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0 Subject: 1993 Blue Jays: Best Team Ever?

Posted by: blue hen
- [8115717] Sun, Feb 15, 2009, 20:26

Despite the fact that they got lucky in the World Series, I think I am convinced that the 1993 Blue Jays might be the best team ever. Not in 1993, but in the careers of the players on the team. To wit:

The Best:
Rickey Henderson, Paul Molitor, Roberto Alomar, Jack Morris, Carlos Delgado

The Next:
Dave Stewart, Al Leiter, Shawn Green, Tony Fernandez, John Olerud

The Rest:
Duane Ward, Joe Carter, Pat Hentgen, Todd Stottlemyre, Mike Timlin, Alfredo Griffin, Pat Borders, Devon White

It might not be too top heavy, but it's definitely deep. Any competitors?

In 1992, Dave Winfield, Jeff Kent, Kelly Gruber, Jimmy Key, Dave Stieb, David Wells, David Cone, and Dave Weathers are added, and Stewart, Henderson, Green, Delgado, and Molitor are removed. Is that team better? Note that these weren't all together: Cone and Kent were traded for each other.
1Perm Dude
      ID: 161441518
      Sun, Feb 15, 2009, 20:28
1927 New York Yankees?
2ChicagoTRS
      ID: 570422522
      Sun, Feb 15, 2009, 21:16
only 2 hall of famers...
3ChicagoTRS
      ID: 570422522
      Sun, Feb 15, 2009, 21:23
1928, 1931-33 NYY had 9 future hall of famers
4Razor
      ID: 56038210
      Sun, Feb 15, 2009, 21:42
The Yankees team that won 114 games was the best team I've ever seen. Only featured 2 or 3 Hall of Famers, though.
5Perm Dude
      ID: 161441518
      Sun, Feb 15, 2009, 22:00
Well, if you are talking about the team with the most Hall of Famers that is one thing. But that 1927 New York Yankees squad was the best team in baseball history.
6blue hen
      ID: 8115717
      Sun, Feb 15, 2009, 22:23
I prefer the 1998 version, but I think you're missing the point. Jeff Kent long before he was a star, Carlos Delgado and Shawn Green for brief moments... the amount of "next tier" players is pretty impressive. Henderson, Molitor, Alomar, and Morris are all pretty legitimate HOF candidates even before you get to 4 time 20 game winner Dave Stewart or 400 homer man Carter.
7Perm Dude
      ID: 161441518
      Sun, Feb 15, 2009, 22:36
I dunno--the 1995 Cleveland Indians squad had some pretty good ones too. Thome, Manny, Omar, Belle, Lofton, Sandy Alomar, Murray, Giles.
8Seattle Zen
      ID: 201521511
      Mon, Feb 16, 2009, 00:04
The fact you had Al Leiter in the "Next" category and Joe Carter in the "Rest" makes me believe you are on a serious PCP bender.
9filthy
      ID: 388531216
      Mon, Feb 16, 2009, 04:53
Greatest assembly of talent perhaps? Probably not the greatest, but likely the best candidate from the early 90's.

I think blue hen misses Pat Gillick already. I know Jays' fans still do. The team will probably never be that good again, but as long as I can vaguely remember 92 and 93, I will be a happy baseball fan.

As amazing as it was to have Duane Ward setting up Tom Henke, I would pick the 93 team as the Blue Jays entry into the discussion of great teams. Any way you slice it, using 1993 stats, each players' career stats, or each players' career year, the 1993 Jays can be mentioned as historically great.

John Olerud flirted with .400 into the summer. Molitor and Alomar teamed with Olerud to acheive the top 3 averages in the AL that year. Add in Joe Carter, and you have 4 of the top 12 finishers in the 1993 MVP vote. Plus 89 steals and 2 Gold Gloves between Alomar and Devon White. They didn't even need Rickey Henderson, and he didn't even help much, but he definitely added huge value to the roster on paper. Add in Delgado and Green to the paper team, and that is a mighty impressive collection of bats, gloves and wheels.

As for arms, how about 3 of the top 7 vote getters in the 1993 Cy Young race. Duane Ward showed that he didn't even need Henke's help. Pat Hentgen wins 19 in his first year of starting. And Juan Guzman, the blue gloved wonder, in his 2nd full season, goes 14-3. The Jays rode this kid hard to get some rings, and his career likely paid the price. I think he deserves honorable mention, as he likely could've had a solid career if he weren't thrown directly into the fire at such a young age. Add in Jack Morris and Dave Stewart, who helped the paper roster more than the real roster, and you have got a solid pitching staff to go with a legendary offense.
10Tree
      ID: 1311551521
      Mon, Feb 16, 2009, 08:38
you can do this with a lot of teams.

the 1991 texas rangers...
I-Rod
Palmeiro
Franco
Juan Gonzalez
Ruben Sierra
Brian Downing
Kevin Reimer
Kevin Brown
Nolan Ryan
Jose Guzman
Kenny Rogers
Jeff Russell
GOOSE GOSSAGE

an absolutely odd assortment of stars, future stars, guys who seemed destined for the Hall of Fame for a brief moment, guys who still are likely destined for the Hall of Fame, guys are *in* the Hall of Fame, guys who would win World Series elsewhere, and so on and so forth...
11Toral
      ID: 575542418
      Mon, Feb 16, 2009, 10:23
Under these rules if you look at the 1927 New York Yankees you're looking at the right time but at the wrong team.

The 1928 Philadelphia Athletics included Ty Cobb, Mickey Cochrane, Eddie Collins, Jimmie Foxx, Lefty Grove, Al Simmons, and Tris Speaker. 5 of the top 30 players of all time (using a list compiled in 2001) plus Simmons and Cochrane who rank #74 and #75.

Cobb and Speaker were finished by this rime, of course.

12Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Mon, Feb 16, 2009, 20:12
HOF
Johnny Bench
Joe Morgan
Pete Rose
Tony Perez

Should Be HOF
Dave Concepcion

All-Stars
George Foster
Ken Griffey
Don Gullett


etc, etc and all in their primes-the only team in the same conversation as the '27 Yanks or '28 A's under any metric of "greatest"

13astade
      ID: 191134222
      Mon, Feb 16, 2009, 20:57
Re #12, slight correction:

Pete Rose should be HOF ;)

14Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 09:37
yeah-I meant HOF beyond a doubt caliber
15blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 10:46
Re 8: Weren't you fighting for Andre Dawson last month? Joe Carter?
17Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 11:34
Of course, unlike the 1993 Blue Jays, the 1928 As, 1991 Rangers and 1995 Indians are not World Series Champions.

Re the 1928 As, not only were Speaker and Cobb finished by then, but Eddie Collins was 41 and no longer productive. The As did win the World Series in the following two years, with the other 4 HOFers playing key roles; Cochrane, Foxx, Simmons and Grove.

the only team in the same conversation as the '27 Yanks or '28 A's under any metric of "greatest"

No disrespect to the Big Red Machine - they're certainly one of the all-time greats and absolutely belong in any discussion of such teams - but I think a lot of you Cincy fans go a touch overboard with regard to where they belong in the historical context.

Some more great teams:

1932 Yankees
HOF
Babe Ruth
Lou Gehrig
Bill Dickey
Tony Lazzeri
Joe Sewell
Earl Combs
Red Ruffing
Lefty Gomez
Herb Pennock

All Stars
Ben Chapman
Frankie Crosetti
Johnny Allen


1934 Cards (The famous Gas House Gang)
HOF
Dizzy Dean
Frankie Frisch
Leo Durocher
Joe Medwick
Dazzy vance

All Stars
Spud Davis
Ripper Collins
Pepper Martin
Burgess Whitehead
Bill Walker


1935 Tigers
HOF
Mickey Cochrane
Hank Greenberg
Charlie Gehringher
Goose Goslin

All Stars
Pete Fox
Tommy Bridges
Schoolboy Rowe
Alvin Crowder
Gee Walker


1938 Yankees (pick a year from 36 to 39 really):
HOF
Lou Gehrig
Joe Dimaggio
Bill Dickey
Red Ruffing
Joe Gordon
Lefty Gomez

All Stars
Red Rolfe
Frankie Crosetti
Tommy Henrich
George Selkirk
Myril Hoag
Monte Pearson
Spud Chandler


1955 Dodgers
Jackie Robinson
PeeWee Reese
Hal Newcombe
Duke Snider
Roy Campanella
(19 year-old) Sandy Koufax

All Stars
Johnny Podres
Gil Hodges
Jim Gilliam
Carl Erskine
Carl Furillo
Billy Loes


1958 Yankees
HOF
Yogi Berra
Elston Howard
Mickey Mantle
Whitey Ford

All Stars
Moose Skowron
Gil McDougald
Hank Bauer
Tony Kubek
Norm Siebern
Bobby Richardson
Bob Turley
Johnny Kucks
Ryne Duren

Other Notables
Don Larson
42 year-old Enos Slaughter
18Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 13:01
No disrespect to the Big Red Machine - they're certainly one of the all-time greats and absolutely belong in any discussion of such teams - but I think a lot of you Cincy fans go a touch overboard with regard to where they belong in the historical context.

I'm not going to dispute that-I'm a homer-of course, hearing someone with the moniker MITH talk about going overboard in regard to historical context makes me pause....:)
19Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 13:13
Heh. Of course I had just that factor in mind when let slide the heading above Dave Concepcion's name in post 12... :)
20blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 13:43
Let's talk 1985 Yankees. Henderson's in. What heading does Mattingly get?
21Mith
      ID: 2894309
      Tue, Feb 17, 2009, 13:50
1985 Yankees
HOF
Ricky Henderson
Dave Winfield
Phil Neikro

if not for the haters
Don Mattingly

All Stars
Ron Guidry
Willie Randolph
Dave Righetti
Don Baylor
Ed Whitson
Butch Wynegar
22Seattle Zen
      ID: 581241811
      Wed, Feb 18, 2009, 13:03
No, I was not fighting for Dawson last month. What I'm simply pointing out is that Joe Carter was much better than Al Leiter, it's not even close.

"Blah, blah, his OBP is abysmal, blah, blah."

Al Leiter had one great year, 1998. His current counterpart is Brad Penny.

Hell, if you use ERA+, which you are so fond of, Mike Timlin blows Al out of the water.
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