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Subject: Jeter Posted by: Perm Dude - [154552311] Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 16:17 Gotta love The Onion: Derek Jeter honored for having fewer hits than Harold Baines | |||||||
| 1 | Seattle Zen ID: 238441010 Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 16:19 |
 Will he ever escape that foreboding shadow? Me thinks not... | ||||||
| 2 | biliruben ID: 461142511 Fri, Sep 18, 2009, 17:18 | Plus, Jeter hits like a girl. They should divide his hit totals by 2. You'd think Baines would object to the comparison, and sue The Onion for libel. | ||||||
| 3 | blue hen Dude ID: 710321114 Mon, Sep 21, 2009, 11:08 |
I've said it before and I'll say it again. That's why hits aren't very important. | ||||||
| 4 | Khahan ID: 391582715 Mon, Sep 21, 2009, 15:14 |
Absolutely priceless. I especially love this quote: "Jeter's 2,722nd career hit not only puts him in the company of Yankee legends, but also ranks him with an elite group of 675,000 additional baseball players past and present with fewer hits than Baines" | ||||||
| 5 | Razor ID: 14791320 Mon, Sep 21, 2009, 15:18 | Hits aren't important? Since when? Most runs are scored off of hits and most runners get on base as a result of hits. | ||||||
| 6 | biliruben ID: 461142511 Mon, Sep 21, 2009, 16:02 |
True, Dat. But hits pale in comparison to (1) Moxie, (2) grit and (3) arrogant sneers that all sabermatricians worth their prospectus will agree are the underlying fundamental building blocks of the all-important skill of "knowing how to win". Jeter has these 3 things positively dripping out his nostrils, not to mention his other orifices (Really. Don't mention them.), and that would shine through, even if he were on KC or the Nats. | ||||||
| 7 | blue hen Dude ID: 710321114 Mon, Sep 21, 2009, 18:49 |
Jeter has about 36 KnowsHowToWin this year, tops in the majors. Jason Varitek, even in a down year, has managed 12. And no, hits aren't important, relatively. What interests me most is that the Yankee record is so low. | ||||||
| 8 | Perm Dude ID: 154552311 Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 02:06 |
If hits aren't important, and the Yankees are the best team in baseball history, why would you wonder why the Yankee record is low? Isn't the fact that it is low prove your point? Or don't you believe yourself? | ||||||
| 9 | barilko6 ID: 54855226 Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 07:55 |
Wait Perm Dude...aren't you proving Hen's argument with that statement? The Yankees are awesome even though the hits are so low? (For the record, I think hits are important!) | ||||||
| 10 | Khahan ID: 486552412 Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 08:28 | Hits are NOT important. Hits are bad. Only strikeouts, groundouts and flyouts count for anything worthwhile. | ||||||
| 11 | JeffG Leader ID: 01584348 Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 08:58 | In this article, there is a table of the all time hit leader by team. With all the players HOF or otherwise who have played with the Yankees close to 100 years, it does seem they are on the low side of the chart and among teams whose history dates back to the early 20th century only the Cleveland and Philadelphia franchises have hit leaders with lower totals. The Dodgers and their array of greats equally surprised me, they are not far ahead. | ||||||
| 12 | biliruben Leader ID: 589301110 Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 09:32 |
Ed Kranepool?!? The Dodgers, at least in my lifetime, have more been defined by superior arms than bats, so I'm not too surprised. That's not true of the Bronx Bombers. The truth is, there just isn't that many guys with the longevity and talent to get high on the list. It's kinda random that team these few ended up on. | ||||||
| 13 | Mith Dude ID: 01629107 Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 10:03 |
Ruth spent his first 5 years in Boston. Gehrig, Combs, DiMaggio and Mantle all retired at age 36 (with DiMaggio losing 4 years to the war). Bernie Williams retired at 37 after a sharp decline, Berra and Dickey were catchers, Lazzeri was released at age 34. Other long-time Yankees Crosetti, Rizzuto and White did not have exceptional hitting careers. Jeter should be a decent bet to crack the top ten on the list of franchise hit leaders. | ||||||
| 14 | Perm Dude ID: 154552311 Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 10:06 |
barilko: I'm saying that hen is being somewhat inconsistent in his wonderings. I believe hits are important myself. It's how you get those runs, which is how, you know, you win games. | ||||||
| 15 | Great One ID: 4778411 Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 10:13 |
reminds me of this one... Derek Jeter Leads Yankees to Victory with Dramatic Walk-Off Intangible Derek Jeter led the Yankees to an exciting, come-from-behind victory over the Orioles last night with a dramatic, walk-off, bases loaded intangible. It was the shortstop’s 1,148thcareer game-winning intangible, extending his major league record. Jeter came to the plate against Baltimore closer Chris Ray in the bottom of the ninth inning with the bases loaded, two outs and the Yankees trailing 6-3. But seconds later his unmatched intangibles cleared the bases and had New York celebrating an exciting win before a roaring home crowd. “It was amazing to see,” said recent Yankees acquisition Bobby Abreu. “I’ve long heard about Jeter’s intangibles and how his true worth can’t be measured by his somewhat pedestrian numbers, but this is the first time I witnessed it with my own eyes. It’s still unclear to me exactly what happened. I remember him going up to the plate. There was maybe a pitch or two and then a great flash of light shot out of him and filled the sky. Then the next thing I knew everyone was celebrating at home plate. It was totally surreal. But great, because we really needed the win.” Baltimore’s Ray said all he can do is tip is cap to Jeter and try to get him next time. “When a guy with the unmatched intangibles that he has comes up, you’re kind of at their mercy,” said Ray. “I did my best, but his intangibles won out.” Yankees manager Joe Torre said last night’s walk-off intangible is just the latest example of why he wouldn’t trade Jeter for any other player in baseball. “Derek’s detractors will point out the fact that he doesn’t have much power. Or that he strikes out too much. Or that he has limited range at shortstop and a mediocre throwing arm,” said Torre. “But it’s the intangibles that set him apart from every other player in baseball. The intangibles. What those are exactly I can’t say. It’s kind of tough to put your finger on. But it’s something. And that something somehow won the game for us tonight.” Jeter’s teammate, Alex Rodriguez, says he wishes he could one day come through with a walk-off intangible at Yankee Stadium. “I was the MVP of the entire American League last year and even though my numbers are way down this year, they’ll still dwarf anything Derek has ever put up,” said Rodriguez. “Yet it’s not enough for people, and I know that. They want championships here in New York and in order to get championships you need players with intangibles – whatever they might be and however it is that you go about displaying them. If we could have a lineup full of Derek Jeters, we wouldn’t have a single guy with more than 20 home runs or 80 RBI, but we’d be working on eight-straight championships. That’s a given.” | ||||||
| 16 | barilko6 ID: 488582213 Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 14:58 |
PD, I think what Blue Hen is saying, hits aren't important, and for an example of that, look at the Yankees, who are extremely successful in spite of their all time hits leader having such a low total of career hits. I am not sure where the inconsistencies lie. | ||||||
| 17 | blue hen Dude ID: 710321114 Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 15:15 |
I see what PD meant. You are right. The Yankees win by walking a lot, hitting homers, and getting timely pitching, especially in the bullpen. I shouldn't be surprised that their leader is so low. Granted, I said it "interests" me, not that I was "surprised" by it. Anything that furthers my point definitely interests me. We also haven't mentioned that the Yankees often buy the best players from other teams (Rickey Henderson, Jason Giambi, Roger Maris, Reggie Jackson, Babe Ruth, etc). As a result, the players do not accumulate big totals with the Yankees. | ||||||
| 18 | Perm Dude ID: 154552311 Tue, Sep 22, 2009, 15:23 | Ruth has been mentioned twice in this thread, but probably isn't a good example. He only came to the Yankees after one full year as a full-time hitter with Boston. Previous to that he was a full-time pitcher, with only about 200 hits over 5 seasons. | ||||||
| 19 | biliruben ID: 461142511 Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 15:15 | That just reemphasizes silliness of using this stat to glorify a good, but not great player. It's meaningless. Cooperstown will be degraded after his induction. | ||||||
| 20 | Razor ID: 57854118 Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 15:25 | How many shortstops will have finished their career with 3,000 hits OR a .390 career OBP OR 4 World Series rings, much less AND? Jeter is as deserving a Hall of Famer as he is likely to be one. | ||||||
| 21 | Khahan ID: 391582715 Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 15:28 |
If he retires today, I don't think he should be in the Hall of Fame. However, he's 35?. Give him a few more years of stats and we'll see. yankees hall of fame? Yes baseball hall of fame: No | ||||||
| 22 | Mith Dude ID: 01629107 Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 15:57 |
.317 batting average and 2700 hits. There isn't anyone who has passed both those thresholds and failed to make the Hall of Fame. In fact, someone named George Van Haltren, who played most of his career in the 19th century, is the only eligible former player with a .310 or better career average and more than 2100 hits who is not in the HOF. | ||||||
| 23 | Perm Dude ID: 154552311 Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 16:08 |
If Scooter is in, there's no reason anyone can't get in from the Yankees. There are special rules for a special team. Except for Mattingly, of course. | ||||||
| 24 | Mith Dude ID: 01629107 Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 16:15 |
Scooter got in via the Veterans' Committee. Their authority has been sufficiently curbed to likely keep the honor out of Mattingly's reach. Tho if they were able to get Joe Gordon in... | ||||||
| 25 | Razor ID: 57854118 Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 16:18 |
I don't have time to get into a protracted debate about this at the moment, so I'll simply present this list. It's the list of active OPS leaders. This list ignores longevity, position and skews favorably towards sluggers and away from on-base guys like Jeter. There are 43 players in front of Jeter. Of them, I count six non-steroid users that have even arguably had better careers to date than Jeter - Pujols, Griffey, Helton, Thome, Guerrero and Chipper. Jeter's been pretty indisputably better than every other non-steroid player in front of him on this list. Jeter's a Hall of Famer if he played on any team. Right now. | ||||||
| 26 | Perm Dude ID: 154552311 Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 16:33 |
I think he's in myself, but Jeter's average is likely to go down,and on any other team than the Yankees, he would probably end up like Al Oliver or Roberto Alomar, who both had over 2700 hits and hit over .300 but have no chance of getting into the HoF. (IMO, Jeter's captaincy plus WS rings put him over the top, even if he mails it in the next 3-4 years. Also, the fact that at his age he will likely finish above his career averages in pretty much every offensive category this year.) | ||||||
| 27 | Mith Dude ID: 01629107 Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 16:46 | Why would Alomar have no chance at the hall? That's absurd. He'll be in by his 4th year of eligibility. On what world is Jeter comparable to Al Oliver, who played 1B and OF his whole career and who's overall stats fall short of Steve Garvey? | ||||||
| 28 | Razor ID: 57854118 Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 16:51 |
Alomar should be in the Hall. And Jeter won't finish with 2,700 hits. Unless he has a catastrophic injury, he's a lock for 3,000 hits. 270 hits to go could easily be done even if he declines severely over the next two seasons. Jeter's numbers are getting so good that he would have a pretty good case as a corner OF or a 1B. As a SS, it's indisputable. | ||||||
| 29 | Khahan ID: 391582715 Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 16:55 |
Ok, looking over his overall stats, I think I hvae to give Jeter the Hall bubble (which to me says he's not in, but he's closer than I thought). If he gets in, I don't think it would 'be a disgrace' to the hall or any such nonsense. If he doesn't get in, I don't think it speaks ill towards him. He's right around that borderline. 1570 runs, 1100 rbi's, 220 hr, 2700 hits, .317 BA, 300 steals. Pretty nice. Consider 15 seasons and some of those cumulative stats seem even better. Give him 18 seasons and I see no reason his line won't be more like: 1800 runs, 1300 rbis, 280 HR, 3000 hits, .305 BA 350 steals. Add in his current award credentials: 2nd in mvp, 3rd in mvp, 6th in mvp, top 10 mvp 6 times, 10 Allstar games, multiple gold glove (questionable if he should have had some of them, but t hey are there) and multiple silver slugger, RoY, team captain. Add in the little extras (intangibles) and post season numbers. He'll be in the Hall of Fame with 3 more years of an 'average decline.' | ||||||
| 30 | blue hen Dude ID: 710321114 Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 16:57 |
Agree with Razor on all counts (except the one at the top that we've already covered and will always disagree on). Jeter is in right now, and would probably also be in as a leftfielder. Probably not as a DH, at least until after Edgar. Alomar is also a lock (or a travesty). | ||||||
| 31 | biliruben ID: 461142511 Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 17:01 | No doubt. He'll be in. Unless he insists on a separate shrine or something. | ||||||
| 32 | Seattle Zen ID: 238441010 Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 17:15 |
Razor, your steroid fixation is ridiculous, I'm going to ignore your silliness. I agree that Jeter is a HOF today, but this statement: Jeter's a Hall of Famer if he played on any team. Right now. I disagree. If he was a Houston Astro his whole career, how would he be any different than Craig Bigio? Pretty much everyone believed Bigio needed to get to 3,000 hits to be a lock. (Baseball reference now how the ability to sum up mulitple years by clicking on each row you want tabulated.) Bigio totals from his rookie campaign in 1988 to 2004 look very similar to Jeter's career to date. I don't remember too many people claiming that Bigio was a lock in 2004. Jeter is a lock, but to say that it is unimportant that he was the captain of four NYY world champion squads is hogwash. | ||||||
| 33 | Mith Dude ID: 01629107 Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 18:06 |
Bigio totals from his rookie campaign in 1988 to 2004 look very similar to Jeter's career to date. Closer than I would have thought, the steals make up at least much of the difference in batting average. Biggio '88-'04 vs Jeter to date (Biggio's totals listed first): Hits: 2639 - 2736 AVG: .287 - .317 OPS: .810 - .846 RBI: 994 - 1066 RUNS: 1603 - 1571 SB: 396 - 303 But after seeing the numbers were that close I had to go back and see what was said about him in the various HOF threads here. Here's a HOF thread from May of 2003. Biggio was 37 and had just over 2300 hits at the time. Nerfherders listed him as having an "outside shot" to reach the Hall in the thread subject field and in a later post wrote, "I read somewhere that Bill James concluded that Craig Biggio was the best player of the 90s, based on win shares. Im certainly not convinced myself, but I think that for a second baseman hes probably in the top 10 all time." Razor listed him as having a "decent shot". Interestingly, it was Seattle Zen who wrote, "Craig Biggio? Come on!" | ||||||
| 34 | Perm Dude ID: 154552311 Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 18:15 | To be fair to those talking about Biggio in that thread, MITH, in 2004 (a year after that thread) Biggio had a great season. | ||||||
| 35 | Mith Dude ID: 01629107 Thu, Sep 24, 2009, 18:16 |
Note that 2000, 2002 and 2003 were all down years for Biggio. He was on the wrong side of 35 by then and surely looked in decline. 1 2/3 seasons later, including a nice comeback year in 2004, I'd bet there was a the beginning of a groundswell of support for his eventual induction. Aside from being the Yankee captain during one of their glory eras, Jeter is different in at least one other regard, he's more than a year younger than Biggio was after 2004 and he hasn't really had what anyone would call a down year yet. | ||||||
| 36 | Razor ID: 14791320 Sun, Sep 27, 2009, 17:42 |
I still think Biggio is a Hall of Famer. Interestingly, I once thought Bagwell was a lock but that was after anticipating a gradual decline in his numbers, not a complete dropoff. I think he is borderline right now. Zen, if you want to compare known steroid users to other players, that's your prerogative. One look at the all-time home run list or league MVP/Cy Young Award lists over the past 20 years makes it clear that steroids greatly enhanced the numbers of those who used. Guys like Griffey, Jeter and Maddux cannot be compared straight up to Bonds, A-Rod and Clemens. | ||||||
| 37 | blue hen Dude ID: 710321114 Tue, Sep 29, 2009, 14:04 | Biggio also played the first X years of his career in the Astrodome, and played 5 years before 1993, when offense took off. | ||||||
| 38 | blue hen Dude ID: 710321114 Tue, Sep 29, 2009, 14:06 | Also, in 35, MITH mentions Jeter was Yankee captain during one of their glory eras. When did he get named captain? Was it before 2001? | ||||||
| 39 | Great One ID: 49852811 Tue, Sep 29, 2009, 14:08 | I don't know the years, but I'm curious if Biggio's last big years were at "Enron Field" when it was still called that. Cause wasn't that field similar to Coors for a few years in terms of scoring? So that might explain the late bump in production. | ||||||
| 40 | Mith Dude ID: 01629107 Tue, Sep 29, 2009, 14:17 | Good point, BH. According to Wiki, Jeter was named captain on 6/3/03. That's either 3 seasons after their glory era or at the tail end of it, depending on whether you count the 2001 and 2003 Pennants. | ||||||
| 41 | Perm Dude ID: 438132822 Tue, Sep 29, 2009, 14:21 |
#38: Since 2003 #39: Biggio did play in that park, but (according to baseball-reference.com's ballpark adjustments), the park only slightly favored hitters during those years. | ||||||
| 42 | Steve Biz ID: 139486 Thu, Oct 08, 2009, 07:24 |
Guys like Griffey, Jeter and Maddux cannot be compared straight up to Bonds, A-Rod and Clemens. I think that's an interesting statement. I think you can compare them. Maddux was better than Clemens. Bonds, ARod, and Griffey are all in the same conversation (although when all is said and done I think ARod will take the cake). Jeter's no where near the talent level of those three, although I definitely think he's a HOFer. | ||||||
| 43 | biliruben Leader ID: 589301110 Thu, Oct 08, 2009, 09:21 | Agreed. Though on any other team, I wouldn't have been as confident of his chances. | ||||||
| 44 | JeffG Leader ID: 01584348 Mon, Oct 12, 2009, 14:53 |
Does Jeter's play in the 8th inning of ALDS game 3 on the infield single that picked off Punto rounding third base go into his career hi-light reel as another play that shows how much value he adds to his team and a game, or is that a play that most shortstops would have made? I don't know the answer, but I do know that it is little things like that on a heads up play that Yankee fans have come to appreciate day in and day out, and use to elevate Jeter's status as HOF material that other fans that call Jeter overrated do not regularly see. | ||||||
| 45 | blue hen Dude ID: 710321114 Mon, Oct 12, 2009, 15:45 | I've been wondering exactly that. Jeter has made a lot of "wow" plays, and while we need to look at all plays rather than a select few, it's pretty incredible how Jeter is involved in plays like this time after time after time. Maybe he really is that good... | ||||||
| 46 | biliruben ID: 461142511 Mon, Oct 12, 2009, 18:37 |
I will give him that. He does seem to have his head in the game and ability to quickly react to novel situations. That makes up for his marginal natural baseball skills. But would we even know about these plays if he were in Wisconsin? I think not. | ||||||
| 47 | JeffG Leader ID: 01584348 Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 08:37 |
But would we even know about these plays if he were in Wisconsin? I think not. Maybe the average baseball fan from other regions would not see it, which I guess is why tenured baseball writers who should know this stuff because they supposedly follow the game closely are the ones that are given the burdon of deciding who should win the annual awards (MVP, Gold Glove, etc) and ultimately who is eventually enshrinded in the HOF. Average fans are always going to be partial to the folks they see everyday, which is why in September you have ballparks full of people chanting 'MVP' for their local guy, and why threads like this discussing the "greatness" of certain players is always going to have some partisanship in the arguments. | ||||||
| 48 | Great One ID: 4778411 Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 08:46 | I think Bili's right. If he played for the Royals, nobody would even notice and they really wouldn't win too many more games. But being on the Yankees, he's in the right situation to have his strengths be noticed. | ||||||
| 49 | Tree ID: 248472317 Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 08:57 |
Zen, if you want to compare known steroid users to other players, that's your prerogative. One look at the all-time home run list or league MVP/Cy Young Award lists over the past 20 years makes it clear that steroids greatly enhanced the numbers of those who used. Guys like Griffey, Jeter and Maddux cannot be compared straight up to Bonds, A-Rod and Clemens. do we discount Gaylord Perry's career? do we take away Dock Ellis' no-hitter? it's absurd. the fact of the matter is that many - heck, i would dare say a majority - MLB players used some sort of performance enhancing drug in the last 25 years. that's a quarter of a century. players have ALWAYS sought a competitive edge, and guys like Perry actually broke the rules to do so - not so with much of the steroid usage, which simply wasn't against the rules. Dock Ellis also admitted to being on illegal drugs for his no-hitter - so let's DQ it too? If he played for the Royals, nobody would even notice and they really wouldn't win too many more games. But being on the Yankees, he's in the right situation to have his strengths be noticed. perhaps. But if Jeter's greatest strength are his intangibles (all joking aside), then it stands to reason that if he was a Brewer his whole career, then he would have quite possibly helped bring the multiple championships. but it also stands to reason that as soon as he became a free agent, Jeter would have ended up in New York or Boston or another large market anyway, and the argument would be moot. | ||||||
| 50 | barilko6 ID: 32931138 Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 09:37 |
Re: 49 not so with much of the steroid usage, which simply wasn't against the rules. I am not sure about when they became illegal, I think primarily in 1990, but if steroids were illegal to use in the USA, wouldn't that also mean they would be illegal to use within the parameters of professional baseball, whether they are physically written into the rules or not? I mean I don't think there is a rule in the rulebooks that states you can't murder the 2nd baseman, but I would still think that would be against the rules, primarily because it is illegal within the country to do so. Just talking out loud here. | ||||||
| 51 | Great One ID: 4778411 Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 09:37 | But would he have wound up in Boston or NY? they don't seem to sign FA's for their intangibles anymore... they sign for their #'s... maybe in the days of O'Neil and Tino etc but now its the Giambi and Randy Johnson and Sheffield etc. Otherwise a guy like Eckstein would be on one of these teams. | ||||||
| 52 | Razor ID: 57854118 Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 09:41 |
Nobody would notice if a shortstop in Kansas City or Milwaukee ended up with 3,000 hits? Really? I'll say this - nothing Jeter has done defensively except maybe the flip throw against the A's was something I did not see Cesar Izturis do on a routine basis. I don't watch any teams regularly besides the Braves and Dodgers, but Izturis is probably the most natural defender I have ever seen. There's nothing in Jeter's defensive repertoire that I've seen that Izturis, and probably many other shortstops, could not and did not do. Jeter has just been in so many postseason games that he's had a much larger audience watching his occasionally extraordinary plays. Without getting into yet another argument about it, looking at the list of users, it is patently obvious how pronounced the effects of steroids are. Did Gaylord Perry win 300 games because he scuffed balls? I don't know. Did Barry Bonds slug .800 at age 39 because of steroids? Certainly. | ||||||
| 53 | blue hen Dude ID: 710321114 Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 09:51 |
I'd like to steer this discussion away from steroids. A singles hitter can become a star even in an out-of-the-way city like San Diego. Tony Gwynn was far from the best player in baseball (lower OBP than Adam Dunn), but was definitely among the most noted. And it turns out there IS a shortstop from Milwaukee that wound up with 3000 hits. And he's a Hall of Famer to boot. And a two-time MVP. Pretty sure people noticed. As for Izturis, you are right. He's pretty great. But so is Troy Tulowitzki. And Brendan Ryan. And Orlando Hudson. And probably many others. Hell, Chase Utley made the exact same throw home play that Jeter did in last year's world series. Anyone want to make a list of Jeter's top plays? The first November home run is another rare one. As Razor said, other than the flip, there aren't THAT many that other players don't make as well. | ||||||
| 54 | barilko6 ID: 32931138 Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 09:55 |
You can type Jeters greatest plays onto Youtube and highlight videos pop up. Jeter did it with his bat and made some nice plays. I don't think Izturis really made noise with his bat. | ||||||
| 55 | barilko6 ID: 32931138 Tue, Oct 13, 2009, 09:58 |
Here is a youtube link of Derek Jeter's top 9 plays. Top Plays In my opinion, here is a much, much better list of his top plays of all time: Better List | ||||||
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