyone would have just called my .50 bet after the flop I probably would have bet stronger on the turn to try and generate some money in the pot but again it would not be wrong to slow play that hand on the turn hoping someone makes some kind of hand.
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| 68 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 105242914
Fri, Jul 09, 2004, 13:31
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Another tip...NEVER show your cards if you don't have to. Make people pay to see your cards. Noone gets free info...let them wonder what you had. Can help get some big calls on hands later because if you win a lot of pots without showing it can get people on tilt and wanting to see the winner.
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| 69 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 105242914
Fri, Jul 09, 2004, 13:34
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If you are decent B&M (brick and morter - casino)player I would definitely recommend trying online poker.
It is a gold mine for the good player...and if you like tournaments there is nothing better as there are tournaments going on day and night.
Email me if you want a referral...we will both get some free cash if you make a deposit.
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| 70 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 105242914
Fri, Jul 09, 2004, 13:51
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BTW...I love poker =)
Has probably hurt my fantasy teams but then again Poker has been a lot more profitable. I love fantasy sports too but when I can make ~$20 hour playing poker and I am lucky if I make a .05 an hour playing fantasy sports it is an easy choice.
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| 71 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Fri, Jul 09, 2004, 14:08
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Ah Chicago, some nice advice and talk about bluffing. Seems like something you would read in a book by Slansky and Malmuth as opposed to Matt G's approach. Not knocking it Matt G but it seems too risky to me. If you are bluffing...you need to know you are bluffing because when you are check raised you gotta get your a$$ out of that pot more often than not.
I enjoy playing poker live much more than online and we have a cash game each Tuesday around here. Although, it is a very loose game and it is hard to use the strategies I have learned in reading Hold 'Em books. I look forward to being able to enter a Casino to play a real tournament or cash game...but that will be awhile! ;-(
Actually, one of my friends has a brother than is about 24...a bunch of his friends (about 25) are going to have a $100 buy-in tournament. I asked if I could join in and he said sure...so that should be a little bit more serious than the $30 buy-in stuff my friends play with. I am really looking forward to it and I'll let you know how it plays out.
THK
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| 72 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 105242914
Fri, Jul 09, 2004, 15:11
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More advice...(forgot to mention probably the most important point when thinking about a bluff) when thinking about a bluff think about the chances of success relative to your bet and potential winnings. This is more pertinent to cash games instead of tournaments...tournaments are fixed in length/bankroll - cash games really should be thought about as a lifetime of play.
If there is $100 in the pot and you bluff a $20 bet at the pot you only have to win 1 out ~5 times for this to be a longterm profitable move...if you think your actual success rate will be closer to 40% you should make the bet...yes you are losing more of these pots than winning but in the longterm it is a winning move. If there is $10 in the pot and you make a $10 bluff you better be successful with that bluff over half the time to make a profit. This is how a lot of players who bluff often think...don't think of it is as one hand think of your longterm profit potential on the move. If you are spending $10 to win over $100 you only have to win 1 out of 10 times to be a success. Another reason why it is important to build pots when you have a good hand it gives people "pot odds" to call almost any bet.
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| 73 | JeffG
Leader
ID: 1584348
Fri, Jul 09, 2004, 17:02
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This thread is a great read. I am definately not a poker player but like much of the country have become facinated with the game from the WPT shows on the Travel Channel and the WSOP on ESPN.
I am more fasinated by the ability some people have to read others based on their 'tells' like sitting position, checking cards, chip playing, tone of voice, etc. Anyway, was watching tv last night. Phil Gordon (profesional poker player and does the analysis on a celebrety poker show) said that most amatuer players will lean forward over their cards when bluffing, and lean back in their chair when they have a strong hand. Don't know how it plays or not, and people who know this could do a 'reverse tell' anyway. Just interesting info.
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| 74 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 36881
Sat, Jul 10, 2004, 01:31
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The most basic tell is "weak means strong...strong means weak"
It is basic human instinct to basically act the opposite of what your cards are...it is funny when you watch novice players (like on celebrity poker)...very easy to read and almost all novice players will do this.
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| 75 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Mon, Jul 12, 2004, 13:24
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A funny thing happened to me on the way to a Pokerstars.com "Sit & Go" tourney........my credit card was declined.
Over limit? Late payment? Nope.
This credit card does not allow charges for internet gambling sites! Fascinating.
I would imagine this is actually quite common, and makes pretty good sense. I chose one card that I keep with a really low limit - so that in case the site wasn't legit (of which I have little doubt, but I'm cautious) I wouldn't have much at risk.
Too bad - the "Sit & Go" tourneys look fun. Small buy-ins (if you want) and can be confined to one table with the top 3 making money. Basically you register and as soon as it fills up (which didn't seem to take long while I observed) you deal 1 minute later. I can't imagine myself not being able to make money 1 out of 3 times on a 1-table game.
I'll have to figure out another way to do it. All of the other methods of payment (should I not choose another credit card) involve tapping my bank account - a method for which I have little desire to try. I might just take a hundred bucks and send a money order.
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| 76 | Y2JS
ID: 165541719
Mon, Jul 12, 2004, 13:45
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Re: 67
I sort of ran into the same thing last night at a friendly 9 man, $20 buy-in game. I was in a middle bet position meaning that I was like 2 or 3 people out of the big blind position. I pull a A-10 suited (Hearts) and post the blind to see the flop. Next thing I know A-A-A fall down and I almost lose it with my quad Ace's. I try to play it off laughing with all the other guys and I check knowing that if I make any type of bet it will look suspicious since we are a talkable table and this isn't any type of tournament down at AC. So on 4th street comes a K. No big deal at this point, so someone bets and the table goes quiet. Another person calls and I raise. The last person folds and it's down to 3. Both players call my raise and here comes the River. The 3 of clubs falls and this pot is mine. The two players check and I bet big. One folds and the other goes all-in with a full house Queens full of Aces. I throw down my ace and take down a huge pot.
I might have played this hand differently depending on the environment but in this situation I think my initial check followed by a raise was the best way to play it. Sometimes though it's so hard to conceal your excitement so I got lucky by everyones reaction I was able to blend in =)
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| 77 | Matt G
ID: 19554168
Mon, Jul 12, 2004, 14:05
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Ok guys its time for my Atlantic City Break down.
The night started early, I usually like the late night crowd, you tend to find a few drunks who are easy to pull into a big pot but I sat down at a table around 10:45pm Friday night. It was a no limit tables, $1/$2 blinds $60 minimum buy-ins $300-max but you could buy in as many times as you like. Throughout the night I'd say 6 of the 10 seats at my table were the same guys.
I sat down with about $100 to start, I was at the Taj and this was the first time I had played Hold em't here. I had played Black Jack before however.
The first few hands I just watched, didn't feel like getting in too early. I found a guy I wanted to take down so I decided to get in on some hands. No cards were coming. I sat for almost 3 hours and I was in for MAYBE 20 hands. There were guys at my table who never folded after the deal, it was frustrating.
The first hand I played was A 10 Suited. I wanted to establish myself as conservative to start so I just called the Blinds. 3 positions later the bet was $20, I decided to call. 3 players. Flop comes out, I catch a 10 but there is a K and a 6 sitting out there. I check, bets come out as $5 and $10. comes to me I call $10 and the $5 guy folds. Next card is an 8 I bet $10 again. I get called. 5th street is a 2. No help for me. I'm sporting a pair of 10s with an A kicker. I check the other guy checks. Flip em over. He has 8 6 off suit and takes the pot. I was very baffled by this, Atlantic City is seeming to becoming filled with people who'll play anything.
So I take a few hands off just folding away nothing, J2, 10 3 etc until I become big blind I get a2 suited. I play costs me $10 flop comes out KK4 bet is $15 I fold.
My money is dwindling finally I get another A 10, off suit this time, I play for $5. Flop comes out A 9 6 I'm sporting top pair, other 2 players check to me, I bet $15... Little agressive for this table, I get 1 to call. Next card is a 7. I'm still sporting top pair, but I'm getting scared, I just know this guy who called with an 8 6 has something in his hole that he shouldn't be playing and he is gonna burn me on the river.
I bet $20 and he calls. Ok, I'm thinking there is 2 aces gone, NO WAY this guy has AA in the hole. Next card comes out. Its a 4. right here I think I have the hand won, he bets $15. I have like $50 in chips I call all in.... He calls.
Flip em over. He is sporting a 3 5 off suit. Has the straight 34567.... I'm fuming. This is the second time this guy burns me on this. I'm baffled.
I buy in again for $80... I play a few hands getting nothing on the flop. Finally I get something to play... Pocket 4s. I call the blind and the flop comes out. 5 5 2. I have 2 pair, checks to me, and the way the people have been playing I'm thinking they have nothing. They have been agressive to a T all night, NO WAY they are changing their game right now, they don't have a 5.(I was right) I bet $20 again. I get called by 1 guy, a different one than before. 4th is a 10... No help, I bet $20 again. I get called, river is a 6. 5 5 2 10 6. I have 2 pair. I bet like $19 cause I have odd chips. I get called, sure enough my man has 9 6 suited. I lose again. I have $31 and I'm thinking about taking my money and running. I wait for the next blinds to come to me.
I'm big blind, dealt 88 I'm gonna play bet is to me $10, I call. Flop comes out 8 4 7 I'm excited. Checks to me I bet $10 to draw some guys in, only 1 guy calls, next card is a K. I go all in, I only have $21 left and I have too. He calls, flip em over... he has nothing K 9 next card is a 10 I take the pot and double up.
I play some more and I'm not getting anything, I'm seeing good cards but flop is killing me and I'm paying for it each time. I'm Dealt K 2 of Diamonds. $5 to play. I call 5 players. flop is 3 6 5 the 3 and 6 are Diamonds, I have inside straight draw and flush draw. I'm sitting on $20 bet is $15 I go all in, guy next to me calls, and guy next to him calls. They play out the hand, I'm gonna make like $100 I think, except nothing falls. They both have 5 6 in the whole and called that. They split the pot.
So pissed now I put my hat down and go to the bathroom and get a drink, I'm just sitting at the table to get drunk for free now.
I buy in 1 last time to put me down $240, I play a few hands, getting good deals but no flop help.
Comes to my decided last hand, I'm tired its 15 till 2 and I just don't feel like playing anymore. I made $250 my limit to lose and I'm down $215 with $25 in chips sitting in front of me. I'm dealt A K, I go in for $10, guy next to me calls, big blind raise I go all in, guy next to me goes all in, guy next to him goes all in and big blind folds 3 players. I can make like $75 - $100 I'm too drunk to count.
Flop comes out, 4 5 K I have high pair, I stand up. A 7 comes out, nothing. last card is a J. We flip em over.. I have A K, guy across table has 10 10 and guy next to me.... Pocket Aces, thank you good night.... I tipped my hat, pulled 2 rum and cokes off the waitresses tray gave her a crumpled up $5 and walked out of the casino swearing up a storm.
I hate gambling.
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| 78 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Mon, Jul 12, 2004, 14:34
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All I can say to that is "ouch".
What can you do to combat jackasses who play dumb hands? You know what - and you tried to do it with good cards.
Perhaps the answer to that is a bit opposite of the "slow play the killer hands" angle that has recently been discussed. If you bet to protect a good hand, perhaps some of these jackasses that bet anything will fold out and not get a straight holding a 3-5 off suit.
That's why it's poker. Sometimes the cards fall your way, sometimes they don't. But I think the moral to the story is that you can't change your overall decision making - don't start playing bull$hit hands because in the long run you will LOSE.
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| 79 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Mon, Jul 12, 2004, 14:38
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I don't play, but it seems to me that if the table is playing crappy hands, you would be better served to play mediocre hands and spread your risk. Adjust to the table.
You had bad luck on your truly good hands, but if you stayed in with suited Q 10 a few times, you might have balance it out a bit.
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| 80 | Matt G
ID: 19554168
Mon, Jul 12, 2004, 14:59
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After a while I stayed as long as I have 9 10 or above, even off suit. I'd pay for the flop if it wasn't too much, but I just wasn't get anything. You had to have beat cards to win anything it was truely a bad night. The only hand I played that I got beat by good cards, was the AA suited... but how often does that happen???
It was a truely sour performance but I'm going back in August....
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| 81 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Mon, Jul 12, 2004, 15:19
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Question - what's in it for the house in hold 'em, both Tourney and non-tourney?
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| 82 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Mon, Jul 12, 2004, 15:28
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The rake
In non-tournament games, the house gets a part of the pot for each hand. In my $3-6 games it's $4 a hand. In the tournaments I've played in, your buy-in is $60 + $10 - $60 goes into the tourney pot and $10 is for the house. In that 105 player tourney I planed, I assume that's $1,050 for the house. The tourney went 4 hours, but the number of tables (and thus the number of dealers being taken up) goes down pretty quickly, so they probably make some money but not a lot. Obviously the benefit in the long run is getting more players playing at their side games where they get the rake on every hand.
The amount of the rake could differ by casino, table limit amount and state law.
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| 83 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Mon, Jul 12, 2004, 15:41
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Yikes $10 on $60? Almost 15%!?! That's mucho to overcome, even if you are playing with complete idiots. Significantly worse than sports betting.
What's the min, max and estimated average pot amount on your $3-$6 games?
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| 84 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 16611915
Mon, Jul 12, 2004, 15:58
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Species...
Funding your online account...most people open a seperate checking account...just get a free checking account with some bank and just use it for deposits to your online account (really hopefully one deposit and a lot more withdrawals)
The sit-n-gos are fun and can pretty lucrative for good players. I know a few people who make consistent good money in these tournies. All of the major sites run sit-n-gos. Some of the sites are now running multi-table sit-n-gos...example: when 50 people sign up the tournament starts...may only take 5-10 minutes to get that many players.
Most of the online sites rake 10% on tournaments (10+1, 20+2...). But tons of free tournaments out there too.
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| 85 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 16611915
Mon, Jul 12, 2004, 16:02
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As for playing with people who play with any two cards...personally I either play tight with my starting hand requirement and then jam the pot as much as possible when I do get a good starting hand or sometimes I will play any two if I can get in cheap and then raise-reraise-reraise once I get a good flop. With people who will play any two or will call any bet you need to make them pay when you have a good hand. Make them pay to chase. Yes...sometimes they get lucky and suck out on you but in the long run you will take all of their money if you are disciplined. Personally loose calling stations are my absolute favorite player to play against especially in No Limit where I can take ALL of their money with one good hand.
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| 86 | beastiemiked
Sustainer
ID: 3531815
Mon, Jul 12, 2004, 16:10
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If everyone is playing crappy hands then you should be doing the opposite. Play premium hands and hands that can hit the nuts(suited connectors, pocket pairs). What happens if you are holding King-Ten offsuit and a flop of King, Six, Seven comes out with two hearts? It's these types of mediocre hands that get a lot of people in trouble in No-Limit.
If a table is loose, then tighten up. If a table is tight, then loosen up. Play the opposite of the table.
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| 87 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Mon, Jul 12, 2004, 17:21
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That makes no sense to me, beastiemiked. Could you explain your rationale?
Certainly playing crappy hands when everyone else is playing tight gets you to win a few blinds and otherwise get romped for huge losses when someone else has something. Certainly a losing strategy, no?
Playing tight while everyone else is betting large on crappy hands just forces you to watch a lot of easy money pass in front of your nose when you have a medium hand and everyone else has garbage.
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| 88 | Species
Leader
ID: 7724916
Mon, Jul 12, 2004, 17:25
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bili #83
Keep in mind that 101 people out of the 105 in the tourney also paid for $60 re-buys. With a $4000 first prize, I'll give the house their ten bucks.
What's great is that, as the tourney director noted "There are no 1099's here". The minute I busted out of the tourney, the tourney director had a wad of cash and counted out my winnings.
In terms of my $3-6 game - that's a great question. Average pot is probably somewhere in the $40-$50 range. I've limped into pathetic $20 pots where everyone checks from the flop to the showdown (occasionally someone wins with JUST an ace - we all laugh when that happens).....and I've raked in probably $90 or more when 5 are in a flop and 3 on the showdown.
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| 89 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Mon, Jul 12, 2004, 17:35
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Thanks, Species.
$10 on $120 makes a bit more sense, and is line with what I am willing to pay for a vig. It sounds like they take more from tourneys than from straight poker, but then again so does Lotto, touting the big win so you don't think percentages.
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| 90 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Mon, Jul 12, 2004, 17:44
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Species-
I have run across the same message when trying to deposit $$$ into PokerStars. I use NETeller which is linked to a bank account...
I like to see that you chose PokerStars. What is your handle and maybe we can get in a Sit-n-go together sometime. I find the cheap sit-n-goes easy to finish in the top 3 but not really a cash cow by any means. .50/1 NL hold 'em tables are where the $$$ is made on PokerStars for me thus far. I normally play the $1,2, and 3 LARGE tournaments just for fun...my highest finish is 10 out of 1,400+. I have finished in the $$$ in those tournaments 9 times...funny thing is, when I get into the $$$ I haven't ever finished lower than 40. 41-99 or 41-135 I never catch for some reason.
Excited for the next coverage of the WSOP tomorrow...and it is poker night at a friends as well. This is a great thread BTW.
Anyway Good luck,
THK
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| 91 | Promize
ID: 9432612
Mon, Jul 12, 2004, 17:50
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I seem to have a hidden talent I didn't know about... While out in Phoenix, I placed 3rd and 4th in two different local Texas Holdem touneys... Average number of players were about 100. Was pretty happy, considering I never tried a tourney before.
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| 92 | Species
ID: 6652318
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 00:56
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TRS #84 - good idea. I'll get to that this week. The bank where my mortgage is will give me a free account. Keep nothing in there and as you said, hopefully just make lots of withdrawals.
THK - that'd be cool to hook up for a sit-n-go. But keep in mind I wouldn't play until 9:30 Pacific.
Promize - you can't give any more details than THAT? Come on man! Details details.......bad beats, lucky rivers, pocket aces - we need the details. lol
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| 93 | TaRhEElKiD
ID: 40612721
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 02:04
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What time is it now PST? It is 11 now...so 9:30 doesn't seem to be a problem. Of course it all depends on my football schedule...
THK
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| 94 | Promize
ID: 9432612
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 06:39
|
Well, I guess I was one of those guys who knew how to play the game, but didn't know how to play it at a casino etc... The casino's I was use to going to didn't offer poker games to much... I played in maybe 5 tourneys total (they had a system to try and make your way to a bigger tourney like Tournament of Champions, etc) Unfortunately, I had to travel back to Missouri so my 18th place in total points is going to be useless come time for the 1 day playoff.
Took me a couple tourneys to understand that playing live hands and playing tourneys are two different things for sure... In the beginning, I was very aggressive and would try and play any hand...
Finally in the tourney I finished 3rd in, was a combination of Moneymaker type river card wins and also understanding patients and waiting for those big hands to go all in on. I actually started getting the knickname Moneymaker when I kept knocking out 1 or 2 guys working my way up to the final table. At one point, while there was 10 people at the final table, and I was probably the short stack... I did get lucky and had pocket Aces... Knocked two people off the table and bam, was back in the running... The hand I was kicked off with I had pocket J's... The other guy flopped A Q... Of course the cards came out 2 8 Q.. That ended my run.
The tourney I came in fourth, patients played the key as I just held out... Played hands I had the best chance to win with (A K, A J, Q Q, etc) and just waited for people to be knocked out. At the final table, I don't even remember playing many hands while I watched the others eliminate each other.
Now that I am back in Missouri, I ran through St. Louis and stopped at the casino's there. To my surprise, the one casino had now started Unlimited Texas Holdem live games... That is a scary thought for me.. The temptation is already burning a whole in my pocket to get up there and win some cash...
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| 95 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 16611915
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 11:11
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biliruben - strategy against tight - loose.
The thought on playing loose players is that if you personally tighten up and only play premium hands when you do get in a pot a majority of the time you will have the best of it. I do a modified version of that by loosening up my starting hand requirements (especially when I have a position advantage over the loose players - last to act) but if the flop does not help me I am quickly out of the hand. I am either looking for two great starting cards and betting big or using my position advantage and limping in with any two ok cards and hoping that the flop makes a good hand. By only playing premium hands and premium position I should scoop a high percentage of pots I invest in. It is obviously very tempting to mix it up with the loose players when you have 2nd pairs or draws but this can be very costly as you can rarely put a loose player on a hand and they will end up scooping some big pots on you. The value of hands like suited connectors goes way up when playing at a table with a lot of loose players. Another important point...DO NOT bluff loose calling stations...they will not fold.
As for a very tight table this is a dangerous situation but the reason you can loosen up is you can steal pots/blinds especially with a position advantage. In a tight table it is possible to bluff and represent hands you don't have. Tight players will generally make 'good' laydowns if they think they are beat. Example: I have AQ UTG (bad early position)...I make a $4 raise before the flop...moderately large raise in the particular game. I get two callers. Flop comes 2-2-2...I check...late postion player bets $6...I check raise $12...he calls...turn comes and I come out betting $15...he folds and says your pocket pair must be better than my pocket pair. I didn't have crap but I knew he was a tight player and would get out of the hand if he thought he was beat...if he called my $15 I would have been in trouble (that is why those plays are dangerous). I would never make that play at a loose table as a loose player with a pocket pair in that position would never lay his hand down and if he is very loose he could even have the 4th deuce. The important thing with tight players is let go of your bluff if you get called or reraised (you know you are beat)...also try and get a feel for what you can bet to get people to fold.
Other things to take into consideration...number of players at the table. The less players generally the looser you can play as there are less hands dealt so less chance of great hands and the blinds come around more often so you need to win more hands to make up for your blind fees. Blind/ante amounts...the higher the blinds/ante in proportion to the average pot size the looser you need to play. If the blinds are very high...like late in tournaments the more value in the pot from the beginning. In games like .25 - .50 no limit with a $50 max buy-in...there is hardly anything in the pot to begin with and the pots can get to be $100+ with big hands so you can sit and wait for really premium hands before entering a pot....you can win one nice pot a night and make money. The game obviously makes a big difference also...Limit, No Limit, tournaments all play a little different. In regular cash games you have an unlimited amount of time to make money...in tournaments there is basically a finite amount of hands that will be dealt as the blinds increase so it is important to win more pots and build a stack. If you like playing a loose style look for games that suit your style...shorthanded games, heads up games.
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| 96 | Tastethewaste
ID: 105153011
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 11:55
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Matt G post 80 The only hand I played that I got beat by good cards, was the AA suited... but how often does that happen???
AA Suited never happens. If it did you really did have a bad night:)
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| 97 | Promize
ID: 9432612
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 12:16
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A A suited, sort of sounds like someone had a few cards up their sleeves! LOL
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| 98 | Matt G
ID: 19554168
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 13:19
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Sorry I meant to say AA in the hole, my bad... hahaha
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| 99 | wazaaap_guy
ID: 3959822
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 13:30
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I got a royal flush the other night... unfortunately, it did not pay off very well. I was playing a tourney with friends with about 4 other guys left. I got AQd in early position and raised, but only the guy in the small blind called. Flop comes AQK with K of diamonds, and I don't want him to catch a straight so I bet big and he folds an A7o. I'm thinking, damn I shouldn't have bet so big. We usually deal out the rest of the cards anyway, so we do and the turn comes J of diamonds, river comes 10 of diamonds, which would have given me the royal flush. I know I made the right move in betting but it still hurts..
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| 100 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Tue, Jul 13, 2004, 14:20
|
CTRS - thanks. That makes some sense. Depending on your competition, it doesn't seem to me that you want to stick to one strategy at all. Mix it up and keep them guessing.
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| 101 | TacoJohn
ID: 576191613
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 14:29
|
J, I can tell you exactly how the free tourney with cash prizes works because I thought about going into business doing it myself.
Someone drops a few thousand dollars on the chips and the table tops and such and then goes around to all the local bars offering to host a poker tourney.
The deal is the bar pays them a couple bucks for each person that shows up because all the people will be eating and drinking.
The people running the tourney pick up some prizes out of that money and pocket the rest.
The one here in Lawrence, KS gives away a trip to Vegas every two weeks and I can guarantee you the guy's still getting rich.
I was going to do it myself, but decided that making a living off of alcohol sales would be pretty much unacceptable as far as I'm concerned.
Having said that, most people don't have these qualms and you'll see this in every city in america within the next 2 years, guaranteed.
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| 102 | J
Leader
ID: 49346417
Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 15:23
|
its not just alcohol, dont forget about the burgers, chicken fingers, wings, fries and the rest of the bar food!!!! :)
They're starting to put up here in Atlanta alot too. We're making it a once a week event.
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