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Subject: Torre to Dodgers?
Posted by: Ref
- Donor [539581218] Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 01:28
Not a ery well-kept secret that LA was unhappy with the way things ended up and Little is likely to go--even with a yea rleft on his deal. I was hoping it would be Girardi and apparently it would have been if he didn't go with the Yanks. But now it seems to be a movement to get Torre.
In fact, several papers will be running the Torre story on Tuesday--even though it's premature. My thought is that it will happen. I don't know how good Torre really is, but maybe he can command the respect in the clubhouse or whatever is missing to get the job done. Mattingly's son is in the Dodgers organization so it's a no-brainer that he'd come too. Who else will follow? ARod? |
| 1 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 07:31
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The tabloids here played up the idea of a strong rift between ARod and Torre. I never got a good feel for how valid it was.
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| 2 | Razor
ID: 136523110
Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 08:33
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Torre is obviously one of the best managers in the game as far as relating to players. In the NL, though, that's not enough as you have to do a lot more than simply fill out a lineup card and bring in relievers whenever you like. Grady Little was fine in his first year with the Dodgers, but he flat out stunk this year. He stuck with terrible veterans way too long and proved without a shadow of doubt that he was way in over his head in the NL, where he seemingly made NL-style managerial moves at random and ridiculous times (e.g. sacrificing at the top of the order in the 2nd inning.). I can't say I have followed the Yankees very closely but given Torre's history in the NL, I am not sure he is a good fit for the club. Really, Girardi was the perfect manager as he has proven that he is a great manager for young stars and manages with fire. Torre seems like a veterans' favorite, and I don't think I've ever seen the guy get fired up. I am unenthused. Winning four championships in a completely different situation can't make me excited about the guy. If he comes in and sends Pierre to the bottom of the order or the bench and plays all the young kids, then he'll earn my trust.
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| 3 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 09:40
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He picks guys the he trusts in certain spots and then lives or dies with them. Its usually encouraging to see him stick with guys like Cano through extended slumps but we were begging him to put Damon and Giambi on the shelf for weeks, which he eventually did (long after most fans had been calling for it).
He also kills his bulpen that way, which was the reason the front office felt the need to install the 'Joba rules'. Maybe the Dodgers' pen is strong enough that he wouldn't lean so heavily on one guy like he did Proctor the past few years or stick with an underperforming setup guy like he did with Farnsworth for all of 2006 and well into 2007.
I know it wasn't an issue back when he could go to Stanton and Nelson with equal confidence. Hopefully he'd use Proctor and Broxton similarly, though they are both righties.
Torre would not be a big fan of Juan Pierre leading off. He values OBP over speed at the top of the lineup. On an AL team managed by Torre, I think Pierre would be a good candidate to hit 9th. But with a pitcher hitting there I'm not sure how he'd work it out.
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| 4 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 09:53
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Also, he isn't firey. But he has no problem whatsoever keeping his players motivated. With only a very few exceptions, all of his players would drive over a cliff for him.
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| 5 | blue hen
ID: 16322314
Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 09:57
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Yeah, Torre has been fine with a deep bullpen. But when the options are a little shallower, he leans on one good arm at a time, whether it's Proctor, Bruney, Vizcaino - whoever is hot.
Right now, the Dodgers bullpen is pretty deep. But they are getting older, and even Broxton had a few hiccups this year. I think Torre can be decent here.
I actually Torre might do well with the interplay of the young guys. While he might trot out the grizzled lineup too often, he'll find ways to get the young guys PT early and often. There's plenty of talent on the team, and that's what's important.
But Razor is right - he needs to come in and do something significant, and quickly.
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| 6 | Razor
ID: 136523110
Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 10:28
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Seems like Torre to LA is a done deal. Honestly, I think he's too similar to Little to make a huge difference. Of course, the one thing that Little did well, being a manager that players liked and respected, he had lost, so at least Torre has that going for him. Managing the pen and playing the kids are the two keys for him.
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| 7 | angryChair
ID: 100501014
Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 16:05
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I appreciate Torre's mellow approach to the game. He is a true
Professor" of the sport---he studies it closely---but still goes
with his "gut" feeling.
Besides Torre---LAD desperately needs some big bats in their
lineup. They have an incredibly talented young catcher that the
team should be molded around. THey need to hire Torre and go
after a big bat (ARod?)-----Offer some trades up---LAD NEED a
BIG bat or two or they will tank next year again. Torre "might"
be the guy who could get those trade talks moving....??
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| 8 | GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 060151121
Tue, Oct 30, 2007, 22:03
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Local news this evening, Little has resigned.
Sure opens this one up.
Cliff
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| 9 | Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Thu, Nov 01, 2007, 18:42
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Torre hired by the Dodgers
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| 10 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Thu, Nov 01, 2007, 18:52
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Here's to wishing the best for Joe. I hope it won't be long before the Yankes are inviting Joe to his number retirement ceremony.
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| 11 | angryChair
ID: 459171622
Sat, Nov 03, 2007, 15:36
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MITH writes: I hope it won't be long before the Yankes are inviting
Joe to his number retirement ceremony.
Yes, without question!!!!!!!!!
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| 12 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sat, Nov 03, 2007, 18:56
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So will MITH follow his namesake (and his son) to the Dodgers or will he stay with the Yanks? ;)
MITH, there's PLENTY of room on the DOdgers bandwagon, and when I say plenty, I MEAN PLENTY!!! ;)
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| 13 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Mon, Nov 05, 2007, 08:20
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I don't think you'll be able to call me a fan but I'll certainly be rooting for the Dodgers to succeed under Torre (and DM if he follows Joe).
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| 14 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Mon, Nov 05, 2007, 09:27
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MITH - what if DM takes over in a few years and has a nice 20 year run with the Dodgers, wins championships and gets to the HOF (since that would give him the final push over the top).
1. Do you change your handle?
2. Does he wear a Yankee or Dodger hat?
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| 15 | blue hen
ID: 16322314
Mon, Nov 05, 2007, 16:40
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I think he should be allowed to keep "Mattinglyinthehall" since it will then be true.
If Mattingly does enough with the Dodgers, to get into the Hall as a manager, then this will be fairly obvious - Dodgers.
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| 16 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Mon, Nov 05, 2007, 18:53
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1. Well, I have at least enough time for DM to have a HOF managerial career + 5 years to think it over.
2. Aren't there seperate inductions for managers and players? Whichever, if he's inducted as a great Dodger manager, then Dodger Blue it is.
Here's an easy prediction: DM will be Yankee manager in the next 10 years.
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| 17 | Rendle
Donor
ID: 014815714
Tue, Nov 06, 2007, 08:25
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Anyone see that Sportscenter segment with Steve Phillips where he says all the Dodgers have to do is acquire Santana and Miguel Cabrera/Arod and they'll be in the World Series? What kind of analysis is that?
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| 18 | Razor
ID: 136523110
Tue, Nov 06, 2007, 11:09
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We should have saved everyone the time and trouble and gotten Girardi now and given the Yankees Mattingly.
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| 19 | biliruben
ID: 579411512
Wed, Nov 07, 2007, 11:48
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I am not at all sorry to see Little go, and I'm sure Torre will be an upgrade. How much of an upgrade isn't clear. When you have that team, it hard to discern how much is coaching and how much is money and talent.
I'd much rather have Cashman replacing Colletti, however.
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| 20 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Wed, Nov 07, 2007, 11:52
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How good is Cashman? I mean a lot of GMs would be better if they had unlimited funding...and yet he still isn't winning enough.
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| 21 | biliruben
ID: 579411512
Wed, Nov 07, 2007, 12:08
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I just don't like Colletti, and I've respected many the moves Cashman has made, particularly early in his tenure.
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| 22 | Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Wed, Nov 07, 2007, 18:35
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re 20: Cashman most certainly does not have "unlimited funding."
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| 23 | Great One
ID: 201155199
Wed, Nov 07, 2007, 22:00
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He's done pretty well fixing the farm system too the last 4-5 years.
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| 24 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 15:20
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[22] Many teams would consider the Yanks to have unlimited funding whether that is true or not. Compared to the Marlins for instance, The Yanks payroll is essentially unlimited.
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| 25 | Razor
ID: 136523110
Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 16:13
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$200 million is pretty close to unlimited.
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| 26 | Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 16:29
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Cashman is getting his chance now, as with George falling further and further into the background, there should be fewer and fewer tirade-indused free agent signings (i.e. Giambi) and much more of a balance of selective signings, trades and home grown player development - a la the mid-1990's glory days.
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| 27 | blue hen
ID: 16322314
Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 17:00
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Cashman is winning plenty. His teams have made the playoffs for 12 straight years, right?
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| 28 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 17:03
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If the Yankees' roster payroll funding was unlimited, they would have signed Dice-K before the 2007 season. Carlos Beltran and Tim Hudson before 2005. Bartolo Colon and possibly Vlad Guerrero and Kaz Matsui or Luis Castillo before 2004.
Instead they signed players like Jaret Wright and Al Leiter and Tony Womack and went with a broken down Bernie in the last year of his contract and traded for players like Randy Johnson and Kevin Brown.
Don't take this as crying for charity of course. That's an ugly list for a team of any level resources. On Cashman, he's extremely difficult to judge in my opinion. Its often very hard get a feel for which of the acquisitions came straight from him and how many were influenced or or made outside of his office.
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| 29 | blue hen
ID: 16322314
Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 17:53
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I personally thought both Brown and Johnson would win 25 games in their first Yankee years. Johnson did win 17.
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| 30 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 18:02
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I didn't bother to add Kenny Lofton, Jon Leiber and a good number of others. I also got sidetracked in heading off a kneejerk-response charge of self pity.
Whatever the record or outlooks of those players, my point was that there are many cases during Cashman's tenure where the Yankees could obviously have gone out and gotten better talent than they did if they really had unlimited resources.
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| 31 | Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Thu, Nov 08, 2007, 20:28
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MITH is correct. To say the Yankees have an unlimited payroll is simply wrong. That's not to say it's not up there, but if it was unlimited Arod would be a Yankee again, as well as the other examples used by MITH. As a side note, the Yanks actually cut payroll this past season.
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| 32 | Razor
ID: 136523110
Fri, Nov 09, 2007, 11:28
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Are you really using Kevin Brown and Randy Johnson as examples? Both of them were making more per year than Colon and Hudson.
The Yankees have the highest paid 1B, SS, 3B, RP, and SP in Major League Baseball. They own the top 4 overall salaries. 12 of the top 60 highest salaries in baseball belong to Yankees. There are only 25 spots on a roster and at least 10 of those are bench players (5 relievers, 5 position players).
Yes, in a literal sense, the Yankees' payroll is not unlimited, but for most intents and purposes, it is. A-Rod would be a Yankee if he didn't dislike playing there. The Yankees offered more money than he will get elsewhere.
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| 33 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Fri, Nov 09, 2007, 12:04
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Kevin Brown and Randy Johnson as examples? Both of them were making more per year than Colon and Hudson.
I was wrong to include Hudson, who was traded to the Braves and then signed a contract extension before he became a free agent. Anyway, the yearly salary is not more important than the total committed expenditure, especially for a team with so many top tier long term contracts on the books. The Yankees committed about $31.5m each to Brown and Johnson, both for two years.
The Angels committed $51m to Colon for 4 years. I suspect for the Yankees would have had to shell out over $60m (possibly well over) to pry him away from California.
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| 34 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Fri, Nov 09, 2007, 12:17
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A-Rod would be a Yankee if he didn't dislike playing there. The Yankees offered more money than he will get elsewhere.
I don't think you can say this for sure at all. And I definitely don't think Arod believes he'll get less on the market than the Yankees extension offer would have been. If greed isn't his primary motivator in opting out I think it's still a major part.
And if you're right about the market for him, I believe the Yankees wouldn't have to trump the biggest offer on the table by all that much to land him as a free agent, since at that point I think he'd likely be just as frustrated by the market as he disliked playing in NYC.
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| 35 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Sat, Nov 10, 2007, 23:47
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The term "unlimited" was basiclaly for comparitive purposes with other teams.
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