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0 Subject: Mitchell Report

Posted by: ChicagoTRS
- [4110481415] Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 10:24

Released today at 2pm ET...

Rumor is the Rocket will be one of the prominent names. What does this do to his legacy?
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221Philsphan
      Donor
      ID: 301442416
      Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 16:54
213-215

I agree that McNamee's testimony is very relevant. And I keep coming back to Pettitte and Knoblauch too as the ties that may ultimately bind everything. But what caught me first was the perception that the republicans were out of line and embarassing. Well, maybe they were, but they at least brought up this fact about McNamee's earlier contradictions, and that was what I was referring to originally.

Clemens may well be guilty. The fact that he has copped to the syringes and gauze pads and needles being in McNamee's posession, plus the Pettitte factor is not good.

But is Roger Clemens stupid enough to put himself out there as the Second Coming of Rafael Palmeiro?
222Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:01
is Roger Clemens stupid enough to put himself out there as the Second Coming of Rafael Palmeiro?

From my perspective he's wagering the risk of a federal perjury charge against the threat to his reputation. If he invokes 5th through this process he comes out stinking like a juiced rat, anyway.
223Perm Dude
      ID: 25139138
      Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:05
Pride, particularly among athletes, is a very powerful thing. Yes, I think Clemens might very well deny the use of HGH through a perjury charge.
224Philsphan
      Donor
      ID: 301442416
      Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:12
And that's kind of my point. I think he's risking even more than that.

So he doesn't invoke the 5th, and takes the diametrically opposed stance of his accuser. He is risking a lot more than the HOF here imo.
225Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:13
I agree with MITH on this. He's gambling that even if he's caught lying that Justice can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Also feels that his fame will help him as obvious by his campaigning to primarily Republican Congressmen.

I am shocked by what some of these Republican's said and did to McNamee, but like Waxler said, some of it was brought on himself. As bad as Burton was, he did bring up good points in that McNamee had lied before the Mitchell investigation began. But I think that goes to show you that he was a reluctant witness to bad-mouth Clemens until faced with the ultimate penalties if he told a lie.

I also agree with Souder, like Burton, a congressman from Indiana. I didn't catch his party, but he said after the hearings that the legal process often uses drug-dealers or other bad guys to get to the truth of a situation and that he beleives McNamee. I didn't catch one Congressman who didn't believe Pettitte and Pettitte was very specific in saying that Clemens discussed using these drugs with him.
226Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:35
He is risking a lot more than the HOF here imo.

Agreed, the risk is high (a perjury conviction) but I'm not sure how likely it is. I think there was a very strong case that Raphael Palmeiro had perjured himself but the committee didn't refer the case to the DOJ and the DOJ didn't act on their own to take it up.

So there's the question of whether he'd be charged at all and then of course a prosecutor has to actually win the case. Whatever Clemens thinks the chances are, apparently to him the odds are worth it.

It's the HOF, it's his reputation and as PD points out, it's a whole lotta stupid pride.

And on the topic of stupidity, was anyone else really surprised at how poorly spoken Clemens is? I guess I shouldn't be surprised that some career jock isn't very articulate, but for whatever reason I was taken aback. I guess it's a lot easier to not sound like a dumbass in a 90 second postgame interview than it is before a Congressional hearing.

Or is 'misremember' official Texas vernacular?
227Balrog
      Dude
      ID: 02856618
      Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:47
Did anybody else crack up when that one Congresswoman started her spiel by saying how they had more important things to do like cutting government waste, then she pulls out a giant poster with pictures of Clemens through the ages that supposedly exonerate him. I bet she did that on her own time with her own money.
228Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:51
Steroids by themselves do not create size. I think a lot of people think if you take thos substances your muscles will just grow.
229chode
      ID: 293141514
      Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:53
Misremember is a word.

You might look up haughtiness too before trying the "Texas vernacular" card again.
230Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:55
She presented the poster with a long intro about his training regimine so I think the idea is that a workout nut would surely develop notable muscle mass with HGH use.

But of course as a pitcher, Clemens doesn't likely spend his time in the gym powerlifting.
231Perm Dude
      ID: 25139138
      Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 17:58
That's funny, Balrog. I doubt she even realized the irony!

I ran across this blog entry earlier today as well.
232Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 18:01
Well I stand corrected! Perhaps I once knew it was a word and just misremembered it.
233Great One
      ID: 19057139
      Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 18:12
I looked up misremembered myself... I was unaware it was a real word lol.
234Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 18:32
For the record, my 'Texas vernacular card' was not played against the State of Texas. It was a reference to President Bush, whom I believe I've frequently heard use the word.
235Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 19:18
What a sad state of affairs. I'd like to believe Clemens, and an innocent man would do pretty much all that Clemens is doing - denying, fighting to save his name, etc. But I just don't believe him. McNamee might be a slimeball, a "drug dealer", a liar, etc but there's just no reason for him to correctly implicate Pettitte and Knoblauch but fabricate a case against Clemens.

The point of an elite athlete's pride standing in the way of reasonable judgment is something becoming crystal clear here. First with Bonds, and now with Clemens (and going back to Pete Rose), even in the face of horribly damning evidence, they will fight to the death to try to keep their pride. One article compared these guys' continued denials to Pete Rose, who (it seemed) with every denial only convinced himself even more that his denials were factual when in fact they weren't.

Under the assumption Clemens is lying, and assuming he told his lawyers this (and that's not exactly a wise assumption), he sure is getting crappy advise. Under my assumptions, you have to figure those lawyers helped convince Clemens to fight based upon their confidence in being able to discredit McNamee and that a denial without more credible physical evidence could stick. I guess Roger forgot to tell him about that convo with Andy.
236Balrog
      Dude
      ID: 02856618
      Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 19:26
Also in the crappy advise category: claiming that he couldn't have been at Canseco's house over a three day period and presenting as proof a receipt from the golf course next to Canseco's house. How could he have possibly driven next door in less than three days?
237Building 7
      ID: 48033121
      Wed, Feb 13, 2008, 20:42
$50 trillion in debt, immigration problems, a war in Iraq, a war in Afghanistan, Social Security funding problems, Medicare funding problems, a war on terror, infrastructure problems,dollar going down the toilet, sub-prime mess, and today in Congress:

Davis: "Mr. Clemens, do you recall bleeding through your pants in 2001?"

Clemens: "I do not."

238Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 11:03
Marion Jones did the same thing. I've NEVER taken steroids. I swear! Only to later admit it.
239mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 12:29
I just recently finished reading "Game of Shadows"

After reading that I don't believe anyone.
240clv
      Sustainer
      ID: 5911351713
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 13:26
"$50 trillion in debt, immigration problems, a war in Iraq, a war in Afghanistan, Social Security funding problems, Medicare funding problems, a war on terror, infrastructure problems,dollar going down the toilet, sub-prime mess, and today in Congress:

Davis: 'Mr. Clemens, do you recall bleeding through your pants in 2001?'

Clemens: 'I do not.'"



The beauty of today is the most important testimony can now be heard...

Davis: "Mr. clv, considering yesterday's testimony, mudslinging, and hullaballoo, what do you make of all this?"

clv: "Mr. Congressman, I absolutely couldn't give a !@#$...PITCHERS AND CATCHERS HAVE REPORTED!!!"

;-D
241JeffG
      Leader
      ID: 01584348
      Thu, Feb 14, 2008, 23:02
Interesting comment by SI's Jon Heyman on WFAN's Mike and the Mad Dog which I am watching the replay now on YES. The fact that all the GOP congressman were in Clemens' corner, and the fact that Clemens even mentioned the encouragement he received from former President Bush, he is saying that it would not surprise anyone if that is a sign that the current President Bush will pardon Clemens from any perjury charges if any arise.
242Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 11:00
Looks like Congress has proof of at least one lie by Clemens already. Clemens has stated under oath that he didn't know that he would be in the Mitchell Report until it came out. Congress can show that he knew about it beforehand.

Story.
243Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 11:09
ESPN2 is reporting that Clemens' attorney thinks that his client will get a Presedential Pardon. Interesting. Are you now admitting that Clemens is lying? I mean, why else would he need a pardon?
244Flying Polack
      Sustainer
      ID: 378582811
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 11:38
Ref: Wasn't it McNamee's attorney that mentioned the Presidential Pardon?

I don't really see how they could be confident of a pardon, do they really think the legal process will play out before January 2009?
245Perm Dude
      ID: 10136157
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 11:54
There doesn't have to be any play out to get a pardon.
246Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 11:56
FP, that would make more sense. Was working when I heard it so maybe I misheard it. Thought they said Clemens though.
247Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 12:08
ESPN2 now has a crawl where hardin (Clemens' attorney) is going after Rep. Waxman saying he created this circus.

I read a good article on ESPN yesterday talking about how everyone else in this mess had taken responsiblity of their own actions except Clemens. He always had an excuse and someone else to blame. The attorneys are the same way. Hardin has been trying to strike first in every issue--taking the offensive. Why?!?! IMM it's because he's trying to take the attention away from the guilt and smoking gun. It's like an illusionist. Watch this hand, while I do something else with my other hand.
248Perm Dude
      ID: 10136157
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 12:23
Yeah, I think you're right, Ref.
249Toral
      ID: 575542418
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 12:23
The issue of Clemens' HOF chances now gets kind of anything. I think the odds are that Clemens is never charged with perjury, and gets no MLB discipline. However, 90% of fans regard him as a cheater, serial liar and persecutor.

So...what happens on HoF ballot day? Does he still get in first ballot, do the voters slap his hand by making him wait a year or two before he gets in, or is he SOL forever? It only takes 26% of voters to say "No way, Roger" for him to be out for life. However a lot of voters will take the positions "No absolute proof", "Everybody did it" and "Still would have made it without the illegal stuff".

I think there's a good chance that Clemens' vote totals hang within the 40%-60% area for decades.

Toral
250Perm Dude
      ID: 10136157
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 12:29
BTW, I think part of Clemens' problem in the hearing is that he had no idea that what he said would be attacked the way he was. Partly because he is a pitcher who is used to being the attacker, but also the whole political process thrives on such public bloodletting. He was constantly saying things like "helping you guys out" and "came here to clear the air" but he didn't realize that those words mean nothing to the committee (and certainly didn't have the impact Clemens thought it would). For them he was there because he was compelled to be there--nothing more and nothing less.

They treated Clemens as a hostile witness, and neither he, nor his lawyers, ever saw it coming.
251Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 12:46
My boss thinks that any HOF worthy candidates that are shown to have used steroids - Bonds and Clemens, so far, will not be elected by the writers, but some day will be voted in by the Veterans' Committee because some day that committee will be comprised mainly with players from this so-called "Steroid Era".

Sounds plausible.
252Great One
      ID: 27154129
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 13:19
Gregg Zaun denied buying steroids from Kirk Radomski in 2001, saying that his $500 check that landed in Radomski's hands went through Jason Grimsley.

Zaun said he owed his then Royals teammate Grimsley $500 and wrote him a check without filling in the name of the recipient. Grimsley then made the check payable to Radomski and used it to purchase steroids for himself, Zaun says. Backing Zaun up is that the handwriting on the check appears to match Grimsley's from the multiple checks signed by Grimsley included in the Mitchell Report. Zaun wasn't sure why he owed Grimsley money, but a source told the National Post it was from losses on a basketball bet and Zaun didn't deny that possibility. Feb. 15 - 12:10 pm et
253ChicagoTRS
      ID: 4110481415
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 13:25
I relate Clemens hall of fame chances to McGwire...Mac never really admitted guilt...he was made the fool in front of Congress...if anything there is more hard proof that Clemens was a steroid user. I expect Clemens hall of fame vote will likely be in the same 25% range as McGwire.
254Flying Polack
      Sustainer
      ID: 378582811
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 14:09
It sure will be interesting if Bonds and Clemens are both on the 2013 ballot together for the first time.

I imagine another 5 years will give us a whole different level of perspective on the era. I expect they'll both end up in the HOF.

255Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 14:37
I agree with one of Toral's scenarios after Clemens is caught or beleived to have used steroids. I think inevitably Clemens will say even if you think I did it, the whole era is filled with many guys who did it. If you're going to elect anyone from that era, than I should be included.

Albeit, Clemens dug himself a big hole when he said in his press conference (paraphrasing), to hell with the HOF, it's not about that, don't vote for me. I don't care. I think this crusade is MAINLY about that. He wants in and he wants to be considered one of the greatest pitchers of all-time.

It really is a pride thing. It is so hard to swallow our pride at times, but many people learn to do it as they get older. But some people are so used to getting their way they think they can always get out of whatever predicament they are in and still not have to admit responsibility.

As a fellow human and sinner, I think it would be easier if he admitted responsibility--like Pettitte and seemingly everyone else in the Mitchell Report--instead of continuing this charade (assuming he is in fact lying). I could probably be swayed at some point to allow him in down the line or with the veterans committee, etc. It's hard to un-ring the bell a la Rose, Jones, etc. McGwire also lied for awhile saying he only ever used Andro, but he wasn't stupid enough to do it under oath and risk his freedom. Now he's backed himself into a corner. Clemens is literally going all-in on a bluff and I've got a strong feeling that Justice is going to call that bluff.
256Building 7
      ID: 471052128
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 15:04
They told Rose all he had to do was tell the truth and say he's sorry and he would get in the HOF. So he did that, and it didn't happen. Perhaps Clemens is aware of that. Also, the McGwire HOF vote is informative. Had Clemens not testified before the Congressional Blubberers, he would have received a Mcgwire-like 25% HOF vote. He probably thought it would be worth it to testify since he had nothing to lose HOF-wise.
257Perm Dude
      ID: 10136157
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 15:07
Rose never told the truth--he merely continued to leach it out as time has gone on. He continued to lie about what he did at the time, and he was penalized accordingly. And he was never promised a place on the HOF ballot. That was always Rose's hope, but is was never promised to him.
258Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 15:14
[256] Agree 100%.
259ChicagoTRS
      ID: 4110481415
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 16:34
With Clemens I believe he is a desperate man and he has enough ego to think that he can explain this all away. Once he took the route of complete denial...lies beget lies. Personally I think he would have been far better off choosing the Pettitte route and coming clean immediately. I think the problem Clemens has is he was probably a heavy user...it was not just to recover from an injury or just a small experiment. He was likely a regular user for nearly ten years.
260Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Fri, Feb 15, 2008, 16:40
This story just keeps getting better...

Reps Waxman (D) and Davis (R) made a combined statement that they agreed to call off Wednesday's hearings as they felt they had enough with the depositions but Clemens' attorneys demanded the hearings to go on as scheduled.

Clemens' attorneys deny that is the case and said Waxman started this circus several weeks ago and Clemens' attorneys wanted it called off.

So now the Congressman are lying? This Mike and Mike "Just Shut Up" award will be a tough one between Clemens and his attorneys (esp. Hardin).
261KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 421148121
      Sat, Feb 16, 2008, 11:52
[256] There's a bit more to Rose's story than that because Rose only made his admission in a biographical book, meaning he was directly profiting from his "I'm sorry." Not exactly humble or just telling the simple truth, is it?

Further, I recall part of the supposed agreement for reinstatement was that Rose had to admit he bet on Cincinnati Reds games. He has never admitted to that, despite overwhelming evidence in the Dowd Report (page 196+).

My point is that these kinds of players/people like to pick and choose what to admit to and/or what rules to follow and then say, "See, I did everything they asked for and they're still persecuting me." And, to the general public, their case is solid. But, the fact remains that they're still just doing what benefits them the most.

-----

As for Clemens, yet another Mitchell Report player seems to indicate he's guilty of what's contained in the report. Though never fully admitting to what was reported, this is certainly a Giambi-like apology.

Anybody keeping a count of how many players are left before Clemens is the Last Player Standing?
262Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Mon, Feb 18, 2008, 23:57
LoDuca admitted it. I am not sure who is left. The only ones to be named from Balco or Mitchell Report to deny it to my knowledge are Bonds and Clemens.
263clv
      Sustainer
      ID: 5911351713
      Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 12:40
Really like Heyman's take on SI.com today...

"The Wronged Man"
264Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 14:34
If anyone had these two guys pegged, believe it or not, it was McNamee. Pettitte's deposition revealed that McNamee advised Pettitte against taking HGH because he wasn't sure Pettitte could live with himself if he did. And he does appear to be paying now.

As for Clemens, McNamee kept those used and bloody syringes and gauze pads. Because he just knew that push comes to shove, Clemens would try to shove anyone in his way.
265Frick
      ID: 23117516
      Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 14:40
I admire Pettite for admitting that he was sorry for taking HGH. But while all of the players that are sorry for taking HGH, I haven't seen any of them taking any real action. Why not donate part of that $15M annual salary that was drastically increased by your PED's to a charity that will try and keep kids from PEDs.

The current lesson that will be learned is that PEDs help you make a bunch of money and then you say you are sorry. For a potential $20M payday I wish I could do that.
266Toral
      ID: 575542418
      Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 14:48
Frick:
I admire Pettite for admitting that he was sorry for taking HGH.

Do you believe that he is genuinely sorry for taking HGH in the sense that, placed back in the same position, he wouldn't have done so?

Toral
267mjd
      Leader
      ID: 501381415
      Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 15:36
Pettite seemed contrite, but I think some of these guys are only sorry that they got caught.

There's way too much money involved for players to stop doing this stuff.

What's $20K to pay your personal chemist to create an undetectable designer steroid when there's millions of dollars in contracts at stake?
268clv
      Sustainer
      ID: 5911351713
      Tue, Feb 19, 2008, 15:40
"Do you believe that he is genuinely sorry for taking HGH in the sense that, placed back in the same position, he wouldn't have done so?"


It's going to be the same old song from everyone who admits to having done them...

"I only tried them a couple times. I was injured and the team needed me, so I did not only what I had to, but the same thing everyone else was doing to get back out there and help my team win. I didn't do it for me, I did it for my teammates and the fans."

Same useless drivel Clemens has been spouting while DENYING his use. No one's going to give the money back. Difference is, Pettitte is the ONLY one I've heard open his mouth that I think is truly sorry. You don't expect anyone to be the one to start it, but if the fans put enough pressure on management and the Players' Association to get it started, I'd be willing to bet that Pettitte turns into one of the biggest contributors.
269RecycledSpinalFluid
      Dude
      ID: 204401122
      Fri, Feb 22, 2008, 17:36
Difficult to call this hard-evidence, but if you are going to lie, be sure there are no shots of you in your Bruno Maglis.
270Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 11:06
Re post 226 and the liklihood that the committe will refer a possible case or perjury to the DOJ:
The House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform on Wednesday asked the Department of Justice to investigate whether Clemens lied under oath to Congress in its probe into the use of performance-enhancing substances in baseball.
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