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Subject: Bonds and steroids - exposed in SI Posted by: JeffG - Leader [01584348] Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 13:16  Story NEW YORK (SI.com) -- Beginning in 1998 with injections in his buttocks of Winstrol, a powerful steroid, Barry Bonds took a wide array of performance-enhancing drugs over at least five seasons in a massive doping regimen that grew more sophisticated as the years went on, according to Game of Shadows, a book written by two San Francisco Chronicle reporters at the forefront of reporting on the BALCO steroid distribution scandal.... | |||||||
| 1 | Khahan ID: 411211610 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 13:26 |
I am so sick of the whole steroid thing. Can we have a spring training and a season without a 'major blow up?' If a player tests positives during the season fine. But please, all this shit that happened in the past...WE KNOW. Its been thrown in our faces for the past few years. I'm not saying its less important or we should forget about. But THERE ARE OTHER THINGS TO DISCUSS. Positive things. Fun things. Exciting things. And of course, they release it now with the beginning of spring training so we'll have this crap all season long, still. I was hoping maybe 2006 would be the year that roids were a background story, overshadowed by the season. Not the other way around. | ||||||
| 2 | TDM ID: 28227712 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 13:29 | As long as Bonds is chasing the HR record we will hear about steroids, and it won't be in the past until he retires and stops the chase. | ||||||
| 3 | Khahan ID: 411211610 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 13:33 |
Doesn't mean I have to enjoy having this shoved in my face every time I open a paper or log onto the net to check a box score or read about injuries/trades etc. I think this one pisses me off more because its timing and described content scream, "Lets get paid!!!" not "True scandal that needs exposed. Lets clean up the game." | ||||||
| 4 | weykool ID: 9259619 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 13:39 |
Nobody is making you read anything about roids. We all play fantasy sports but we shouldnt live in a fantasy world were whe choose to stick our heads in the sand and ignore a story like Steroids. | ||||||
| 5 | Khahan ID: 411211610 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 13:45 |
weykool, I'm not sure which portion of this sentence you chose to ignore: I'm not saying its less important or we should forget about. But I pretty obviously am not saying we should stick our heads in the sand and ignore it. These are the things I'd rather see when I log on to read about baseball (in no particular order, but all ahead of roids): WBC spring training games position battles rookies injuries injured players making a comeback If a player is busted for roids...crucify. Put him in the forefront for what he's done. But rehashing the past 2 years worth of accusations and information for the sake of profit from a book....the game does not need that. | ||||||
| 6 | Razor ID: 36241218 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 14:12 |
From the article:The authors describe how Bonds turned to steroids after the 1998 season because he was jealous of McGwire. Bonds hit 37 home runs in '98 -- a nice total and the fourth most of his career at that point -- but he was ignored by fans and the media who were captivated by McGwire's 70 home runs and his duel for the record with Sammy Sosa, who hit 66 that year. This article pretty much echoes my theory about how this all went down. I've been espousing that same McGwire-jealousy angle for years as the beginning of the Bonds' roid saga. It seems all too coincidental that 3 years after McGwire broke what everyone thought was an unbreakable record, Bonds breaks it again. Has anyone noticed that Bonds doesn't even issue denials anymore? When someone brings it up, he just blames the media or says it's none of anyone's business what ballplayers take. The guy is a disgrace. At least own up to it. | ||||||
| 7 | Tree ID: 1411442914 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 14:43 | i do agree with Khahan. quite frankly, i've got no issues with Bonds doing steroids prior to it being against the rules. | ||||||
| 8 | Larry ID: 1925714 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 15:09 |
I'm a casual fan, but do I understand from the tone of the thread that your collective opinion is that these cheats' records should stand? That Bonds and McQuire should be in the hall of fame. I'm just trying to understand the ethic here. | ||||||
| 9 | JeffG Leader ID: 01584348 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 15:21 |
Their records have to stand. There would be no way to filter out what was post-juiced and pre-juiced unless you were to just treat them as guilty with no proof. They were still within the rules back then. Technically, even now with the stringent rules against steroids in place, if someone gets caught on May 2 and serves their 50 game suspension, their stats from May 1 count. Guys like Bonds, Mac, Sosa, and Palmeiro will likely still get into the Hall. Perhaps the voters make it more difficult for them, perhaps not first ballot, but I'm sure they will eventaully be voted in. That does not mean that we have to hold these people in the same high regard that we do other record holders and other hall of famers. They are left to live with the stigma of a possible cheat, and the asterisks. | ||||||
| 10 | Tree ID: 1411442914 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 16:02 |
I'm a casual fan, but do I understand from the tone of the thread that your collective opinion is that these cheats' records should stand? how can you be a cheat if you're not cheating? if there were no rules to be broken, then they weren't do anything against the rules, then, thusly, not cheating. | ||||||
| 11 | Razor ID: 36241218 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 16:14 | That's really just a semantical argument, Tree. Was it cheating by the letter of the law? No (well, maybe, considering a memo was sent to all teams explicitly prohibiting steroid use). Was it moral fuzzy ground that Bonds and the others were walking on? Absolutely. Most of these drugs were not obtained legally and are well known to give an advantage in athletic competition. That they were not explicitly banned in baseball does not make it any less of a crime in my eyes. They have not and will not be punished by baseball, which I suppose is fair since they didn't break any baseball rules, but I think them getting crucified in the public spectacle is more than fair. Bonds, afterall, has publically denied steroid use and questioned whether they would have any improvement on a baseball player's game. At best, he is guilty of misleading the public. At worst, he is at the center of the worst baseball scandal since the Black Sox. | ||||||
| 12 | biliruben Leader ID: 589301110 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 16:22 |
The line is fuzzier than you might at first think. Is a cortizone shot in your knee "cheating?" It certainly inhances your performance. Same with dietary supplements. Pain killers. If you don't go by a banned list, where is the line drawn? | ||||||
| 13 | R9 ID: 2421073 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 16:25 |
Agreed, which is why I blame MLB far more then the players. Players of any game always try and push their edge, by whatever means are allowed. In fantasy baseball leagues people come up with tricky trades to circumvent rules, in poker we use database software to analyse our play, etc. So its up to the rule makers to decide what is acceptable, and for a decade they looked the other way. Do I question the player's ethics? A bit. Most people at the top of their field have to make similarly marginal ethical decisions however, so I don't see baseball players as any different. They certainly have to be put in the record book imho, as many others in that book did ethically borderline things to get there too. How you feel when you look at that record in the book is entirely up to you of course. | ||||||
| 14 | KrazyKoalaBears ID: 15023167 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 16:30 |
According to the book, Bonds, in comments to his mistress, Kimberly Bell Well there's a rock-solid source if I ever heard of one. ---- As for the issue of stats and records, we can't delete the records/stats of McGwire, Bonds, or anybody else who clearly used steroids. It's not an ethical issue. It's the fact that they weren't cheats any more than spitball pitchers were when the spitball was allowed. Or Ty Cobb when he went into second with his spikes up. They cheated themselves, they cheated the game, and they cheated the fans. But, they didn't cheat the rules and it's MLB fault, so now MLB must live with the results. | ||||||
| 15 | Flying Polack Sustainer ID: 378582811 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 17:14 | KKB - PD left a message for you in the baseball standings board. I think he was having a problem with his que which is causing our draft to delay. | ||||||
| 16 | Toral ID: 541029611 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 17:14 |
A lot of people didn't want to keep hearing about the Black Sox scandal either (including the WhiteSox owner). They just wanted their daily dose of baseball. Toral | ||||||
| 17 | Tree ID: 9215717 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 18:22 |
That's really just a semantical argument, Tree. not really. professional athletes have long sought competative advantages. if you've got a legal source to get that advantage, so be it. your team has better gym facilities than the other team. you have a better nutritionist. you started taking vitamins first. At worst, he is at the center of the worst baseball scandal since the Black Sox. hogwash. owners and players both crying poverty, forcing the cancellation of a World Series far surpasses players who did something that wasn't against the rules. | ||||||
| 18 | KrazyKoalaBears ID: 33252322 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 21:54 |
Imagine a cartoon with 2 guys walking down the sidewalk towards each other. John and Bob. They meet at some point and John wants Bob to move out of his way. Bob just says, "No," and stands there. John keeps telling Bob to move and Bob just keeps saying, "No." This goes on and on for a while until John is red in the face, about to explode, ranting and raving and jumping up and down and with everything that's left in him he tells Bob to move. Bob says, "No," and John explodes (literally, because it's a cartoon). To me, John is the media and Bob is Barry Bonds. It's like the more the media trys to harp on the issue, the more they look like idiots. We all know Barry Bonds did steroids. If you don't, go back and read the grand jury testimony where he admits it, though he says he didn't know they were steroids. No matter, he took steroids. So, what's really left to know? He took steroids and he lied and you can be 99% sure he's lying about not knowing he took steroids and only haven taken them in that short period of time. So again, what's really left to know? The fact that they're using his mistress as a credible source is laughable and shows how desperate they are to try to make Barry move off the sidewalk. Why not just take a deep breath and start writing stories about the impact of Barry's steroid use on the game (both from his team's perspective and the game as a whole)? Why not focus on how MLB messed up by caving into the players and not implementing a steroid policy for what seemed like forever? Why not focus on the other issues in baseball like out of control salaries and competitive balance? There are FAR more stories out there than rehashing the fact that Barry Bonds took steroids and the more the media harps on it, the more they look like that red-faced, ready-to-explode, jumping up and down cartoon just begging for Barry to say, "Okay, I did it" while Barry just sits there and smirks at them and enjoys the circus. | ||||||
| 19 | Da Bomb ID: 43359416 Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 22:09 |
while Barry just sits there and smirks at them and enjoys the circus I disagree with this statement KKB. I really do feel the media is increasingly getting to Bonds. In fact, when I first saw this story, I wondered whether he would just through his hands in the air and retire right then and there. Bonds did say last year that the "media finally got to me." Even a few weeks ago he made comments to a reporter (which he later justified) saying "I'm not playing baseball anymore after this...The game (isn't) fun anymore. I'm tired of all of the crap going on. I want to play this year out, hopefully win, and once the season is over, go home and be with my family. Maybe then everybody can just forget about me." I'm not trying to defend Bonds in any way for the things he did, but I do feel that the more and more stories that come out that deal with this issue, the more it gets to him and the closer he gets to retiring. | ||||||
| 20 | Seattle Zen ID: 3415339 Wed, Mar 08, 2006, 10:25 |
Or how about a story about the supposed "harmful" effects of steroids on an adult male body. It is painfully clear that nearly every sports writer knows nothing about steroids, I believe that is the case because the writers are lazy and not particularly bright. If you read up on the subject, it becomes clear that there have been very few studies done using healthy adult males, putting them on a steroid regiment, and monitoring their health. Much like marijuana and its health benefits, there are some conclusions the Drug Warriors don't want known. All of the scare tactics regarding steroids sound like the came from the same factory that gave us the "marijuana is a gateway drug" and "marijuana is one of the most dangerous drugs in the world". I read these stories like the one in SI and wonder why the public cares if a man takes some hormones that very well could be harmless. If Barry quadrupled his dosage, he could run for Governor. | ||||||
| 21 | ChicagoTRS ID: 150452015 Wed, Mar 08, 2006, 10:27 |
I think this new book does shed some new light on the subject...the amount and type of roids Bonds was using...why he used them...etc... Why do people think roids were not against the rules...there was clearly a memo distributed that banned all illegal substances. Obviously what Bonds was taking was illegal. | ||||||
| 22 | TDM ID: 31472215 Wed, Mar 08, 2006, 10:36 | KKB-I disagree, Bonds is the one who is looking more and more like an idiot. Bonds is going to get booed all year this year, everytime he comes to the plate he'll get booed, every time he hits a HR he'll get booed even more. The man is going to want to retire after his first road trip. I hope his knee injury flairs up for the sake of baseball. | ||||||
| 23 | Razor ID: 1477414 Wed, Mar 08, 2006, 10:51 |
Well, that's the thing about Bonds. He has such a massive ego that he actually revels in the booing thinking that it is a sign of respect. Unless he starts getting booed in San Francisco (Giants fans have stuck with him this long (much to their embarrassment) so who knows what they will do now), then I doubt he'll retire on account of hatred from the fans. Sad. Bonds is chasing the greatest record in all of sports, and he will likely be booed at every stop. That's just horrible publicity for baseball. What is Joe Nonbaseballfan going to think about baseball when he turns on CBS Evening News and hears the boo birds in the background during the clips of Bonds' chase to 755? | ||||||
| 24 | Flying Polack Sustainer ID: 378582811 Wed, Mar 08, 2006, 11:06 |
Why do people think roids were not against the rules...there was clearly a memo distributed that banned all illegal substances. Obviously what Bonds was taking was illegal. Is this similar to the memo my boss sends around forcing us to wear Hawaiian shirts on Friday's? My views are very similar to post 18 and 20. RE 22: If I get paid $20,000,000 (or whatever his salary is, I don't feel like looking it up) everyone in the world could boo me all they want. | ||||||
| 25 | KrazyKoalaBears ID: 15023167 Wed, Mar 08, 2006, 11:48 |
Da Bomb, I do feel that the more and more stories that come out that deal with this issue, the more it gets to him and the closer he gets to retiring. And yet he continues to play. He's going to retire because he's old, not because of the media. How many players play past the age of 40? 41? 42? When he retires, it'll be more because he's done with the game than because he's done with the media. ChicagoTRS, there was clearly a memo distributed that banned all illegal substances If they were banned, then why was there no testing? Why were there no suspension guidelines? Why didn't anybody in MLB get caught using? If MLB sends out a memo and says, "coming off the bench to participate in a fight is banned" and does absolutely nothing about it when it happens, is it really illegal? Or is it just MLB trying to cover their butt and say, "well, we sent out a memo?" TDM, Bonds is going to get booed all year this year, everytime he comes to the plate he'll get booed, every time he hits a HR he'll get booed even more. That's happened for a long time in Barry Bonds' career, so what else is new? And I honestly don't believe he'll get booed as much as you think. There's a part about "watching history" that will cause people to cheer. They certainly didn't boo Mark McGwire, even after he fully admitted, in the middle of his 70 HR season no less, to taking andro. So why would they boo now? Chicks love the long ball (and so do the casual fans). The man is going to want to retire after his first road trip. Far less than doubtful. Barry is used to getting booed on the road. Does anybody hate him any more than Dodgers fans? Not likely. Not even now. If he's lived with that to this point, there's no reason to think Padres fans (his first road trip) will make him want to retire. Flying Polack, If I get paid $20,000,000 (or whatever his salary is, I don't feel like looking it up) everyone in the world could boo me all they want. No lie! | ||||||
| 26 | ChicagoTRS ID: 150452015 Wed, Mar 08, 2006, 12:17 |
What amazes me more than these guys using roids is the fact people still are making excuses for them like it was ok and no big deal that these players put a stain on the history of the game. They really did unrepairable damage to the game obliterating some hallowed records... First all I heard was...there is no proof that these guys did roids...now that the proof is leaking out...now it is who cares it wasn't really cheating...not againt the rules...blah blah blah...personally I hate the fact that these players have damaged the game. Baseball more than any sport is about statistics and history and these players have damaged the statistical history of the game. It will be very interesting to see what kind of percentage McGwire gets in hall of fame voting this year...my one hope is that these proven cheaters never see the inside of the hall, even players like Bonds who deserve to be there without the roids inflation...I hope he is on the outside looking in...I do think these guys will have a long wait as most of the writers I have heard interviewed share the view point that these players are cheaters and it is inexcusable. | ||||||
| 27 | KrazyKoalaBears ID: 15023167 Wed, Mar 08, 2006, 13:06 |
What amazes me more than these guys using roids is the fact people still are making excuses for them like it was ok and no big deal that these players put a stain on the history of the game. They really did unrepairable damage to the game obliterating some hallowed records... I assume your referring to some of my statements, so let me say clearly that I'm not making excuses for the players. However, I feel that MLB did FAR more damage to the game than the players. MLB is the entity that could have done something about it, but only waited until the public outcry was so great that they HAD to do something. And even then, they instituted a weak suspension system that they upgraded only AFTER Congress got involved. Who did the greater harm to the game? Mark McGwire chasing a record while using a substance that was completely NOT banned (not even in any memos)? Or MLB using McGwire's (and Sosa's) chase as a marketing tool to improve ratings, attendance, sales, etc. while knowing full well that McGwire was taking a substance that was considered a steroid by virtually every athletic policy board in the world... except MLB? McGwire even used to wear the Andro cap during press conferences! And MLB allowed it. Personally, I think MLB has gotten off with a lot less attention than they deserve regarding this issue. Everyone's blaming the players, but the players were playing within the rules. I'm certainly not saying the players are blameless, but how is it that MLB and their "policies" are never part of these conversations? Why has there never been as many exposes about what MLB knew about the problem of steroids and, maybe more importantly, when they knew it? Why isn't Bud Selig getting the face time that Barry Bonds is getting over this matter? IMHO, Selig deserves just as much, if not more, attention over the steroid issue. | ||||||
| 28 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 428299 Wed, Mar 08, 2006, 13:26 |
IMHO, Selig deserves just as much, if not more, attention over the steroid issue. Me too, but I believe he deserves more credit than shame. Abe Lincoln was a slave owner and worked for a system that encouraged slavery for much of his political life. But that isn't what he is remembered for. Even before Congress got involved Selig had pushed this issue and it was always the Players Association who has put up the greatest roadblocks. If you need someone or something to demonize, they should be the ones at the top of your list. Comprehensive 20 page ESPN Expose | ||||||
| 29 | Toral ID: 541029611 Wed, Mar 08, 2006, 13:42 |
Abe Lincoln was a slave owner Say what? | ||||||
| 30 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 428299 Wed, Mar 08, 2006, 14:01 | He wasn't? | ||||||
| 31 | Toral ID: 541029611 Wed, Mar 08, 2006, 14:04 | Don't think so. Maybe you're thinking of Thomas Jefferson or George Washington? | ||||||
| 32 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 428299 Wed, Mar 08, 2006, 14:12 |
I suppose I just remember the he specifically not an abolutionist. At least not until after the war. Wikipedia: The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. | ||||||
| 33 | ChicagoTRS ID: 150452015 Wed, Mar 08, 2006, 14:17 |
Who says(believes) Mark McGwire was only using Andro? Seems to be enough circumstantial evidence at this point that he was using a few things a little more powerful than Andro. Personally I never had a problem with Andro as it was legal OTC and not prohibitted by baseball. It was the durabol, hgh, injectable testosterone, etc....that I have a little problem with. There is absolutely no way MM was only using Andro...Andro has been shown to be very ineffective and he would not have saw the weight/strength gains using that supplement. My comments were not directed at anyone specific on this site...have heard the same thing on sports radio etc...and I do agree that the baseball brass was as much at fault or more. | ||||||
| 34 | TDM ID: 31472215 Thu, Mar 09, 2006, 11:24 | Wikipedia for Barry Bonds | ||||||
| 35 | Ref Donor ID: 539581218 Thu, Mar 09, 2006, 11:28 | Andro is a precursor. In other words, your body metabolizes it into an anabolic steroid. But, MM definitely used steroids for a long time and why he continually was smart and didn't answer the congressman's direct questions about it. It seems that if the other dopers could have just been so smart as to avoid lying, it may have helped them a ton in the short and long run. | ||||||
| 36 | holt ID: 491122318 Fri, Mar 10, 2006, 19:22 |
SZ - if you really think that roids don't cause serious health problems then you have your head buried in the sand. I wouldn't compare roids to weed. weed is recreational. the problem with roids in baseball is that they create an unfair competitive advantage over the players that don't use them. if minor leaguers shoot up and make it to the big leagues, what options are the clean minor leaguers left with? if major leaguers shoot up and win mvp awards and huge contracts, what position does that put the clean players in? baseball needs to go after roids aggressively. stop tip-toeing around and stomp it out like a fire. | ||||||
| 37 | wolfer ID: 25155277 Wed, Mar 15, 2006, 12:58 |
For those who did not see it.. Isn't this ironic.... | ||||||
| 38 | Mark L ID: 59231714 Thu, Mar 23, 2006, 17:38 |
Don't know who's dumber, Bonds or his lawyers. I have two words for Barry: Oscar Wilde. Think about it, dude. | ||||||
| 39 | Filthy ID: 130351713 Thu, Mar 23, 2006, 18:11 |
Funny cause its true Might've been posted before but if not its a funny read. Theres also a great Todd Helton news clip on the same site thats even funnier. | ||||||
| 40 | Seattle Zen Leader ID: 055343019 Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 11:22 |
Wow, who knew Musberger had the balls to speak up on this topic. Pro athletes should be able to use steroids under a doctor's care. "Here's the truth about steroids: They work," He then goes on to say, "don't listen to journalists, they know nothing" (rather entertaining coming from a journalist). Hey, I said that four years ago in post 20. Like any good journalist, we've got to hear from the "Steroids are bad" people - Dr. Gary Wadler, the head propagandist for the World Anti-Doping Agency, goes on to make the world's weakest anti-steroids argument ever. Among the many examples of the negative effects of steroids are the cases of dozens of East German women Olympians who took the drugs in the 1960s and '70s and wound up with a variety of medical issues after their careers were over. Former NFL lineman Lyle Alzado, who died in 1992 at 43, blamed his fatal brain tumor on his persistent use of steroids. Taylor Hooton was a 17-year-old baseball player who committed suicide in 2003; doctors believe Hooton became depressed after he stopped using steroids. Well, Musberger wasn't talking about women. Two deaths, one pure speculation as to the cause, the other a teenager, the very group Brent urged not to use. Wow, Dr. Wadler, how very convincing. | ||||||
| 41 | Razor ID: 57854118 Thu, Oct 07, 2010, 11:38 |
The beauty of baseball is that it's a great game with or without steroids. As for other sports, what's the point? I know the appetite for legalizing steroids in football is going down the tubes as more horror stories about brain injuries and life expectancy crop up. | ||||||
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