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Subject: 2009 Hall of Fame ballot out
Posted by: blue hen
- [299161612] Tue, Dec 02, 2008, 13:20
link
Here's my ballot:
- Rickey Henderson
- Tim Raines
- Bert Blyleven
- Mark McGwire
- Tommy John |
| 1 | DWetzel at library
ID: 61146212
Tue, Dec 02, 2008, 13:46
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All of those, plus:
Harold Baines
Andre Dawson
Jack Morris
Jim Rice
Alan Trammell (homer pick--deal with it)
Rickey should be unanimous, but of course he won't be because some tool writer (or ten) didn't like him.
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| 2 | Perm Dude
ID: 291115120
Tue, Dec 02, 2008, 14:36
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Henderson
Rice
Blyleven (top 5 in K's. Not a lot of love while he was playing, but he's a HoF)
L Smith (retired as top saves leader and is still #3)
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| 3 | C1-NRB
ID: 17101168
Tue, Dec 02, 2008, 14:49
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Rickey
Lee Smith
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| 4 | Razor
ID: 181051618
Tue, Dec 02, 2008, 15:04
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Henderson
Raines
Blyleven
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| 5 | blue hen
ID: 299161612
Tue, Dec 02, 2008, 15:20
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Agreed. Rickey is the best candidate since Cal Ripken. The first three, to me, are no brainers. Blyleven and Raines may never get their due.
Lee Smith's got a decent case, but not enough for me. Jim Rice is out by a mile.
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| 6 | Khahan
ID: 1065339
Wed, Dec 03, 2008, 09:45
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Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Ricky Henderson
I'm still on the fence about Tim Raines. Mark McGwire is not on my ballot. However, it has nothing to do w/ steroid use. He was not on my ballot before the scandal brought him down and tarnished him. Just can't find the old thread where I discussed it. :(
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| 7 | JeffG
Leader
ID: 01584348
Wed, Dec 03, 2008, 13:59
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My ballot would be:
Ricky Henderson
Jim Rice - should finally get in on his 15th and final year on the BBWA ballot.
David Cone - not a HOFer, but just a year-1 vote as a New Yorker as a final shout out.
Blyleven, Raines, Dawson, Lee Smith, and Tommy John are certainly worthy of consideration, I just tend to believe the HOF enshrinees should really be more outstanding.
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| 8 | JeffG
Leader
ID: 01584348
Wed, Dec 03, 2008, 14:03
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Class of 2008 HOF discussion
[7] McGwire would be on my Class of 2009 ballot as well.
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| 9 | Khahan
ID: 1065339
Wed, Dec 03, 2008, 15:40
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Thanks for the 'bad'link. I know a few years ago I had talked out against Big Mac going into the Hall when he was everybody's hands on favorite to be a first ballot.
Now last year when he'd barely make most voters ballots, I'm speaking up for him. Guess I just don't like to go with the flow.
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| 10 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 344311322
Thu, Dec 04, 2008, 01:05
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- Rickey Henderson
- Bert Blyleven
- Andre Dawson
- Jim Rice
Steroids suck. This entire upcoming era of players will be tough to vote on. The confirmed or very strongly suspected steroid users look like they will get blackballed, it leaves a lot of gray area. Players like Henderson and Raines who knows if they were clean through their careers or how much steroids enhanced their stat line? A host of upcoming players are going to fall into this catagory. That is why Raines is off my ballot for now...need to think about him more.
I even struggle with Rickey. I think betting he did not use steroids for part of his career (even a majority of his career) might be a -EV bet. He was just so dominant it is hard to leave him off. But then using that argument you have to reevaluate Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, etc... Going to be very interesting to see what happens when Bonds and Clemens become eligible.
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| 11 | KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 45657107
Thu, Dec 04, 2008, 08:45
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Ricky.
I see no reason to induct Rice. That it's his last year of eligibility says it all to me. Nothing has changed in the last year, so why this year and not the previous 14? To me, inducting Rice with Ricky is an insult to Ricky. Sure, Ricky was not all that favored by the media, but I just don't see the two as being even close to the same caliber. If Rice didn't make it with Ripken and Gwynn, there's no reason to make it with Ricky.
Blyleven and Dawson should still be on the outside looking in. Both were very good players, but I just don't see them as Hall of Fame caliber players.
Tommy John is more known for a surgery than his career and with a W-L of 288-231, it will likely stay that way.
Big Mac can watch the ceremonies from home while chewing down some Andro.
Tim Raines has the best shot of joining Ricky and I'm a bit on the fence about him. He's probably the 2nd most deserving of the crowd, for me, but I don't know that he's "in."
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| 12 | Nerfherders
ID: 347242717
Thu, Dec 04, 2008, 12:49
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Henderson
McGwire
Blyleven
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| 13 | JeffG
Leader
ID: 01584348
Fri, Dec 05, 2008, 17:11
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Veterans Committee ballot selections to be announced Monday
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| 14 | JeffG
Leader
ID: 01584348
Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 14:27
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Veterans Committe votes in Joe Gordon.
On the ballot but not elected included Ron Santo, Joe Torre, Gil Hodges, Dick Allen, Jim Kaat, Tony Oliva, Al Oliver, Vada Pinson, Luis Tiant and Maury Wills
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| 15 | loki
ID: 291063015
Mon, Dec 08, 2008, 21:32
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Purportedly the system was fixed to select veterans who for reasons right or wrong were overlooked or ignored by the baseball writers committee in their yearly vote. I do not know the exact numbers but there still are very few veterans elected each year. On Jeff G's list Hodges and Wills are the most deserving. Hodges was the premiere first basemen of the 1950's, both in hitting and fielding. This alone should merit his election to the HOF, but he also managed the "Miracle Mets" to the 1969 World Series. Maury Wills almost single-handedly made base stealing an integral part of baseball again. In addition to changing baseball strategy he was a Golden Glove fielder and an MVP. I think that he has not been voted in because of his 1984 arrest for cocaine possession. These charges were dismissed prior to trial due to insufficient evidence. Santo, Allen, Kaat, Pinson, Oliver, Tiant and Torre were all good players, but none were dominant nor game changing players. However Torre should make it one day as a manager.There are many more players deserving of election who will not make it until the election process is changed for the better.
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| 16 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Tue, Dec 09, 2008, 12:11
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Santo is the best player on that list and was better than about a quarter of current Hall of Famers.
Torre will make it as a manager, but that's almost not fair. He was very good (and very underrated) as a player and deserves credit for the combination.
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| 17 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Tue, Dec 09, 2008, 13:40
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Here's my ballot:
Henderson
Rice
Blyleven
I love steroids, really do. Women should never touch the stuff, but grown men can certainly benefit from them without any last effects. The scare tactics used to demonize them are as ridiculous as the crap the government spews about marijuana.
That said, Mark McGwire does not garner my vote. He had a great rookie year, amazing, even. Then he was unremarkable for seven years. Injuries hampered him. Then he strung together an amazing offensive onslaught. But it was not enough. I expect consistency with my greatness. McGwire's resume is about the same as Albert Belle and neither get the nod.
Ron Santo has no business being in this discussion, period! Every year he is denied is another year to celebrate sanity amongst the Veterans' Committee.
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| 18 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Tue, Dec 09, 2008, 15:41
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After McGwire's rookie year, he had four (not seven) bad years. I say bad, but in 1990, he had 110 walks and an OPS+ of 143. Then he had a merely "great" year, then got hurt for a couple years then had some pretty insane years. His career was shorter than it could have been, but he definitely has the resume.
McGwire had a 162 career OPS+. He broke 170 in six seasons of 300 or more ABs.
Kirby Puckett? Peaked at 152, career 124.
Dave Winfield? Peaked at 159, career 130.
Eddie Murray? Peaked at 158, career 129.
Rafael Palmeiro? Peaked at 159, career 132.
Jose Canseco? Peaked at 170, career 132.
Fred McGriff? Peaked at 166, career 134.
Billy Williams? Peaked at 172, career 133.
Tony Perez? Peaked at 159, career 122.
Jim Rice? Peaked at 157, career 128.
Tony Gwynn? Peaked at 169, career 132.
Ron Santo? Peaked at 164, career 125 (plus defense)
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| 19 | Perm Dude
ID: 41131911
Tue, Dec 09, 2008, 15:54
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Which just goes to show how steroids inflate the numbers across the boards. The fact that McGwire's ill-gotten bashing caused people to pitch around him and inflated his OPS through higher walk totals makes the case against him.
Until there is a level playing field (either everyone has access to performance enhancing drugs, or no one does) then those that do use them are cheaters. No more (but certainly no less).
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| 20 | Razor
ID: 181051618
Tue, Dec 09, 2008, 16:10
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How many of those guys are 1B's that are in the Hall of Fame? Comparing McGwire who did nothing well except for hit to a bunch of players who did a variety of things well is useless.
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| 21 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 4110481415
Tue, Dec 09, 2008, 16:45
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Without Steroids I think Mac is a lock for the hall...he has nearly 600HRs. I do not care if he was one dimensional...that one dimension was pretty dominant.
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| 22 | Perm Dude
ID: 41131911
Tue, Dec 09, 2008, 16:49
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But we don't know how many home runs he would have hit if he'd been drug-free.
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| 23 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Wed, Dec 10, 2008, 10:12
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Other players used steroids and couldn't match McGwire's numbers.
Re #20 (Razor): Winfield, Murray, and Williams didn't add a whole lot besides hitting, and they are way behind McGwire in hitting. Rice, also, but fortunately he's not in the Hall. Sure Winfield was a great fielder, but not at a demanding position. And if you ask me, Winfield is a worthy HOFer.
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| 24 | Toral
ID: 575542418
Fri, Jan 09, 2009, 19:39
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Bert Blyleven
Rickey Henderson
Tommy John
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Blyleven is a better pitcher than at least half of the pitchers in the HOF. Pitching for bad teams cost him chances for 20 games. He will make it eventually. If I were argung in Seattle Zen style, I would just say "He had the most feared curveball in the game."
Tommy John is now right on the borderline; only "Tommy John surgery" puts him over the top.
Raines will take long to get in as a direct comparable to Rickey. But Rickey would be in if the Hall was 67% smaller than it was. Raines deserves it on his own merits. Oh, the cocaine -- he didn't let it ruin 2 or 3 seasons of his career, like Dave Parker.
Trammell suffers because just when he became elibible a huge number of massive hitting SS horses joined BB. That wasn't his fault, tho, was it? Deserved MVP over Bell by far in 1987 (and I say that as a Blue Jay fan). He and Whitaker will eventually be elected by some Veterans' Committee, quite possibly only after they're dead.
Rice will make it this year. There are predictions of the actual vote on the Hardball Times. Rice benefits from the "almost elected" effect as well as the "last year" effect. Nevertheless sabrmetricians are united aginst him. Among the direct contemporaries who were better then Rice: Dwight Evans (long-time teammate) and Roy White (Bill James argument). On THT a contributor attempted to show that Brian Downing, a player Seattle Zen maybe doesn't even remember, was better than Rice. Made a good argument but I think valued too much Downing's mediocre seasons.
If being the most feared hitter in baseball gets you in, then a Frank Howard campaign ought to be started.
Anyway Rice will make it this year. To quote Bill James re the election of Phil Rizzuto, "He won't be the worst one there."
Toral
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| 25 | Seattle Zen
ID: 34053920
Fri, Jan 09, 2009, 21:53
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Tommy John is now right on the borderline; only "Tommy John surgery" puts him over the top.
Talk about "most feared"!
Of course I remember Brian Downing. I seriously suspect that he was a steroid user, he had HUGE guns. Not in the same league as Rice, I don't care what kind of pasta machine you throw his stats into, they do not compare to the angel hair that is Mr. Rice. The guys at The Hardball Times can just kiss Jim Rice's about-to-be enshrined-copper-cast-ass. I'll have no truck with those who cast aspersions upon Rice or even worse, Kirby Puckett.
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| 26 | Seattle Zen
ID: 34053920
Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 00:06
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Well, I'd take Tommy John Surgery over Lou Gehrig's Disease any day.
Toral - very exacting analysis regarding your Tommy John decision. By the way, Rice hit .316 and slugged .526 against Mr. John, only hitting into 2 double plays!
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| 27 | Toral
ID: 575542418
Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 03:24
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My John analysis is simply a revision of my past analysis. I would think that would be obvious to anyone who has followed past HoF arguments here.
Just as you did not repeat your arguments for Jim Rice. Unsurprising because there aren't any that persuade anyone who understands baseball, beyond the assertion that he was for a long time the most feared hitter in the American League. That big black dudes turn you on is not an HoF argument.
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| 28 | Seattle Zen
ID: 490561011
Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 13:14
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Ah, it looks like the court ordered "boot-up interlock device" is no longer working. Looking at the time of your post, Toral, I bet you would have blown a .12 or above, so I'll chalk up your jungle fever yearnings to an alcohol-fueled Freudian slip.
I, on the other hand, will be glad that the best hitter in the American league from 1975-1986 will get his just due. He merely led the American League in 12 categories, including home runs, RBIs, runs, hits, total bases and slugging percentage. Hits, Runs, AND Home Runs. Eleven years. Baseball doesn't change that radically. It's not like saying, "He was the most ethical member of the Executive branch from 2001 through 2008". He was the best in the American league and the best are enshrined.
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| 29 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 13:26
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The notion that Jim Rice was the best hitter in the AL in 1984, 1985 and/or 1986 is absurd.
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| 30 | Seattle Zen
ID: 490561011
Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 13:34
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For an eleven year period, he led the American league in 12 offensive categories. No, he wasn't the best hitter in each of those 11 years and it is absurd to think I claimed that.
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| 31 | Perm Dude
ID: 59022923
Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 16:38
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MITH picks out Mattingly's three best years. What a surprise.
Why is Mattingly more deserving than Rice? They were of course, different hitters, and while Mattingly was respected he wasn't feared. [And before Toral goes all Limbaugh on me the reason is clear to those on the center-right through the far left: Nobody fears singles. They fear home runs.
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| 32 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 17:16
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MITH picks out Mattingly's three best years. What a surprise.
Cool your jets there, Permy. No one said Mattingly is any more deserving than Rice. And while it's true that I misunderstood Zen, rendering my comment moot anyway, it wouldn't have made any sense at all for me to evoke any season other than '84, '85 and '86 in challenging what I thought Zen meant when he said Rice was the best hitter from 75-86.
Geez I make one reference to Don Mattingly in a HOF thread and it's lept upon with a chiding and doubly nonsensical response.
What a surprise.
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| 33 | Perm Dude
ID: 59022923
Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 17:18
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But, as you said, you didn't pick those because of Donny M. Nevertheless, I don't think you will be able to get away from the appearance of bias in that way so long as you continue to use that moniker in this thread.
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| 34 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 17:20
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But, as you said, you didn't pick those because of Donny M.
Um, no. I didn't say that, either.
And of course I'm biased. BFD.
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| 35 | Perm Dude
ID: 59022923
Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 17:32
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BFD, indeed. I genuinely don't know why you're pissed. Maybe misunderstanding two posts in a row will do that. Or the Political Forum mentality is spilling over. But BFD, right?
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| 36 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sat, Jan 10, 2009, 17:37
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misunderstanding two posts in a row
You mean that you misunderstood two posts in a row? That was a little annoying. But moreso was the 2nd sentence of post 31. I guess I'll just have to try to be more accepting of your sarcasm in the future.
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| 37 | Toral
ID: 575542418
Sun, Jan 11, 2009, 21:27
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Oh come now, SZ, were you never taught to be magnanimous in victory? Here you were two days away from the final triumph, after a long exacting battle, of a favourite of yours, for election to the the HoF, and here is your response:The guys at The Hardball Times can just kiss Jim Rice's about-to-be enshrined-copper-cast-ass.
I think in your arrogance and vulgarity you just broke some Leo Durocher records, though I don't know which two.
Brian Downing is an interesting case. As Bill James noted in his last edition of the Historical Abstract, Downing transformed himself physically completely during his career. Whn he came up, as mostly a catcher, he was a little pudgy, bit of a double chin, looking a little bit not-interested-in-being-athletic. By the end of his career he looked totally different, finely sculpted; even his FACE looked different. That comment was written *before* the extent of steroid use was widely known. Crtainly in this era evryone would assume he was on roids or something; the only contrary indication is that there was no one specific year when he suddenly got better.
Personally, as I have said before I have always liked Jim Rice as a player. He is the only player I have ever heckled; and I got him, to my surprise, to respond to my heckle. Indeed in an S-O-M league I am in heading into 1975, I just acquired Jim Rice (and Fred Lynn) in a mammoth deal in which I gave up Mike Schmidt and Steve Carlton. Part of the reason for the deal -- just a little part, mind you, is that I always liked Rice as a player and never liked Schmidt (in his case, for no apparent reason).
Sorry you're not in this league, Zen. When Rice tanks as a player in 8 years or so, I could trade him to you for a good player, as he continued to be for a few years the "most feared hitter in the league", even when he stank and was a below-average left fielder offensively. No doubt even in a competitive league, you would nevertheless trade me a good player for him, given how "feared" he was.
So, after Rice gets elected at 2 P.M. tomorrow, who is the next unworthy candidate/drug user/ personal favourite that you wish to promote for the HoF? We need to prepare ourselves for many years of hilarious baseball-uninformed arguments, and personal abuse.
Toral
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| 38 | Seattle Zen
ID: 380281121
Sun, Jan 11, 2009, 22:29
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Hey, when it comes to Jim Rice, I will draw on my inner Karl Rove and slash and burn to get my guy elected. Baseball is at its very core vulgar, as anyone who has spent time with chewers of tobacco can attest.
who is the next unworthy candidate/drug user/ personal favourite that you wish to promote for the HoF?
Hey, if you looked at my post, I only thought three players were worthy of the ballot this year. I'm a rock ribbed conservative when it comes to Cooperstown. When I stroll through the hallowed halls, I don't want to wallow through a morass of Ron Santos or Alan Trammells, I want to be amazed at those who reside atop Mt. Olympus, Babe Ruth, Walter Johnson, and, hopefully, Jim Rice, knock on wood.
Canton this ain't!
I know you are trying to jinx Mr. Rice. I certainly will be magnanimous in victory, but tonight I still carry the sword to slay those who deny Mr. Rice's throne up in the clouds.
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| 39 | Seattle Zen
ID: 35015123
Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 04:25
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I'm assuming a S-O-M league is Strat-O-Matic, yes? Back in 1981 I would have packaged both John Castino and Joe Charboneau for Jim and you would have lapped it up like a Labbats.
You were never particularly good at recognizing young talent, or lack thereof.
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| 40 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 10:50
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Looks like Rice is going to get in. I don't mind that as much as Dawson, who really needs to get off the ballot soon.
I am feeling better and better about Jack Morris, but I don't know that he's quite there yet.
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| 41 | JeffG
Leader
ID: 01584348
Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 14:03
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Class of 2009 announcement made...Henderson and Rice are in.
Dawson, Blyleven and others did not receive enough votes.
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| 42 | Farn
Leader
ID: 451044109
Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 14:39
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Congrats to Jim Rice. Long deserved in my eyes.
And I'm looking forward to the Ricky Henderson speech. That should be a legendary if he does it in the 3rd person.
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| 43 | Electroman
ID: 47928246
Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 14:58
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How should Dawson be off the ballot?
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| 45 | Khahan
ID: 1065339
Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 15:09
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Dawson should be off the ballot because once you are in the Hall, there is no need to be on the ballot. He and Blyleven should have been elected quite a few years ago.
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| 46 | Perm Dude
ID: 60141214
Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 15:16
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From the Yahoo article:
"Rickey Henderson's first-ballot election into Hall of Fame today is only fitting for the greatest leadoff hitter in baseball history," Oakland Athletics owner Lew Wolff said. "We are proud that much of Rickey's career was spent here in his hometown of Oakland, where he provided Bay Area fans with so many thrills as perhaps the most exciting player of his generation."
Just for fun, mentally substitute "Ricky Henderson" for "Oakland Athletics owner Lew Wolff." It works!
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| 47 | DWetzel at work
ID: 49962710
Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 15:27
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I did giggle a little.
Rickey be Rickey.
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| 48 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 59052613
Mon, Jan 12, 2009, 16:37
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ESPN Page 2 Rickey Hall Speech
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| 49 | CanadianHack
ID: 911251015
Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 01:52
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Jim Rice is hardly the worst player in the Baseball Hall of Fame. He was a slow runner. He led the majors in grounding into double plays for four straight seasons. He is one of the all time leaders in GIDP rates in baseball history. His offensive numbers were boosted by playing in Fenway Park. He is roughly the equivalent of Jose Cruz or Joe Carter. Good players - but not Hall of Fame players.
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| 50 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 10:18
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True, Jim Rice is hardly the worst player in the Hall of Fame. But he's up there.
Dawson? I have yet to hear an argument for Dawson that's even moderately compelling. He would probably be among the 5 worst Hall of Famers.
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| 51 | barilko6
ID: 48563014
Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 10:33
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Dawson is one of three players in the 2000 hit, 400 Home Run, and 300 Stolen Base group, which also includes Mays and Barry Bonds.
He received 8 gold gloves, was voted to START in 7 all-star games, and played in an 8th, He currently ranks 29th on the all time Home Run list with 438 and 28th on the RBI list with 1591.
I think those would be good qualifications. I think the fact that he played a huge part of his career outside the US has really hurt him.
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| 52 | Electroman
ID: 47928246
Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 20:56
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One voter who changed his vote for Dawson this year.
Interesting that a guy who didn't vote for him, did some research and voted for him.
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| 53 | JeffG
ID: 47112621
Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 22:10
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Dawson and Blyleven may do better next year. Nominees for the class of 2010 include any carryovers from this year's vote who had at least 5%. New candidates who are worthy of debate include Edgar Martinez and Robby Alomar. Other first timers who may get votes include Barry Larkin, Andres Galarraga, and Fred McGriff. The full list and those eligible in future years can be seen at the bottom of this page
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| 54 | Perm Dude
ID: 330351317
Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 22:21
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Larkin & Edgar might get some consideration. But there's no reason I can see to bother with any of the other new names:
Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Dave Burba, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Mark McLemore, Shane Reynolds, David Segui, Robin Ventura, Fernando Vina, Todd Zeile
Maybe they'll put a small plaque of Ventura in there, just so Nolan Ryan's plaque can go over and pound on it once in awhile.
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| 55 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 344311322
Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 23:05
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I think I would at least give Alomar some consideration. He probably falls short...he really needed a couple more ok seasons to pass some career milestones. I put him ahead of Larkin.
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| 56 | Razor
ID: 181051618
Tue, Jan 13, 2009, 23:13
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Larkin and Alomar should get in eventually, but that's it. No chance at McGriff, Galarraga or any of the rest of those stooges. Edgar Martinez will be a hot debate for years to come, but I can't support his inclusion. He's like Jim Rice except he contributed even less defensively.
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| 57 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 10:31
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Dawson is one of three players in the 2000 hit, 400 Home Run, and 300 Stolen Base group, which also includes Mays and Barry Bonds.
He received 8 gold gloves, was voted to START in 7 all-star games, and played in an 8th, He currently ranks 29th on the all time Home Run list with 438 and 28th on the RBI list with 1591.
I think those would be good qualifications. I think the fact that he played a huge part of his career outside the US has really hurt him.
I don't think those are good qualifications at all. Five of his All-Star Games were with Chicago, where they do well in both attendance and homerism. Nate McLouth played in the All-Star Game this year - is he on his way to becoming a Hall of Famer?
Andre played a bunch of seasons at Wrigley, a park that can really help hitters, and did help Dawson.
29th in homers and 28 in RBIs? Where does he rank in on-base percentage? Is he in the top 1000?
Dawson was a decent player, but he had a 119 OPS+, which is 40 points below Mark McGwire (see above). There are about 10 candidates I have ahead of him this year.
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| 58 | Perm Dude
ID: 330351317
Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 10:42
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Nate McLouth played in the All-Star Game this year - is he on his way to becoming a Hall of Famer?
This is disingenuous. Dawson was the ASG starter 7 of 8 years. This is a tad better than McLouth.
Andre played a bunch of seasons at Wrigley, a park that can really help hitter...
And this makes his 2 Gold Gloves there look better, yes? You seem to want it both ways.
Look, a person can cherry pick all the data they want ("McGwire only stole 12 bases his whole career!" and so forth). Dawson was a very good player for a long time, and finished on the career leaderboards in a number of areas. HoF? Not quite, IMO, but hardly someone to be dismissed out-of-hand.
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| 59 | Great One
ID: 151126410
Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 11:08
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You know what pisses me off? who the heck are the 5% of voters who DIDN'T vote for Ricky Freaking Henderson?! these guys should have their votes taken away. He's one the best to ever play... ever. And he's not HOF material for you? or is it just the whole "nobody gets in on the first ballot theory"? stupidity. I believe it happened to Cal Ripken too. Just ridiculous.
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| 60 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 11:09
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Voted as an All-Star Game starter? Isn't that just popularity?
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| 61 | barilko6
ID: 90131410
Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 11:13
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Hen...
Dawson's home/away split stats show he was actually a little bit bettter of a hitter on the road.
And the fact he played 6 seasons in a park that can help hitters (Wrigley), I think is more than outweighed by the
While Dawson may not have had the highest OB%, he does rank 23rd all-time in extra base hits, a category that every team always desires.
And playing in an all-star game as a token team requirement one time is a lot different then being voted as a starter 7 times.
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| 62 | Great One
ID: 151126410
Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 11:14
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Article on agendas of some HOF voters... Interesting that Cal Ripken has come closest, but nobody ever been unanimous. They are right, this is more screwed up than the BCS.
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| 63 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 4110481415
Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 14:27
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Maddux should find his way up that list of highest % of votes when he gets his chance.
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| 64 | barilko6
ID: 57042139
Wed, Jan 14, 2009, 19:21
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somehow Post 61 didn't include this:
And the fact he played 6 seasons in a park that can help hitters (Wrigley), I think is more than outweighed by the 10+ years he played at Olympic Stadium, a terrible park for hitters.
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| 65 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Thu, Jan 15, 2009, 17:05
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That's captured in OPS+. Got anything else?
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