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Subject: OT: Actuaries
Posted by: TacoJohn
- [3674240] Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 04:30
Considering an actuary job (in a very preliminary manner) after meeting with a guy at a career fair.
I'm certainly skilled at math (though I haven't pursued it beyond my 3 semesters of calc in high school), but also unsure about spending 40+ hours a week on that discipline.
I'm betting there are some actuaries on here. What's your job like? What are pros/cons that you've experienced? |
| 1 | darkside
Dude
ID: 3590317
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 09:22
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Guru
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| 2 | Catfish
Leader
ID: 35262811
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 09:35
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I am not an actuary but I work with a lot of them. I am 96.54% certain that you would enjoy it as a profession.
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| 3 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 09:55
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My wife and I are both actuaries. Madman, who now is usually found in the Politics forum, is one as well. I think there may be one or two others (one of the perennial top players in the PSC games is an actuary, but he really doesn't post over here - although he is a GuruPatron).
I really enjoyed it. Actuaries need a strong math background and aptitude, but I found that you needn't spend all day working with numbers - unless that's what you want to do. For the last 10 years of so of my actuarial endeavors, I was a portfolio manager in the Investment operations. Actuaries are also found in areas such as product development, marketing, sales support, risk management, financial analysis, and (eventually) senior management. (The current president of my former employer is an actuary.) If you work for a consulting firm, you can spend a lot of time working with clients, traveling, schmoozing, etc. My wife now works for a publishing company. There are plenty of non-traditional roles that actuaries can fill - and more and more are doing so these days.
There are some actuarial jobs that can be drudgery - as least from my perspective. But my experience is that those who are in those jobs like it that way!
And, if you are good at it, you can earn enough to retire in your 40s, so that you can spend full time producing a fantasy sports web site.
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| 4 | biliruben
ID: 406171015
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 11:22
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If you like and are good at studying for and taking tests and are looking for a career that is low stress and high paying, the profession is for you. I worked as one for 4 years before realizing I needed a bit more meaningful (for me) work to apply myself to and went back to school. I'm sure there are more interesting applications of the actuarial arts than I was dabbling in (calculating rates for commercial lines of insurance), however, and I am sure many folks find it a rewarding line of work. For the most part, however, my colleagues generally placed more emphasis on finding their rewards outside the 9-5.
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| 5 | Catfish
Leader
ID: 35262811
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 11:29
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Nice post, Guru. Most of the actuaries I work with really seem to like what they do.
Many career opportunities exist within consulting companies and there is a range of things an actuary can do, especially within the larger companies. The money is pretty good and it's probably as good as you can get in terms of a working environment. It can be busy and demanding, and there can be demanding clients, but there isn't the crazy stress that other math/business work can create -- I'm thinking of people who go into the financial side.
And as one of my colleagues said, "The best thing about being an actuary, is that if you make a mistake, you're dead before anyone finds out." (This was a joke, BTW. Actuaries are renowned for not having much of a sense of humour and I find that's generally correct.)
If you are into Myers Briggs personality typing, you can play around with the idea of how well you would fit. The tribal personality at my workplace is ISTJ, known as The Inspector. You can find a lot of sites online that include versions of the test. However don't take that too rigidly. I know at least one actuary who is a mild extrovert. j/k
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| 6 | biliruben
ID: 406171015
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 11:32
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As the saying goes, an actuary is an accountant without the wild side.
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| 7 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 11:51
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I'm an INTP.
As the saying goes, an introverted actuary will look at his shoes when he speaks to you. An extroverted actuary will look at your shoes.
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| 8 | Catfish
Leader
ID: 35262811
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 12:28
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It figures, Guru. Being a creative N rather than a fact-based S could be what drove you to fantasy sports!
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| 9 | Deadeyes
ID: 18115269
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 12:39
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Hey would I qualify???
Mechanical engineer. I have done math all the way up to graduate school. I have had perfect scores in math for: 1.) SAT's 800, 2.) GMAT 800 and I have never had below an A in any math course. I have no idea what an actuary actually does. The last math course I took was 2 years ago. I don't remember much and I am kind of lazy.
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| 10 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 12:45
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...I am kind of lazy
That may be the rub. The series of actuarial exams takes many years, and requires a lot of study. Your test scores suggest that you have the aptitude, which is a necessary - but not sufficient - condition for success.
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| 11 | Deadeyes
ID: 18115269
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 12:49
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How much bank does one make being an actuary?.. I don't make enough at what i do and I goign to take the Professional Engineering test to get my license.. Cash may motivate my laziness into productivity.
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| 12 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 12:52
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Be an Actuary - A good source of info for those who might want to explore the actuarial career.
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| 13 | Deadeyes
ID: 18115269
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 13:07
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Thanks.
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| 14 | Deadeyes
ID: 18115269
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 13:17
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So the guy who has predicted that boston is due for an earthquake any day now is an actuary.. He also predicted that much of boston will be destroyed from this earthquake due to the fact that much of boston is on a land fill. Should be interesting to see if this really does happen. Buildings will collapse. Glad I don't live or work on the land filled area.
As an actuary I really don't see how they can prevent this event from occuring.
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| 15 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 14:49
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Actuaries don't prevent, they assess and manage risk and attempt to come up with an adequate, yet not accessive price to charge for obsorbing all or part of that risk.
Some of the more enjoyable work was looking at Extended Coverage, with included developing and analyzing temporal weather models which attempted to predict risk of a hurricane based on rainfall in Africa.
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| 16 | Valkyrie
ID: 108201519
Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 19:37
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Taco-My father was an actuary and head of Pensions and Bonuses for a Fortune 50 company and I passed trhe first two actuarial exams however I did not become an actuary but have employed quite a few. Actuaries enjoy a couple lesser known benefits- (1)they may be the last "black box" in business, replacing the IT people in that respect (hence the joke that actuaries die before their mistakes are discovered). Nobody knows or understands what they do in business so no one can really question them too much (2) they wield enormous power in that for many years they were the person of "last adjustment" for public companies wanting to manipulate annual earnings by changing pension and retirement costs by adjusting earning rate assumptions LOL. (3) Actuaries still retain a significant amount of government mandated work- all pension plans need one to sign off on their plan etc. which is low risk fairly high pay, fairly straight forward stuff.
If all that sounds a little boring remember whenever someone can take a "black box" profession, any black box profession for that matter and make it comprehensible in another field the potential for substantial advancement is very great. Finally and perhaps the most important I believe you will find that the discipline and logical/statistical approach to matters inherrant in the profession will be very useful and applicable to such diverse applications as virtually any form of making money or winning and/or designing fantasy sports games. Mathematics, logic and discipline are all parts of actuarial science but the basic approach is equally applicable to merely living a productive and enjoyable life as well.
In summary, the testing process is long and hard (much harder than the Bar for attorneys or CPA for accountants with which I am familiar) but you could make many much worse choices.
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| 17 | TacoJohn
ID: 3674240
Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 03:01
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Wow, awesome input guys.
I was thinking while I talked to the guy "I'm pretty sure some website I frequent was started by an actuary" I didn't realize it was this one. :)
I'm definitely going to look into it. I for sure have math aptitude and test well (perfect on ACT math for instance).
However, I'm not sure I see myself as the 9-5 guy as much. It may or may not be a good fit for me. I might need to look into a more non-traditional job or self-employment, but I'm definitely gonna consider this.
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| 18 | biliruben
ID: 406171015
Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 10:51
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I took a class from an actuary who consulted and was hence self-employed. He claimed he brought in 300-400K a year. He worked dang hard though.
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| 19 | Ender
Donor
ID: 013443221
Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 11:44
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I checked out the website above and understood most of it. I had a few questions about the testing (even after looking at sample exams).
I have a BS in Math and can bring myself back up to speed on the math in Exam 1. Would I need to take any course work to take the exam? Or do I just contact a testing center in my area (Chicago)?
Further, do I need to take any classes at all? Or do I just take the exams when I feel competent enough? (I realize coursework helps a lot especially after the first few and also realize that you can get on the job training).
I'm just wondering if it's reasonable to invest some time and study and work my way through the first 3 exams or should I count on taking a few classes? I have to take some classes to maintain my teaching license anyway so it wouldn't really be a problem. This may also solve my dilemma about which direction to go with my Master's Degree. I don't know if I would pursue a career change or not, but this would at least serve a purpose and move me forward a couple lanes in salary in this profession.
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| 20 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 12:39
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No need to take a course if you understand the material and can pass the exam without it. You can try some of the recent exams to see how you'd do. Exams are graded "on the curve", but the pass rate is typically pretty low for the early exams - perhaps in the 35% vicinity. (At least, that was a typical pass ratio back when I took them in the 1970s. By pass ratio, I mean that 35% of the candidates passed the exam. I don't know what the raw score would need to be. As I recall, the scoring gives credit for correct answers, but deducts for wrong answers, so if you have no idea, you might as well skip the question. If yiu can elimiate a few choices, however, it's worth it to guess.)
You can retake an exam as often as you need. You might as well sign up and try it, Ender.
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| 21 | Valkyrie
ID: 538201712
Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 13:27
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Ender- I passed the California Bar and CPA cold, no review courses and little study (not that I am so egotistical as to plan it that way, it just happened) but the actuarial exams are much harder. I don't know anyone who can pass any of them beyond maybe the first one w/o studying hard so you may be disappointed if you take a half hearted shot at it.
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| 22 | Deadeyes
ID: 18115269
Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 13:30
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I think I'll sign up and see what happens. Thanks
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| 23 | Ender
Donor
ID: 013443221
Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 13:32
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Thanks for the advice. I don't mean to imply that it would be half-hearted by any stretch. I would take it seriously. I was just curious as to whether I would need to take a course first. If all I have to do is sign up that makes it easier and a can't lose proposition IMO. I have looked at the samples of Exam 1 and 2. Exam 1 doesn't scare me in the least. I would need to brush up on the skills that I haven't used much, but I never had any trouble with those concepts while in school. Exam 2 is a different story, I would have to study much more in advance and learn things that I don't already know.
Thanks for the replies. I'm all ears and am just beginning to seriously consider this. I am happy teaching, but I'm at that age where you start to ask yourself questions and decide if your chosen profession is how you want to spend your life. This (actuarial science) has always intrigued me, but I haven't done any homework on it until now.
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| 24 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 13:38
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As a math teacher the first exam should certainly be passable without taking a course. If you have taken a few courses in probability and statistics, you should be able to pass the second exam without a course as well. If you are trying to teach yourself statistics, you are likely going to struggle.
The most useful method of preparing for the first two exams is doing problem sets. Lots of problem sets. And then a few more after that.
Get a hold of every old exam you can find that's available and do them all. Then do them again.
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| 25 | Deadeyes
ID: 18115269
Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 13:43
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Looks like basic calculus and some statistics.
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| 26 | Guru
ID: 330592710
Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 14:13
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bili - I think the first exam covers both calc and stats now. Back when I took them, those were two separate exams. Your comment [24] seems to presume the older format.
The second exam is now Interest Theory, Economics, and Finance. The math isn't difficult (as long as you understand the material from the first exam), but some of the nomenclature is unique and a review of the background texts would certainly be needed. FWIW, my wife works for the company (ACTEX) that publishes one of the recommended texts for the second exam, and a new edition just went to the printers, so it will be available next month.
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| 27 | biliruben
ID: 441182916
Fri, Sep 17, 2004, 14:33
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Yup. I had forgotten that they'd combined the first 2 exams. They were busy splitting exams up when I was taking them (so that 10 exams were actually 15+), that consolidatation sounds bizarro.
Those that have passed all the exams have a strong interest in keeping the number of Demi-God actuaries, those capable of juggling 4 flaming insurers with one hand, while fencing blindfolded with the Attorney General of Texas and California at the same time with the other hand, few and far between. Making the tests incredibly hard to pass keeps the salaries high and the questions few.
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