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0 Subject: Hey Dave! They're talking about you....

Posted by: Donavan
- [422523014] Mon, Apr 13, 2009, 22:32

Look at this thread:

Discussion of Rotoguru

Comments?
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28Tree
      ID: 41371322
      Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 22:21
im totally confused by the argument. i mean, this info is available to anyone. so, why is there some disadvantage. it's just one of many tools available on the 'net...
29An Old Hippie
      ID: 522361721
      Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 22:24
To funny though. For the fun of it I typed TSN ownership numbers into google. We(this thread) is the 2nd listing
30An Old Hippie
      ID: 522361721
      Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 22:29
How does that happen? And on the next page is the link for the TSN forum. How did it get there?
31Balrog
      Dude
      ID: 02856618
      Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 23:12
If money's the issue, you're really off-base here. I'm pretty sure that RSF and Rotoguru aren't raking in big bucks off of TSN. In fact, it's probably the other way around.

You'd be more on track if you complained that TSN makes a fantasy game, then wants to charge you an extra $5/month for their Fantasy Source product. One must assume that if anybody has inside info into the hidden workings of the game, it would be the makers of the game itself, not somebody who simply uses the data that every other player has access to.
32Donavan
      ID: 422523014
      Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 23:14
Hippie....you have made valid opinions on many a subject here (and your writing is fine by the way) but exactly what is your argument of essense and what do you hope to accomplish?

Is it simply that TSN has NOT nor WILL NOT advertise rotoguru.com on its website? If so, I think you'd have to bring it up with the PTB'S over there cuz I sure don't think Guru's going to be buying an ad there anytime soon. ;) Yes, there may be an advantage from using Guru's toys, but is it our fault? Or Dave's fault? Or even TSN's fault? It is what it is.

People have been talking about this site since the times of smallworld and I'm guessing there have been numerous posts written this year on the TSN message boards that have pointed the uneducated this way. But, if they don't want to check out the info...

Now, however, if your argument relates to amount of fantasy baseball assistance that is freely available here, well then, that's a horse of a different color isn't it?

FWIW, from what I can gather, Mr. Hall's contributions in anything fantasy-wise have been underappreciated by many at TSN but I suspect he sleeps well at night nevertheless. He is doing what could be done by anybody else (provided they had his brains, his stamina, his checkbook, his tools, his freedom of life style, and of course, his ravishing good looks.) Ok, maybe not so much the latter. LOL (Sorry Dave!) Those that have made major contributions in the past (RSF, Bad Poet,etc.) are to be commended as well.

What is known is that there used to be a small army of fantasy fanatics that visited this site and posted regularly, especially during the Smallworld days, but due to the mismanagement of many at TSN and other underlying factors, this game has changed---and not for the better.

What does this mean for the future? Hard to say. I'm just very grateful that I have found this site and I will continue to let people know about it.



33ChicagoTRS
      ID: 591302518
      Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 23:19
OH #22...your poker reference is good but a bit wrong...rotoguru does not show you the cards it just organizes the publicly available data and allows you to make better decisions. The exact same thing is available for online poker. 3rd party pay poker sites mine data and collect info for all online players...plug in a players screen name and look up detailed stats about a players play. Others have heads-up displays that automatically display info on every player at the table. Many individual players use pokertracker to mine all of their own and opponents to build up their own DB on players. None of this is free...and none of it is advertised on the sites...but it is a huge advantage to those who know where to get the data and know how to use it.

http://www.pokerlistings.com/
http://www.pokertracker.com/

The thing about rotoguru is it is all publicly available info on TSN...this site is basically just a collection of smart people who analyze the data and share the results. There is nothing magic or insidious about it. If an individual or individuals were motivated enough they could duplicate everything that is done here on their own. So I do not think it is an unfair advantage or cheating. Plus the fact this place is free and anyone can come here and get the same data.

I found this site initially by googling something like "TSN strategy forum"...I did not need to search for ownership numbers or anything like that...I was just looking for smart people that would give me an advantage or at least take some of the work out of it and maybe I also could contribute. Especially in the Small World days this site was more active with strategy talk and game theory.

Personally I think this is probably the best forum I have ever been involved with as far as there is never any drama here. Never really a need for much moderation. I think the average age of the people posting is a bit older than a typical forum. There are many very bright people associated with this board and the knowledge available definitely does not stop at just fantasy games.
34An Old Hippie
      ID: 522361721
      Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 23:42
#31

Where in my last post did money ever come up? I just can't see the word money in any part of it.
Honest I really don't see it. Quote me on it here please. From that post.

Money came up earlier with the contribution that rfs to see the ownership numbers back in 2006.
That was the only time money was almost mentioned.

All I am saying is that if you use a sites data (which this one does) it should be advertised on the TSN site. Where all managers have an equal chance of seeing it. If they then don't use it so it goes. That's it. Plain and simple. If they don't use it that becomes their problem. If they don't know it exists then it is a resource that TSN indirectly is supplying by letting someone mine their data. And that doesn't keep the field of play level.

Why is this so hard to understand? I am in favor of sharing all and any information about resources that TSN has. When you use TSN data you become a resource. And sure this is rotoguru.com is free but if you don't know it exists what difference does that make?

And I did do the search on TSN ownership data to see if rotoguru.com came up on google. It didn't at least not for ownership numbers...maybe something else but not that.
35An Old Hippie
      ID: 522361721
      Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 23:51
Donovon there has been a lot of posting on the boards and I have done some of it also. But then according to most there only a small segment reads the boards. So going by that contention only a small segment gets to know about here. And the year before TSN started to limit data to 50 teams I did a check to see the last time it had been mentioned. I went back through 2o pages of posts and never found it.

Maybe the Smallworld days were better. I didn't play there then. The first time was in 2003. Played Basic Baseball. I was totally lost. Even then I was a tradeaholic. All I can compare is the time I have been there
36An Old Hippie
      ID: 522361721
      Tue, Apr 14, 2009, 23:56
Oh and when I say advertised I don't mean that Dave and anyone else should be buying space. Just a notice somewhere prominent that people would see. Sorry about the confusion with that.
37blue hen
      ID: 8115717
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 00:05
Welcome back, Ira. It's good to see you posting again. It's 85 million, by the way.

This is a pretty ridiculous discussion. In case you're wondering, I built tools for probables and schedules that several gurupies use. They are freely available, if you can find them.
38dpr
      ID: 552411820
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 03:17
Old Hippie: Give us the solution you would like to see.

I bet it isnt feasible or could be even further taken advantage of.
39J
      Leader
      ID: 049346417
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 09:38
LOL BH!!!!!
40KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 721308
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 10:06
Just a notice somewhere prominent that people would see. Sorry about the confusion with that.

I wonder if I would be able to be listed, for free, since I provide TSN-related products that could, arguably, provide a benefit to those that don't know about it.

Free advertising for everybody! Woohoo!!!
41rockafellerskank
      ID: 2511552911
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 12:09
re #34 Money came up earlier with the contribution that rfs to see the ownership numbers back in 2006.
That was the only time money was almost mentioned.

I sure to get a lot of credit [free advertising] for that "thingy"
42blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 12:17
Since people may happen upon this thread, I want to mention that Kafenatid is a really good product. If you'd like to have a slow draft, Kafenatid is about as good as it gets.

I know, I know. Free advertising for KKB. But I use his product and am quite pleased with it.
43An Old Hippie
      ID: 522361721
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 12:50
So maybe it wouldn't be feasible but just put a link under tools. Doesn't seem all that complicated to me but then I am not a programmer. Places have links that take you to other sites.


Guess I am discussing a different idea then all of you. I was looking more at increasing competition by giving everyone a chance all the data and the tools available here and at other sites. If people could use the tools available here and didn't so it goes.

Here is an apples/oranges comparison. I have always loved fishing. Have been fishing for around 50 years now and have become fairly good at it. Won a few tournaments here and there. When fishing with people I have always tried to help them find technique or tell them about a better way of presentation. Share my knowledge with them about something I love.

Now for the oranges part. I love and enjoy the TSN games. And I found this site on my own and I want to share it because it would help make people better. Blue Hen and RSF have written wonderful programs to help people compete. So why not give people the chance to use it?

A few years back I argued about the supression of ownership data unless TSN made it available for everyone. Most people disagreed. The reasons were kind of silly to me. Managers could find the information in The TSN boards. My point was first you needed to know about the boards. Then you needed to know that an outside source had the numbers. Thirdly you need the patience to find a post that even told about the site.

Then the discussion went we really don't need the numbers because as vets there is a feel to how many people owned a player. What the ownership was and who had room to grow. At the time I couldn't refute it as how do you refute a feeling. But the next year when the numbers weren't available the same managers were the ones crying that a valuable tool had been taken away from them.

All I want is to give everyone the chance to do so something better. Maybe not have 10 dead teams out of 20 by the ASB because people quit out of frustration on how badly they played. Show them there are tools to help them.

Just realized that all of you are right. The data is readily available to everyone. All people can write the code to get the data. And no one really needs help in aquiring the data or organizing it so it means something. Or having someone teach them how the game should be played. Each and everyone here wrote their own code and came with a God given ability to play.

Thanks BH and RSF I wasn't one of those people who didn't need help and you supplied what I needed. Might have been easier if it hadn't taken me a couple of years to find it and how to play the game though.
44Khahan
      ID: 391582715
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 15:20
increasing competition by giving everyone a chance all the data and the tools available here and at other sites

This I don't disagree with. I think it would be great recognition for Dave and everybody who has put in years of hard work to make this site what it is if TSN publicly acknowledged them on their game.

However, that is very different than saying that the people who use this board have an unfair advantage because of 'secret info.' As stated many times, the info here is not a secret. Its a public board that anybody can use.

yes, it would be great for tsn to link rotoguru. however it is not necessary for 'competitive fairness.'
45blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 15:26
Oh, I help anyone who asks. Except people who complain or have handles like "Yankees Rule" or "An Old Hippie."

You know how I found out about these boards? In 1998, my first season of playing, I was so all consumed by the game, that I searched and searched for an edge, until I found one. If you're not consumed enough to find an edge, you don't deserve an edge.
46Perm Dude
      ID: 18351159
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 15:26
I don't think TSN would want to encourage direct links, since it makes their product (and accompanying tools) appear to be less "value added."

But I agree with K: This site is not secret, and it is a testament to the free hard work put in by Guru and others to make those tools available, for free, for anyone who pops in.
47RecycledSpinalFluid
      Dude
      ID: 204401122
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 15:48
An Old Hippie: "I was looking more at increasing competition by giving everyone a chance all the data and the tools available here and at other sites"

Definitely agree that they should have always provided the ownership numbers. Raw and un-TSNified.

As for the other tools...can't say I agree with that. Should they make similar ones, sure, but just because someone makes a better cart, doesn't mean TSN is obligated to hook up the horse. Fair is fair to a point...If I'm competive, I'm going to seek out the best tools.
48weykool
      ID: 2842717
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 16:31
Hippie:

Props to you for swinging into the jungle armed with only a 1" pocket knife.

Having TSN link to this site would be a bad thing.
Would you advocate that they have a link to every site that might give players additional information?
There are thousands of sites and links that they would need to post and then good luck sifting through all of the bad information to find anything useful.
The thing about RFS "charging" for ownership numbers is I dont think there is a minimum amount that needs to be donated to become a Gurupie.
Anyone who complained about this site charging for ownership numbers and is too cheap to make a donation is probably someone not worth listening to.
This is a moot point because TSN already caved to the complainers and decided to offer the numbers to everyone. (Now if we can only get them for the current baseball season)

It seems to me your argument should not be with this site for being too good but with TSN for not making the same tools available on their site.

On your poker analogy....Players that read poker books on how to play A-K are going to have decided advantage over players who dont take the time to read and get better and decide to go all in with 7-2 just because they are sooted.
49Balrog
      Dude
      ID: 02856618
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 16:42
TSN has the ownership numbers for baseball on the "Finacial" view of the player lists.
50barilko6
      ID: 23217297
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 16:50
I think it all breaks down to google. If I am ever involved with something that costs money, or something in which I can win money, such as a TSN league, you can better believe I will be pounding google looking for ways to better my knowledge and chance to win.

Google is available to everyone. So is this site.

51An Old Hippie
      Sustainer
      ID: 02106243
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 18:17
Yes Google is available to everyone. Try searching for rotoguru.com. I did. I could come up with 2 links to threads but this was one of them. So I tried different search terms. Ended up salary cap market based fantasy baseball strategy should work as that was my fourth try. Well guess what it didn't turn up rotoguru.com.

Weykool a 1 ' knife sometimes does work though. First I don't quite understand why people get the impression I am down on this site. I have never once said that I am. I am against TSN letting the numbers be used here. Which is totally different then being against here.

Explain to me what the difference is between charging someone 5 dollars or a 100 dollars for something? The only difference is 95 dollars because you are still charging.

As for the being cheap part that I can't answer. I have donated to Dave's site and with your statement I can be sure you have. But only Dave can say how many others have donated. If the others haven't donated does that make their opinions any less valid?

Actually the poker analogy is very good. Both you and I can go out and read books about hold em. We are on equal footing there unless one of us had bought a bad book. But if only I had a program that I had written that kept track of hands and tendencies and you didn't who would have the advantage. Also you had no idea such a thing existed. Right or wrong? Now suppose that you didn't know that it existed would you go and search for why you couldn't win? And I shared my data that I collected from this private web site with a group of people. The site was free but we just didn't spread it. Which till this year I very seldom had seen mention of rotoguru.com over at TSN. Still think the scenero doesn't fit?

Now BH I had nothing against you. In the past I enjoyed reading your posts. I said both you and RSF had written very good programs. Just scroll up if you missed it. The problem comes in the minute you don't want to help somebody. Doesn't that destroy all the arguements that the site is here to help everybody? Through tools and exchange of information.

Now for a personal opinion on why I could be down on this site. You are one opf the prime reasons that TSN games are dying. Sure they have done a lousy job there but I would bet more managers through the years have left because of people from here.

As an example I will use basketball. I checked the top 100 managers and teams a few weeks ago.
Anyone care to guess out of the top 100 teams how many different managers there were? 29

Now anyone care to guess of those 29 managers had a single team? 9

Now this part I can't prove because I can't access the data. But you all think real hard about this question. How many of those 100 teams are in a league that was picked out? That manager looked at the league before staying there to make sure that no one would be competition.

I was in a league that was advertised for first and second year players. Anyone care to guess who will win it? Blooki He didn't do anything wrong as the person who set up the league didn't know enough to password protect it. But does that make Blooki right for being in it? Not really in my opinion.

How often does that happen? How many managers quit because they can't compete?

You have your own thread here made last spring that goes into great detail about TSN problems. Some of your own fellow groupies laid partial blame on people from here.

So it goes

It has been fun and thanks for the fish
52An Old Hippie
      Sustainer
      ID: 02106243
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 21:07
Okay this time I cheated and typed rotoguru into Google. If I was playing at Sporting News I still wouldn't have come here. The site is an authority on Smallworld and Lycos games. Wouldn't be all that helpful would it?
53blue hen
      ID: 8115717
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 23:10
I was one of those top 100 with a single team. Two years in a row, actually. And I'm the one person who stands to gain from the "TSN game falling apart." But that's not the point. This site is GOOD for TSN (and for sports) and anyone who says otherwise is... well, wrong. Your main disadvantage you have is that you are an idiot. That's not a blind attack; there is plenty of evidence right here in this thread. I suspect that's also why you are a terrible TSN player and haven't figured out how TSN's game works.

Rather than posting here, I recommend reading the TSN rules and maybe buy a rotowire subscription and try to get better.
54An Old Hippie
      Sustainer
      ID: 02106243
      Wed, Apr 15, 2009, 23:39
Maybe a lot of my finishes are from living in a state that SN couldn't pay in. Always had quit a month before the season ended. Last fall football was a tad different I went into the hospital nov. 4th and got out Dec 14th. Try finishing well while missing 6 weeks. Miss the first 6 weeks in basketball and we will see how well you play.

Also have you run out of "facts" now that you resort to name calling?

See Weykool an 1" knife is more then enough.
55dpr
      ID: 552411820
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 00:08
Your proposed solution to your "problem" was that TSN create a link yet you are ranting to the people here not to TSN.

Your understanding of the analogies that others have brought against you is comical.
56An Old Hippie
      Sustainer
      ID: 02106243
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 00:36
As for how good this site is for SN look at the thread titled "the future of TSN Ultimate". It is in basketball page 7 about halfway down.Just take the time to read it..pay close attention around post 50 through 65.

So tell me what have I been so stupid at. I have stated facts. I didn't resort to name calling. I didn't go wildly out on limbs of fantasy ideas.

I tried the idea of Google and that didn't point me here unless I wanted to learn how to play Smallworld. Well guess what a manager starting this year doesn't know that Smallworld and SN are the same place. So that would make it real easy to come here.

I spent time going through the threads looking for other groupies who expressed the same ideas that I expressed for basketball.

I stayed on one topic and didn't try to branch it into things that didn't pertain. Like the idea that buying a fantasy mag would help with the SN salary cap game. Their own fantasy mag doesn't even do that.

Most of you have been here a very long time. That is good as usually on the net it doesn't happen. You have developed a very strong sense of community. But you have also developed a sense of entitlement. That you deserve all the advantages when basically your best programs were written by you but need to mine data from SN. Whether SN gives it's permission or turns a blind eye. Don't for one moment think that everyone can do it. Cause they can't plain and simple.You let anyone use the data for free but finding here has become a trifle harder then 10 years ago. Going a step further I'll bet the majority of the people that wrote in this thread can't get the data on their own. Anyone want to take that bet?

So what was I so stupid about?



57Donavan
      ID: 422523014
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 00:44
You're doing fine Hippie....Don't let one wisearse ruin your night. I appreciate the banter and perhaps it will lead to something good for both sites.
58dpr
      ID: 552411820
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 01:06
I am not sure what your point with the google is. Is that everyone doesnt have equal access to this site? What if it was posted on yahoo sports? more people would have access but certainly not everyone goes there. So I dont get the relevance because even if it was the first search result you would still say it is unfair.

I called you out a bit on your understanding of analogies so I will go into more detail I guess. With the poker book one. You comment this is a good one. Both are tools which can help you with the game. Both are tools that everyone has a chance to use. We agree so far. Then you say that these boards are unfair and poker books arent because everyone can get them, completely missing your hypocrisy.

Also I have no idea how you can claim that fantasy magazines and the various services which are out there do not help with this game. maybe it is just because there is no way you can clamor for all there removal?

Lastly if you want no one to have an advantage, how does one win?
59Khahan
      ID: 391582715
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 10:29
Hippie,

Please do one thing for me to support your argument: Find one thread or one place where somebody on this site takes any action to specifically keep people from finding out about the site or the information here.

60barilko6
      ID: 41336169
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 10:37
Sense of entitlement? I don't see that at all. I see a public forum in which ideas are shared, ideas which are then available to ALL people. Its not like this website goes out of its way to hide its forum.

As for my analogy of using a fantasy magazine, I wasn't limiting their use to the TSN game, but to fantasy sports in general. People use a variety of vehicles to give themselves an advantage in all walks of life...whether it be fantasy sports, poker, stocks, etc. Its not insider trading if the information has been made public and is available to all those who look or ask hard enough.

Sure Dave does the work to comb through these stats, but he isn't the only one who could do that, anyone can do that. He posts it here for all to read, its not his fault that his medium isn't as loud as some of the other forums or websites out there.

This argument is making less and less sense for me the longer it gets.

61Balrog
      Dude
      ID: 02856618
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 10:46
Come on guys, Hippie is obviously trolling. I present as evidence the "55 million" reference in post 15. Also there is his contention that someone who knew to type "rotoguru.com" into Google would not be able to find the site (can you say "Address Bar"?).
63blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 10:53
Stupid things posted in this thread

No I didn't confuse anything. If you were just beginning to play at TSN would you know that the data you were looking for was located at some other site. Whether it was here or at bad poets?

Yes, if you put effort into it. If you didn't put effort in, you don't deserve anything. Life isn't a free ride.

Then I must be extremely stupid. Because it never dawned to me that to find ownership numbers from TSN I would need to go to another site.

No argument here.

While you were quoting why not the part about the "contribution" to this site to see ownership numbers for basketball. That kind of puts it into the exclusive bunch doesn't it? You don't contribute you don't get the numbers. You "contribute" you get to see them.

Actually, you contribute so the person who is providing them can afford to host them. Life isn't a free ride.

Fine you can crunch the numbers and write the programs. Not everyone can. Or maybe everyone here can.

Most people here cannot write code. But they do know how to read. Are you blaming the people who write the code or who use the code? I agree; the game is much more fun when you randomly choose players rather than trying to make an informed decision.

First if TSN knew about the mining they were directly giving their product away. That just makes TSN guilty of running a fantasy site where all people don't get the same information.

Correct. I don't see even a little bit of a problem with that.

Here try this one. You go play at a poker site and you lose and lose to a few people. But you can't figure out why just some people beat you. What you don't know is that they have an added advantage. Someone is getting the value of your cards and telling a couple of your opponent. Fair or not?

If you are playing a game and people are cheating, and you continue to play, you deserve to lose.

Before TSN closed down this practice(outside mining) there was no information about ownership numbers at TSN.

That's incorrect.

Balrog have you ever heard the expression comparing apples to oranges? If you haven't and someone tells you about it someday think about your example and then try to fit it the rest of the thread.

Do you really think anyone reading this thread hasn't heard that expression? If so, that's a stupid assumption.

So maybe it wouldn't be feasible but just put a link under tools. Doesn't seem all that complicated to me but then I am not a programmer. Places have links that take you to other sites.

I agree. TSN should have more links to RotoGuru.

Here is an apples/oranges comparison. I have always loved fishing. Have been fishing for around 50 years now and have become fairly good at it.

There are a lot of things wrong with this. However, I will focus on the fact that this is not an apples to oranges comparison.

Okay now on a lighter note I remember reading somewhere on here that you should try and lock up a position at certain levels of FV. I think the first was 55 million but I can't remember the order that was mention.

It was stupid the first time. And the tenth.

Blue Hen and RSF have written wonderful programs to help people compete. So why not give people the chance to use it?

Good idea. Isn't that what we've done? Oh, and that's like saying Albert Pujols and Endy Chavez are both good baseball players.


Heh, I'm bored now. I'll stop feeding the troll.




64Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 13:45
Figure I might as well weigh in here, as there are some additional points that could be made - and some historical perspective.

Back when I started playing the Smallworld games, the data presentation at the SW site was [bill_walton]horr-rr-rr-i-ble[/bill_walton]. I don't recall what they did have, but I decided that if I was going to complete, I needed data organized much better that it was otherwise available. So I imported data from multiple sources, including price data from SW and stats data from somewhere else (I believe at the time, I used Yahoo for the latter.) I blended the info together into a spreadsheet, calculated a few ratios, and sifted and sorted to meet my needs. As I began to develop RotoGuru, I extracted and published a variety of sorted data from that spreadsheet. I also created the pages of daily player details. Not elegant, but a start. Smallworld was certainly aware of my exploits - once RotoGuru was started, I even trekked down to NYC to meet with some of the people there. This led to a close working relationship, and I wrote a number of strategy articles in the early years that were published on the SW site - with links to my site as my only compensation.

Over time, a lot of information (and collection methods thereof) was refined, and the presentation formats were improved, resulting in the "sortable stats" reports that continue to exist today. I've continue to tweak those, adding new information in various sports (such as eligible game info and opposing pitcher data for baseball). I also provided a centralized set of links to other sites (RotoWire, RotoWorld, etc.), just to facilitate the ability to research players.

The Assimilator was another early invention designed to help organize and plan roster management.

Over the years, SW and TSN gradually upgraded their reporting capabilities, first with sortable stats reports that replicated much of what I already had done. They also adopted a schedule format that used the same color coding scheme (for hoops). They did so with my permission, and also provided an attributive link to RotoGuru.

I'm quite sure that many of the features at the TSN site were prompted by work I did here. Even their message board was started after I had developed a successful one here. And the current framework at their baseball site adopts some "assimilator-like" capabilities. So while it may look like I have copied a lot of the material from their site, the reverse is probably more accurate historically.

In fact, I suspect that it was the development of the Ownership data here that ultimately led TSN to decide to publish that information there. Without the efforts of Gurupies like Richard (who oldtimers will recall) and RSF (and subsequently others at the TSN forum), I doubt if TSN would be presenting that information today. So I'm also pretty sure that the development of data at RotoGuru has helped TSN improve the format of data that they currently produce.

Would I benefit from more overt links from the TSN site? It would probably increase the quantity of traffic, but not necessarily the quality. There have been a number of instances over the years when RotoGuru was highlighted at the TSN site, and some of the increased traffic that resulted was not always beneficial to the quality of the forum discussion. Consequently, I have not been avidly pushing them to provide more links. To an extent, I consider the ability of people to find me as a sort of screening process. If you are clever enough and motivated enough to find the site, welcome. But I'm more concerned about the quality of the dialogue that takes place here than I am about the quantity of posters.

TSN management continues to respect the RotoGuru site and community. They know that many (maybe most) of their hard-core customers are active users of this site, and that if they chose to throttle my site's ability to continue to provide data in RotoGuru-friendly ways, they would drive away some of their own customer base. So they have continued to be outwardly supportive of what I do.

I continue to believe that RotoGuru provides a valuable benefit to TSN, and vice versa. I know that when I post anything at the TSN forum, it attracts some resentful and belligerent responses, so I generally avoid posting over there. For that matter, I don't spend much time there at all, as the general tenor of most of the conversations isn't productive for my needs. I know that some of the resentment centered on the availability of ownership data for GuruPatrons-only at one time. TSN was aware of it, and although they asked me about it, they never asked me to stop it - even though I told them that I would honor their request if asked. So it's not as though I was doing something behind their backs.

Over the years, I've culled together data from a variety of games - some now defunct - and integrated that data into a common framework that simplified management of various salary cap games on a somewhat consistent basis. I've always done so with the explicit awareness of the target sites, and they have always been supportive of my exploits - some with direct public links to my site (e.g., Swirve and PSC), and some without. But I'm not accessing data that isn't otherwise publicly available - even though I am sometimes presenting that data in a way that isn't available at the host site - with discussion that may be qualitatively different than what's available on the host forums. To me, that's where the RotoGuru value-added comes from.

65Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 14:01
BTW, I'm not done with this discussion... I just ran out of gas, and have to leave soon to run some errands. But I will follow up later with some perspective on the RotoGuru value proposition, and the financial considerations in managing a site like this. Stay tuned...
66Khahan
      ID: 391582715
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 14:06
there you have it Old Hippie, from the man himself. He figured out a way to interpret the info on the smallworld/tsn game to a distinct advantage. Rather than keeping this new data review to himself....he shared it publicly. Isn't that exactly what you are complaining should have happened?

Dave could have easily kept his secrets to himself and dominated year and year out. Instead he decided to share and make the game as whole a much more competitive one.
67Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 15:38
Actually, contrary to Khahan’s supportive but misguided rejoinder in post 66, my decision to “give away” my data organization and strategy ideas wasn’t entirely altruistic.

First of all, when I started the site, I didn’t even realize that SW paid prizes for the game! So, if I thought I could dominate the game and collect the top prizes for myself, that wasn’t even an alternative in my decision set at the time.

Secondly, even if I was aware of the prize potential, I was hoping to develop RotoGuru into a business, and I believed that the best way to promote that business was to give away my advice and data-organization in order to attract the widest possible audience. If the advice was sound and the data worthwhile, maybe there would be an opportunity to charge for it in the future. But at the time, almost all sites were free, paid for by advertising – at rates that were unsupportable (as it turned out). So at the time, even after I learned of the prize potential, I thought that giving the site away would be financially more lucrative that trying to charge for anything.

Meanwhile, I did end up winning SW Hoops that first season, and that didn’t hurt my credibility.

The site grew from there, expanding to support for several other games as well. But it didn’t take many years before the advertising bubble burst, and not only was the prospect of meaningful advertising revenue out the window, but much of the revenues that had already been accrued turned out to be uncollectable. So at that point, I had to decide if and how to continue to financially support the site. At the time, annual operating costs were in the $6,000-7,000 range (assuming that I was willing to “work” for free), and while some sites were beginning to move to a paid subscription basis, I wasn’t convinced that the approach was optimal for RotoGuru. Instead, I decided to implement the voluntary “GuruPatron” donation program. Imagine my surprise when in that very first year of the program, voluntary donations totaled almost $10,000!

Even at that level, it represented a decrease from what I thought the site had been generating from advertising – and so I had to decide whether this could actually turn into a business, or would remain a “full time pastime”. I decided to stay the course and see what developed.

Over the ensuing years, costs generally declined, but so did revenues. Fortunately, they stayed in relative proportion, so I was always able to marginally cover costs, earning a net “profit” that equated to about 50 cents an hour for my time. So be it. I enjoyed it, and this gig offered the ancillary benefits of camaraderie and the ability to develop and maintain fantasy support tools that I would have wanted to use anyway. From time to time I tinkered with ideas to charge for certain services, or to restrict certain features to GuruPatrons only, but I seldom pursued those for anything meaningful. I thought that the RotoGuru community was generally better served by being as open as possible. And I still do.

But make no mistake – this enterprise has a cost. And although the financial cost is now less than half of its original burden, the real cost is the time I spend working on the site. For more than 11 years, I’ve spent several hours almost every single morning collecting, assembling, and producing stats for public consumption. During the rest of the day, it’s hard to know what time is spent on site duties, and what is spent on personal team management – there’s a lot of overlap – but suffice it to say that few of you would – or even could – devote the requisite hours to this, both the number of hours and the daily regularity of it. (Think of the old “Time to make the doughnuts…” commercial. That’s me, only “time to process the stats….”)

I’ve long since come to grips with the notion that RotoGuru is not a viable commercial enterprise – at least, not at the level of effort that I’m willing to expend. But I’m blessed to be financially capable of spending most of my time on something that essentially breaks even. Would I continue to do this if donations failed to cover marginal costs? I don’t know. I haven’t had to make that call yet. But if that happened because revenues were drying up, and revenues were drying up because there just weren’t that many people who found value in the site anymore, then maybe I would. In any event, I don’t think that’s an imminent decision to be made – although donations so far this year are only barely covering costs once again.

All along, I have tried to manage the site to provide something of value added. I know that much of the data and information is available elsewhere. But if I can assemble and present it in a helpful way, that’s value. If I can integrate some additional information, and perhaps some ways of interpreting data, that’s value. If I can provide a forum where people feel like they belong to a something unique and useful, that’s value. If I can introduce people to other games, and other ways of playing games, that’s value. If I can organize games and leagues that offer a more thoughtful way of participating in fantasy sports, that’s value. Not everyone will find everything to be of value. Some people (probably many) will find nothing of value. But somehow, enough people have found enough value here to voluntarily provide enough support to keep it available for themselves as well as for those who decide not to support it financially.

That said, would it be wrong or unfair if I decided to restrict some information, or some strategies, or some programming, solely to those users who would pay for it? I don’t think so. Plenty of sites take publicly available data and publish it in ways that adds value – and if there is enough value added, people are willing to pay for that presentation. There’s nothing inherently wrong or unfair with that. I pay subscriptions to other sites for information that is helpful to me in managing my various teams. Most of that information is publicly available for free, but not organized or collectable in an efficient manner. So I’m will to pay for those services. And if I produce some information that might be helpful - or provide a competitive advantage – to people who play games at other sites, then why shouldn’t it be “for sale”.

Maybe the underlying ownership data was available at the TSN site for anyone who wanted to slug through the collection process. But to do that required time, knowledge, and resources. If I – or anyone – decided to devote the necessary skills to collecting that data and presenting it in a useful way, why shouldn’t that be compensable? Sure, TSN could have provided it in a similar fashion for no extra cost, and if they had, then there would have been no reason for anyone to pay for it elsewhere. But they didn’t (until recently). And assembling and presenting that data in a useful format added value. So I don’t apologize at all for RSF’s well-intentioned initiative to produce the information and provide it only to those who were willing to ante up a modest donation. And I know that some did donate to the site just for that purpose – some for as little as $1. It wasn’t a significant revenue inducement, but it did help to highlight the concept that a lot of time, effort, and know-how is needed to produce something like that, and if no one else is producing it for free, then maybe it is worth something after all.
68RecycledSpinalFluid
      Dude
      ID: 204401122
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 19:50
I sure am glad to know that one of the primary beefs is a result of something I did. :)

Trying to think of what "value adds" I've done here...man its been a long trip.
  • Hoops ownership
  • Revamped/rebuilt/reconstructed the ownership spreadsheet and added additional "post" makers.
  • Hockey ownership - despite never playing it.
  • In baseball, that "how'd your team do" silly phrase creator ('My team scored 140 SWPs from 8 players') back when SWPs weren't shown until late in night. This was a fun one. Also think I did this for hoops too.
  • The Probable Pitchers thing. Enjoyed this one too. Should revamp it. Not sure it'd be worth doing.
  • Hip Check (aka RSF's Gurupatron Player Info)
  • Enhanced Yahoo Boxscores for Hoops
I think theres some other things, but since I don't really play the TSN stuff anymore, I'm forgetting them. Also amazed at how little "new" stuff I've work on or thought to work up. Slowly weaning from this addiction.
69Seattle Zen
      ID: 113541617
      Thu, Apr 16, 2009, 22:43
The Probable Pitchers thing. Enjoyed this one too. Should revamp it. Not sure it'd be worth doing.

Definitely worth doing, it is a cool tool.
70An Old Hippie
      Sustainer
      ID: 02106243
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 03:27
Yes can say address bar and even use it. All the posts up above were stating that the way to rotoguru.com was to google it. It didn't work with a variety of phrases I used. On a couple I got to a forum thread but it wouldn't have gotten me here to read it. Then I had tried rotoguru.com just for the fun of it. I probably still wouldn't come here as it pertained to small world and lycos games. Some maybe when you all came here long Smallworld would be enough for you. Unfortunently someone just starting wouldn't know that Smallworld = SN.

Sorry if you all think I was complaining. I wasn't ever mad of what you had compared to SN. I was mad about the unfair advantage it gave people from here. So all I wanted a couple of years ago for SN to publish it. Thought that was fair. Everyone would have the chance to use it. I didn't care if RSF set up that "contribution" as a way to help Dave out. But then paying is paying and free is free.

And honestly your tools have gone down hill a little. Slowly but surely SN will develop better and better tools. I think if he sticks around blanca will do some great things.

About the magazines I have yet to find when that pertained to how to play SN salary cap games. One year I even broke down and bought theirs. What a waste of both time and money.

Sharing the data openly is good. But not being able to find here is bad.

Dave how many new people come here each month? I see you have web bugs on some pages so that might give an idea. The web bugs are from Google Adsense and Doubleclick.

And thanks Dave for taking the time to write about this. Made for very interesting reading.

And I am very sorry to be thought of as a troll. I have always enjoyed my time here.


thanks for the fish again

Thanks Dave for the help on the computer. Windows still saying it can't update right after it has.

But I still can't get any value to work with the phrase vssadmin resize /for=c: /on=C: size=300

The string is porobably wrong this what Iremeber off the top of my head. You also need to run it at a admin prompt
That last seems to a default value and I can't get it to change to any other vaule smaller and my machine was set at 138 mb


71An Old Hippie
      Sustainer
      ID: 02106243
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 03:35
Balrog there was paper printed some here about SN and what you should be doing at certain stages of FV. And 55 million was first and I think yoou went with a corner infielder, then 60 an outfielder.
72An Old Hippie
      Sustainer
      ID: 02106243
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 03:42
Found it. it is under baseball then click advances
The article is entitled optimal smallword lines. I missed they start at 57 million. For as old as the article is it does make a little sense.

If this works here


http://rotoguru2.com/base/ba99-05.html

73youngroman
      Donor
      ID: 02934823
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 05:44
the best way to find rotoguru.com was always to look at the standings at Smallworld/TSN. that is how I found it 10 years ago.

by that time I had already started to pull the data myself. I only had no idea yet how to use that data to my advantage. I stopped this whole thinking process when I discovered RotoGuru.

I am always wondering how Dave finds the time to update this every morning. if it would be me running such a site I would try to have most of the processing on autopilot. this way I would have more time to spend on analyzing the data, than providing them.
74Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 10:56
[70] And honestly your tools have gone down hill a little

Ummm, I do take exception to that statement. What tools have gone downhill - honestly?

I don't think any of my tools offer any less information than they ever did. In fact, they offer more.

However, I will admit that the gap between what's available here and what's available at the TSN site is narrower. So the relative advantage is less. But, as I said earlier, some of that was probably driven by TSN adopting elements from here that seemed useful.

TSN didn't always provide 7, 15, and 30 day stats. After I provided them for awhile, they eventually adopted the same splits.

TSN didn't always provide daily player histories for prices or points. I think they once provided only 10 days of history, if that. I always provide the whole season - and prior season as well.

TSN doesn't provide averages based on eligible games. Only games played.

TSN doesn't provide ratios of points to prices (I don't think).

TSN doesn't provide data on opposing starters at the team level.

TSN doesn't provide the capability to list more than 50 players at a time. I do. That may not seem like a big deal, but if you want to copy and paste the data from my report into a spreadsheet, you can get complete data quickly.

And, of course, TSN doesn't have the Assimilator.

And, especially for this season, my tools run faster and more reliably. At least, so far. (knock on wood...)

By the way, for Hoops, the relative advantage of the RotoGuru tools over TSN's is even greater. But some of the extra Hoops functionality doesn't make sense for baseball.

So please, give me an example of some tool that has honestly gone downhill?
75An Old Hippie
      Sustainer
      ID: 02106243
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 15:07
when I was trying the one that imports teams there were a few players missing from the data base. One was Phillies opening day starter. And I wish I would have taken that as an omen and put him missing on my line up.

Maybe it isn't the tools that went. The advice columns are really old. You can still learn from them but some of it seems dated. It is like I said when searching on Google for here. Smallworld and Lycos games were part of what of what rotoguru.com was. Seems wrong somehow.

You run a good place and a great community of people who visit here. And it is nice that through the years people have generally stayed.
Dave honestly i have never been mad at this site. I enjoy reading the forums. I do come here way more then I should. I need a better hobby.

I get a kick out of the fantasy sport wrestling. I have no idea who the wrestlers are but scoring a show and all of it is great.

And I really meant that part about helping me with my computer. It may not have fixed it completely but it helped.

But best of luck with any and all your fantasy teams. IF we ever get in a division together don't kick my butt to bad.

It was informative and thanks for the fish
76Aaron
      ID: 18337101
      Fri, Apr 17, 2009, 16:45
Guru,

I lurk around here and post very infrequently, but I just wanted to say that I greatly appreciated the amount of time you put into this site. The data helps a lot when managing my TSN teams. Thanks for what you do!

Aaron
77Go Easy
      ID: 146502811
      Thu, Apr 23, 2009, 18:11
Dave, I looked for a thread I started 4 years ago (you may remember) when I came back from Iraq and can't find it. I was hoping to quote it so that some people can see the real value of this site, at least to some. Have been off the boards (mostly a lurker) for awhile but am glad to be slowly getting back. I greatly appreciate this site and oh by the way.... it works rather quickly. Thanks for all the work,
78Guru
      ID: 330592710
      Thu, Apr 23, 2009, 20:57
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