| 0 |
Subject: Question about baseball rule.
Posted by: wiggs
- Leader [04991311] Thu, Jul 23, 2009, 23:22
In a game i was playing in tonight we had the bases loaded and a fly ball to deep right field with 1 out. When the ball was hit it looked like it was going to fall in and all the runners took off. The right fielder made a diving catch stood up and threw the ball to 2nd to get the runner that didnt tag up. The runner on 3rd crossed home and never ran back to 3rd base. Here is the question: does the run count because the out was made at 2nd base and there was no appeal to 3rd? |
| 1 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117
Fri, Jul 24, 2009, 00:42
|
Assuming the runner crossed home before the other one was doubled off, yes it would count I believe. Defense would need to appeal (the "fourth out") at third to nullify the run.
|
| 2 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117
Fri, Jul 24, 2009, 00:43
|
In fact, this happened THIS YEAR in the majors:
(see bottom of wiki link)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_out
|
| 3 | potts316
ID: 263391014
Fri, Jul 24, 2009, 10:24
|
Assuming they touched second base to record that out, the run doesn't count, because the play at second base was a force out. If they tagged the runner on his way back to second, then that is not a force out, and the run would count unless they appeal that the runner on third early, as in the Dodgers-Diamondbacks example.
|
| 4 | wiggs
Leader
ID: 04991311
Fri, Jul 24, 2009, 14:16
|
We tagged the base, but they allowed the run because they said it scored before the out was made.
|
| 5 | Farn
Leader
ID: 451044109
Fri, Jul 24, 2009, 14:18
|
Run definitely would not count. The runner returning to 2nd takes precedent. Bad job by the umpire.
|
| 6 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Fri, Jul 24, 2009, 16:44
|
This is definitely something I didn't know. Very interesting stuff from Wikipedia.
I always get confused when there are two runners on the same base. I seem to remember that you can tag both runners in some order and get two outs. But I don't remember the details.
|
| 7 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Fri, Jul 24, 2009, 21:15
|
Yeah this play happened in a Dodgers game this year. The run does count because because there was no appeal at 3rd.
|
| 8 | Dave R
SuperDude
ID: 3010361110
Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 08:15
|
Ref, you should know better.
I agree with Farn, this is a force play and no different than a ground ball DP to end the inning. The fact that there was no appeal is irrelavant.
Bases loaded, grounder to short. It wouldn't matter that a runner from 3rd crossed home plate somehow, before the double play was completed at first base, inning is over and no run scores.
|
| 9 | wiggs
Leader
ID: 04991311
Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 08:53
|
Dave-That was my thought as well, it wasnt an official appeal- back to the mound and say we are appealing the runner. We simply threw the ball to 2nd base and the umpire called him out. I looked at it the same as a line drive to 1st and the 1st baseman touches the bag before the runner gets back in. They counted the run and said it was a timing play and the runner scored before the out was made. They were absolutely right, the runner scored before the ball was even caught.
|
| 10 | wolfer
ID: 25521311
Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 09:10
|
I have to be the bearer of bad news, but Ref is absolutely correct on this. The run counts. Why are you guys thinking it is a foce play?
|
| 11 | barilko6
ID: 50615276
Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 09:19
|
Yeah this looks pretty clear:
Example: A missed fourth out
On April 12, 2009, in a game between the Los Angeles Dodgers and the Arizona Diamondbacks, the Dodgers scored a run because the Diamondbacks failed to record a fourth out. There were runners on second and third with one out when the batter hit a line drive back to the pitcher. The runner on third scored without tagging up before the runner at second was tagged out. The Diamondbacks left the field, thinking that the inning was over and the run did not count. However, tagging the runner at second, who failed to tag up, was not a force out so the run was not canceled. After all the defensive players had left fair territory, Joe Torre talked to the umpire and claimed the run. There were no Arizona players left on the field, so nobody could tag third base and appeal that the runner had not tagged up. If they had done this before leaving the field, it would have become the actual third out and the run would not have scored.[2]
|
| 12 | Great One
ID: 17459269
Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 09:30
|
Can someone explain to me a ball being fair or foul when it goes over first or third base? this always confuses me...
|
| 13 | barilko6
ID: 50615276
Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 09:34
|
If it hits the base and goes foul, its a fair ball. If it goes over the base and lands foul, its a foul ball.
|
| 14 | Dave R
SuperDude
ID: 3010361110
Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 09:36
|
I think the key point in post 11 was the runner was tagged out. It wasn't a force play.
I still stand by my interpretation that the run wouldn't count in Wigg's scenario.
|
| 15 | wiggs
Leader
ID: 04991311
Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 09:41
|
Why are you guys thinking it is a foce play?
I am thinking it is a force play because we had to tag the base to get the out, not the runner. If we had to tag the runner it would not be a force play.
I also understand the situation in the Dodgers game because they actually tagged the runner.
I am not saying Ref is wrong, that is why I am asking the question.
|
| 16 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 09:52
|
If you tag a runner who is in a force situation, it's still a force out. Tag a guy running to first, force out. Tag a guy running back to first after a catch, force out.
|
| 17 | wolfer
ID: 25521311
Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 09:55
|
Re 14
It does not matter if the runner is tagged. Check the play by play in the bottom of the 8th.
|
| 18 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 10:37
|
That's impossible. The managers for the Red Sox and A's were playing in this game. And two Hall of Famers, neither of whom are on the Yankees. And the guy who was just traded for Rickey Henderson AND the guy who was about to be traded for Paul O'Neill. And a former #1 overall pick, again not on the Yankees. And Adam Dunn playing right field for the Brewers.
Oh, and I'm most interested in that guy at shortstop. I think he might be decent some day.
|
| 19 | Mith
ID: 2894309
Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 10:48
|
Actually there were two guys in that game who had just been traded for Rickey Henderson.
|
| 20 | DWetzel at work
ID: 49962710
Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 10:58
|
"I am thinking it is a force play because we had to tag the base to get the out, not the runner. If we had to tag the runner it would not be a force play."
Except you aren't tagging the base to force out the runner from first. You're tagging the base to double the guy off of second, where he already was. Once the ball is caught in the air, there are no force plays.
|
| 21 | DWetzel at work
ID: 49962710
Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 11:00
|
"Can someone explain to me a ball being fair or foul when it goes over first or third base? this always confuses me..."
If the ball is airborne (hasn't touched the ground yet), it's fair or foul based on where it first contacts the ground if that's beyond the base. It can be 10 feet fair over the base and hook foul; if it contacts the ground foul, it's foul.
If it has touched the ground in fair territory before reaching the base line, then it is fair or foul based on where the ball is when it passes over the base line. It can bounce fair, foul, fair again, foul again, hit a rock and bounce back fair--it's wherever it is when it crosses the base line.
|
| 22 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 11:22
|
MITH, I was talking about Polonia - who is the other one? And which Parker is this?
|
| 23 | Mith
ID: 2894309
Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 11:32
|
The Yankees traded Henderson to Oakland for Polonia, Greg Cadaret and Eric Plunk (who came into that game with 2 outs in the 7th - and who has a terrific name for a fireballer with very limited control).
The starter was Clay Parker, who was received in an exchange of spare parts with the Mariners the year before. I remember thinking he had some nice potential but then he was traded the following year to Detroit for Matt Nokes and never made any noise after that.
|
| 24 | Great One
ID: 17459269
Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 11:40
|
I swear I've seen them call balls fair cause it went over the base and was fair while it was passing over the base... I can't figure out what I'm thinking of or the proper scenario.
|
| 25 | C1-NRB
ID: 2911103011
Mon, Jul 27, 2009, 11:44
|
I saw an inordinate number of "foul" balls roll back "fair" before reaching the base during my kid's softball games this summer. I lost count, but it easily averaged more than one per game.
The girls would swing late causing the ball to have so much spin on it that balls hit two to three feet foul would spin back into fair territory before it reached the base. Try explaining that rule to seven-to-nine year olds, not to mention their parents.
|
| 26 | dogga55
ID: 53315514
Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 09:15
|
Back to the Wiggs' original scenario. Since none of the runners tagged up (all the runners took off) after the catch, the runner on 3rd did not score before the 3rd out is made. He crossed home plate, but he didn't score. No appeal would be necessary, because the inning is over.
If I'm wrong, please straighten me out.
|
| 27 | Goldcoach
ID: 893426
Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 13:32
|
Great question Wiggs: To get a grasp of it imagine this scenario. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, 0 outs. Same fly ball and the runners take off without tagging up. The fly is caught (1 out) the play is made at second (2 outs) the runner from third crosses home, and
A. No appeal is made to third. The run counts.
B. The appeal is made to third. The runner is out and the run does not count.
Now we modify things by making everything the same except there is one out when the play begins. Unless the appeal is made to third the run counts if he crosses the plate prior to the third out being made at second base.
The runners at second & third are not in "force out"positions since they do not have to leave the base they occupy at the start of the play; i.e. they are not "forced" to advance.
|
| 28 | wiggs
Leader
ID: 04991311
Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 13:41
|
Thanks GC-
I guess I just always considered any out that does not require a tag as a force out.
Also to make matters worse I did try to convince the umpire we could still get the 4th out at 3rd base, but they told us there was no such thing as a 4th out. I have since done research and found that was a mistake as well.
|
| 29 | Seattle Zen
ID: 18612813
Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 14:01
|
GO - I swear I've seen them call balls fair cause it went over the base and was fair while it was passing over the base... I can't figure out what I'm thinking of or the proper scenario.
When a ball hits the ground in the infield, it's not "fair" or "foul" until it gets to the base or a fielder grabs it (or it stops rolling). So a chopper down the line will be fair if it goes over the bag and lands past the bag in foul territory.
|
| 30 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 16:12
|
This is not a force play, it's an appeal play.
MLB covers this in rule 7.10
...Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.” If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has “left the field” when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or clubhouse.
|
| 31 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 16:19
|
In post 4, wiggs states that they tagged the bag in appeal after the 3rd out was made. The umps should have then recognized the 4th out and nullified the original 3rd out and made the appeal at 3rd the final 3rd out of the inning. This would have nullified the run as long as all fielders didn't leave fair territory first.
|
| 32 | wiggs
Leader
ID: 04991311
Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 16:34
|
thanks ref- that makes more sense to me. The run should not have counted right?
|
| 33 | Great One
ID: 065867
Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 16:36
|
"So a chopper down the line will be fair if it goes over the bag and lands past the bag in foul territory"
This is what I'm trying to wrap my head around. I guess if it bounces a couple times, bounces right over the bag and lands foul.. its fair? Thats what i can't picture. I know this would only happen in something similar to what C1-NRB is trying to explain to parents and kids... what if it bounces along in foul - goes over the bag - and lands fair?
|
| 34 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 16:46
|
GO, Zen worded it perfectly in post 29.
If the ball hasn't touched the ground yet and it's past the bag--it's where the ball lands in the field. If the ball hits the ground first before it goes past the bag, it's fair if it goes over the bag.
|
| 35 | Great One
ID: 065867
Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 16:54
|
Yeah, so I guess the key is whether it bounces before the bag or not. Ok.
|
| 36 | Ref
Donor
ID: 539581218
Tue, Jul 28, 2009, 22:41
|
RE: 32 In your original post you state there was no appeal at 3rd. That means the run counts.
Then in post 4, you say you tagged third--which means if you appealed (4th out) it should not have counted as that appeal to 3rd becomes the 3rd out.
Think of it like this. You don't have to tag up. You can run and score whenever you want. It's only "cheating if you get caught" kind of logic. They have to appeal to keep you "honest" and stealing the run. The lead runner is the key because once he's out on appeal--no other runs would count behind him. But even if you get the runner(s) behind him, you still have to negate that first run (if he crossed the plate before another appeal was made) by appealling to 3rd base before everyone leaves fair territory. If you don't appeal, then technically, the runner scored legally as if he had tagged up.
|
| 37 | J
Leader
ID: 049346417
Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 09:32
|
I don't understand why they made the rule like that. If an ump notices a runner leaves early on a tag play...why not just call him out????
|
| 38 | wiggs
Leader
ID: 04991311
Wed, Jul 29, 2009, 09:42
|
Ref- The reason I said there was no appeal at 3rd was because the umpire would not allow the appeal. They told us that once the 3rd out was made we could not appeal another base and that was why the run counted.
I hope that makes sense. Thanks for all your input on this case- you have really helped.
|
| Rate this thread: | If you wish, you may rate this thread on scale of 1-5. Ratings should indicate how valuable or interesting you believe this thread would be to other users of this forum. A '5' means that this thread is a 'must read'. A '1' means that this is a complete waste of time. If you have previously rated this thread, rating it again will delete your previous rating. If you do not want to rate this thread, but want to see how others have rated it, then click the button without entering a rating, or else click here. |
|
|
|
Post a reply to this message: (But first, how about checking out this sponsor?)
|