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Subject: Rob Neyer's Top 100 players of the decade
Posted by: Seattle Zen
- [1410391215] Wed, Dec 16, 2009, 20:10
What's Neyer smokin'?
You'll hear that question amongst the people gathered around the Hot Stove this year.
Well, I actually agree with his first sentence, it's not easy choosing between the first two. I think I lean towards ARod one, Albert two, and I agree that Bonds is three simply on the unmatched strength of his 4 year MVP stretch.
Easy targets to make fun of: Placido Polanco at 46! Corey Koskie is on this list, wat?
I'm assuming Neyer left a digit off of Eric Chavez's rank, he obviously is somewhere between 390-399. I'll give him a pass and blame his editors. If anyone needed recognition, it should be his agent who got him signed to a contract that guaranteed him a job in 2006 to present for without that contract, he is unemployed.
Scott Rolen at 11, above Manny Ramirez?
Here's Scott's numbers: .285/.368/.497 OPS .865, OPS+ 124
201 HR's, 791 Runs, 832 RBI, 72 steals
Manny: .317/.419/.599 OPS 1.018, OPS+ 160
348 HR's, 933 runs, 1106 RBI.
I don't care if Rolen was Ozzie Smith of third base, this is outrageous. Manny placed in the MVP votinng every season this decade save 2009.
Flame away! |
| 1 | RecycledSpinalFluid
Dude
ID: 204401122
Wed, Dec 16, 2009, 21:03
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J.D.F.N. Drew at @ 22?
Saberdorks.
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| 2 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 10:40
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I wouldn't put Rolen over Manny either, but don't sell Rolen short. Rolen was a great baserunner (despite only 72 steals) and a fantastic fielder by any measure. And it's not like we're talking Pedro Feliz here - Rolen can actually hit. With big negatives on the bases and in the field for Manny, this one is closer than you make it sound.
I'd be very interested to see your top 100 list. Have at it.
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| 3 | JeffG
Leader
ID: 01584348
Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 15:42
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I'd like to think Mariano Rivera at #24 would rank higher on this very subjective list (Even if I can try mentally to separate out his successes in the late 90s), but out of the 100 listed players, I belive Mo is the only closer which makes his consistency at such a high level even more special.
If this list was covering a 10 year period that ended in 2008, Bonds would easily be the #1.
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| 4 | beastiemiked
ID: 35621411
Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 22:29
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Lol, at JD Drew. He hit more than 73 RBI's twice in his career. His OPS .896 is good but considering he's only averaged 123 games a year it's probably slightly above average.
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| 5 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 10:12
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I'm not going to be very staunch defending Drew, but he does have an OPS 100 points higher than Johnny Damon (32). I'll give Damon the steals and the durability, but I don't think Damon has much of an edge defensively.
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| 6 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 21049216
Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 10:48
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I like Neyer but that list does seem a bit whack...Carlos Lee 98? Rolen and Edmonds seem sort of crazy high...is Rolen really 65 spots better than Aramis Ramirez? Chavez and Drew are sort of a joke... Jose Valentin on the list...ahead of someone like Carlos Lee?!? Koskie same thing...Cameron? Looks like Neyer has a heavy emphasis on defense which is sort of the opposite of what I would expect from him. Only closer to make the list was Riviera...
Some players left off that should definitely be there: Lincecum, Howard, Morneau, Brian Roberts, Smoltz, Soriano, Carpenter, Hoffman, Garrett Anderson...
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| 7 | barilko6
ID: 611241810
Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 11:24
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Hmm...Can you really include Lincecum for a player of the decade when he only had 2 great seasons?
I agree Hoffman should be in there, Drew is waaaaay too high. I might even argue him off the list completely. Same with Valentin, Koskie, Chavez.
But its a subjective list, agreed, and no matter who makes it, there will always be criticism.
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| 8 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 11:50
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Hard to compile a list of player rankings over a decade for a team sport like baseball. I can quibble but I certainly laud the attempt.
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| 9 | SeattleZen on Vashon
ID: 2511151811
Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 12:15
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BH I'd be very interested to see your top 100 list. Have at it.
Oh, you have a be a member of Seattle Zen Insider to get to see my list. Hey, I can sell you a sweet five-year package that includes a glossy full sized magazine! Best thing - No Bill Simmons.
Here's a free preview - there will be no one on the list who heads a "worst OPS for the entire season, minimum 350 abs", so you won't see Eric Chavez.
Count on seeing more pitchers, Ryan Howard and Justin Morneau.
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| 10 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 13:38
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Zen, you've already made me choose not to subscribe. Because every fan knows that there is no season in which Eric Chavez headed that list. Were you thinking about someone else?
I'd say Neyer was pretty evenhanded about the Morneau, Howard, Lincecum crew. They missed half the decade, so there has to be some penalty. But all three would definitely be on my list somewhere.
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| 11 | SeattleZen on Vashon
ID: 2511151811
Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 13:41
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Eric Chavez was below replacement value for half a decade, which is much worse than not playing.
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| 12 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 21049216
Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 15:56
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Koskie, Sosa, Thomas, Valentin, etc...also missed a part of the decade or were in serious decline during it. If you are going to put those kind of players...someone like Griffey Jr should be on the list.
I would rather have 2 Cy Young years from Lincecum or an MVP plus some other exceptional years from Morneau/Howard than 6 mediocre years from Koskie, etc...would rather have a player with great seasons over players that best seasons are barely above mediocre.
I would not really consider it even handed as someone like Hanley Ramirez (4 seasons) made the list. Howard(6)/Morneau(7) not on the list...certainly light years better than many on the list. Soriano...I know saber guys do not like him but still hit nearly 300 HRs, 7 all-start games, etc...during the decade.
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| 13 | blue hen
ID: 8115717
Sun, Dec 20, 2009, 17:33
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I don't know what kind of drug Vashon is, but apparently it prevents you from showing your work, even if it's wrong. Zen, I can only find one season where Eric Chavez was below average, 2008. Please either retract your statement or give us some numbers.
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| 14 | Razor
ID: 571022618
Sun, Dec 20, 2009, 17:42
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Did you miss 2007? And 2009? And if we're calling .241/.351/.435 over 136 games at 3B below average, which I would, then 2006 too. So that makes 4 years out of 10 below average or worse.
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| 16 | Khahan
ID: 391582715
Mon, Dec 21, 2009, 13:03
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Jeter #4 and Rollins #52. Was jeter *that* much better than rollins this decade?
And where is Alfonso Soriano?
Yes, his defense is horrendous, but surely somebody who made multiple runs at the 40/40 club is deserving?
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| 17 | Khahan
ID: 391582715
Mon, Dec 21, 2009, 13:08
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Ok, knock off Larry Walker (this is after all the top 100 players of the 0's, not the 90s) and put in Alfonso Soriano. Come on Rob, Larry Walker for the 2000's?
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| 18 | Razor
ID: 57854118
Mon, Dec 21, 2009, 13:31
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Wow, Larry Walker is comically bad. 3 seasons with over 85 games, 5 seasons total.
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| 19 | Seattle Zen
Leader
ID: 055343019
Sat, Jan 09, 2010, 01:40
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Eric Chavez is below replacement value.
2009: Runs above replacement -4.5
Wins above replacement -0.4
Luckily for the A's, he only played in 8 games.
He didn't start the year off strong, major understatement. Check out this chart, it was the first data ever released from HitF/X. It tracked the speed that batted balls came off of bats. The average speed for non-pitchers was 75.1 MPH. Ryan Howard was crushing hardest in April with an average of 87.9 MPH. Pitchers hit the ball for an average of 66.1 MPH.
Eric Chavez... 60.0, significantly lower than Emanuel Burriss, the next worst in the bigs.
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| 20 | biliruben
ID: 461142511
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 16:38
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Why is his 2010 team, when analyzing value, set to "CHONE"?!?
I love Chone as much as anybody but perhaps Clyde, but I wouldn't play on a team owned by him.
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| 21 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 16:54
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Eight games? Come on, Sample Size. You can do better than that. How many WAR and RAR was Chavez in 2008? 2007? 2006? 2005? We need better data.
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| 22 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 16:56
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Oh, I just saw it in your link. 2008, he was better: 0.8 and 0.1. And it goes up from there. So the only season in which Eric Chavez was below average was one in which he played 8 games.
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| 23 | Razor
ID: 571022618
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 20:25
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Let's not get below average and below replacement confused.
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| 24 | Seattle Zen
Leader
ID: 055343019
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 22:35
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Let's not get below average and below replacement confused.
Thank you.
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| 25 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 10:51
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You are right. Let's not get below average and below replacement confused.
Eric Chavez was below replacement value for half a decade, which is much worse than not playing.
I think we've gone far enough down the Chavez thread. Anyone care to make two lists: the top 10 least deserving players on Neyer's list and the top 10 most deserving players not on Neyer's list?
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| 26 | filthy
ID: 461003018
Mon, Jan 18, 2010, 20:31
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From Jeff Passan:
"Athletics in Haiku:
Eric Chavez, told
Through onomatopoeia
Ouch! Crack! Snap! DL!"
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