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0 Subject: Leo Mazzone et al...

Posted by: Bond, James Bond
- Donor [04352469] Thu, Sep 13, 2007, 17:22

Guru pointed out some excellent thoughts on his daily blurb regarding Mr. Mazzone and I thought I'd follow it up.

Is Leo Mazzone the problem in Baltimore or is it just a simple lack of pitching talent (sans Bedard) anywhere in the organization? How much, if any, should Mazzone get the blame?

I loved Mazzone in Atlanta but I guess anybody can look smart with a roster full of future HOF's, right? I was just wondering how much a pitching coach really matters and whether or not their input is significant or not.

Thoughts?
1Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Thu, Sep 13, 2007, 17:47
Well I think he has to get some blame but the lack of pitching talent (not named Bedard) is quite apparent.

If you recall he helped a couple of pitchers who arrived in Atlanta after some miserable seasons: Jaret Wright, Russ Ortiz, and Denny Neagle. He also helped fix guys like Mike Hampton, Paul Byrd, and John Burkett.

And what happened to Kevin Millwood when he left?

I think Mazzone deserves lots of credit for the job he did in Atlanta but he must accept some blame in Baltimore. That staff is weak but he still must accept some blame.
2R9
      ID: 21721142
      Thu, Sep 13, 2007, 17:55
I still have to think highly of Mazzone. There isn't alot of talent in Baltimore. With what he has to work with, he's done wonders for Bedard. Natural progression is one thing, but Bedard's WHIP has dropped from 1.60 to 1.38 to 1.35 to 1.09 this year. That is a significant drop, and it seems a reach to attribute it all to Bedard 'figuring it all out'.

Cabrera on the other hand is obviously a real talent that he hasn't got anywhere with. But maybe Cabrera is just a headcase? Doesn't listen? I need more then 1 example to dismiss Mazzone.

Nobody else in Baltimore has much in the way of talent for anyone to harness. I laugh at the $$$ spent on those disaster bullpen arms. Not a piece of talent in the bunch outside Walker.


Mazzone in Atl: Sure, he worked with HOF talent. How much of that HOF talent is a result of Mazzone, and how much of Mazzone is a result of the HOF talents? Tough to answer. But Mazzone did turn a few mediocre talents into solid MLB role fillers, like that journeyman MR guy who cashed in with the Yankees (what was his name?) and guys like Horacio Ramirez and such. Sure he hasn't done the same in Baltimore, but look at those names: Brian Burres? Jon Leicester? Rod Bell?

IMHO Mazzone can get the most out of mediocre talent. Like everyone else though, there isn't much he can do for god-awful talent.
3blue hen
      Leader
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Sep 13, 2007, 21:02
We all look at Daniel Cabrera and expect Mazzone to straighten him out. But Guthrie and Bedard were both excellent this year, and that's a credit to Leo. And you're right about Atlanta - he did a whole lot there.

Except for Millwood - he threw a no-hitter and won an ERA title after leaving.
4Bond, James Bond
      Donor
      ID: 04352469
      Sat, Sep 15, 2007, 14:19
Good points both of you. Also, you've got to be wondering if Mazzone has given up on Baltimore since his best friend got fired by the Orioles. Seems to me Mazzone will be moving on next year. Guess he just might regret leaving Atlanta huh?
5KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 852443-4
      Fri, Oct 12, 2007, 16:43
Mazzone Fired
6mrbig
      ID: 27926139
      Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 11:30
There is alwasy the chance Cabrera is just a guy with a great arm and nothing else. There is always the chance he will never get it together, regardless of who his pitching coach is. Some guys just don't have enough control to ever be successful in the majors, regardless of a great arm or great coaching.
7clv@folks'
      ID: 1711132312
      Sat, Oct 13, 2007, 20:47
Long, detailed explanation, but many (including Smoltz) have somewhat attributed substantial amounts of Leo's success to working with more "experienced" guys in Atlanta - Smoltz' words were "guys who already understood how to pitch". Leo belongs in the HoF, but, right or wrong, most of his success has to be credited to more experienced guys...Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, Wright, Ortiz, Neagle, etc.. I've always been a Leo supporter, but it's hard to argue that he's always struggled with younger guys - given the success they enjoyed "on their way up the ladder", Mazzone certainly didn't do much for guys like Davies, James, Ramirez, Capellan, Meyer, Schmidt, and so on once he got to work with them. To be completely honest, much of the credit with Braves' pitching over the years should be shared with the minor league coaches who handed him plenty of talent.
8filthy
      ID: 186293016
      Sun, Oct 14x, 2007, 02:42
I would think that Mazzone has to get a bit of the credit for Erik Bedard, as well as Jeremy Guthrie. Would've liked to see what he could do with Loewen.

The Orioles are being too snappy with this one, they can't expect him to turn everything into gold. Look at their team pitching stats on the season, the list is filled with mostly nobodies. Way to pitch in zero games, Kris Benson. Better than the 3 losses in 3 starts from Jaret Wright at least.

Stocking up with some still young, but missed prospects would have been a smart thing to do. Or at least loading up on arms in the draft. But signing expensive veteran middle relief and over the hill, injury prone, back of the rotation guys was definitely not the smart thing to do.
9Hydra
      ID: 29050166
      Tue, Jan 20, 2009, 15:52
Read recently that Mazzone regretted going to Baltimore and said he knew in spring training that he had made a mistake.

Mazzone wishes he never left the Braves

Anybody surprised by his admission? Frankly, I thought he and Bobby Cox worked quite well together and I certainly wish he was still with Atlanta.
10blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Jan 21, 2009, 10:21
Interesting. I'd been wondering about this for a while. I'm pretty torn on Mazzone, and Bedard/Guthrie notwithstanding, I'm surprised he didn't have more success in Baltimore.
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