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0 Subject: Gurupie 20 2008 Discussion III

Posted by: Ref
- Donor [539581218] Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 01:14

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Prospect Draft is over so it's time for a new thread.
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85Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Wed, Jan 21, 2009, 01:17
That is one of the options he's considering.
86Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 14:12
Sent out an email to see if anyone else is not returning. Getting pressure to replace these managers asap so guys can talk trades with them. Guys ready to attack the "newbie" prey! ;)
87Perm Dude
      ID: 410112116
      Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 14:53
I'm in.
88Great One
      ID: 151126410
      Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 15:54
Watching this thorough review of all potential incoming candidates got me thinking. I am always brainstorming ways to try and improve this league, and I had an idea about a review of teams that continually under perform. This would certainly include mine all the same cause I've been in the gutter since taking over.

What about something where if you finish in the bottom 5 say 2-3 consecutive years that your status as manager comes under formal review (or vote?). Rest of the league decides if you are contributing, active, improving your squad and if you are asset to the league. It just seems like there are so many other talented managers out there who want a crack at this league, that if I can't get the job done that I should be held accountable for the good of the league. And I need to earn the right to keep my spot in what I consider to be a prestigious league.

Now certainly, this is why I say "up for review" - not - finish at the bottom, you get booted! cause obviously we can't control injuries and things of that nature. A certain amount of luck involved in every season. I guess I can outline an official proposal once we get some feedback - decide on specific criteria like how may seasons in a row? finishing in bottom 5 or bottom 3? what kind of voting process etc.

89blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 16:04
I think bottom 3 for two years or bottom 5 for 3 years. Teams do rebuild.

I think it might have to be a closed (but announced) vote. We all send GO our votes and the results get posted but not the individual managers.

I do think this is important - if we are screening newcomers it's worth screening everybody.
90Great One
      ID: 151126410
      Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 16:08
Agree with that part about the screening exactly -- thats where that logic came from.

But I wouldn't send them to me obviously, I'd say send to either commishes or an unbiased non-league member who can post results (anonymously).
Maybe somebody who is in the other G20/G24 leagues but doesn't do baseball?

91Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 16:17
At this point, my guess is that we will be back to CBS as our host. Going to look again at ESPN before making it official, but no other site has a way to deal with the prospects. Really wish CBS would deal with them the way they changed football, but we have a workaround that has been successful. Difference is that ESPN is free and CBS is $149 ($30 off if done by Feb 5 so not sure if that price is before or after--prob before) split 20 ways.

Plaque: G24 and G20 Hoops have done away with it. We just got another one for Twarpy last season (still hasn't gotten it to me ;)). So we have some cash invested in it and not sure if you want to nuke it like we did in the other leagues. Also, with CBS, we already get a free bobblehead. It's not personalized. Don't think we've gotten G24 individual trophy out yet. So this needs to be discussed. Will get the details to those not in our other leagues.

We won't be voting on any new proposals until all 20 managers are set. GO is working on one and I know of no others at this point depending on what people think of the plaque issue.
92Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 16:29
bh said there is no way for ESPN to handle our prospects.
93Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 17:13
I really can't believe anyone's really considering a "secret vote" to expel managers they don't believe are up to snuff. Seriously. That's not any league I want to be a part of.
94Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 17:21
A secret vote?

mbj, I am not sure how you took GO's idea but that's not how I took it and it isn't even a proposal at this point. He had something similar for hoops and it didn't even draw enough support for a vote.

Finally, you said the same thing about G24. If you don't want to be a part of our leagues, just let us know.
95blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 18:05
I did say secret vote. As you can imagine, I have no trouble expressing my thoughts, but I figured it might go over better. Either way, as far as I'm concerned.
96Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 18:10
I didn't even see 89 and 90.
97Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 18:14
Have updated some things on our G20/24 baseball web page. G20 Baseball

Some of the potential new managers were looking at our league and that is the best place to go apart from comanaging then deleting and re-inviting to the proper team.
98Toral
      ID: 575542418
      Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 18:30
Quite aside from whether this is a good idea or not, the minimum period for consideration has to be at least 3 years. You might have teams with personnel situations where it would be irresponsible managing not to make moves that would unfortunately lead to finishing in the bottom three for 2 consecutive years -- i.e., it would be irresponsible to sacrifice guys who might contribute in the future for a collection of mediocre players who might move a team up 5 or 6 places for a year or two, whereupon it would just sink again.
99Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 18:39
Agree with Toral.

I see what GO is trying to do: motivate a manager who continues to bag it to play for next year or remove anyone who is unable to get it done. Just don't know.

We've always re-invited based on activity since sometimes rebuilding projects take longer than others. Maybe it should be on a more individual level where we look at performance and say, hey, GO (or whomever), you need to improve this season if you want to come back next year???
100Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 18:49
I really can't believe anyone's really considering a "secret vote" to expel managers they don't believe are up to snuff. Seriously. That's not any league I want to be a part of.

mbj - please don't consider this political-like spin, but from my perspective this idea sounds intended to have this league be something that is earned and is a priviledge.....something perhaps akin to RIBC. I think the G20/24 leagues were founded with the idea being to offer up the highest level of challenge to some of the highest caliber managers we know. If someone is consistently bad and offers little hope of turning things around, maybe this league isn't for them.

"Secret vote" does sound rather ominous, but I think doing it anonymously would save longtime board friends the uncomfortableness of telling someone you like that the league would like to give someone else a shot to improve the performance of a franchise.

I concur with Toral that if something along these lines is considered that 3 years in the bottom 5 (or whatever level you want to use) is a minimum.
101Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 20:11
A secret vote?

mbj, I am not sure how you took GO's idea but that's not how I took it and it isn't even a proposal at this point. He had something similar for hoops and it didn't even draw enough support for a vote.

Finally, you said the same thing about G24. If you don't want to be a part of our leagues, just let us know.


Sounds like there are plenty of managers waiting in the wings. I give up my teams. Thanks for the competition and hard work of keeping the league going.
102Perm Dude
      ID: 410112116
      Thu, Jan 22, 2009, 20:18
I can see where MBJ is coming from here--though he suddenly sounded like Taxman in his last post.

I wouldn't be for such a move by the league, as I think we have enough turnover as it is. We can probably churn up the league a but by lowering the number of keepers if having people near the bottom is a problem (the more keepers we have, the more static places can become). But I don't think the league really wants to solve that problem in that way, which makes me think it isn't a real problem.

pd
103blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 10:16
In a 20 team league, is turnover really that bad? In RIBC, there's about 30 or 40 percent turnover every year and no one is complaining. I don't want this to be a competition to stay in the league, but I'm here specifically because of the challenge of it. If someone isn't competing, it brings down the overall level of the league. If you're interested in a casual league, why not just join a 12-teamer?
104Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 10:20
101: mbj thanks for being part of the two leagues.
105Great One
      ID: 151126410
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 10:56
Well the main difference with RIBC is that its non-keeper so that makes the turnover a bit easier. But I don't think this review will increase turnover any more -- all it is will be like a checks/balances type thing to make sure everyone is doing their part. How many teams would even qualify to be reviewed from year to year? 1 or 2 at most? 3 straight years in the bottom 5 (as loosely outlined) isn't exactly easy to do - and the likelihood that we would part ways would be small, cause surely that team has been decimated by injuries or whatever the reason and thats fine. I just think its worth establishing a basic criteria to "officially" assess that teams situation, plan and direction and to make sure there isn't a more dynamic alternative that might be able to shake things up and improve the league.

I mean if I keep finishing in the bottom 3 and showing no improvement (and lord knows I am 1 more season away from fitting this criteria!) and Ref looks and sees Theo Epstien and Billy Beane are on the waiting list... how the heck can I rationalize for the good of this league that I not let those guys give it a shot and I step aside.

106Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 11:00
If either of those two are on the wait list, I will gladly trade them places! ;)
107Great One
      ID: 151126410
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 11:05
Billy Beane does have a Playstation game coming out, and I'm not even kidding. Its like MLB GM or something like that.
108Toral
      ID: 575542418
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 11:09
The main difference with RIBC, for the purpose of this argument, is that if you are relegated you can go down to AAA and get back in.

So is there's a 20-man waiting list, we could start a Gurupie 20 AAA with the 3 or 4 bottom teams relegated to AAA every year and the top 4 teams replacing them.

If you were relegated because you had to do some intelligent rebuilding you'd make it back up in a few years. If you were relegated because you were a bad manager, you'd never make it back, thus achieving the original goal of getting rid of bad managers, withour having secret votes or having to insult anyone's abilities.

Now all we need is 20 people to pay money for a league self-advertising it as AAA....

Toeal
109Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 11:11
Please welcome YoungRoman, Jaydog and Slizz to the league. They will be replacing these three teams: StL Cards, Code and mbj. Bj21 has decided to stay in the league afterall.

I will ready the dice rolls so they can pick their teams after getting the rosters to them. This may be finalized yet today.
110Great One
      ID: 151126410
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 11:53
Toral, that (euro-soccer) idea of moving teams up and down to a "AAA" is something I thought about originally... I wonder if we couldn't make even a 10-12 team "G20" league and that essentially becomes the waiting list as you suggest.
111Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 11:58
Not sure if there is thta kind of demand for an "AAA" but if there was enough interst for an AAA, they could play ESPN w/o prospects perhaps so there is no site fee.

Problem you run into though are the people who start playing for next season with their draft pick/prospect trades, etc. Not sure this would work out too well.
112Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 12:18
I have doubts that AAA makes any sense for this league. The skills needed to succeed in a keeper league with prospects are not the same as for a non-keeper/non-prospect league. And I don't think a keeper AAA league makes any sense at all.
113Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 12:33
WELCOME to youngroman, Jaydog and Slizz.

Depending upon which team you get in the wheel of fortune, you might want to expect some emails from me!!
114Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 12:58
Dice Roll results:

611 Jaydog, 546 Slizz, 509 YR

So Jaydog has first pick of teams. Slizz 2nd.
115Toral
      ID: 575542418
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 12:59
I've never suggested an AAA league, I will point out, merely suggested an alternative idea to the one proposed that would work if there were people willing to play along. But even though I know this isn't going to happen, I still feel like explaining how this sand-castle-in-the-air league should work:

(1) A 12-team or 14-team AAA os pointless under these circumstances. Part of the difficulty of this league is adjusting to the different valuations necessary in a league of this size given differential positional scarcity so an AAA league should have 20 members, just like the main league.

(2) The AAA league should definitely be a keeper league and ideally should have prospects although that's not crucial. The point is to create a venue where managers can demonstrate that they have the ability to move up to the bigs. The playing rules should therepore mimic the big league rules as much as possible. Winning a redraft league just isn't the same thing. You might have to rebuild with keeper and prospect strategies in AAA to get in the top just as much as you might have to in the bigs. The managers being relegated would then (properly) have the advantage of starting in AAA with the keepers held by the teams that have moved up.

Just to repeat, I'm not saying such a thing could work in RL. I don't think you'll find 20 people who will think "Hey, I feel like joining a 20-man league which works on the assumption that I'm not as good a manager as the guys in this other league, and if I have a bad day in the first draft I may have to spend 3 or 4 years to get to the top of this minor league just to get to join the big league, inheriting a bad team, all for the pleasure of playing with these managers some of whom aren't so hot anyway as I know having played against them."

I could instead list a bunch of reasons why the idea wouldn't work but that's no fun because it's too easy. For example, just for two, there would be undoubtedly be occasions where someone considered a superb choice as a replacement manager couldn't be picked because of this AAA thing which makes us go to the the manager there; AAA would soon have bottom teams so bad that no one could be recruited to replace dropout managers.

Toral
116Great One
      ID: 151126410
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 13:37
Toral - I think you are spot on that its the perfect system and a great concept IF we had 15-20 more guys interested. It could be a sweet proving ground league. So maybe if we all of a sudden get a huge influx of new guys that want in this league, we keep that in the back of our mind.
117Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 15:34
RE 115

Nice Post
118Jaydog
      ID: 419101610
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 16:54
I'm going to take myboyjack. Really looking forward to the season.
119blackjackis21
      Dude
      ID: 034837521
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 16:57
Hey all - fortunately mjd has agreed to help co-pilot my team this year. Ref - can you please add him to the distribution list for your e-mails? I don't believe there's a way to list two e-mails for one team on the website, but correct me if I'm wrong. Otherwise, either of us is free to make or discuss trades/lineup changes/ add/drops, whatever. He has my logon info. Looking forward to the season. Thanks.
120Slizz
      ID: 4710371415
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 17:03
Going with the code...
121Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 17:03
I'm going to take myboyjack. Really looking forward to the season.

So the young man whose father is a Cleveland Indians fan chooses a Cincinnati-laden squad!! Sacriledge!
122Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 17:07
Looks official then:

myboyjack is now the property of Jaydog

Code Cracker is now the property of Slizz

StL Cards is now the property of youngroman

Announcement: I would like to consider trade discussions involving Indians catcher Victor Martinez. While I understand his value would not be the peak it was after his 2007 season, please understand I do not think his value equals his fluke 2008 season either.

I'm interested in a 2nd baseman but can talk anything.
123blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 17:19
I'll give you Jeff Kent.
124Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 17:25
Actually, Cleveland and Cincy aren't really historical rivals - at least, not in baseball. They just happen to be in the same state.

Not true in football, however. Cincy, Pittsburgh, and Baltimore are all hated rivals for the Browns. I'd bet that Cincy ranks 3rd on that list, though - well behind the other two.

125Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 17:35
I also don't want to forget to Thank Code Cracker and especially StL Cards. Cards helped me so much as commish and losing him in that capacity was a big loss.

So as Species said the league is set.

RE: 119 and bj/mjd's team

The way a co-owned team works is that EITHER of them has the authority to make a transaction. You don't have to talk to voth of them. Now they will likely want to consult each other, but by having access to the team, whatever they do is as if they were sole owner. They only get one vote on anything, obviously. If a team opens up, mjd has the right to apply for that team if he chooses. mjd REALLY wanted in this league bad and is super active. I think he can really help bj21 as he also wanted to stay in but is worried about not being as active as he needs to be to be a contender. Thanks bj21 for thinking of the league!!!

YR and Slizz have signed into their teams and the former owners have been removed. Same thing will be done for Jaydog when he's able to get to it. Invite just went out to mjd to co-manage w/bj.

Please help the new managers get acquainted with the league. I've told them they could ask any of us for assistance. Slizz is in our other two leagues so he at least has an idea of how we run things. YR is from Europe, but don't let his location fool you--the man knows his stuff. May need to help him out for the drafts--but other drafts I've been in with him hasn't even been noticeable. I've been runner-up to him in hoops and football in another league and he excels in baseball. As Species alluded, Jaydog has a special conneciton to a damn good manager in our league too and is very active and talented by all accounts.
126Tosh
      Leader
      ID: 057721710
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 19:50
Welcome to the new managers. Best of luck.

I consider most of my players tradeable, but here's a few players I would look to be trading first. If you need a big gun, consider Jason Bay (OF, BOS) or Carlos Lee (OF, HOU). If you are looking to go younger, consider Clay Buchholz (SP, BOS) or Delmon Young (OF, MIN).
127Peter N.
      ID: 4910362617
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 20:18
Gotta love having Slizz in another league!

Welcome to Jaydog and yr.
128Slizz
      ID: 4208421
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 21:58
thanks Peter N! Hopefully i'm not as woeful in this as I am in basketball.
129Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Fri, Jan 23, 2009, 23:14
I have way too many keepers. But at this point, I haven't figure out who I'd likely be keeping. Obviously there are some I can't because of the 9 limit.
130darkside
      ID: 3039119
      Sat, Jan 24, 2009, 10:14
Welcome fellas...it's a good league.

I'm looking to move pitching. Have got some good, young starters (P. Hughes, Josh Johnson, J. Lester, and B. Myers) and several relievers looking at closing jobs (J. Broxton, J. Devine, J. Motte, M. Lindstrom, and maybe B. Morrow). I like Lester and Broxton the most, but would listen to any offers.

Wouldn't mind moving an OF'er, but I guess that's true for lots of us.
131blue hen
      ID: 8115717
      Sat, Jan 24, 2009, 12:05
Darkside: What are you looking for?

I'll looking to move Russell Martin, Jose Valverde, and Adam Jones. Looking for some pitching, hopefully fairly young and with a lot of strikeouts. Or a hitter.
132darkside
      ID: 3039119
      Sat, Jan 24, 2009, 12:34
blue hen: I made an offer to get things started...
133blue hen
      ID: 8115717
      Sat, Jan 24, 2009, 14:02
Got it, Darkside, and I responded. I think we match up well.
134Ref
      Donor
      ID: 539581218
      Sun, Jan 25, 2009, 09:47
Ok, since we're now in preseason 2009, we need to start a new thread here.
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