0 |
Subject: Piazza retires
Posted by: blue hen
- [30311814] Tue, May 20, 2008, 15:37
Is he a Hall of Famer? Discuss. |
1 | Mattinglyinthehall Dude
ID: 01629107 Tue, May 20, 2008, 15:41
|
First ballot.
|
2 | JeffG Leader
ID: 01584348 Tue, May 20, 2008, 15:56
|
No doubt he is a HOFer.
Will we see Piazza and Clemens in the same HOF class? Yikes!
HOF credentials - Piazza certainly was part Mets resurgence. His offensive numbers put him among the all time great catchers and certainly alone in terms of the best hitting catchers of his era.
|
3 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Tue, May 20, 2008, 16:02
|
First ballot no questions asked.
|
4 | Perm Dude
ID: 27433209 Tue, May 20, 2008, 16:03
|
Yup. One of the greatest hitting catchers ever. Too bad he never got a ring, but it wasn't for lack of trying.
|
5 | Toral
ID: 575542418 Tue, May 20, 2008, 16:08
|
The question isn't whether he is a HOFer but whether he is the best C of all time, despite his defensive liabilities.
Bench and Gibson are the real competition I guess.
Toral
|
6 | Mattinglyinthehall Dude
ID: 01629107 Tue, May 20, 2008, 16:12
|
alone in terms of the best hitting catchers of his era
One of the greatest hitting catchers ever.
C'mon guys - the. best. hitting. catcher. in. history.
Berra, Carter and Fisk (and anyone else you dig up) are not even close.
|
7 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Tue, May 20, 2008, 16:16
|
MITH is spot on. There is no debate. He is the greatest hitting catcher ever.
Is he the best catcher ever? That really is a debate and there is no right answer.
|
8 | Tree
ID: 3533298 Tue, May 20, 2008, 16:21
|
Will we see Piazza and Clemens in the same HOF class? Yikes!
at this point, i wonder if we'll see Clemens in ANY HOF Class.
|
9 | KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 354302015 Tue, May 20, 2008, 16:31
|
Food for thought...
Yrs Gm HR RBI AVG OBP SLG DSB* DCS* AS* A 17 2158 389 1376 .267 .342 .476 610 469 14 B 19 2120 358 1430 .285 .348 .482 154 141 18 C 16 1912 427 1335 .308 .377 .545 1400 423 12 D 24 2499 376 1330 .269 .341 .457 1302 664 11 E 19 2296 324 1225 .262 .335 .439 1498 810 11 F 18 2143 407 1333 .295 .380 .540 0 0 8 G 21 2360 475 1540 .282 .360 .529 0 0 7
* DSB: Defensive SB * DCS: Defensive CS * AS: All-Star Selections
So, after you give it a good guess as to who's who, check the answers...
A: Johnny Bench B: Yogi Berra C: Mike Piazza D: Carlton Fisk E: Gary Carter F: Duke Snider G: Willie Stargell
All but Piazza are currently HoFers and I see no reason to leave Piazza out. His defense was certainly sub-par as compared to other HoF catchers, but I think he more than makes up for it with his bat.
|
10 | C1-NRB
ID: 5932328 Tue, May 20, 2008, 16:32
|
Let's compare these two. One is a "first ballot Hall of Famer." The other, according to some people, isn't. Who's who?
G..... AB... R......H.....2B....3B...HR...RBI...TB...BB...SO..SB..CS..OBP..SLG..AVG
2055 7213 1219 2247 514 15 309 1261 3718 1283 1202 49 30 .418 .515 .312
1912 6911 1048 2127 344 8 427 1335 3768 759 1113 17 20 .377 .545 .308
I apologize for the un-J like presentation.
|
11 | Mattinglyinthehall Dude
ID: 01629107 Tue, May 20, 2008, 16:34
|
Is he the best catcher ever?
Who knows, really. There are probably strong cases for Bench, Berra and Ivan Rodriguez. I have touble with Gibson because how many people can say they saw him play enough?
|
12 | Ref Donor
ID: 539581218 Tue, May 20, 2008, 16:35
|
As someone who followed him even before he became famous by becoming a stud, I agree with pretty much all of you.
Great hitting catcher. Terrible defensive catcher. Different "era" with the "live ball and better equipment" and better fit athletes, but the same is true in all sports. He is definitely a HOF inductee--just don't know if they will put him on the first ballot or not.
|
13 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418 Tue, May 20, 2008, 16:53
|
If he were gay, sure, Hall of Famer. But, he says he dates women, so his defensive liabilities become too much to overcome :)
Seriously, never liked the guy at all. I imagine myself as a throwback, old time typewriter-clackin' sports flack. The type who hold grudges and drinks too much. The type who make sure no one gets voted in unanimously.
He's lucky I don't have a vote.
|
14 | Uptown Bombers Donor
ID: 035616416 Tue, May 20, 2008, 17:10
|
re:10
One is obviously Piazza. The other is Edgar Martinez, but there is no comparison between the two as far as I'm concerned. Players get judged by the position the play. Catchers have always had lesser expectations. Offensively, Piazza beats his top HOF competition. As a non-catcher, Edgar didn't come close to the HOF magic numbers of 500 HR/3000 hits. Without those, there is no way Edgar should be considered a first ballot HOF'er, if a HOF'er at all. For me, it's not even the "Edgar didn't play a position argument," he just doesn't have the numbers.
|
15 | blue hen
ID: 30311814 Tue, May 20, 2008, 17:14
|
For the record, Piazza gets in on the first ballot and is the best catcher ever, in this Hen's opinion. I have yet to find a good defensive metric for catchers that I trust. Sure, Piazza's not great defensively, but he did handle some darn good pitching staffs.
After Piazza, I go: 2. Bench 3. Berra 4. Gibson 5. Fisk
Pudge (Rodriguez, not Fisk) misses out because of a steadfast refusal to draw walks, and because he didn't have the power of these other four.
Others? Mauer? Martin? VMart?
|
16 | Myboyjack
ID: 8216923 Tue, May 20, 2008, 17:22
|
First ballot - best hitting catcher ever. Not best catcher ever.
|
17 | Toral
ID: 575542418 Tue, May 20, 2008, 17:27
|
I shouldn't have forgot Yogi om the all-time list. I have learned much by having been absorbed to his philosophies.
Toral
|
18 | blue hen
ID: 30311814 Tue, May 20, 2008, 17:31
|
I don't know which is funnier - the feeble attempt at a Yogi-ism or the thought that anybody in this thread actually left Yogi off?
|
19 | Razor
ID: 4532926 Tue, May 20, 2008, 17:32
|
He is the best hitting catcher ever, but he was a pretty big liability behind the plate. His arm was below average to begin his career and just became brutal later on.
The best catcher ever discussion is only between Bench, Berra and Gibson, and Bench has got my vote. Piazza is 4th and Pudge, assuming he did not use steroids, is 5th. Piazza was a monster at the plate his first 10 years in the league.
Doubt he goes in as a Dodger, but it'd be nice.
|
20 | C1-NRB
ID: 5932328 Tue, May 20, 2008, 17:32
|
Yeah, it's Edgar.
I'm with SZ, though. I never liked the guy and feel like as a liability behind the plate he had better make up for it at the plate.
|
21 | Perm Dude
ID: 27433209 Tue, May 20, 2008, 17:36
|
To be fair, though, a weak-armed catcher is much less a liability than, say, a weak-armed outfielder.
Piazza was a good signal caller and decent at other defensive catching needs. His offense was outstanding, of course.
|
22 | Toral
ID: 575542418 Tue, May 20, 2008, 17:47
|
The era compayison is relevant. Bench gets points because he played during a low-scoring, high SB, era in which SBs were inportant. I'm not sure how strong Yogi's arm was but it didn't matter because whe SB was a rare play in the 50s.
If Piazza had been smart enough he could have got an agent to demand that he be traded to an AL team early in his career. His arm would have been less important and he could have DHed for rest. He woukd have been #1 no doubt.
Put Johnny Bench on a bad team in the 50s and people here would be saying, "Who"?
Toral
|
23 | blue hen
ID: 30311814 Tue, May 20, 2008, 17:58
|
The #1 catcher? If he'd been a sometime DH on an AL team? Sounds fishy to me.
Edgar is interesting. He's got some spectacular career numbers and his hitting looks silly next to, say, Andruw Jones. But he brought zero to the discussion in the field. At least Piazza stood behind the plate and allowed the Dodgers to play Eric Karros instead of Chris Widger.
|
24 | Ref Donor
ID: 539581218 Tue, May 20, 2008, 17:59
|
Piazza demanded to catch. The Dodgers were ready to move him to 1B and he refused. The Dodgers gave him his chance. I kind of would be surprised if he didn't go in as a Dodger.
|
25 | Razor
ID: 4532926 Tue, May 20, 2008, 18:03
|
Let's not forget that some defensive contribution, which Piazza had for a long time, is better than no defensive contribution. Edgar Martinez does not deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence with Mike Piazza, and it's because he could not and did not play defense.
|
26 | Donkey Hunter
ID: 4341818 Tue, May 20, 2008, 22:12
|
98% sure he is a hall of famer but I would say no way on the first ballot. Remember voters don't like voting guys in the first time around. When I think of a first ballot hall of famer I want him to have a certain mystique about him that Piazza just does not have. I think only 35 or so players have gone in their first ballot. Here is the list of all the first ballot guys of the last 2000s.
Kirby Puckett Dave Winfield Eddie Murray Ozzie Smith Cal Ripken Tony Gwynn Paul Moliter Dennis Eckersly Wade Boggs
And actually that list had more people on it than I thought it would so now I think he has a better chance to go in first ballot compared to when I started writing this. For some reason the player that I seem to compare him to in modern times is Jeff Kent. Without looking up numbers Kent I think Kent has some of the all time best numbers for a second baseman while having better defense than Piazza but Kent hardly seems like a first ballot guy.
Also the Piazza election will be very interesting because as of now it would have both Bonds and Clemens in it. The years between now and then seem to be pretty week so thta will boost his candidacy also.
|
27 | Donkey Hunter
ID: 4341818 Tue, May 20, 2008, 22:17
|
Here's a partial list of players who are eligible for consideration for the Hall of Fame by the baseball writers in coming years:
2009: Steve Avery, Jay Bell, Mike Bordick, John Burkett, David Cone, Ron Gant, Mark Grace, Rickey Henderson, Todd Hundley, Orlando Merced, Charles Nagy, Denny Neagle, Jesse Orosco, Dean Palmer, Dan Plesac, Rick Reed, Greg Vaughn, Mo Vaughn, Matt Williams
2010: Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Dave Burba, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Mark McLemore, Shane Reynolds, David Segui, Robin Ventura, Fernando Vina, Todd Zeile
2011: Wilson Alvarez, Carlos Baerga, Jeff Bagwell, Bret Boone, Kevin Brown, Cal Eldred, John Franco, Juan Gonzalez, Marquis Grissom, Bobby Higginson, Charles Johnson, Al Leiter, Tino Martinez, Raul Mondesi, Jose Offerman, John Olerud, Rafael Palmeiro, Paul Quantrill, Steve Reed, Kirk Rueter, Rey Sanchez, Benito Santiago, B.J. Surhoff, Ugueth Urbina, Ismael Valdez, Larry Walker, Dan Wilson
2012: Pedro Astacio, David Bell, Jeromy Burnitz, Vinny Castilla, Scott Erickson, Carl Everett, Jeff Fassero, Alex S. Gonzalez, Danny Graves, Rick Helling, Dustin Hermanson, Jose Hernandez, Brian Jordan, Matt Lawton, Bill Mueller, Terry Mulholland, Jeff Nelson, Phil Nevin, Brad Radke, Joe Randa, Tim Salmon, Ruben Sierra, J.T. Snow, Jose Vizcaino, Bernie Williams, Eric Young
2013: Sandy Alomar Jr., Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Jeff Cirillo, Royce Clayton, Roger Clemens, Jeff Conine, Steve Finley, Julio Franco, Shawn Green, Ryan Klesko, Mike Lieberthal, Kenny Lofton, Jose Mesa, Damian Miller, Eric Milton, Russ Ortiz, Neifi Perez, Mike Piazza, Reggie Sanders, Aaron Sele, Mike Stanton, Todd Walker, David Wells, Rondell White, Bob Wickman, Woody Williams
Of these guys Rickey Henderson is a lock in 2009. Edgar and McGriff have cases for 2010. 2011 has Bagwell and Palmeiro and who knows what will happen for that one. 2012 seems to be weak.
|
28 | Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Tue, May 20, 2008, 22:19
|
Ricky going in solo next year? I have no doubt that's his dream.
|
29 | Seattle Zen
ID: 29241823 Wed, May 21, 2008, 00:23
|
Ricky going in solo next year?
I bet he introduces himself. It will be unquestionably the greatest introduction of all time.
|
30 | Tree
ID: 29426215 Wed, May 21, 2008, 06:32
|
98% sure he is a hall of famer but I would say no way on the first ballot. Remember voters don't like voting guys in the first time around. When I think of a first ballot hall of famer I want him to have a certain mystique about him that Piazza just does not have. I think only 35 or so players have gone in their first ballot. Here is the list of all the first ballot guys of the last 2000s.
Kirby Puckett Dave Winfield Eddie Murray Ozzie Smith Cal Ripken Tony Gwynn Paul Moliter Dennis Eckersly Wade Boggs
come on now. while i with mystique being part of some those guys above, a few of them hardly had "mystique" to them. Molitor and Murray were good, solid, hard-nosed players that went out every day and did their job, and did it very well. Gwynn straddles the line, only because he was such an astonishing hitter. if he's a slightly less good than he was, he definitely lacks "mystique"...
|
31 | blue hen
ID: 30311814 Wed, May 21, 2008, 11:24
|
Donkey Hunter, you are missing quite a bit there. Here's my take (my votes):
2009 In: Rickey Henderson Stays on ballot: Cone, Grace, G. Vaughn, M. Vaughn, Williams
2010 In: Roberto Alomar, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez Stays on ballot: Galarraga, Lankford, McGriff, Ventura, Zeile
2011 In: Jeff Bagwell, Rafael Palmeiro Stays on ballot: Baerga, Boone, Brown, JuanGone, Leiter, T. Martinez, Olerud, Santiago, Walker
2012 In: (none) Stays on ballot: Burnitz, Jordan, Bernie
2013 In: Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Mike Piazza Stays on ballot: Franco, Green, Lofton, Wells
|
32 | Razor
ID: 4532926 Wed, May 21, 2008, 11:35
|
Bagpipes and Martinez are fringy. Doubt Palmeiro makes it in on his first try thanks to the cloud over him. Larkin has the numbers, but it may take him a few years. Alomar may have to wait a year.
|
33 | blue hen
ID: 30311814 Wed, May 21, 2008, 12:14
|
I think Bagwell's pretty safe. Remember he spent a bunch of years in the Astrodome and was never a DH. Also had a bunch of steals and walks.
Martinez is fringy, mostly because his numbers aren't like Manny or Thomas or guys like that. But he's terribly underrated. And let's be fair - he did play 500 games at third base (and 1400 at DH).
In my mind, Alomar and Larkin are clearly in, but agree that both may have to wait. They both did a whole lot of things really well. Alomar lasted a little longer, but Larkin did win an MVP.
|
34 | Perm Dude
ID: 27433209 Wed, May 21, 2008, 12:22
|
I think Larkin is a lock. Martinez won't get in until 2012, if ever, partly because he's first eligible when both Larkin and Alomar are on the ballot. I think he'll suffer from an anti-DH bias. Yeah, he played the field a bit, but he was a DH more than half of his career and nearly exclusively the last ten years.
Mid to late 90's he was a crack hitter--not only hit well but hit in the clutch, on some squads that were pretty darn good.
|
35 | Mattinglyinthehall Dude
ID: 01629107 Wed, May 21, 2008, 12:23
|
Alomars shouldn't have to wait long, hopefully only a year or two. Lankford is a bubble player - and on the bad side of the bubble at that.
|
36 | Donkey Hunter
ID: 4341818 Wed, May 21, 2008, 12:35
|
Re:30 You must have missed this line. "And actually that list had more people on it than I thought it would so now I think he has a better chance to go in first ballot compared to when I started writing this." Although I would definitely say that Gwynn had the mystique I spoke of. That leaves Murray and Molitor a 500 HR guy and a 3000 hit guy.
Re:31 I was just listing the guys who I thought would be first ballot. I think 2010 and 2012 will be years when no first ballot guys make it and they clear out a few nonfirst ballot guy. Specifically I see 2010 as a year for McGwire to be forgiven and maybe Jim Rice if he does not ggo in with Rickey. 2012 for Alomar and McGriff.
|
37 | JeffG Leader
ID: 01584348 Wed, May 21, 2008, 13:13
|
Back to Piazza. Should the Mets should retire his number 31?
|
38 | KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 354302015 Wed, May 21, 2008, 13:52
|
"Back to Piazza. Should the Mets should retire his number 31?"
Current NYM retired numbers are 37 (Casey Stengel), 14 (Gil Hodges), 41 (Tom Seaver), and 42 (Jackie Robinson). We can remove Robinson from the discussion and leave it down to Stengel, Hodges, and Seaver.
Casey Stengel Managed the New York Mets for 3 seasons and part of a fourth. Besides being the first manager of the Mets, there's really no other reason to have retired Stengel's number from the Mets' perspective. His first season is still the worst on record and the team never won more than 53 games under his management. Still, Stengel was a great manager and left a LOT of success with the Yankees to join the start-up Mets. That's worth something.
Gil Hodges Another manager retirement from the Mets' perspective as Hodges only played parts of his last two seasons with the team. Hodges' number being retired is most likely a result of 1969: The Miracle Mets. It was the team's first World Series and an improbable one at that.
Tom Seaver Seaver spent his first 10 years as a Mets player and won a RoY, 3 Cy Youngs, and was selected as an All-Star 9 times. He never -- NEVER -- lost more games than he won while with the Mets and was a 15-game winner 8 times, a 20-game winner 4 times, and a 25-game winner once (1969). If there's anybody who should have a number in the Mets' outfield, it's Seaver.
Mike Piazza I think a fair number of people think of Mike Piazza as a Dodger. Most would be surprised to know that Piazza spent just 5+ years in LA, but 7+ years in New York. The difference is that Piazza seemed to be better in LA, having been Top 5 in MVP voting 3 times, winning the RoY, and being an All-Star 5+ times. He also won 6 Silver Slugger awards.
In New York, he was an All-Star 6 times, but was only Top 5 in MVP voting once. He also only won 4 Silver Slugger awards as his career began to decline in 2003.
Stengel and Hodges made a name for themselves in New York with a new team. Seaver made a name for himself because he was destined to be a HoFer. Piazza, well, he already had a name for himself and pretty much just began the decline of his career with the Mets.
To me, I think the Mets should wait a good amount of time before issuing his number again (like Gary Carter and Willie Mays), but I don't think they should retire it.
|
39 | Mattinglyinthehall Dude
ID: 01629107 Wed, May 21, 2008, 14:18
|
Agreed. Its a shame that of the key players from the mid-80s Mets who hung around long enough, none lived up to the honor of having his number retired.
|
40 | blue hen
ID: 30311814 Wed, May 21, 2008, 14:26
|
Yeah, Dwight Gooden? Darryl Strawberry? Howard Johnson? Sid Fernandez? David Cone? Jesse Orosco? Gregg Jeffries? Mookie Wilson? Keith Hernandez?
Did you know that Piazza is 10th on the all-time Mets list in games played?
|
41 | Mattinglyinthehall Dude
ID: 01629107 Wed, May 21, 2008, 14:31
|
Throw in Lenny Dykstra, Ron Darling and Rick Aguilerra for good measure.
|
42 | JeffG Leader
ID: 01584348 Wed, May 21, 2008, 14:43
|
Instead of even retiring numbers, I prefer concept of Yankees monument park, or what the Phillies 'Wall of Fame' where they have bronze plaques of players and other people important to the franchise that they wish to honor without necesarily retiring that player's number.
Piazza spent 7 seasons with the Mets and was the face of the franchise, a leader and a key player statistically, and played with great distinction. The Mets should do something to honor his time there.
|
43 | blue hen
ID: 30311814 Wed, May 21, 2008, 14:51
|
But JeffG, the Yankees have retired like 50 numbers!
|
44 | JeffG Leader
ID: 01584348 Wed, May 21, 2008, 14:55
|
16 actually, but too many IMO. I say recycle them all. But that is another debate.
|
45 | BigBobE
ID: 531131214 Wed, May 21, 2008, 15:00
|
Any Met conversation should include John Franco.
* 15 years with the Mets * All-Star (NL): 1986-87, 1989-90. * Led NL in games finished in 1987 (60) and 1988 (61) * Led NL in saves in 1988 (39), 1990 (33), and 1994 (30) * 1,119 games (NL record, 3rd all-time) * 424 saves (4th all-time) * 774 games finished (2nd all-time) * Captain for the New York Mets * New York Mets career leader in games (695), saves (276) and games finished (484)
|
46 | barilko6
ID: 54402114 Wed, May 21, 2008, 15:01
|
Toronto has a Wall of Excellence as well, without any retired numbers.
I don't think that Larkin, Edgar, Bagwell, or Raffy make it on the first ballot.
I can see Rice getting in with Rickey, just to spite Rickey...haha
|
47 | Razor
ID: 4532926 Wed, May 21, 2008, 16:28
|
I think Bagwell's pretty safe. Remember he spent a bunch of years in the Astrodome and was never a DH. Also had a bunch of steals and walks.
Martinez is fringy, mostly because his numbers aren't like Manny or Thomas or guys like that. But he's terribly underrated. And let's be fair - he did play 500 games at third base (and 1400 at DH).
Bagwell also had an abrupt end to his career, thereby preventing him from piling up the milestone numbers that many of his peers will get. Not totally sold on Bagwell. Whatever advantage he enjoyed by playing in the Astrodome, he lost by playing 5+ years at Minute Maid. It balances out pretty well.
I don't think Edgar is underrated at all. He was a great hitter who played either bad defense or no defense at all. I think people undervalue how much defense is worth. The guy couldn't even play the field during interleague. Edgar is another one who had a relatively short career. 2200 hits is pretty light for a guy who is supposed to get into the Hall on the strength of his hitting. Bags had more hits, but also played defense, played it well and was a terrific baserunner.
|
48 | blue hen
ID: 30311814 Wed, May 21, 2008, 17:27
|
I disagree on Astrodome vs. Minute Maid. He played nine (peak) years in the Astrodome, which was perhaps the most extreme pitchers' park in history. He did not play as many years at Minute Maid, and on top of that, Minute Maid was not as much of a hitters' park after 2003. In fact, last year it actually favored pitchers (see link above). It definitely doesn't "balance out."
Even so, Bagwell's numbers are impressive. 1400 walks? Places him 25th all-time, one behind Hank Aaron. Also 33rd in career homers (449). We're not talking Kirby Puckett here. Bagwell has a complete career.
|
49 | Nerfherders
ID: 501035289 Wed, May 21, 2008, 18:49
|
In the discussion about short-term HoF's, don't forget about Big Mac. He will get in one of these years.
|
| Rate this thread: | If you wish, you may rate this thread on scale of 1-5. Ratings should indicate how valuable or interesting you believe this thread would be to other users of this forum. A '5' means that this thread is a 'must read'. A '1' means that this is a complete waste of time. If you have previously rated this thread, rating it again will delete your previous rating. If you do not want to rate this thread, but want to see how others have rated it, then click the button without entering a rating, or else click here. |
|
|
Post a reply to this message: (But first, how about checking out this sponsor?)
|
|