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0 Subject: OT - Texas Hold 'em poker discussion/talk - VII

Posted by: Species
- Leader [07724916] Fri, Sep 24, 2004, 00:01

Some interesting discussions in the previous thread:

AP10's....errrrrr....'unique' winning hand

Phil Helmuth's play and subsequent crying like a baby in the WSOP Tournament of Champions vs. Annie Duke

This post from biliruben who popped his 'live' cherry


biliruben
ID: 441182916
Thu, Sep 23, 2004, 14:20 Well y'all got me curious, so I popped in to a local smoke-filled sty called Goldie's, where I have played a bit of blackjack in the past. They replaced their pool tables with 4 hold 'em tables (3 3-6 and 1 4-8 for the "big boys") about a year ago, and they have become fairly popular. I had to wait 10 minutes or so before they could seat me, and this was closing in on midnight on a Wednesday.

Anyway, I was a novice, and it showed. Struggled to keep my cards on the table yet not show my neighbor, had to be reminded of the blinds, and at what point the bet went from $3 to $6. Ironically, I think my obvious ignorance helped me. I played a little, read a little more, and understand the rules, odds basic strategy. I wasn't making stupid mistakes. A loudmouth drinking hennessey who kept claiming he played hold 'em professionally starting berating me for not knowing what I was doing, which was true, etiquette-wise with chips and cards and such. I just smiled and didn't respond. Of course, when I drew into a few good hands, they all thought I was either bluffing or didn't know what I was doing raising and re-raising. I drew a straight, trip aces and a full house, winning decent pots right off the bat, because the loudmouth and his friends refused to fold to the novice. After those hands, I established myself a bit, and was able to semi-bluff a couple of smaller hands, and get out of there 90 bucks richer in 45 minutes of play. Most of these guys and been there hours and hours, and I could tell they were pissed.

I was so overwhelmed by just trying to get the etiquette right, that I had a hard time properly considering odds, and certainly couldn't adequately study the other players except the loudmouth, who was extremely easy to read. It appeared there were a few decent players at the table, but overall I don't think the quality of play was extraordinary. Maybe the better players play on the 4-8 table, but I feel like with a bit of experience to where I am comfortable and the basics are instinctual, I could perhaps hold my own and win consistently there. This first time though, it was definitely harder to juggle all the tasks and stay focused than I thought it would be, and I think I got a bit lucky.

I suppose online it would be a bit easier to stay cool, but that just doesn't seem like very much fun to me. In person was exhilirating if a bit nerve-wracking, and that's probably the only way I am going to play.
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90FRICK
      ID: 268522714
      Thu, Oct 14x, 2004, 15:09
I wonder how many players in this year's WSOP had the same idea. Take a risk on a coin flip hand and try to double up.

The problem is if you are wrong you are out of the tournament. I think Raymer is a great player, but how many hands was he in that were basically a coin flip? If he loses he goes home and we have no idea who he is now.

Just wondering BMD, how many chips did the guy who called have?

91Tastethewaste
      ID: 22841815
      Thu, Oct 14x, 2004, 16:12
With 2 people before you limping in, there is no way you should limp in with pocket 7s, 9s, or 10s. 10 9 suited fine, but the idea would be to eliminate other hands so they dont get lucky on the flop. If you want to slow play a pocket pair against 1 or 2 players fine, but when you just limp in with a pocket pair with 2 already limped in and almost definitely the small blind calling and the big blind at best checking, youre in a 5 way race and suddenly your medium pocket pair doesnt look so good, thats why im saying he probably didnt think you had any of those combinations. The only hand in that scenerio that i would think you might have would be a jack 8, which means you flopped the straight. If he puts you on a flush draw hes the favorite even with all your outs.

So its just a case of playing conservative or not, it another spade comes out he still has 2 pair, at that point you can slow play considering everyone else folded and let him do the betting thinking his 2 pair is good. If you bet half your stack like you did without the flush he probably still calls, if not you still take down the pot.

What i wouldve probably done in your situation anyway is raise preflop. You dont have the best hand but you probably had the 2 limpers before you beat. Maybe the big blind doesnt even stay in if you raise pre flop. Without raising preflop to many people got to see the flop, one of them is bound to hit something.
92Tastethewaste
      ID: 22841815
      Thu, Oct 14x, 2004, 16:14
By the way, i cant remember but did raymer ever actually go all in, he was the chip leader pretty much from the get go wasnt he?

I also remember that young kid murphy i think his name was, who played great and then risked his whole stack and lost, and i think he was in the top 3 in the chip lead, so thats the consequence of gambling.
93Sludge
      ID: 54692111
      Thu, Oct 14x, 2004, 16:29
I also remember that young kid murphy i think his name was, who played great and then risked his whole stack and lost, and i think he was in the top 3 in the chip lead, so thats the consequence of gambling.

I certainly wouldn't recommend gambling a large portion of your stack to someone that's already in a good position. In addition, it all depends on the stakes, really. Utility theory. How much are the winnings worth to you? I'm sitting there in a no-limit hold 'em freeroll tourney the other night with pocket 10's, and I call a guy who went way over the top after the turn when there was a flush and straight draw possible (three connected diamonds plus one non-diamond over card - a Q I believe). I guessed the guy was bluffing, and I was right (he was calling and checking up until that point). What do I care if I lose? I lose a chance to be one of 9 that's entered into a satellite to a satellite where I'll probably get my ass handed to me? Oh the horror! (Of course, this is actually a good reason not to play the free tourneys, but it can be fun for me, a mediocre player, to get to laugh at all the really bad players out there.)
94beastiemiked
      Sustainer
      ID: 03531815
      Thu, Oct 14x, 2004, 17:18
Frick, he had about 8500 chips.

With 2 people before you limping in, there is no way you should limp in with pocket 7s, 9s, or 10s.

This is a 10 player table and I was in middle position. Raising with 10's, 9's, or 7's is not a great play with 2 limpers already in the pot. With medium pocket pairs you want a lot of callers and hopefully you'll hit your set. If you don't, it's an easy fold. I'll raise with medium pocket pairs in certain situations but with 2 limpers in the pot and 5 yet to act the risk/reward is too great to raise with these hands.

The only hand in that scenerio that i would think you might have would be a jack 8, which means you flopped the straight.

Sorry, I would never play jack 8 unless it's from the blinds or an attempt from the button to steal.

What i wouldve probably done in your situation anyway is raise preflop. You dont have the best hand but you probably had the 2 limpers before you beat. Maybe the big blind doesnt even stay in if you raise pre flop. Without raising preflop to many people got to see the flop, one of them is bound to hit something.

Raising with A8 suited when you are an average stack and there are 5 players behind you left to act is a bad play. There are way too many hands that have you dominated for you to even think about raising with that in middle position.




95culdeus
      ID: 309551415
      Thu, Oct 14x, 2004, 17:55
Semi-funny story, my poker partner for my upcoming trip broke his keyboard over his knee (s) after being beaten on a nut flush by 4 7's for a pretty big pot for him.

96Species
      Leader
      ID: 07724916
      Thu, Oct 14x, 2004, 18:04
lol culdeus

Re: Raymer - my recollection was that he was typically strong in those "coin flip" situations when he called all-in bets from others. He might have had one where he was all-in early on, but for the majority of the time he was very strong and only risking 25-33% of his stack, it seemed.
97tastethewaste
      ID: 56848121
      Thu, Oct 14x, 2004, 22:20
Sorry, I would never play jack 8 unless it's from the blinds or an attempt from the button to steal.

OK, so that means the only thing i would put you on would be on a draw in which case if i had 2 pair i know i have you beat going into the turn.

Raising with 10's, 9's, or 7's is not a great play with 2 limpers already in the pot. With medium pocket pairs you want a lot of callers and hopefully you'll hit your set.

As for your position, its not the best position but i would think you would want to get rid of limpers. This is hypothetitical anyway since you didnt have a pocket pair. If you did, especially 10s or 9s how do you not raise to get rid of the previous limpers and put the blinds to the test so they dont get a free and half price flop?
Relying on making a set when only 2 cards in the deck can help you is not very aggressive and in fact devalues a pocket pair greatly.

Raising with A8 suited when you are an average stack and there are 5 players behind you left to act is a bad play. There are way too many hands that have you dominated for you to even think about raising with that in middle position.

So instead you play conservatively and let 5 others see the flop and then after a 300 dollar bet you basically go all in on a draw. I dont think that you made a very good play then. Doesnt that contradict your argument? You had 14 outs, certainly a reasonable chance to hit but why not see that turn for 300 rather than your tournament life.

98Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 178511913
      Fri, Oct 15, 2004, 11:33
beastie, I like how you played it. Did you consider
moving all-in instead of just raising 1500 (since you're
not going to fold to a reraise instead)? I doubt it would
change much here, as the guy with 2 pair will probably
call. Since you have such a strong draw that cannot
fold once you make the 1500 chip raise, but you'd be
happy to have everyone fold and give you the pot, I
think moving in can be a decent play.

And I disagree with the logic that he "only" had a draw.
He ended up being against two pair and he was still 50/
50 to have the winning hand on the end. If he had
been up against KT, he would have been a favorite in
the hand. It doesn't matter who has the better hand on
the flop -- all that matters is who has the best chance to
have the best hand when all the cards are out.
99Tastethewaste
      ID: 22841815
      Fri, Oct 15, 2004, 11:38
Hes an underdog 45.1 % chance of winning. Sure its a good draw, but he has to know hes down if someone in 2nd position after the flop has raised the pot. Bottom line as i said before its not a bad play but youre risking all your chips with nothing but a draw when you didnt have to.
100Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 178511913
      Fri, Oct 15, 2004, 11:56
I'm not very experienced at no-limit, but my
understanding is that if you have a strong draw which is
a coin flip or better against all hands (which is almost
the case here, though against a set or straight, it's a
little less than that), and there is some chance that your
opponent will lay his hand down to a raise (the chance
might only need to be 5% or 10%, which would mean
that he still call most of the time), then raising (possibly
moving in, depending on stack sizes) has the best
expectation. You will all the chips in the pot at that
point if he folds, and you win all the chips half the time
when he calls.

The danger with just calling the flop is that if a blank
comes, you can be bet out of the hand and never get to
see the river. So you don't win any of the pot half of the
time when your draw would have come through. And if
your draw does come through on the turn, even a half-
decent player might know to fold his hand when you bet
strongly.

I agree that there is merit to both just calling and
raising. But if I understand the theory correctly, there is
actually more merit to raising than calling. I'm not sure
if certain aspects of this being tournament play, as
opposed to straight no-limit ring game play, influences
the decision enough to make calling better.
101Chuck
      Sustainer
      ID: 169212110
      Sat, Oct 16, 2004, 02:44
This is always a fun one... even if it is on the penny tables. :)

Out of curiosity, do you guys think I waited to bet too late? In this case it worked, and I was playing the guy-- he had been re-raising all-in on the river numerous times, though he was never called. I was hoping he was going to bet into me and I would check-raise him, instead it worked just the opposite in the end.

Seat 1: Obi Juan ($5.25 in chips)
Seat 3: Chuck42181 ($8.99 in chips)
Seat 4: EatTheseNuts ($1.88 in chips)
Seat 7: outlawbc ($1.29 in chips)
Chuck42181: posts small blind $0.01
EatTheseNuts: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Chuck42181 [Jd As]
outlawbc: folds
outlawbc leaves the table
Obi Juan: raises $0.08 to $0.10
Chuck42181: calls $0.09
EatTheseNuts: folds
*** FLOP *** [Ad 7d 5d]
Chuck42181: checks
Obi Juan: checks
*** TURN *** [Ad 7d 5d] [Ac]
Chuck42181: checks
Obi Juan: checks
*** RIVER *** [Ad 7d 5d Ac] [Ah]
fast25 has returned
Chuck42181: bets $0.22
Obi Juan: raises $4.93 to $5.15 and is all-in
Chuck42181: calls $4.93
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Obi Juan: shows [Ks Kh] (a full house, Aces full of Kings)
Chuck42181: shows [Jd As] (four of a kind, Aces)
Chuck42181 collected $10.02 from pot
102TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sun, Oct 24, 2004, 15:03
I am creating an account on Paradise Poker. Anyone want to give me their email address to put in as their referral?
103ChicagoTRS
      Leader
      ID: 566152116
      Tue, Oct 26, 2004, 08:32
Any new poker stories?

Here is a recent memorable hand for me:

2.50-5.00 NL - I am in the dealer position.

Get dealt 8-9 diamonds. Betting to me, already 5 limp in the pot for $5 so I decide to call as I like this hand multi-way with position. Small blind raises it to $25...damn likely have to fold. Except 4 people call the $25 raise so I decide with this many people in the pot (plus I was up a good amount on the night already) I decide to gamble a little and call.

Flop: 5-6-7 rainbow =) could not ask for a better flop. Everyone checks around the table to me. With $150+ already in the pot I decide I can get away with a decent size bet and still get a caller or two because it will look like a steal. So I bet $70. Get one caller.

Turn: J - player checks to me...I bet $200...he calls.

River: 10 - player bets $100...I put him all in for ~$150 more.

He shows 6-7 for two pair...I show the straight. Kind of a miracle flop but definitely a fun hand...I figured him for a set or overpair.

104ChicagoTRS
      Leader
      ID: 566152116
      Tue, Oct 26, 2004, 13:20
Another memorable hand from the past week.

5-10 NL 6 handed table online. Very loose aggressive players.

I have 55 (presto) in a later position...limp in calling a $20 bet. 4 players in to see the flop. Flop comes 3-3-8...checks all around...Turn comes a 2...$10 bet everyone calls...I am kind of limping at this point...think there is a pretty good chance I have the best hand at the moment...River comes a 5 giving me 5s full of 3s...also put a flush and straight possibility on the board. Early player makes a pot size bet of ~$130. I smile...I figure he made a draw but I made a bigger draw. I raise him all-in for about $300 more. He must smile. Player immediately calls and shows 3-3 for four of a kind 3s...and takes the pot.

Really don't think there was much I could do on this hand...it was the right time to slow play for him...just hoping someone else picked up a hand and he got his wish. The only thing that could have saved me was some betting to get me to fold on the flop or turn...once I filled up on the river there was no way I was going to not lose all of my money on that hand.
105R9
      Leader
      ID: 02624472
      Wed, Oct 27, 2004, 00:00
I had what could probably be called a miracle run at my last tournament. Not really for the big money you guys play at (was a 5$ entry, 46 players) but was fun nonetheless.

I made the final table (10 players), but was the obvious short stack with only 4,000$ left. (BB was 2,000$, average stack was 46,000$) Only the top 5 got paid out, so I wasn't looking forward to any winnings, but as this was only my 3rd money tourney ever I wasn't too unhappy with my expected 10th place finish. First hand I get dealt JQ, and obviously go all-in. Four people call, so I can actually make 16k if I can catch anything. Flop looks useless with A/low/low rainbow. Turn comes K, river comes 10, and I'm still in. The table laughs. Second hand I get dealt 10/J, and go all-in again. Get a couple callers, flop comes K/A/?, lots of betting between the two, which looks bad for me. River is a Q, both flip over two pairs, and the table laughs again when I take the smaller main pot.

I lay low for a while and watch them knock each other out, and creep into the final 5. I'm actually taking home a prize! I'm the obvious short stack again though, so I'm content to finish where I am. Ten hands and five coin-flip hands later, I'm tied in chips with the only other guy left. I had 3 pocket pairs (6's, 7's and 10's) vs. overcards and two overcards vs. pocket pairs, and all my hands held up or caught something. The table is no longer laughing. ;) The other guy and I trade a few small pots, then I get dealt A/7 hearts on the button. Flop comes two hearts, turn is useless, and the river is another heart. He had bet small leading up to the river, but when the 3rd heart fell he went all in. Couldn't believe it. He turns over K/8 hearts. Poor guy. ;)

So I go from 10th and practically nothing, all the way to first (and 92$) thanks to two silly straight draws, 5 straight coin flip wins, and a dream matchup of K-high and A-high flushes. I wish I could claim I played brilliantly, but a monkey could've won with the cards I got. :)
106rockafellerskank
      Dude
      ID: 27652109
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 00:57
Every now and then you can get lucky...

Playing $0.50/$1 $25 N/L and I meant to hit CALL after the flop (with my 2 paid 9s/6s), but hits FOLD by mistake. You can see/guess how much filling this 9s over 6s full boat would have cost me!

***** Hand History for Game 1113820157 *****
0/0 TexasHTGameTable (NL) - Fri Oct 29 00:39:31 EDT 2004
Table Table 11407 (Real Money) -- Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: SUSAN821 ( $8.25)
Seat 2: MSPOKERCHAMP ( $45.35)
Seat 3: joedinny ( $54.2)
Seat 4: RudolphKnobs ( $18.25)
Seat 5: Cr11sh ( $17)
Seat 6: dixiegrey30 ( $25)
Seat 7: Goose779 ( $40.45)
Seat 8: huddybrown ( $21.02)
Seat 9: KATIND ( $11.22)
Seat 10: skankboy ( $49.96) <-- at risk
KATIND posts small blind (0.25)
skankboy posts big blind (0.5)
dixiegrey30 posts big blind (0.5)
Goose779 posts big blind + dead (0.75)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to skankboy [ 6h, 9s ]
SUSAN821 folds.
MSPOKERCHAMP calls (0.5)
joedinny folds.
RudolphKnobs folds.
Cr11sh folds.
dixiegrey30 checks.
Goose779 checks.
huddybrown calls (0.5)
KATIND calls (0.25)
skankboy checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 6s, 9c, Tc ]
KATIND checks.
skankboy checks. <--- I have no idea why?
MSPOKERCHAMP bets (3)
dixiegrey30 folds.
Goose779 calls (3)
huddybrown folds.
KATIND folds.
skankboy folds. <-- mis-clicked!
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 9d ]<-- bummed!!!
MSPOKERCHAMP checks.
Goose779 bets (6)
MSPOKERCHAMP calls (6)
** Dealing River ** : [ Th ]
MSPOKERCHAMP checks.
Goose779 checks.
** Summary **
Main Pot: $20.2 | Rake: $1.05
Board: [ 6s 9c Tc 9d Th ]
SUSAN821 balance $8.25, didn't bet (folded)
MSPOKERCHAMP balance $35.85, lost $9.5 [ Qc Qd ] [ two pairs, queens and tens -- Qc,Qd,Tc,Th,9c ]
joedinny balance $54.2, didn't bet (folded)
RudolphKnobs balance $18.25, didn't bet (folded)
Cr11sh balance $17, didn't bet (folded)
dixiegrey30 balance $24.5, lost $0.5 (folded)
Goose779 balance $50.9, bet $9.75, collected $20.2, net +$10.45 [ 7s Td ] [ a full house, Tens full of nines -- Td,Tc,Th,9c,9d ]
huddybrown balance $20.52, lost $0.5 (folded)
KATIND balance $10.72, lost $0.5 (folded)
skankboy balance $49.46, lost $0.5 (folded) <-- saved about $40 that i'm sure i would have bet!


107ChicagoTRS
      ID: 28953121
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 01:33
RFS...Once that 10 hit the river you would have had to played it somewhat conservative (if you didn't have all of your money in already).

That happens to me all of the time (not accidently folding but being forced out of a hand and seeing your miracle card come only to realize I would have been crushed by a bigger hand)...it especially drives me nuts when it is a hand I would normally play but the preflop betting/raising forces me to fold...and then you get a great flop.
108ChicagoTRS
      ID: 28953121
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 01:43
Nice(lucky) hand from tonight...

2-4 NL 10 handed...pretty solid table...get dealt 77...$12 before the flop...I call, 3 people in the pot.

Flop 10-A-7...both players check to me...I bet $19...both call.

Turn Q...both players check again...I bet $50...preflop raiser puts me all-in for $160 more...no read on this player...but I can't lay down my set here...I am hoping AQ...but there are a lot of hands out there that crush me...I call anyway.

River...my case 7.

I take the pot with 4 of a kind 7s. The other player mucks and will not tell me what she had...figure I sucked out with that 7. About an hour later the hand finally shows up in the hand history...she had pocket aces and was way ahead until that river. She had to be steamed. Feels good to be on the other end of one of those for once...can't count the number of times people have miracled me on the last card.
109louky
      ID: 24193023
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 02:06
Hey guys, not on the boards much any more, but playing quite a bit at party poker... mostly 5-10, and some 10-20. Screen name is louky1960, if any gurupies are playin be sure to say hello. Having good luck there, 1st and 5th in $50 multi NL tourneys this month.
110beastiemiked
      Sustainer
      ID: 03531815
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 09:57
Having good luck there, 1st and 5th in $50 multi NL tourneys this month.

Wow, congrats. How many people were in those tournies?


I finished 2nd in a $15 freezeout against 192 players over at Gaming Club on Tuesday. I thought the field was fairly weak as the majority of my chips came from either stealing the blinds or betting/reraising after the flop with nothing. I also played in a $20 rebuy tourney yesterday and even though I busted out(I was a little below an average stack and lost in a race situation) about 20 before the money I could tell the field was pretty weak. During the rebuy period there was little preflop raises yet after the flop guys would go all in with middle pair and no draw. These are only 2 multi tournies but they seem very beatable in the long run. Of course with multi-table tournies that long run could be after 500 tournaments.
111Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 10:07
Do you guys think there is sufficient interest for me to set up a separate Poker Forum? And if so, should the topic be broader than Poker?
112beastiemiked
      Sustainer
      ID: 03531815
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 10:12
It should be broader than poker. Something that could incorporate threads like the dvd and music threads over in the politics forum.
113FRICK
      ID: 268522714
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 10:16
I agree, could you make it a Misc. Forum, or OT Forum.

I know there is also a thread in the football Forum talking about Grand Theft Auto currently.

Do feel that these threads should all be directed to a new Forum, or would people continue to post in the Forum that they post most often in/current sport?



114Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 10:33
An off-topic forum. Hmmmm.....

Would anything be off-topic in an off-topic forum?
115ChicagoTRS
      Leader
      ID: 566152116
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 10:45
Poker is so hot right now that a seperate forum may actually generate some new visitors to the web site. I am not sure if we have the current traffic that it needs its own forum but then again I guess that in the past few months since we started these threads there have been over 1000 posts regarding poker. I don't think it is much of a reach for this web site as poker is just another game and in some ways has parallels to fantasy sports type games...statistics, game theory, different strategies, professional players, etc...

I would love to see it get its own forum as it may increase the amount of people posting and talking about poker.
116rockafellerskank
      Dude
      ID: 27652109
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 10:52
Poker and Games forum? Entertainment forum?

Could include poker, DVDs, MP3s and music, movies, TV, video games (reviews and tips, etc...), books and geneal entertainment.

I'd like to disucss to 7 card stud strategy....

117Species
      Leader
      ID: 07724916
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 11:35
I like rfs' "Entertainment" forum idea. No poker doesn't deserve it's own forum.
118louky
      ID: 24193023
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 12:46
bmd, there are usually about 600-800 in those tourneys. The winners share when I won was 9020.00. It was the perfect scenerio...dealt 99. I was SB and and made the minimum raise, the guy calls. Flop is 9K9. made the minimum bet again, and lucky for me the guy played KQ, so he goes all in, and that was that.

I've done well in those by just being VERY tight the 1st hour, with 720 players (that seems to be the # alot) if you survive til the 1st break, an hour, the field is down to about half. From there it seems to boil down to how well you flop, the night I won, my 44's beat a guy's QQ's. That hand put me near the chip leaders, later at the final table I knocked the same guy out when I had QQ vs his JJ. Bottom line, what I've done is just make the top 90, get my $ back plus, then hope the flop gods are with me when it's time to double.
119beastiemiked
      Sustainer
      ID: 03531815
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 14:28
That's a nice little sum. I thought my $550 score was pretty sweet but it pales to the 9 grand. I hope you went out and bought yourself something nice. I know I immediately cashed out half my prize so I don't ever end up giving it back to them.

I agree about playing tight in the opening rounds. Playing a hand like KJ or QT in any position can get you in deep trouble. I normally play straight up in the early stages because a lot of the weaker players will hand their chips to you so there's no reason to get ultra aggressive. As the tourney progresses that's when blind steals and bluffs become necessary. A4 UTG might not look that great but from the cutoff with no one in the pot it's definitely worthy of a raise.
120GoatLocker
      Sustainer
      ID: 060151121
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 15:51
Since you have the horse racing forum that is not seeing much action, why not a Gaming / Entertainment forum that could cover horses, poker, etc.

JMHO.

Cliff
121louky
      ID: 24193023
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 17:43
bmd, I pull 25% of my bankroll each week, sorta semi retired now, I've been doing this for a few months now. Playing mostly 5-10, you can make a few bucks there, and there enough bad players that over a weeks time I almost allways show a profit. The tourney's are a bonus, usually play about 2 or 3 a week.
122Micheal
      ID: 25381417
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 17:56
Just out of curiosity, how much is a few bucks?
123TaRhEElKiD
      ID: 40612721
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 19:28
Not sure which issue, but check the recent Sports Illustrated issues and look for a Rick Reily article that bashes poker on TV. It is actually pretty funny...

THK
124beastiemiked
      ID: 262411016
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 19:52
One thing about Multi's is you have to catch some cards at some point in the tourney. I'm playing in a multi right now and after 2 hours my best starting hand has been AQ followed by pocket 7's. The only reason I'm still in is because I quadrupled up on a semi-bluff flush draw and hit. It's no fun being short stacked.
125louky
      ID: 24193023
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 21:05
Michael, I've been running between 300-1200 a week, excluding tourneys.

bmd, which site do you play, and how did your multi finish?
126Micheal
      ID: 25381417
      Fri, Oct 29, 2004, 23:28
DOLLARS??? Man, I've gotta get in on this.
127louky
      ID: 24193023
      Sat, Oct 30, 2004, 00:04
bmd, just busted out of a multi, had AK cracked by AQ, after I put the guy all in pre flop, Q on the river doh!! Then short stacked I go all in and the same guy calls me... I have JJ vs his A 10, flop A 10 K, blank on the turn and an A on the river. Oh well, can't win them all.
128beastiemiked
      ID: 262411016
      Sun, Oct 31, 2004, 12:51
I play at Party and Gaming Club.

I had a little lest than average stack about 25 spots away from the money when I was dealt AK in middle position. Everyone folds to me and I bet 2k with the blinds at 400/800. The button and big blind call. Flop comes A K 7 rainbow. The big blind, who was the chip leader at that point, checks I check and the button checks. I was hoping for a bet from the button but I figured even if the button checks the big blind will make a steal attempt on the turn. Turn comes 5 of hearts making a flush draw out there. Big blind makes an odd 800 bet. I immediately raise up to 6k leaving myself with about 7k. The button folds and the big blind thinks for a second and calls. River is a 3 of spades. Big blind checks and should've checked but I bet half my stack and he immediately reraised me all in. I figured I was beat but I was pot committed so I called. He flips over 64 offsuit and rakes the pot and I leave the tourney about 20 spots away from the money which would've been about $90(1st place was 3.5k). I wish I could say I played the hand correctly but I know I didn't.
129APerfect10
      ID: 476262718
      Tue, Nov 02, 2004, 21:54
Played some $1-$2 blinds NL-Hold 'Em this weekend in AC. Got pocket Aces within the first few hands. One guy raised the bet to $15, I re-raise to $30. Then he re-raises me to $45. I figure he must have pocket Kings. I put him all in for $210 and he folds. Shows me the cards and he had Pocket Jacks. Is it me, or is that just a horrible play??
130rockafellerskank
      Dude
      ID: 27652109
      Tue, Nov 02, 2004, 21:56
Horrible play to raise. It was agood play to FINALLY fold.
131wiggs
      Donor
      ID: 04991311
      Tue, Nov 02, 2004, 22:08
AP10, only thing that makes sense if he thought you were trying to buy the pot. Either way, seems stupid to me.

I had a tough one tonight, playing a 2-4 NL table. I was dealt KQ of diamonds. I was big blind and everyone called. I just checked, pot was at 32 dollars. Flop comes out 4-7-9 all diamonds, I hit my staight, I slow play and bet 4 dollars, called by 3 then the 4th guy goes all in with 46 dollars, everyone folds to me, I call, next 2 fold and last guy calls. Pot is now at 186 dollars and I am feeling great. Next card comes out 2 of clubs. I go all in with 51 more and it gets called pot is at 288 dollars, all cards are shown. The first all in has rockets, unfortunately 1 is a diamond, other all in has 8-2 of diamonds, he has a flush but mine takes his out. As long as another diamond doesnt hit I am sitting pretty, especially with that many on the board. Just my luck, last card 3 of diamonds. I lost that nuce pot. Those losses are hard to take, but I guess is better then losing the hands where you have rockets and get beat by 2 7 offsuit because the flop came out 772. Oh well, enough complaining.
132APerfect10
      ID: 476262718
      Tue, Nov 02, 2004, 22:21
Wow, talk about bad luck; that sucks.

I got lucky somemore after my Aces hands. I was about even after sitting there for a few hours and not playing much and just paying the blinds. I get A-Q off-suit in an early position.

I raise to $15 and 3 ro 4 people call. Flop comes A-Q-8. I bet $20 and the guy next to me folds, but the 2 or 3 others call. I figure them both for an Ace with a decent kicker. Turn is a Jack. I feel I have the best hand and go all-in for another $250. Didn't want anyone to have A-K and get lucky with a 10 on the River. Everyone folds and I win around $100. Turns out the guy who folded after the flop had K-10. The Jack on the turn would have given him teh straight but he didn't wanna risk $20+ for the gut-shot draw. Good thing I came out firing after teh flop.
133ChicagoTRS
      ID: 211047122
      Tue, Nov 02, 2004, 23:55
To keep on the flush draw theme...big hand I lost Friday night...

10-20 NL 10-handed table...have had an incredible run of winning the past two months so I figure I can experiment with the big boys. Sit down with $1200.

After about 30 minutes of play I am sitting with ~$1300 after stealing a pot of two and losing a pot or two...just up a little. Feeling pretty comfortable at this level...it is a lot of money but had convinced myself to play my game and try and ignore the dollar amounts being thrown around. Table is playing pretty fast and loose...a lot of raising reraising...a style I like to play against if I can get cards to go to war with.

Then this hand comes up...dealt pocket AA. I few people in and I raise the pot to $200...get one caller...A loose player I am pretty familiar with.

Flop all unders but two diamonds...check to me...I make a pot size bet wanting to just take the pot down and protect from the flush draw...other player raises to $800...I think I am ahead (at least hope I am) so I push all-in...if I am going to make the call might as well push in as I figure I am pot committed and the money will be going in the pot at the turn. He calls the all-in and shows A-4 diamonds...has a pair of 4s with the flush draw giving him 11 outs (9 diamonds and 2 4s) of course he hits the diamond on the river and I lose a +$2600 pot. He didn't have the pot odds to make that kind of play but he hit his diamond so what can you do.

That really hurt as that was a monster pot (for me anyway)...ended up coming back and only losing $500 on the night...just marked it down as a learning experience...don't think I played it wrong.

Pocket AA getting crushed all weekend as I won a big pot when I hit 4 of a kind on the river vs set aces who filled up on the river.

134Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 12107917
      Wed, Nov 10, 2004, 18:16
I've just started playing poker online and am trying to take my game seriously. Right now, I'm playing low stakes $0.50/$1.00 limit HE, with a starting bankroll of $100. My goal is to bring that up to $400, which would hopefully be some evidence that I know what I am doing enough to beat some really awful players. (I'm about halfway there now.)

The thing is, I'd really like to make this bankroll last and slowly move up to higher and higher limits. (I was thinking of trying $0.50/$1.00 Omaha Hi/Lo next for a little bit, just so I can also vary what games I play. Then I could move up to $1/2 HE with an ample bankroll of say $500.) Though it won't be relevant to me for a long time, I am curious about people's feelings for what kind of bankroll you should have in the following situations:

1) Playing a loose limit game that you feel comfortable you can beat

2) Playing a limit game that you think you can beat, but maybe not by very much

3) Playing a loose no limit game that you feel comfortable you can beat

4) Playing a no limit game that you think you can beat, but maybe not by very much

Given how big swings can occur so frequently, I wonder how many BBs (big bets in the case of limit, big blinds in the case of no limit) are needed to have an adequate bankroll in each of these cases. One possible assumption is that you want a 99% (or more generally x%) degree of certainty that you won't go bust due to the variance in the game.
135TaRhEElKiD
      ID: 40612721
      Wed, Nov 10, 2004, 19:30
#3) If you can find a loose NL game there is nothing better if you play correctly.

THK
136ChicagoTRS
      ID: 211047122
      Wed, Nov 10, 2004, 23:42
Generally in Limit you want 200-300 the BB.

In No Limit you want 6-8x the buy-in.

Then again a lot of depends on what kind of player you are. If you are very tight there is generally less swings...if you are loose aggressive you will need more to absorb the swings...if you are very bad it doesn't matter how much money you have.

I would suggest learning to beat one game consistently before changing games and limits.
Play at least a 100 hours at one type game. Or play until you can beat a game 8 out of 10 sessions. Win at a level for awhile...take some money out...know you can beat a game...then you are ready to step up levels.
137Chuck
      Sustainer
      ID: 169212110
      Mon, Nov 15, 2004, 01:29
I won this hand (my biggest pot ever). I'm just wondering if you guys would have done the whole thing. Would you have played this the same way with all the same moves? The fact that he never re-raised made me confident he only had top pair. This was a guy who just sat down at the table, so I had no history of his aggressiveness.

PokerStars Game #859518661: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2004/11/15 - 01:14:05
(ET)
Table 'Kalypso' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: JBRrounder ($78.95 in chips)
Seat 5: Chuck42181 ($212 in chips)
Seat 6: Witzo ($166.50 in chips)
Seat 9: sherryjones ($46 in chips)
JBRrounder: posts small blind $1
Chuck42181: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Chuck42181 [Ah As]
Witzo: raises $4 to $6
sherryjones: folds
JBRrounder: folds
Chuck42181: raises $4 to $10
Witzo: calls $4
*** FLOP *** [6s 8d Qc]
Chuck42181: bets $20
Witzo: calls $20
*** TURN *** [6s 8d Qc] [Jh]
Chuck42181: bets $50
Witzo: calls $50
*** RIVER *** [6s 8d Qc Jh] [5s]
Chuck42181: bets $132 and is all-in
Witzo: calls $86.50 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Chuck42181: shows [Ah As] (a pair of Aces)
Witzo: mucks hand
Chuck42181 collected $332 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $334 | Rake $2
Board [6s 8d Qc Jh 5s]
Seat 1: JBRrounder (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Chuck42181 (big blind) showed [Ah As] and won ($332) with a pair of Aces
Seat 6: Witzo mucked [Kh Qs] - a pair of Queens
Seat 9: sherryjones (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
138ChicagoTRS
      Leader
      ID: 566152116
      Mon, Nov 15, 2004, 11:13
No problem with how you played it. Dangerous hand when you are out of position because with the smooth calls of the big bets you have to fear a made set but not much you can do about it...you have to figure you are facing either: top pair good kicker, made set, KK, if it is a real loose player there is the chance of two pair but your preflop raise should eliminate that type hand.

With the big calls of your bets you have to figure you are at least 50/50 depending on the read on the opponent...the fact that the table was so shorthanded would also give me some confidence you are in good shape. I have won and lost in that same spot many times.

One reason I will sometimes make big preflop calls with a pocket pair. If my opponent has a big enough stack and I also have enough money on the table and I figure him for AA or KK....sometimes I will call that 5-10x big blind preflop raise knowing if I get my set I will likely be able to double up. Implied odds...
139ukula
      ID: 259101021
      Tue, Nov 16, 2004, 06:34
Has anyone ever used an odds calculator while playing online?

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