Subject: OT - Texas hold 'em - poker talk/discussion - VI
Posted by: Species
- Leader [07724916] Mon, Aug 30, 2004, 11:53 Topic for the day - merits of limit hold em vs no-limit hold 'em.
They each most certainly involve different skillsets. No limit is obviously the Taj Mahal, the ultimate poker player's game. You have to have brass cajones, skill, luck, and perhaps most importantly the ability to read the players.
Positives: The psychology aspect triples, the bluff is fun, the money can be spectacular if you make your hand and trap someone else.
Negatives: YOU can get trapped and lose your ass.
Limit poker is more of a grind. Bluffing is very difficult as it can be relatively cheap (depending upon the limit of course) for someone to call down to the river and try to catch the miracle card.
Positives: Perhaps the better game for beginners due to lower monetary risk. Conversely, if you are a more seasoned player, you have the capability of taking advantage of beginners.
Negatives: Little bluffing, lower stakes create less of a feeling of "action". Bad beats - lower stakes can allow chasers to call to the river in the hopes of catching their card.
At least at THIS point in time I have found MY particular poker game. When I first started online, after putzing around the play money tables I started with NL Sit-N-Go tourneys. The thought was to get my feet wet with a known monetary risk, with the possibility of a decent reward if you won. I'm embarrassed to admit that I blew through $130.00 in the couple of months I played them.
So recently I put my "last" $70.00 in, thinking if I bust out I'm through with online poker as I tend to do better in live games. I lost my first tourney, but won some back a 2-table $15 tourney which lifted my spirits SOME. Then I said "Fxck it" to myself and threw $35 into the ring in a 6-player tourney. I won that one to bring me within $30.00 of total break even.
At that point I decided to try the game I've been playing live - $3/6 limit hold 'em. Each session I will buy in for $100, just like I do live. Well, long story short I have run that $170.00 I had up to $770 over the weekend. Perhaps it's just a long rush, and of course I'm not proclaiming myself as the next Stu Unger, but at this point in my poker life I'm very comfortable here and will continue to play and learn - and hopefully make a nice profit while I'm at it.
So.......your thoughts on no limit vs. limit, please.
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95
Promize
ID: 28839168 Mon, Sep 20, 2004, 21:06
And yet another example that JUST happen.
***** Hand History for Game 969672220 ***** $25 NL Hold'em - Monday, September 20, 21:02:27 EDT 2004 Table Table 14088 (6 max) (Real Money) Seat 1 is the button Total number of players : 5 Seat 10: promize ( $82.04 ) Seat 8: steveowensjr ( $62 ) Seat 5: Hollister37 ( $3.65 ) Seat 1: Sasquache ( $12 ) Seat 3: Myxa311 ( $25 ) Hollister37 posts small blind [$0.25]. steveowensjr posts big blind [$0.5]. ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to promize [ Ad 7c ] promize calls [$0.5]. Sasquache folds. Hollister37 folds. steveowensjr checks. ** Dealing Flop ** [ Ac, Ah, 7d ] steveowensjr checks. promize bets [$11]. steveowensjr calls [$11]. ** Dealing Turn ** [ 6d ] steveowensjr checks. promize is all-In. steveowensjr: hummm steveowensjr is all-In. ** Dealing River ** [ Qc ] promize: at this point, you have lost steveowensjr shows [ Th, 7h ] two pairs, aces and sevens. promize shows [ Ad, 7c ] a full house, Aces full of sevens. promize wins $20.04 from side pot #1 with a full house, Aces full of sevens. promize wins $122.25 from the main pot with a full house, Aces full of sevens.
96
biliruben
ID: 441182916 Mon, Sep 20, 2004, 21:09
I guess it's better that you get it, promise, than the casinos, but this hold 'em craze is worse the lotto for taxing stupid people.
I practically make a living at those exact tables. I typically play the $100 and $50 buyin tables. But honestly I have found terrible players at every level of play...maybe a higher percentage at the lower limits. It is not hard to win...as you say just wait for good hands and then bet them hard.
98
culdeus
ID: 26856146 Tue, Sep 21, 2004, 19:58
Saw this on /. today thought you guys would eat this up.
she had great cards...I am sure old phil will feel he played great after he sees she was basically always in the lead against him and he made some great lay downs.
102
GoatLocker
ID: 128491910 Tue, Sep 21, 2004, 23:26
She sure had the cards and played them great to get under Phil's skin.
It love to be around when he sees it.
Cliff
103
MadDOG
ID: 398182119 Tue, Sep 21, 2004, 23:44
Chicago TRS, yea you're right Helmuth made some incredible laydowns toward the end under some serious pressure.
The guy is a helluva poker player.
104
APerfect10
ID: 476262718 Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 00:23
Just hit a huge pot myself ...
Texas Hold'em $25-$50 NL (real money), hand #342,530,473 Table Den Haag, 22 Sep 2004 12:18 AM
View hand for this table
Seat 1: tbob69 ($2,779 in chips) Seat 3: bigtrain25 ($2,047 in chips) Seat 4: Jason29a ($697 in chips) Seat 5: texas tooter ($5,961 in chips) Seat 6: TheMojo2004 [ 5C,9C ] ($2,425 in chips) Seat 8: nicmoniker ($6,134 in chips) Seat 9: book_cover ($1,013 in chips) Seat 10: smutch ($4,269 in chips)
AP10...damn you are playing with the BIG boys...25-50 NL I don't have the guts to even think about playing at those limits.
106
culdeus
ID: 3847227 Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 08:59
Mind you I've never played a real poker hand in my life, but even not factoring in all the money I can't see how I'd stay in that pot even with two clubs? Isn't the logic there that some of the other guys calling had to have a couple of high cards thinking they'd make a straight? And even if you were going for the flush a 9 isn't that high a hole card?
I guess the guys with the 10 were praying for a Queen?
I dont understand how you call 50 dollars with a 5 and a 9 with everyone else in the hand. What ridiculous luck.
And i cant believe everyone called preflop to begin with, besides the 9s no one had a very good hand. Ive only played for fake money and thats how they play for fake money, is this really how they play for real money...big stakes nonetheless? If so where do i sign up.
109
APerfect10
ID: 476262718 Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 12:35
I'll call suited connectors for just the big blinid everytime. If someone raises I'll just fold, unless they are J-10 or above. The times you hit the straight or flush make up all teh times you end up folding. Just make sure you don't waste too much cash cashing cards after the flop. If you flop the flush-draw, odds are 50% you hit the flush, so that's pretty good.
i dont understand. Is that real money youre playing with, when you bet 500 dollars that was really 500 dollars? I mean i guess its all relative, but how can anyone bet 500 dollars with a flush draw. Then you get the flush, the card youve been waiting for and you only Check...call? If you were that unsure that someone else had a higher flush why are you betting a total of about 2000 REAL? dollars on a flush that you obviously dont think might win.
And theres no way its 50% youre gonna hit the flush. Its about 33% and you bet 850 after the turn when your chances are at best 25% if no one else at the table has a club. Then you get the flush and you check and then just call?
I cant believe that was for real money unless you are super rich or have a bad gambling problem.
The more i look at it the more it doesnt make sense. Nicmoniker lost over 2000 dollars with a pair of jacks with a flush draw an over card and straight draws left and right on board with 4 other people in the hand??
That really cant be real.
112
biliruben
ID: 441182916 Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 13:14
AP10 has demonstrated in the past he bets high stakes. Whether it's a problem or not, I can't judge. If he has the cash and plays smart, I don't see it as a problem.
Im saying he didnt play it smart, in fact i dont think any of them played it smart. AP10 should not have been in the hand with 5 9 suited and a raise and 6 people calling in front of him. That is not smart playing. That he hit his flush is plain lucky. Suited cards make their flush before flop about 12% of time. When youre up against 6 other people who are all still in, there is no way you can stay in. That being said, fine he wanted to see a flop for 50 bucks more, when youre playing those stakes maybe its not that big of a deal to basically burn 50 dollars, but then he gets the draw with bottom pair and he says on this message board wrongly that he has a 50% chance to hit his flush. That everyone else is still in is baffling. AP10 thinks a pair of 9s and and flush draw is best even with an all in and everyone else still calling? i say thats awful playing. But then magically he hits the flush but he checks...i mean this is why youre still in the hand against all these people. You hit your card, so why just check and then when you have the chance to check raise you dont you just call. That makes absolutely no sense. He is basically saying that even after waging 2000 dollars and hitting his card he still thinks he might be beat! If you think you might be beat in that situation then why risk 2000 dollars. To me this indicates AP10 must lose tons of hands on draws and just happened to get lucky this time. Thats not smart playing, thats luck. Saying all that congrats, i just cant believe thats for real money. Even if he likes to play for 2000 dollars on a draw, can you possibly assume all of these people are risking 2000 dollars on one hand, and some had nothing. Nicmoniker especially, thats embarrassing and he needs help. Think about it, he just lost 2000 dollars on one hand when he was so obviously beaten by 2 players who were in plus 2 more that were all in? and 1 of those all ins was a 6 10 hoping for an inside straight draw?? Whats that one thinking? I dont see how people can possibly just piss away that much money. And AP10 comes out smelling like a rose but he just as easily couldve been nicmoniker, he just happened to get lucky.
115
ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238 Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 14:11
I see terrible plays like that all of the time on lower limit tables...I don't have the bankroll to play at 25-50NL tables but I have played at 5-10NL tables and see terrible plays there too. I do not doubt the authenticity of this hand...this is exactly why online poker is so profitable for a good player.
Personally there is no way I play anyones hand in that above scenario except the set 9s...and he screwed up on the flop by not going all-in after he got raised.
Personally no way I chase a baby flush draw...when the flop hit 2 clubs AP10 had a 2 to 1 shot of getting his flush (50%) so with so many fish in the pot he had his pot odds if he thought his flush would be good. My problem would be with so many people calling I would be afraid I was drawing dead to a bigger flush. I have won a lot of big hands by people betting into me with baby flushes to my nut flush. I do not have a problem with the check on the river or even just the call as he only had a few more hundred to bet so a raise would have probably been a good move but would have only been worth a little more money but still money left on the table...and with the pot odds and making his hand he basically had to call anything on the river.
With the "fish schooling" effect of this hand...all the mediocre draws putting money in it gave people pot odds to make calls. The results certainly are great but if you get involved in hands like that very often I think in the long run it will cost you a lot of money...but then again everyones style is different and if you are playing at these limits you either have money to burn or are a successful player.
TRS, where are you getting your numbers? A flush draw has a 35% chance of hitting.
117
biliruben
ID: 441182916 Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 14:40
I don't see how that would be, unless you are taking into account spent cards and assuming less than a 25% chance of either of the next 2 cards to be of the same suit.
118
biliruben
ID: 441182916 Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 15:18
Never mind. I guess that's exactly what you are doing. Calculate based on what you see, and all you see is 4 suited and a non-suit. 9/47 for prob of first draw and 1-(38 choose 2)/47 choose 2) for a suit in either draw. I was thinking too simplistically. They aren't additive.
But AP10 also said his odds were at 50%. Bili said AP10 plays big stakes all the time and if he plays smart he doesnt have a problem. But he played this one awful and he doesnt even know the odds of hitting his hand will be.
I also think its awful to just call on the river. He had 400 more dollars, if he can call 100 with nothing but a 5 9, he can call with bottom pair and a draw with 6 people in, and he can make that same call on the turn for 500 dollars, certainly hes invested so much in the pot that he has to go all in when he hits his card. No?
If he has doubt his flush is good then why even stay in pre flop with a 9 high? Id understand if it was play money or 2-4. But like i said i guess its all relative, i just cant imagine playing at that stakes and being an awful player. Makes no sense.
If this is the norm for internet play, i really might consider playing. Why do you think the play is so bad? Why would someone blow 2K on a pair of jacks? Thats really scary IMO.
122
biliruben
ID: 441182916 Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 16:17
I haven't played hold 'em for money (other than for small change with friends a handful of times), and I don't know all the legitimate strategies that can be employed, but I would think they would be close to infinite. It may be that AP10 has been playing with these clowns for a while, and know they don't fold, even with crap.
You are right, TTW, that it appears to be bad poker, even to a novice such as myself, but it could be that the circumstances warranted the risk.
If you are truly worried about AP10, and want to start an intervention, feel free. It doesn't seem like that is what you are driving at, however.
I never said he should get help, just that he is either too rich to care about blowing 2000 dollars on one hand of poker or has a problem.
I would think that he needs to be careful though, but what can i do?
Youre right i dont know all the variables, but he still lucked out, and like i said congrats to him, thats a nice pot to win. I just cant believe the play and i even question its legitimacy because i cant believe all those guys would be so reckless with that much money.
Im also really wondering why people would play such high stakes if they arent good at poker. TRS said he sees that kind of play all the time. Thats just scary. Its gotta be psychology of just being on the computer playing with money off your credit card, it must feel so much less authentic than real cards that you dont care as much about losing the money.
I dont know though, but its definitely strange.
124
biliruben
ID: 441182916 Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 16:55
I can't really comment on AP10 specifically, but I did see a report a while back which interviewed a series of problem online gamblers, and that indeed was the case. It didn't seem real to them after a while, like they were playing with monopoly money, and they were in so deep already that stopping at that point would mean they were down 10s of thousands of dollars with no way to repay it. If you keep playing you at least have the illusion that it's only a temporary bad streak and you will be even again eventually. Bad news is things generally get worse. If you are down 30 grand, it's likely that you are a bad gambler and you will continue to lose.
I think with the increase in online gambling and cheap credit we are going to see spike in gambling-related bankruptcies down the road.
125
TaRhEElKiD @ work
ID: 398311716 Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 17:04
Wow, not much more I can say. Can't believe the hand was called preflop (even in blinds) and played that way after the flop as well. Congrats AP10 on a nice pot though.
THK
126
ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238 Wed, Sep 22, 2004, 17:28
tastethewaste...online play is simply poor. If you are a decent player who can properly limit your hand selection I can almost guarantee you will make decent money on the NL tables. There are certainly good players but there are also a lot of truly awful players. You really do not even have to be very creative...just play tight, wait for good cards and then be very aggressive. Also must have enough self control (ability to forget about the hand and not tilt) for the hands where people make terrible calls and get their miracle cards and beat you.
FWIW I printed out the log and handed it to my boss, a live game regular around town and he agreed that the 9s underplayed the pre-flop and at worst he should have chased everyone off on the flop and been happy about it.
I know plenty o' people who used to gamble ten dimes every week on NCAA and NFL games but had no money to speak of otherwise, but they wouldn't step foot in an online casino. Now those guys are hammering these poker sites.
If I could afford playing 2k a hand I'd just fly to Vegas each weekend, sheesh they'll put you up for that sort of action.
Well like i asked before is that real money? This looks like a tournament to me. The guy who lost had the chip lead and maybe was feeling lucky, but if thats actual dollars then that is scary. Its scary anyway to see people betting like that, he had no straight draw or flush draw, he really only had a pair of 2s and of course there are 4 over cards on board, all you have to do is have one of those and hes toast. How he called that is beyond me. He shouldve taken that money and given it to charity if he was just gonna piss it away.
AP10, youve posted these 2 hands that youve won a lot of money...do you also lose a ton of money at these tables. I imagine you do seeing that you played that 5 9 for so much money, but i would think like TRS said, if you just play tight and wait for your pocket queens you can really win a lot of money, no? Why take the chance on a draw if you can sucker them when you know youve got the best hand?
This looks lie a $500 buy in "sit and go" or multi-table tournament.
138
ChicagoTRS
ID: 23717238 Thu, Sep 23, 2004, 10:21
That is a fine tournament play in my opinion. Especially when you are the short stack and are really looking to double up with that hand or bust. If I thought I would definitely get a caller I would probably go all-in preflop in that situation.
On a cash table I would raise a little more preflop (3-4x big blind) and would make a play at the pot after the flop.
i thought AP 10s play was fine, couldve went bigger pre flop with Queens, but im just shocked the guy kept calling with nothing. Even if hes the big stack and wants to see if he can get trips there is no excuse for him calling 715 dollars with a pair of 2s with the board thats out there.
I have no problem with AP10s play on this, i cant believe the other guys play.
140
biliruben
ID: 441182916 Thu, Sep 23, 2004, 14:20
Well y'all got me curious, so I popped in to a local smoke-filled sty called Goldie's, where I have played a bit of blackjack in the past. They replaced their pool tables with 4 hold 'em tables (3 3-6 and 1 4-8 for the "big boys") about a year ago, and they have become fairly popular. I had to wait 10 minutes or so before they could seat me, and this was closing in on midnight on a Wednesday.
Anyway, I was a novice, and it showed. Struggled to keep my cards on the table yet not show my neighbor, had to be reminded of the blinds, and at what point the bet went from $3 to $6. Ironically, I think my obvious ignorance helped me. I played a little, read a little more, and understand the rules, odds basic strategy. I wasn't making stupid mistakes. A loudmouth drinking hennessey who kept claiming he played hold 'em professionally starting berating me for not knowing what I was doing, which was true, etiquette-wise with chips and cards and such. I just smiled and didn't respond. Of course, when I drew into a few good hands, they all thought I was either bluffing or didn't know what I was doing raising and re-raising. I drew a straight, trip aces and a full house, winning decent pots right off the bat, because the loudmouth and his friends refused to fold to the novice. After those hands, I established myself a bit, and was able to semi-bluff a couple of smaller hands, and get out of there 90 bucks richer in 45 minutes of play. Most of these guys and been there hours and hours, and I could tell they were pissed.
I was so overwhelmed by just trying to get the etiquette right, that I had a hard time properly considering odds, and certainly couldn't adequately study the other players except the loudmouth, who was extremely easy to read. It appeared there were a few decent players at the table, but overall I don't think the quality of play was extraordinary. Maybe the better players play on the 4-8 table, but I feel like with a bit of experience to where I am comfortable and the basics are instinctual, I could perhaps hold my own and win consistently there. This first time though, it was definitely harder to juggle all the tasks and stay focused than I thought it would be, and I think I got a bit lucky.
I suppose online it would be a bit easier to stay cool, but that just doesn't seem like very much fun to me. In person was exhilirating if a bit nerve-wracking, and that's probably the only way I am going to play.
141
biliruben
ID: 441182916 Thu, Sep 23, 2004, 19:58
Ran into a poker book in a used bookstore this afternoon written in 1978, that had a chapter in it entitled "Game of the Future" or something like that.
You guessed it - hold 'em.
142
ukula
ID: 148272412 Fri, Sep 24, 2004, 16:57
These poker threads are interesting in that the game is profitable with a certain skill level unlike typical casino games where the odds are always stacked against you. I have to admit that I know virtually nothing about poker except the extreme basics and what I see on TV. I do, however, have the ability to analyze probabilities well and remain calm under pressure. Given my current personal situation I can see possibly playing online for an hour or so a few times a week late at night(once I reach my desired skill level). Two friends of mine play poker every Sunday with retired dentists/doctors (in their 80's and 90's) who are just glad to be out/alive. I've been told these guys won't fold on anything and my friends make about $200-300 every Sunday just being very patient and only playing the good hands. So is that the way to make consistent money online, waiting for the good hands and then play aggressively? How much do you make per hour?
143
ukula
ID: 148272412 Fri, Sep 24, 2004, 17:01
Also, is there a software program that would estimate your probability of winning the hand based solely on your hole cards, any cards shown on table (flop, turn, river) and number of players remaining in the hand? It seems to me that this type of program would allow you to grind out a consistant profit much like a bookie.
ukula...I think you are right on when you talk about low limit online poker....anything under 3-6 Limit and 1-2 NL. The games are not hard to beat consistently if you just simply wait for good cards/flops and then play aggressively. There are a lot of very poor players. It is very true that good poker players can consistently win...many people make a living playing poker. Then again for every consistent winner there are probably two consistent losers.
Personally I think the easy money is in the NL games as you can exploit the poor players easier. In limit it is just too easy for people to chase and catch cards...I like no limit because if someone is going to chase on me I am going to make them pay.
There is certainly a learning curve. You must be able to read the board quickly and understand what all is possible and what someone may be chasing when they call your big bets. You really need to understand poker theory...I would recommend the book "The Theory of Poker" by David Sklansky. The book is not going to tell you what cards to play but will help build the fundamental knowledge of what you should be thinking about when betting and playing poker.
I basically started playing seriously in January...my first month I made $12 per hour playing. I wasn't totally clueless going in as I had played in a few home games and even in Vegas but I was not a good player until I started reading and understanding the game at a different level. My father is also an excellent player so maybe I have a little of it born in me. This month I am making $60 per hour when I play...I think this month is a little bit of an exception as I have been really getting great cards for a few weeks now and basically winning almost every big all-in situation. I have been on an incredible run and have already doubled my best month. At this point I feel quite comfortable that I can average $30 an hour without much trouble.
I have actually staked two friends and taught them to play from basically scratch and both are now winning players. To me there is no secret to winning except playing a tight aggressive game at first. As you get experience you can try more advanced plays and make your own style.
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