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Subject: 1993 Blue Jays: Best Team Ever?
Posted by: blue hen
- [8115717] Sun, Feb 15, 2009, 20:26
Despite the fact that they got lucky in the World Series, I think I am convinced that the 1993 Blue Jays might be the best team ever. Not in 1993, but in the careers of the players on the team. To wit:
The Best: Rickey Henderson, Paul Molitor, Roberto Alomar, Jack Morris, Carlos Delgado
The Next: Dave Stewart, Al Leiter, Shawn Green, Tony Fernandez, John Olerud
The Rest: Duane Ward, Joe Carter, Pat Hentgen, Todd Stottlemyre, Mike Timlin, Alfredo Griffin, Pat Borders, Devon White
It might not be too top heavy, but it's definitely deep. Any competitors?
In 1992, Dave Winfield, Jeff Kent, Kelly Gruber, Jimmy Key, Dave Stieb, David Wells, David Cone, and Dave Weathers are added, and Stewart, Henderson, Green, Delgado, and Molitor are removed. Is that team better? Note that these weren't all together: Cone and Kent were traded for each other.
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1 | Perm Dude
ID: 161441518 Sun, Feb 15, 2009, 20:28
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1927 New York Yankees?
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2 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 570422522 Sun, Feb 15, 2009, 21:16
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only 2 hall of famers...
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3 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 570422522 Sun, Feb 15, 2009, 21:23
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1928, 1931-33 NYY had 9 future hall of famers
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4 | Razor
ID: 56038210 Sun, Feb 15, 2009, 21:42
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The Yankees team that won 114 games was the best team I've ever seen. Only featured 2 or 3 Hall of Famers, though.
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5 | Perm Dude
ID: 161441518 Sun, Feb 15, 2009, 22:00
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Well, if you are talking about the team with the most Hall of Famers that is one thing. But that 1927 New York Yankees squad was the best team in baseball history.
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6 | blue hen
ID: 8115717 Sun, Feb 15, 2009, 22:23
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I prefer the 1998 version, but I think you're missing the point. Jeff Kent long before he was a star, Carlos Delgado and Shawn Green for brief moments... the amount of "next tier" players is pretty impressive. Henderson, Molitor, Alomar, and Morris are all pretty legitimate HOF candidates even before you get to 4 time 20 game winner Dave Stewart or 400 homer man Carter.
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7 | Perm Dude
ID: 161441518 Sun, Feb 15, 2009, 22:36
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I dunno--the 1995 Cleveland Indians squad had some pretty good ones too. Thome, Manny, Omar, Belle, Lofton, Sandy Alomar, Murray, Giles.
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8 | Seattle Zen
ID: 201521511 Mon, Feb 16, 2009, 00:04
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The fact you had Al Leiter in the "Next" category and Joe Carter in the "Rest" makes me believe you are on a serious PCP bender.
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9 | filthy
ID: 388531216 Mon, Feb 16, 2009, 04:53
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Greatest assembly of talent perhaps? Probably not the greatest, but likely the best candidate from the early 90's.
I think blue hen misses Pat Gillick already. I know Jays' fans still do. The team will probably never be that good again, but as long as I can vaguely remember 92 and 93, I will be a happy baseball fan.
As amazing as it was to have Duane Ward setting up Tom Henke, I would pick the 93 team as the Blue Jays entry into the discussion of great teams. Any way you slice it, using 1993 stats, each players' career stats, or each players' career year, the 1993 Jays can be mentioned as historically great.
John Olerud flirted with .400 into the summer. Molitor and Alomar teamed with Olerud to acheive the top 3 averages in the AL that year. Add in Joe Carter, and you have 4 of the top 12 finishers in the 1993 MVP vote. Plus 89 steals and 2 Gold Gloves between Alomar and Devon White. They didn't even need Rickey Henderson, and he didn't even help much, but he definitely added huge value to the roster on paper. Add in Delgado and Green to the paper team, and that is a mighty impressive collection of bats, gloves and wheels.
As for arms, how about 3 of the top 7 vote getters in the 1993 Cy Young race. Duane Ward showed that he didn't even need Henke's help. Pat Hentgen wins 19 in his first year of starting. And Juan Guzman, the blue gloved wonder, in his 2nd full season, goes 14-3. The Jays rode this kid hard to get some rings, and his career likely paid the price. I think he deserves honorable mention, as he likely could've had a solid career if he weren't thrown directly into the fire at such a young age. Add in Jack Morris and Dave Stewart, who helped the paper roster more than the real roster, and you have got a solid pitching staff to go with a legendary offense.
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10 | Tree
ID: 1311551521 Mon, Feb 16, 2009, 08:38
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you can do this with a lot of teams.
the 1991 texas rangers... I-Rod Palmeiro Franco Juan Gonzalez Ruben Sierra Brian Downing Kevin Reimer Kevin Brown Nolan Ryan Jose Guzman Kenny Rogers Jeff Russell GOOSE GOSSAGE
an absolutely odd assortment of stars, future stars, guys who seemed destined for the Hall of Fame for a brief moment, guys who still are likely destined for the Hall of Fame, guys are *in* the Hall of Fame, guys who would win World Series elsewhere, and so on and so forth...
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11 | Toral
ID: 575542418 Mon, Feb 16, 2009, 10:23
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Under these rules if you look at the 1927 New York Yankees you're looking at the right time but at the wrong team.
The 1928 Philadelphia Athletics included Ty Cobb, Mickey Cochrane, Eddie Collins, Jimmie Foxx, Lefty Grove, Al Simmons, and Tris Speaker. 5 of the top 30 players of all time (using a list compiled in 2001) plus Simmons and Cochrane who rank #74 and #75.
Cobb and Speaker were finished by this rime, of course.
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12 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 014826271 Mon, Feb 16, 2009, 20:12
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HOF Johnny Bench Joe Morgan Pete Rose Tony Perez
Should Be HOF Dave Concepcion
All-Stars George Foster Ken Griffey Don Gullett
etc, etc and all in their primes-the only team in the same conversation as the '27 Yanks or '28 A's under any metric of "greatest"
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13 | astade
ID: 191134222 Mon, Feb 16, 2009, 20:57
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Re #12, slight correction: Pete Rose should be HOF ;)
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14 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 014826271 Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 09:37
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yeah-I meant HOF beyond a doubt caliber
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15 | blue hen Dude
ID: 710321114 Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 10:46
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Re 8: Weren't you fighting for Andre Dawson last month? Joe Carter?
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17 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 11:34
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Of course, unlike the 1993 Blue Jays, the 1928 As, 1991 Rangers and 1995 Indians are not World Series Champions.
Re the 1928 As, not only were Speaker and Cobb finished by then, but Eddie Collins was 41 and no longer productive. The As did win the World Series in the following two years, with the other 4 HOFers playing key roles; Cochrane, Foxx, Simmons and Grove.
the only team in the same conversation as the '27 Yanks or '28 A's under any metric of "greatest"
No disrespect to the Big Red Machine - they're certainly one of the all-time greats and absolutely belong in any discussion of such teams - but I think a lot of you Cincy fans go a touch overboard with regard to where they belong in the historical context.
Some more great teams:
1932 Yankees HOF Babe Ruth Lou Gehrig Bill Dickey Tony Lazzeri Joe Sewell Earl Combs Red Ruffing Lefty Gomez Herb Pennock
All Stars Ben Chapman Frankie Crosetti Johnny Allen
1934 Cards (The famous Gas House Gang) HOF Dizzy Dean Frankie Frisch Leo Durocher Joe Medwick Dazzy vance
All Stars Spud Davis Ripper Collins Pepper Martin Burgess Whitehead Bill Walker
1935 Tigers HOF Mickey Cochrane Hank Greenberg Charlie Gehringher Goose Goslin
All Stars Pete Fox Tommy Bridges Schoolboy Rowe Alvin Crowder Gee Walker
1938 Yankees (pick a year from 36 to 39 really): HOF Lou Gehrig Joe Dimaggio Bill Dickey Red Ruffing Joe Gordon Lefty Gomez
All Stars Red Rolfe Frankie Crosetti Tommy Henrich George Selkirk Myril Hoag Monte Pearson Spud Chandler
1955 Dodgers Jackie Robinson PeeWee Reese Hal Newcombe Duke Snider Roy Campanella (19 year-old) Sandy Koufax
All Stars Johnny Podres Gil Hodges Jim Gilliam Carl Erskine Carl Furillo Billy Loes
1958 Yankees HOF Yogi Berra Elston Howard Mickey Mantle Whitey Ford
All Stars Moose Skowron Gil McDougald Hank Bauer Tony Kubek Norm Siebern Bobby Richardson Bob Turley Johnny Kucks Ryne Duren
Other Notables Don Larson 42 year-old Enos Slaughter
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18 | Myboyjack Dude
ID: 014826271 Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 13:01
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No disrespect to the Big Red Machine - they're certainly one of the all-time greats and absolutely belong in any discussion of such teams - but I think a lot of you Cincy fans go a touch overboard with regard to where they belong in the historical context.
I'm not going to dispute that-I'm a homer-of course, hearing someone with the moniker MITH talk about going overboard in regard to historical context makes me pause....:)
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19 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 13:13
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Heh. Of course I had just that factor in mind when let slide the heading above Dave Concepcion's name in post 12... :)
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20 | blue hen Dude
ID: 710321114 Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 13:43
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Let's talk 1985 Yankees. Henderson's in. What heading does Mattingly get?
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21 | Mith
ID: 2894309 Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 13:50
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1985 Yankees HOF Ricky Henderson Dave Winfield Phil Neikro
if not for the haters Don Mattingly
All Stars Ron Guidry Willie Randolph Dave Righetti Don Baylor Ed Whitson Butch Wynegar
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22 | Seattle Zen
ID: 581241811 Wed, Feb 18, 2009, 13:03
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No, I was not fighting for Dawson last month. What I'm simply pointing out is that Joe Carter was much better than Al Leiter, it's not even close.
"Blah, blah, his OBP is abysmal, blah, blah."
Al Leiter had one great year, 1998. His current counterpart is Brad Penny.
Hell, if you use ERA+, which you are so fond of, Mike Timlin blows Al out of the water.
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