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Subject: Bonds Admits Steroid Use Posted by: Razor - [581046117] Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 00:33 link Apparently, he's using the "but I didn't know what it was" argument. Hmmm...the guy supposedly is control of everything around him, takes immaculate care of his body, but doesn't know what he's putting into it on a regular basis? Meanwhile, he's getting much bigger and stronger, his bat speed has increased drastically and his numbers are out of this world and he still doesn't question what Anderson is giving him? That is a total fabrication. | |||||||
| 40 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 2824911 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 15:41 |
Then take all of Bonds' records set after the steroid ban was put in place out of the books. It's not as though steroids were encouraged in baseball. What do you mean by his "records"? In 2004 Bonds broke his own single season record for walks with 232. Are you saying that his name and that stat should no longer appear at the top of the single season walks list? If so, what about when we turn to his stats page for the 2004 season? Should there be a blank space where his walks total would normally be? | ||||||
| 41 | Razor ID: 221033012 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 15:53 |
As ridiculous as it sounds, in my ideal world, a blank space would appear where his 2004 statline is. Same for Caminiti, Canseco, Giambi, etc. Check out the 1980 national runner-up in the NCAA Tourney It's not the same, but it's not totally different either. | ||||||
| 42 | WiddleAvi ID: 39401623 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 15:59 | If you are putting asterisks next to Bonds numbers then there should be an asterisk next to every teams W-L record for the last 10 years. I believe more along the line of 50% of players are taking steroids. Every stat for the last x number of years should have an asterisk next to it. | ||||||
| 43 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 2824911 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 16:02 | Razor you are then calling for massive discrepencies through the baseball stats records. As much as baseball purists detest steroid-enhanced stats, I'm sure few would accept that. | ||||||
| 44 | Tree ID: 76471215 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 16:21 | i think we should also PAD the stats of great players who ruined their careers by drinking or taking other, illicit drugs. | ||||||
| 45 | Micheal ID: 25381417 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 16:25 |
If steroids wasn't banned until 2003, then how was Bonds cheating prior to '03? He used a substance that made him stronger than those who didn't use it, but so what, it wasn't specically banned. About him lying, get real! Does anyone really expect him or any player to tell the truth until they absolutely have to? If you are doing something you're not supposed to be doing, would you admit it just because someone asked if you were doing it? | ||||||
| 46 | R9 Leader ID: 02624472 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 16:30 |
Well now, if it was alright because it wasn't banned, why would he want to hide it? Mcgwire didn't hide his Andro... Removing records from the record book is never going to happen, weather its a good idea or not. Simply putting an asterik next to any punk who gets caught lets anyone looking at the record know he was roided, and thus able to perform better then others. If that happens to be 50% of MLB players of the last decade, then so be it. Everyone is already looking back on the 90's 'power hitter era' with alot of skepticm anyway, it would be nice for the record books to do the same. | ||||||
| 47 | tastethewaste ID: 56848121 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 17:29 |
Do we even know if Bonds used steroids in 04? Does it bother anyone that Giambi and Bonds testimony was leaked to the press. Im not a lawyer but isnt that illegal? | ||||||
| 48 | Ender Donor ID: 013443221 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 17:38 | Yes, it is illegal. | ||||||
| 49 | tastethewaste ID: 56848121 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 17:42 | and does that bother you? | ||||||
| 50 | Mike D Sustainer ID: 041831612 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 17:57 |
From the article in post 3: "Bonds' attorney, Michael Rains, said Friday that the leak of grand jury testimony was an attempt to smear his client. Grand jury transcripts are sealed and the Chronicle did not say who showed them the documents." | ||||||
| 51 | Mike D Sustainer ID: 041831612 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 17:59 | Eventually some of this may have become discoverable, or eventually the case itself may be pushed forward, in which case further testimony by Bonds and others would then become discoverable. The key here is the info was leaked prematurely, which isn't right. That being said, the info is certainly newsworthy and controversial. | ||||||
| 52 | Cosmo's Cod Piece ID: 144192417 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 18:02 |
Khahan: "I noticed nobody is calling for Giambi to be banned from baseball in the Giambi thread. Its nice an convenient to mention here, in passing, that oh yeah, all steroid users should be banned. Face it. Many of you simply hate Bonds." The reason why I'm so outraged is because I LIKE Bonds. One of the reasons why I purchase the MLB Season Pass is to watch him play. I stay up until 12CST just to watch one man play baseball because I believe he's the greatest of all time and there'll probably not be another talent like his for at least a generation. | ||||||
| 53 | Mike D Sustainer ID: 041831612 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 18:05 |
Here is a different case where the Judge recently ruled that grand jury transcripts could be released. This is the Spector case (rock music producer Phil Spector), and the Judge pointed out that in his opinion "Spector's lawyers had failed to show that release of the documents would create a reasonable likelihood that a fair jury could not be found for his trial." I could eventually see the argument being made in the BALCO case. We just haven't gotten there yet. | ||||||
| 54 | Mike D Sustainer ID: 041831612 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 18:08 |
As expected, Lawyers Are Frustrated by Leaks in Balco Investigation Doesn't this remind you of the recent Kobe Bryant case??? So much leaked out, it was like it was ALL supposed to be public........ | ||||||
| 55 | Khahan ID: 2884979 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 18:22 |
He used a substance that made him stronger than those who didn't use it... This statement isn't completely accurate. He used a substance that helped make him stronger from his workouts faster than people who did not use it along with their work outs. Yes, he used an illegal substance. Whether baseball banned it or not, he opted to use a substance that has been deemed illegal by the US government. Law abiding players do not have this as an option to enhance their performance. So, Yes, Bonds did gain an unfair advantage. But the fact is, he still has to work his ass off to keep himself in shape. He still has to work to stay strong and gain strength. He still has to work to maintain bat speed. He still has to work to maintain his eye-hand coordiation. People are making it sound like Bonds rubbed this 'linseed' on himself and muscles magically grew. And MITH, post 22. Here is a quote from higher up the page: Any of them that get caught using the juice should receive the Pete Rose Treatment and receive a lifetime ban and become ineligible for the HOF. | ||||||
| 56 | GoatLocker Sustainer ID: 060151121 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 19:15 |
The fact that the Grand Jury data was leaked could end up with the whole mess being thrown out of court and everybody walking. Hmmmmm, wonder why it was leaked. Cliff | ||||||
| 57 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 4494554 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 20:14 | Ah, my bad. I failed to catch the sage ramblings of CCP. | ||||||
| 58 | Razor ID: 581046117 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 20:38 | Khahan, you're mistaken if you don't think EVERY ballplayer works hard. Some harder than others, but I have no doubt that there are tons of guys out there that bust their asses in the winter to try and get better. The fact that Bonds was one of those guys doesn't change the fact that he cheated. He may not have cheated according to the rules (well, actually he did post 2003), but he cheated everyone of those guys who didn't use steroids. The most depressing thing is thinking about all the clean guys in the league who have to sit back and watch these cheaters beat them in games, beat them for awards, beat them for jobs, beat them for contracts, and still keep their mouths shut about it since that's the code. I was always surprised that some hot head pitcher didn't just bean Bonds everytime, or that someone didn't stay on his ass in the media about juicing. Everyone knew. | ||||||
| 59 | Khahan ID: 2884979 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 21:11 |
Razor, I never said every ball player works hard. But Bonds does. I also never said he didn't cheat. He did. He also broke the law. His act was criminal. Though his deal (as well as the deals of others) will keep him from being prosecuted. As for the rest of your post about it being depressing that the clean players keep losing out...I couldn't agree with you more. | ||||||
| 60 | TB Leader ID: 031811922 Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 02:41 | I thought I saw on ESPN where 80% of people polled thought he used steroids before all this came out and are pretty indifferent about it. Razor, I think you are fooling yourself if you don't believe that almost every, if not every, single athlete uses something. How in the heck did athletes get so big in the last 30 years? | ||||||
| 61 | Ref Donor ID: 539581218 Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 12:42 |
You have to work hard for the steroids to do anything for you. You think you can just take them and sit around and your body gets ripped? Steroids not only increase mass, but also decrease the amount of rest you have to give them before they are fully recovered. Point is, maybe I'm naive too, but I firmly believe there are a large number of athletes that are clean. I also don't believe Bonds when he says that he didn't know. Funny how Giambi admitted everything and he's given his stuff from the same guy that Bonds is. Funny how an athlete would inject himself and rub stuff on him and have absolutely no idea what is was or what it did. Bonds must lie to stay out of trouble, but if he's caught lying to the grand jury, he will get jail time I'd expect. Just ask Martha Stewart. It's not the crime, it's the cover-up! | ||||||
| 62 | Tree ID: 510231619 Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 13:19 |
Funny how an athlete would inject himself and rub stuff on him and have absolutely no idea what is was or what it did. did Bonds inject himself with anything? | ||||||
| 63 | Ref Donor ID: 539581218 Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 23:38 |
"According to a transcript of Bonds' Dec. 4, 2003, testimony reviewed by the Chronicle, prosecutors confronted the slugger with documents allegedly detailing the steroids he used -- "the cream," "the clear," human growth hormone, Depo-Testosterone, insulin and a drug for female infertility that can be used to mask steroid use. Source Except for the first two ointments, you inject those other drugs. Since there was no testing before the past two years, you wouldn't even need to mask it. These are the same drugs that were supposedly found in Giambi, but these tests were supposedly anonymous the first year. Giambi admitted to putting everything in him that was supposedly found in him. All I know is what I've been reading, but for those that don't believe that he could have possibly knowingly taken steroids before this cream which was put in flaxseed oil containters, click on human growth on espn.com and see where he's come from, then go and read what some of the experts say about putting on that much lean muscle mass as you get older and determine for yourselves. I am not an expert, but I've formed an opinion based on what I'm seeing and hearing. | ||||||
| 64 | biliruben ID: 3110231016 Mon, Dec 06, 2004, 21:00 |
A good point:f baseball players have been illegally using anabolic steroids. And, in the course of the investigation, Federal law enforcement officials illegally disclosed secret grand jury transcripts to a reporter. | ||||||
| 65 | Perm Dude Dude ID: 030792616 Mon, Dec 06, 2004, 21:02 | Leaks work in the Press' best interest. No one in the Press is going to seriously demand investigations into the source of their stories, sadly. | ||||||
| 66 | biliruben ID: 3110231016 Mon, Dec 06, 2004, 21:04 | Plus, prosecutors don't often have a lot of motivation to prosecute other prosecutors. | ||||||
| 67 | Micheal ID: 25381417 Tue, Dec 07, 2004, 21:28 | MLB is holding off on marketing Bonds' pursuit of the record. | ||||||
| 68 | Razor ID: 221033012 Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 09:25 |
I can't tell you how pleased I am to finally be able to say that I am no longer in an extreme minority of people who view Bonds' "accomplishments" with such rabid contempt. Looking at these pictures, it's hard to believe that some folks actually believed he was clean. 
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| 69 | Myboyjack ID: 1727913 Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 12:42 | Razor nothing about those pictures makes believe one way or another that Bonds' took streoids. | ||||||
| 70 | Tree ID: 76471215 Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 13:34 | wow. he's buff. but i dont see any needle holes. | ||||||
| 71 | Razor ID: 221033012 Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 14:08 | Ya, ya, ya. We've been down this road before. Maybe he didn't look and act like a duck to you, but he sure did to me. | ||||||
| 72 | biliruben ID: 3110231016 Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 14:16 | I'm as much as a Dodger fan as you, Razor (though perhaps not as much of an SF hater), and kudos for guessing right, but geez! You win. Get over it. | ||||||
| 73 | Perm Dude Dude ID: 030792616 Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 14:25 |
Sure, but look at him just six years ago: Quack Quack, I say! | ||||||
| 74 | biliruben ID: 3110231016 Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 14:29 | LOL, PD. Bonds was born a poor, hyper-growth, dryer obsessed white child. | ||||||
| 75 | Mike D Sustainer ID: 41831612 Wed, Dec 08, 2004, 14:55 | Literally LOL bili! Reminds me of the movie The Jerk! | ||||||
| 76 | Razor ID: 581046117 Thu, Dec 09, 2004, 19:32 |
I'm as much as a Dodger fan as you, Razor (though perhaps not as much of an SF hater), and kudos for guessing right, but geez! You win. Get over it. As much flak as I've taken here for my harping on Bonds, I'm going to take my week to gloat. | ||||||
| 77 | Tree ID: 510231619 Thu, Dec 09, 2004, 20:20 |
in all seriousness, i don't get the big deal about those pictures. what are you saying with them? he looks buff? lots of people look like that... | ||||||
| 78 | Razor ID: 581046117 Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 00:11 | Sure Tree, lots of guys do look like that. Of course, how many of them are 40, looked MUCH smaller just 5 years earlier, and aren't on steroids? I bet if you rounded up all the guys around the league that look like Bonds, you'd find a lot of steroids abusers among the bunch. Looking at the 2003 NL MVP vote is a disgrace. You have to go to 7th place to find a guy that doesn't have a better than 50/50 chance of being clean. | ||||||
| 79 | Trip Sustainer ID: 13961611 Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 00:34 |
Razor, You go girl! Seriously, I remember waking my girlfriend (now wife) up to see Bonds hit his 500th. I told her that this was something that she would want to remember. Thank goodness that wasn't my kid. I can't believe the lack of attention this is getiing from the media. It's a (SF) giant yawn. IMM, this is 100x worse than Pete Rose and the salary escalation put together. | ||||||
| 80 | Filthy Rich ID: 35119816 Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 04:41 | Another 40ish player that was scrawnier when younger is Clemens. I'm not trying to imply anything here cause I think Clemens is just a big ole Texan, but honestly everyone's gotta be suspected these days. Just wondering what would be some thoughts if it turned out that a fair amount of pitchers were steroid users. Would that be a 2 wrongs making a right situation, where the hitters and pitchers were both in the wrong so in a sense still having an equal playing field? or is that just ridiculous to even suggest? | ||||||
| 81 | Tree ID: 510231619 Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 07:20 |
athletes in all sports have gotten bigger throughout history. it's the evolution of weight training, of proper dieting, etc etc. i'm not saying the juice isn't out there, but posting photos of buff athletes and using that as proof that guys are sticking needles in their asses is just plain silly. | ||||||
| 82 | Razor ID: 221033012 Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 09:27 |
 Bonds looked like this in his early 30's, and he looked like he does above in his late 30's. Bear in mind Bonds was already in terrific shape. Whatever. I just think it looks like someone stuck a needle in him and just blew him up. There are a lot of big, ripped athletes these days, but for most of their careers, Bonds, Sosa and the Giambis of the world weren't among them. There are definitely pitchers juicing. If there is one pitcher I know was juicing for at least a year, it was Kevin Brown back in 2002. I couldn't believe how big he was when I saw him in person. He probably started using for the same reason a lot of players do: to recover from injury and extend his career. Brown looked tiny this year compared to those days. He may have been juicing for a long time and just started using more when he was seriously injured. I don't know. What I do know is that it is very unlikely that a pitcher at that stage of his career could come back looking that humoungous. | ||||||
| 83 | Razor ID: 221033012 Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 09:43 | Pretty funny cartoon on Bonds/Giambi, that mirrors pretty closely a conversation I had with my girlfriend about 2 1/2 years ago | ||||||
| 85 | Razor ID: 221033012 Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 11:39 | I always hated Bonds, but I respected him until 2001. My being a Dodger fan is only relevant insofar as I have had the opportunity to see him more than most fans, and thus, are more cognizant of the change and are more concerned by the effects on the game. I bet if Manny Ramirez started hitting 70 homers and the Sox started having sustained success because of it, we'd see a lot of AL East and Yankee fans jumping all over him. Kind of a joke that I can't mention Bonds without being called a Dodger fan. I hate steroids more than I hate the Giants because I love baseball more than I love the Dodgers. | ||||||
| 86 | Tree ID: 76471215 Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 12:22 |
Razor - what about Mark McGwire? what's your thoughts on him? or Gaylord Perry? they used banned substances. seriously, you have a hard-on for your hatred of barry bonds...who, btw, looks fabulously hunky in that top photo. what a chest on that man! pitcher George Frazier: I don't put any foreign substances on the baseball. Everything I use is from the good old U.S.A. Gabe Paul, Cleveland Indians president, defending his pitcher Gaylord Perry against accusations that he threw a spitter: Gaylord is a very honorable man. He only throws the spitter when he needs it. Perry, when shortstop Todd Cruz fielded a routine grounder, then threw it 30 rows into the stands-an error that cost Perry a 1-0 game, instead of blaming Cruz, said: Too much stuff on the ball. Allison Perry, 5-year old daughter of pitcher Perry, when asked by a reporter if her daddy threw a grease ball: It's a hard slider. | ||||||
| 87 | Sludge ID: 54692111 Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 12:49 | To be precise, Tree, McGwire did not use a banned (at the time) substance. | ||||||
| 88 | ChicagoTRS ID: 251011111 Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 12:57 |
"To be precise, Tree, McGwire did not use a banned (at the time) substance." So he claims...pretty good chance he was using more than just Andro... | ||||||
| 89 | Ender Donor ID: 013443221 Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 16:45 | And the shame is even if he was, it still wasn't banned. | ||||||
| 90 | Ref Donor ID: 539581218 Sat, Dec 11, 2004, 12:00 |
McGwire was loved, but so was Sammy. Both used steroids IMM. Look at their before and afters too. Also notice that Canseco and McGwire started to blow up at the same time and they were best of friends on the same team. Coincidence? You decide. There have been rumors about Gagne. Don't know that it is true either, but he sure was amazing after only one winter of lifting. Can't say that he really blew up as he was always kind of big but appears to have channeled that fat into some muscle. He may be legit, but with all those other guys that are cheating, who knows. And this coming from a die-hard Dodgers fan. | ||||||
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