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Subject: Holds as a fantasy category
Posted by: JeffG
- Leader [1584348] Fri, Feb 18, 2005, 08:58
Just fishing for other opinions. I am in an office rotisserie fantasy league with the following categories: : R, HR, RBI, SB, OBP, SLG, W, SV, K, ERA WHIP
One of the competitors in my office proposed this:
How about holds as a pitching category this year? Make pitching more or less even with hitting in number of categories, and relief pitchers who aren't closers a little bit valuable. we give value to all positions except the middle relievers. Saves is primarily earned by one guy on a team but we keep that as a category.
As we know from last years MLB playoffs, the middle relievers are part of deciding the final outcome of games. Yet we give them little to no value in Fantasy Baseball. Thought that this might add another dimension to our league.
I responded
My first instinct for ‘holds’ is that I am against. I agree that 6 hitting categories vs 5 pitching seems slightly lopsided, but to me, holds is a fringe statistic. I can watch baseball all season and never hear a broadcaster say something like ‘As Rivera comes in to pitch in the ninth, Gordon is leaves the game with his league leading 36th hold tonight’. Sure this would make other relievers valuable, but I cannot even find holds on Yahoo’s player pages.
Also, to respond to your comment: “Saves is primarily earned by one guy on a team but we keep that as a category.”
Last season 23 MLB pitchers had more than 20 saves.
M Rivera 53
F Cordero 49
A Benitez 47
J Isringhausen 47
E Gagne 45
J Nathan 44
J Smoltz 44
J Mesa 43
D Graves 41
T Hoffman 41
D Kolb 39
S Chacon 35
T Percival 33
K Foulke 32
D Baez 30
B Lidge 29
B Looper 29
L Hawkins 25
M Herges 23
O Dotel 22
J Julio 22
U Urbina 21
B Wagner 21
Last season 20 MLB pitchers had more than 20 holds.
T Gordon 36
A Otsuka 34
R King 31
C Reitsma 31
S Torres 30
G Mota 29
R Cormier 28
S Linebrink 28
F Rodriguez 27
T Jones 26
M Stanton 25
J Brower 24
D Miceli 24
S Eyre 23
L Ayala 21
D Marte 21
J Mecir 21
P Quantrill 21
B Ryan 21
L Vizcaino 21
I am curious what others think, and if anyone has any experience playing in roto leagues with holds that can offer any thoughts. |
| 1 | JeffG
Leader
ID: 1584348
Fri, Feb 18, 2005, 09:01
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Other opinions from my league mates
Hmmm..interesting points.... I wouldn't necessarily mind holds as a category ..but if Yahoo doesn't offer it as a stat and/or it is difficult to find, then maybe we shouldn't do it. Plus, I think middle relievers do have an effect on Fantasy ....they can aid greatly in K's, WHIP, and ERA (K-Rod helped me out immensely in those categories last year!)
Since middle relievers tend to get more IP than closers what you get is ERA and WHIP
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| 2 | Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Fri, Feb 18, 2005, 09:03
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Holds aren't an official MLB stat (though a particular fantasy site might count them in a consistent way). I think they try to measure something that really aren;t altogether valuable. When a bunch of guys get a "hold" for the same game it doesn't seem to me to really measure much.
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| 3 | KrazyKoalaBears
Leader
ID: 517553018
Fri, Feb 18, 2005, 09:12
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No way, IMHO. As PD pointed out, Holds are not an official MLB stat. If it's not an official stat, then there's no regulation on how the stat is counted. It could lead to some arguments if one site lists a hold and another does not. Personally, I'd rather stick to what's official or what can be calculated from official stats (OPS, WHIP, etc.)
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| 4 | Stud For Hire
ID: 47153188
Fri, Feb 18, 2005, 10:22
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It's been a while since I've been on here, it's always interesting to see the holds debate start up every spring. There are obviously good arguments on both sides, but I've used holds in a my leagues for the past three seasons. We've never had a complaint, and in fact, I think people would complain if we quit using them. Even though Yahoo doesn't update it in the player profiles, once holds are added as a category you have access to everyone's totals in the ADD PLAYERS page.
btw, I've never had a problem or any complaints with Yahoo's calculation system for them.
The thing I really like about holds is they add a whole new level of strategy to the game. Like you said the number of players with 20 plus holds is very similar to the number of closers with 20 plus saves. Therefore, a stud middler reliever is now closer in value to a stud closer. Granted a good closer can chase 50 saves, where as the top middle reliever is lucky to crack 40 holds. But Middle relievers tend to have more of an effect on whip, era, and in selcet cases, strikeouts. A few years ago Octavio Dotel was as valuable as any closer in a holds league.
I've seen teams punt holds and go after saves with their relif slots, I've also seen teams punt saves and go after holds. (Which if you know your middle relievers well, is a pretty effective strategy. You can use those middle round picks on starters and hitters, because people rarely look to middle relief until the later rounds. So theoretically you should still have your pick of the bunch 5 to 6 rounds later than the "closer run"). Finally you get teams that strive for balance between holds and saves.
In the end it just adds another viable strategy to building a winning team. I'll acknowledge that holds aren't as sexy as saves, and they aren't a "recognized stat" but they serve their purpose in a fantasy league. In your case they will serve to balence out the pitching and hitting categories, while expanding your viable talent pool considerably.
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| 5 | Taxman
ID: 1211741
Fri, Feb 18, 2005, 10:53
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Gold Member used holds as a category last season and IMHO was a terrific addition (note also used were errors, balks, doubles, grounding into double plays and pick offs). I commish (with help from all the league members, especially Dr Doom and philflyboy...kind of an Iraqui democratic system) but heard no complaints about any of the categories. Top teams had highest total of saves/holds combined.
The Gold member leagues have always tried to add balancing (negative )stat counters to equalize the super stars (such as errors and grounding into double play to take some of the shine off the power studs). For coming season, would like to explore adding caught stealing but need to come up with an additional pitcher category (W, S, H, ERA. WHIP, Balks and pickoffs). Walks or Walks per 9 innings is a thought. Feed back welcomed from Gold Members as well as others. (PD has already spoken, but I don't remember any negative comments from last season....then again, I would have to be paying attention AND not suffering from more "Oldheimers" brain farts.
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| 6 | blue hen
ID: 331038201
Fri, Feb 18, 2005, 11:35
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We used holds in a league last year, and I absolutely hated it. Don't get me wrong - I led the league with late round draftees Mota, K-Rod, and F-Rod - but it was really dumb to be cheering for Mota to get taken out so Gagne could get the save and Mota the hold.
Also, if you're in a league with casual fans, they'll either do something dumb like take Tom Martin in the 5th round or they'll forget about holds altogether, ruining the competitive balance of the league.
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| 7 | Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Fri, Feb 18, 2005, 11:37
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Good points, bh. People need to remember that if holds are used in a league, then they get the same status as, say, home runs. In a ten team league, you would get the same number of points leading in holds as you would leading in dingers.
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| 8 | Perm Dude
Dude
ID: 030792616
Fri, Feb 18, 2005, 11:38
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I just wanted to add that if you do end up using holds, you should make sure to raise (or eliminate entirely) the GP limits on pitchers, as the setup guys will chew up those GP limits pretty quickly.
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| 9 | Taxman
ID: 1211741
Fri, Feb 18, 2005, 11:46
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PD Good observation...and that is the point. Adding "non-mainstearm" categories requires a more thorough analysis and balance in developing your draft board. Each category receives the same weight. That helps when ther is only one Bonds or Puljos.
I would be less excited about H in a 5X5 league, but adds a depth in a 7X7 or other league using more categories.
Often your H guy becomes the S guy. Last year I drafted Lidge and Mota for holds. Another example of the science of drafting. Better to be lucky than good!
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| 10 | JeffG
Leader
ID: 1584348
Fri, Feb 18, 2005, 13:37
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Regardardless of which categories your league has, the goal of putting together a winning fantasy baseball team is to try to pick up players who can best help your teams performance in multiple categories without hurting you in others. Whatever categories are used, it is a given that in deciding which players to draft, you are going to weight their value based on what they can do in those categories. You still have to take into account all the other variables like how deep is the position that player would be slotted, and so on. So whether you use the traditional 5x5 categories, or instead use things like holds, errors, pickoffs, or the number of times a player punches the clubhouse wall, the game is still to figure out how to best assemble an applicable roster. In this respect, merit can be given to holds or any category.
But I am not a huge fan of the hold. A stat created in 1999 according to baseball-almanac.com.
Yahoo's definition is "A hold is earned when a reliever comes into a save situation and gives way to another reliever without giving up the lead. To receive credit for a hold in Yahoo! Sports Fantasy Baseball, the pitcher must record an out."
To me, it seems too contrived. Here is an example. Yankees@Mets 7/3/2004. Look at the boxscore or the gamelog
Mike Stanton came in to pitch for the Mets in the top of the 8th with the Mets holding a one run lead. He walks the lead off hitter, the next hitter tries to sacrifice but reaches on an error, and then the next hitter lays down a sac bunt to move the runners to second and third. Stanton is then lifted and the next batter hits a sac fly to tie the game. He pitched one third of an inning, it can be argued was not really effective, but he gets the hold. (Sure he could have given up a 3 run homer).
Yes I understand that there are cheap holds, like there are cheap wins. In fact, no one else can blow your hold, where I am sometimes ready to throw something at the tv when a reliever or closer blows my pitchers win. I also understand that an argument can be made that players cannot score runs without in most cases, teammates to drive them in. But, when the season starts, and we are watching a game or tracking the stats, for fantasy purposes, we are going to look more at the events corresponding to the categories we have chosen. It seems with a hold, I'd be more likely rooting for manager moves than on field performance. (I'm sure my wife will call the asylum he first time we are wtching a game and I scream: 'Hey coach, take him out now while he still has a lead! He already recorded his out!').
I do not disagree that there is strategy involved in assembling a roster giving consideration to the hold. However, my preference would be to stick to the traditional categories.
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| 11 | Stud For Hire
ID: 121481913
Sat, Feb 19, 2005, 15:21
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Jeff, I understand your logic, but the scenerio you described is similar to closer going into a game with a 3 run lead, giving up 2 runs, and loading the bases before the batter grounds out to first. If you say that scenerio is unlikely draft a Rockies closr. My point is did he really "earn" a save? But like the hold, he came into the game, and fufilled the rules of the stat. Same has been known to happen with wins.
You'll have scenerios like that, but more often than not, you'll find a pitcher earns a hold by doing just that, holding the lead, and pitching pretty well. Guys like Romero, Gordon and other high end middle relivers earn their holds, and they should be more valuable than guy like Matt Herges or Jorge Julio. But in most Drafts last year the middle relievers I mentioned went undrafted, while two inferior pitchers went in the later rounds. All holds do is create a stat the puts middle releavers on par with closers and starters so that you don't get punished for trying to have the best pitchers available on your team.
You mentioned Stanton earlier. He actually had a respectable 3.16 ERA and a 1.34 whip for the season. So I would say he earned his other 24 holds, comparativly speaking, I'd say this would be the eqivilant of a closer with 30 saves like Danys Baez who had a 3.57 ERA and a 1.31 WHIP. If you'll notice, once you get past the handfull of dominate closers, the holds guys compare very similarly with their closer counterparts. Holds are simply the stat that somewhat accuratly reflect that value in a fantasy league...
However, I do feel holds are more value as a fantasy stat to balence pitcher values than as a real life stat. So for the purists out there or those who use fantasy to add more excitment to the games they watch, I more than understand your rationale to avoid holds as a category.
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| 12 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Mon, Feb 21, 2005, 19:44
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I like the concept of Holds as a category and we even seriously considered it when we started G20 as it would make pitchers more playable. In the end though, I decided against it as there are too many offered up during the same game where some pitchers do well and some not so well. It's not a true measure of how well the pitcher does IMO. Since WHIP and ERA already measure that, I don't think it's a valuable stat at all.
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| 13 | Bandos
ID: 531153296
Wed, Feb 23, 2005, 18:01
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Holds are too arbitrary.If you want to value middle relievers add k/9.
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| 14 | Motley Crue
ID: 421571610
Thu, Feb 24, 2005, 11:19
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I can't believe anyone uses balks as a fantasy roto stat. How many balks are there in an entire season? Maybe 30? My first instinct was to guess 10, but I'm sure you don't see them all on SportsCenter.
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