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Subject: McGwire Comes "Clean"
Posted by: KrazyKoalaBears
- [721308] Mon, Jan 11, 2010, 15:41
McGwire Admits Steroid Use
Mark McGwire finally came clean Monday, admitting he used steroids when he broke baseball's home run record in 1998.
McGwire said in a statement sent to The Associated Press on Monday that he used steroids on and off for nearly a decade.
"I wish I had never touched steroids," McGwire said in a statement. "It was foolish and it was a mistake. I truly apologize. Looking back, I wish I had never played during the steroid era."
McGwire also used human growth hormone, a person close to McGwire said, speaking on condition of anonymity because McGwire didn't include that detail in his statement.
McGwire's decision to admit using steroids was prompted by his decision to become hitting coach of the St. Louis Cardinals, his final big league team. Tony La Russa, McGwire's manager in Oakland and St. Louis, has been among McGwire's biggest supporters and thinks returning to the field can restore the former slugger's reputation.
"I never knew when, but I always knew this day would come," McGwire said. "It's time for me to talk about the past and to confirm what people have suspected." |
| Only the 50 most recent replies are currently shown. Click on this text to display hidden posts as well. |
| 28 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 550421116
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 17:19
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imo no chance for HOF for McGwire. Steroids certainly aided his career significantly. I think there is a very good chance McGwire was on some form of steroids from his rookie year on...Oakland was definitely on the forefront of steroid use in MLB. He will gain some votes from people willing to forgive and lose some votes from those feeling betrayed. Others will cross him off the list now that he has admitted. I hate the "I used them to recover from injury" excuse...very false to me. Just come out and tell the truth...you used them to hit the ball farther and aid workouts.
The big tests for the hall will be Clemens and Bonds. Both first ballot hall of famers probably before they even started down the steroid path. I think the steroids will probably keep them out.
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| 29 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 550421116
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 17:45
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I am not sure why people think steroids were not banned in baseball before 2002?
The 1991 Fay Vincent memo specifically banned steroids.
"The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited ... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids."
Bud Selig sent the same memo in 1997.
There was no documented punishment or random testing but steroids have been banned from baseball since 1991.
Personally I believe during the height of the steroid era 97-01 a good amount of the league was on steroids. Just because it tested at ~10% in 2002 in a test that players were forewarned about and steroid use was already starting to hit the spotlight, many players were already probably off. I think it is naive to think that a good part of the league was not on steroids...
If you listen to stories from the few players who have talked they have admitted as much. MLB doctors were advising players on what to take and not to take and how to take them safely. Look up Dr Millman and Dr Solomon...MLB doctors who were advising players how to best take steroids. Info on this was also in the Mitchell report.
1998 Winter Meetings
MLB Doctors
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| 30 | Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 17:58
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What bothered me most about McGwire's admission was that he took a great deal of energy in trying to defend that he didn't need steroids to hit home runs. That he felt so compelled to TRY to protect his legacy as a ballplayer (steroids don't help hand-eye coordination, I didn't take steroids for strength purposes, etc) really took away from (at least from my perspective) what was an attempt at a contrite apology. Instead, he sounds self-serving and really hollow.
With this BS, you just stick to the basics:
- Say that you did it
- Say why, if you feel compelled to
- Say when you did it
- Admit you were wrong to do it
- Apologize sincerely
.....anything after that is subject to the old saying (paraphrasing - I'm sure the old addage is something different):
"Best to leave your mouth shut and be thought a fool......than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
Baseball, the media and the fans will judge you no matter how much you try to defend your actions. People have long forgotten about Giambi and Pettitte (to name two) because they stuck to the basics (even less so in Giambi's case) and didn't try to defend it. The rest of the cheaters need to take a freakin' clue!
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| 31 | Slizz
ID: 341022514
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 18:28
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Tree - there is something called integrity, and McGwire doesn't have it. He cheated his peers and the game itself, which is much bigger than the records he set while he played. what horrible precedent? allowing guys in the Hall who didn't violate any rules of baseball? Cheating on your significant other isn't illegal either, but its still wrong. Just like what McGwire did to the game. If were going to play the "it wasn't against the rules" type scenarios, I could go all day with examples...lol. However, I do agree with your contention that: for better or for worse, the Steroid Era is a part of baseball history. it happened, and we can't change it. While we might not be able to change it, I can only hope that the HOF voters who protect what is right about the game (i.e. The Cal Ripkens, Tony Gwynns, Hank Aarons, Greg Maddux', etc. Guys who did it right) see it that way as well.
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| 32 | Seattle Zen
ID: 1410391215
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 19:42
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I feel comfortable asserting that there is more than one player currently in the HOF who took steroids, they simply avoided any suspicion.
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| 33 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 19:42
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I'm going to bring up guys like Ty Cobb, Fergie Jenkins, and Gaylord Perry anytime someone wants to talk about Hall of Famers and "integrity".
Cobb beat up women. He beat up handicapped men. He physically assaulted fans. He choked out an umpire. He slapped a black elevator operator, called him "uppity", and then stabbed a black security guard who tried to intervene.
Jenkins was busted with coke, hash, and weed, while an active player. That didn't prevent him from getting into the HOF.
Perry doctored the ball with all manner of foreign substances on his way to the Hall of Fame.
The Hall of Fame isn't about integrity. And if it becomes that, you can start by throwing guys lie Cobb, Jenkins, and Perry out.
The Hall of Fame is about supremacy on the baseball field, and as long as players were playing within the rules - no matter how unethical their tactics were - those supreme players should be elected into the Hall of Fame.
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| 34 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 7115138
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 19:56
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I think this shows how great a pitcher Greg Maddux was. To consistently pitch as well as he did during "steroid age", speeks volumns for him. (Plus the umpires giving him 3 inches off the plate-lol).
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| 35 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 7115138
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 19:57
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33-I totally agree. Good post.
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| 36 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 20:14
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The HoF is certainly about integrity. Baseball integrity.
Gambling on baseball and steroids are qualitatively different than pretty much everything else you can name: They bring into question the level playing field, upon which talent is suppose to reign supreme. If a fan can't know whether a guy is tossing a game because of his betting, or took banned drugs to gain an unnatural physical advantage, then the game integrity is called into question.
Please note that I say nothing about player integrity. So please don't respond by answering the wrong question.
I do agree with this: and as long as players were playing within the rules - no matter how unethical their tactics were - those supreme players should be elected into the Hall of Fame.
Which is why Rose, McGwire, Canseco, etc should never be elected to the Hall.
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| 37 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 20:23
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Ty Cobb beat up umpires. Gaylord Perry doctored the baseball.
Neither of those facts can be questioned, and both bring into question their baseball integrity.
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| 38 | Razor
ID: 571022618
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 20:59
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So if the Hall has made some mistakes in the past, it's okay to make some more? Is that your argument?
Steroids were against the rules. They were cheating. They do dramatically affect the performance of players, so much so that they can take a guy who was on the brink of retirement and allow him to shatter a record that stood for 40 years.
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| 39 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 21:13
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So if the Hall has made some mistakes in the past, it's okay to make some more? Is that your argument?
nope, that's not my argument at all. I don't feel that any of those other players being elected were mistakes.
Steroids were against the rules.
Until 2005, players weren't even named, nor suspended. Perhaps against the rules, but if there isn't a serious punishment, what's the point.
prior to 2005, it wasn't even a slap on the wrist, and players who used before then, shouldn't be punished in regards to the HOF.
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| 40 | Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 21:25
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Saying that McGwire took steroids his whole career or that Bonds and Clemens were HoFs before they started juicing is as much speculation as anything else. Also, I wouldn't be so quick to cross off any names as people who definitely did not use steroids. I think it's safe to assume that several players never got caught using steroids and will go on to have HoF careers. Is it fair that these players will be elected (or have already been elected) for the reason that they were just never caught?
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| 41 | Nuclear Gophers
ID: 7115138
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 22:52
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Tree-What about spitting on an umpire. alomar. When the players went on strike in 81, I think, when they came back to play, each team played 2 practice games. The pirates played the indians in a home and home series. I umpired 2nd base in the Pittsburgh game. The Indians had a player named Joe Charbeneau(spelling). Around the fifth inning he was at bat and he was called out on strikes, he turned to go back to the dugout and the umpire turned to the other direction, all of a sudden Charbeneau turned took a step towards the umpire and spit on him. Then turned back to the dugout. It was easy for me to see because from where I was the glare of the lights illuminated the spit. I started laughing to my self. The home plate umpire never knew it umtil I told him after the game. I know Alomar and Hirshbeck have become good freinds and Alomar has helped Hirshbeck on a charity for Hirshbecks son, who is mentally disabled.
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| 42 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 22:57
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Spitting on an ump. certainly offensive, but preventing a guy from making the HoF? nah.
as for Joe Charboneau, of course i remember him. AL ROY, 1980, had a song written about him (Go, Joe, Charboneau), and was out of the Majors within 2 years.
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| 43 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 23:07
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What about spitting on an umpire. alomar
I think the fact that Alomar and the ump became good friends completely wipes out the spitting incident.
Charboneau was a folk hero in Cleveland. He played a short time, but I bet he never has to pay for a meal in Cleveland the rest of his life.
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| 44 | Mith
ID: 159201318
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 23:22
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Pretty sure Perry would have still been a pretty dominant pitcher even if he never doctored a ball. Might have gooten out of a few fewer jams, but essentially the same pitcher. I have no doubt that Ty Cobb would have been just as dominant if he never beat up any women. Take away Mac's steroids, and I'm not so sure at all that what's left is a HOFer.
This is a new opinion of mine, but for now I think that's my standard. If I were a voting member of BBWA, I could vote for Bonds, ARod and Clemens, knowing what we do. Not McGwire.
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| 45 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160
Tue, Jan 12, 2010, 23:28
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Very likely there are already players in the hall who used steroids. In fact one of the players listed in this thread as doing it right had some pretty suspect years late in his career and was the lead player on a team full of players identified as steroid users.
Just because some players got away with cheating does not mean the known cheaters should be absolved. Guess that is the chance they took when they cheated. Will be interesting to see what will happen if a player already in the hall gets identified as a user.
I still mostly blame baseball and the players union...everyone was in on the crime committed against the game. No one did anything to stop it...they just lined their pockets and closed their eyes. I really despise the unwillingness for people to come clean on the subject.
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| 46 | Mith
ID: 159201318
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 00:03
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The standard that we should just shrug our shoulders 5 years after a known PED user retires and vote for his induction based on the same standards as everyone else sends the worst possible message to the next generation of athletes wrestling with that choice for themselves; that if illegal PEDs make enough of a difference in your performance, not only might it be totally worth it, in the long run it doesn't even matter if you get caught once or twice. Stigma is a terrific incentive to stay clean.
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| 47 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 10:10
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I still mostly blame baseball and the players union...everyone was in on the crime committed against the game. No one did anything to stop it...they just lined their pockets and closed their eyes.
This. and add in the owners, trainers, managers, and quite probably a good deal of the people involved with professional baseball at many levels.
Bumping an umpire got a harsher punishment than steroids. Kicking dirt over home plate to "show up" the umpire got a harsher punishment.
i am not willing to throw players like McGwire under the bus when they were doing the same thing many others were, that most folks inside of baseball were aware of, and that everyone turned a blind eye toward.
They're all guilty of the same thing, and unless you're gonna punish the whole lot of them, I don't see how you can hang a few out to dry.
Take away Mac's steroids, and I'm not so sure at all that what's left is a HOFer.
before his 29th birthday, before two-injury plagued seasons, McGwire had 220 home runs in 6 full seasons.
In fact one of the players listed in this thread as doing it right had some pretty suspect years late in his career and was the lead player on a team full of players identified as steroid users.
i wonder if the baseball world will implode and cease to be if it ever comes out that "beloved" players like Cal Ripken or Nolan Ryan used 'roids. Considering when they played, and what they accomplished, i'm surprised there is not more suspicion on them. Then again, considering how MLB treated steroids for more than a decade, I would imagine it's easier to sacrifice guys lie McGwire, Sosa, and Canseco than it is near-gods like Ripken and Ryan.
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| 48 | Razor
ID: 57854118
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 10:33
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Ya, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa, A-Rod, Manny, Pettite and Bonds never had revered status. MLB only sacrifices those that are expendable. Clearly.
Your argument now seems to be since testing was not in place and is not perfect, we shouldn't punish anyone, even those who were caught/admitted to it. What other crimes should we extend this to?
MITH's last post was the most salient point in this thread. McGwire got zero punishment while playing for breaking the rules. And if he's let in the Hall, he'll have gotten zero punishment after admitting to cheating, to prolonging his career superficially, and to enhancing his numbers to the point of being mentioned with guys like Frank Robinson and Willie Mays.
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| 49 | Da Bomb
Donor
ID: 487112814
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 10:49
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But this was the culture of baseball. David Wells speculated that up to 40% of players were on steroids. Canseco estimated at 85%. And if you are going to leave out McGwire, then it would be totally contradictory to let in Bonds, Clemens, or Arod.
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| 50 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 10:52
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I think those numbers are pretty high--at least, they don't match the actual testing percentages. I suspect that Wells & Canseco are going by clubhouse rumors.
I would think, however, that the power hitter juice percentage is probably much higher than the rest of MLB. They should save some time and just test the #4 hitters.
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| 51 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 11:08
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McGwire got zero punishment while playing for breaking the rules.
he's got plenty of punishment. a tarnished reputation.
if you want to start punishing people retroactively, then stop being selective. Expunge the stats of Clemens, Sosa, and other retired players. Suspend A-Rod and other active players for life.
it's the unevenness that bothers me.
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| 52 | Razor
ID: 57854118
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 11:26
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None of Clemens, Sosa, A-Rod, etc are eligible for the Hall. We're talking about Hall of Fame entry here. They'll get theirs when the time comes, presumably, especially those who, like McGwire, who enhanced to get to a Hall of Fame level.
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| 53 | Mith
ID: 159201318
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 12:35
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before his 29th birthday, before two-injury plagued seasons, McGwire had 220 home runs in 6 full seasons.
Yeah, with a batting average under .250. That's what a guy on his way to the HOF looks like? Were you talking about Cecil Fielder's future induction after his first 6 full seasons, in which he hit 219 HR with a .259 ba? Roger Maris had 200 with a .264 average in his first 6 full seasons. Not a Hall of Famer. You're reaching, Tree.
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| 54 | Khahan
ID: 391582715
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 12:58
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Razor McGwire got zero punishment while playing for breaking the rules.
Stepping back in time before the admittance, before the grand jury and before his retirement, all the way back to his playing days, what rule did he break that he should be punished for?
At the time, andro was the only ped we knew he was on. And andro was not illegal under any state or federal drug laws and it was not on the banned substance list by baseball.
So what rule did he break? I'm not even sure why people are harping on what did not happen during his playing career based on what we knew at the time. There was nothing to do.
IMHO, people need to move past the whole steroid era at this point. Better testing is in place, stricter testing is in place, harsher punishments are in place. Its time to move on. Players in the 90's gamed the system because the risk was well worth the reward. That has changed. And it should keep changing and evolving. To me, the penalties still aren't strict enough.
We should learn from the mistakes of the 90's and move on. Not keep harping on people and get stuck in baseball purgatory.
I agree with the first 4 paragraphs from tree in post 47, 100%. Not gonna throw anybody under the bus. Punish them according to how the rules were back then, if they can still be applied. If not, call it a statute of limitations and move on.
If you want to withold a HoF vote, that is a personal choice for each voter to do.
But people really need to remember that this is now 2010. In 1 month the 2010 baseball season will begin. Not the 2001 baseball season.
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| 55 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 13:22
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pretty much how i feel on the topic...
One has to assume that Canseco -- if indeed he is telling the truth -- is referring to a former teammate. Otherwise how would he know for sure? For the record, Canseco played with seven players who went on to be inducted to the Hall of Fame: Nolan Ryan, Rickey Henderson, Wade Boggs, Reggie Jackson, Don Sutton, Dennis Eckersley and, um, Goose Gossage.
Question: if it is one day determined that one of those gentlemen -- or any other Hall of Famer -- did steroids like Canseco says, what then?
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| 56 | Razor
ID: 57854118
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 13:36
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So what rule did he break?
Ha. The one where steroids were illegal, both in US law and in MLB.
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| 57 | Khahan
ID: 391582715
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 13:50
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Razor, MLB maintained 2 drug policies at the time McGwire was playing:
1) Fay Vincents mandate as posted above about illegal drugs including illegal steroids.
2) A specific banned substance list.
Andro was not an illegal substance until 2004. It was able to be purchased over the counter until that time. It was not considered a controlled substance until 2005.
So, what law or rule did McGwire break in the late 1990's by using andro that he should be punished for?
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| 58 | Khahan
ID: 391582715
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 14:00
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#57, I should also add that Andro was not on baseball's banned substance list at that time. I'm not sure of the exact date it wsa added, but it was not on when McGwire was found with it.
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| 59 | barilko6
ID: 100321314
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 15:32
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Khahan...If steroids are illegal by US law, does it need to be explicitly stated within that they are illegal within the MLB rules as well?
I am pretty sure baseball doesn't have a rule against someone killing another player on the field, yet for some reason I am assuming it would be frowned upon by the front office.
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| 60 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 15:35
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barilko, the FDA declared andro to be a steroid only in 2004. Previous to that it was an OTC (over-the-counter) drug.
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| 61 | barilko6
ID: 100321314
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 15:40
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Ah ok that would make more sense then. Has McGwire ever admitted to or been proven to use anything besides Andro then?
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| 62 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 550421116
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 17:28
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uhhh...McGwire just admitted to using steroids in 89 and then started again in 93 and continued throughout the remainder of his career.
McGwire did not specifically state which steroids he used except he did try HGH...I think we can assume he used illegal steroids or there is no reason to come out with this admission of use.
Andro is a non-issue...non-story...at the time it was legal otc and not banned. No issues with him using andro then...since then it has been made illegal. Since he first started using in steroids in 89 we can safely assume it was not andro as andro was not a product yet. Seems obvious from his admission that he used illegal steroids during his career...I am sure the regulars deca durabolin...testosterone...he was injecting...
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| 63 | barilko6
ID: 100321314
Wed, Jan 13, 2010, 18:10
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Well that is what I was trying to get at in post 59, but after Perm Dude's post, I thought maybe I was mistaken with the way I read/heard his confession.
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| 65 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160
Fri, Jan 15, 2010, 17:41
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Jack Clark's take on Mark McGwire
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| 66 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160
Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 21:17
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Carlton Fisk's takes on steroids...
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| 67 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 1550160
Tue, Jan 19, 2010, 21:25
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Goose Gossage's take on steroids...
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| 68 | Razor
ID: 571022618
Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 21:59
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Fisk said what we were all thinking and what all clean players should be saying. The lack of criticism from fellow players is a mystery to me. If I were a clean player, I'd be furious that some cheater like Bonds was juiced so much that I couldn't pitch to him at all.
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| 69 | Seattle Zen
Leader
ID: 055343019
Wed, Jan 20, 2010, 22:38
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Fisk said what we were all thinking and what all clean players should be saying.
Speak for yourself, Razor. Not everyone agrees with you.
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| 70 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 550421116
Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:00
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I think this Fisk quote sums it up pretty nicely:
"You don't blame people for not ratting them out; you blame the people who abused the pharmaceutical world," Fisk said. "It's not like you are taking a couple of aspirin and you don't know what's going on. (Non-prescription steroid use has been) a federal offense for a long time, regardless of whether baseball was recognizing it and putting rules into place. The people who did it … they were breaking the law to start with. It doesn't have to be a baseball law. They knew what they were doing and the reason they were doing it. Now they are sorry because they are getting called out."
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| 71 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415
Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 11:24
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A nice rebuttal to Fisk
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| 72 | ChicagoTRS
ID: 550421116
Thu, Jan 21, 2010, 12:28
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ok rebuttal...yes there are a lot of reasons there are increased HRs...but still seems PEDs were the main contributing factor.
and...we do not know how prevalent PED use still is in MLB...players are not being tested for HGH and that seems to be a possible contributing factor in players not deteriorating as they age...maintaining strength/health.
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| 73 | Razor
ID: 57854118
Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 13:23
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As if McGwire's contention that he only took steroids to stay healthy wasn't ludicrous enough on its face, we now have his dealer calling McGwire a liar. Sorry Mac, you did the crime, now enjoy the time. The Hall won't miss you.
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| 74 | Tree, on lunch
ID: 140472012
Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 13:39
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wow. So lying about it makes it an even worse offense?
the HoF is full of miscreants, scumbags, and liars.
Heck, even Fergie Jenkins - you know, the guy busted with coke and is in the HoF, came down hard against McGwire the other day, saying it cost pitchers their careers because of what he did.
maybe we oughta go ahead and dump any records set prior to Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier, and dump all those guys from the HoF too. after all, they had an unfair advantage by not playing against the best players.
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| 75 | Khahan
ID: 391582715
Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 17:42
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I still want to know when people will quit harping on this and start moving on. Or is this just a Dec/Jan thing when there isn't any other baseball news?
Seriously, its not that we condone it. But baseball really needs to move forward. 2010 is around the corner. We are weeks away from 'pitchers and catchers report.'
Lets focus on what counts here. Make sure the 2010 season is cleaner (from a PED perspective since that is what is relevant to this thread) than 2009. They tried to make sure that 2009 was cleaner than 2008 was cleaner than 2007 etc.
When we find an cheater now, punish him accordingly - harshly and quickly.
But until we are going treat the amphetamines, coke users, ball scuffers etc the same as we are treating the ped users I say let it go. Move on.
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| 76 | Razor
ID: 571022618
Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 19:08
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You are saying "move on" like steroid abusers aren't currently eligible for Hall of Fame voting. The lion's share of the cheating may have occurred in the distant past, but the repercussions are still being hashed out.
Also, if you can point out one ball scuffer or sign stealer whose numbers were as affected as known steroid users' numbers were, I'd like to see it. Anecdotal evidence would be fine. You won't find any, so let's not try and pretend they are the same degree of cheating. Steroids involve more deceit and had a far greater impact on the game.
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| 77 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Fri, Jan 22, 2010, 22:35
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so let's not try and pretend they are the same degree of cheating. Steroids involve more deceit and had a far greater impact on the game.
1. cheating is cheating.
2. you're wrong on Steroids involving more deceit. for much of time time, steriod usage resulted in even less of a punishment than scuffing the ball. there was little in the rules banning it, unlike scuffing the balls.
no one wanted to get caught scuffing the ball, because you got suspended. if you got caught using steroids, you got...um...a pat on the back from your manager?
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| 78 | Khahan
ID: 391582715
Mon, Jan 25, 2010, 11:06
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Razor, imho, its more fair to say that steroids involved more deceit to the fans and had a greater impact on the fans.
Fans are betrayed. Fans are hurt. Fans are unhappy.
Personally, I'm tired of being hurt, betrayed and unhappy. I want Selig & Co to make sure this doesn't happen again. But I also want to stop being betrayed and hurt by people that were idols of my youth. I want to move on and find new idols.
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