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Subject: Is Chipper Jones a Hall of Famer?
Posted by: blue hen
- Dude [710321114] Wed, Jun 16, 2010, 16:53
I think he is, but there's definitely room for some good debate. |
| 1 | Razor
ID: 57854118
Wed, Jun 16, 2010, 17:00
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Yes, best 3B of the generation and then some. Very good counting and rate stats. MVP, World Series title and stalwart on a team that made the playoffs consistently for a long time.
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| 2 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Wed, Jun 16, 2010, 17:03
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This has come up before. I don't think there is much debate that he deserves consideration, even if he limps through the rest of this year.
There are plenty of the right numbers (.306 career average, 430 + home runs, .537 slugging) plus externals (WS ring, 2 silver slugger awards, plus his NL MVP, of course).
If he turns it around and has a good rest of the season, he should be just fine--his counting numbers (already good) will all get a boost.
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| 3 | Great One
ID: 47515621
Wed, Jun 16, 2010, 17:30
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Chipper is a Hall of Famer.
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| 4 | Bond, James Bond
Leader
ID: 04352469
Wed, Jun 16, 2010, 23:05
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Yes. Next question...
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| 5 | Judy
ID: 54203110
Wed, Jun 16, 2010, 23:31
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It sounds to me like he might do a mike schmidtie and quit
mid year?????
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| 6 | barilko6
ID: 35581622
Wed, Jun 16, 2010, 23:58
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Yes. Next question...
Alright...will Jamie Moyer get 300 wins?
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| 7 | Great One
ID: 47515621
Wed, Jun 16, 2010, 23:59
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If he never stops pitching, then sure, eventually.
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| 8 | R9
ID: 2854239
Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 06:39
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Hah, thats a fun question. At how many wins does Moyer become a HOF'er?
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| 9 | weykool
Leader
ID: 41750315
Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 07:41
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Hah, thats a fun question. At how many wins does Moyer become a HOF'er?
512
But he also gets the award named after him.
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| 10 | Bond, James Bond
Leader
ID: 04352469
Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 08:43
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6....Nope.....next question...
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| 11 | Bond, James Bond
Leader
ID: 04352469
Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 08:50
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Speaking of HOFers, many of us know that Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Grover Cleveland Alexander and Christy Matthewson are the top four in total victories.
At #5 is a guy by the name of Pud Galvin. I had never heard of him before yesterday. But check this out. Some good info there...if true. LOL
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| 12 | skinneej
Leader
ID: 040625911
Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 09:42
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Nice! I wonder if that generation of ballplayers would have become known as the "Monkey Testosterone" era if the 24 hour media coverage had existed then!
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| 13 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 09:56
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Wait, Chipper only won two Silver Slugger awards? I want to revisit the "best 3B of the generation" comment. He's clearly not the best 3B of the 2004-2010 era, because that's Alex Rodriguez. And I think you have to put David Wright ahead of Chipper in that same time frame, although I won't argue much if you disagree. Prior to 2004, Albert Pujols spent some time at third, so it's hard to make the case there either. Before Pujols, Vinny Castilla and Troy Glaus won Silver Sluggers (plus Chipper), but all that does it hurts the validity of the award.
All told, I think it's a difficult statement to make that he's the best of the generation. But I'm pretty sure he's a Hall of Famer (and MUCH better than Andre Dawson or Jim Rice).
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| 14 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 10:50
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Prior to 2004, Albert Pujols spent some time at third, so it's hard to make the case there either.
and he's also spent time at second base and SS - are you going to call him the best 2B of his generation? come on - Pujols has played less than 100 games at 3B IN HIS CAREER - you can hardly consider him a 3B.
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| 15 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 11:00
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Tree: hen's point is that Pujols won a Silver Slugger award at third base. We don't really consider him a 3rd baseman, but he played long enough to win a positionally-based award in any case.
Chipper was a solid steady presence on a team which made the postseason an incredible 14 years in a row. Yeah, he's in there.
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| 16 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 13:35
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Chipper never played a single game at second. He's played 49 games at short (41 starts, and about half as many as Pujols played at third) and 365 games in the outfield.
My point was that it's hard to describe him as the best third baseman of his generation.
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| 17 | Great One
ID: 455141711
Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 15:34
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yahoo article... And one final comment: All signs point to a Chipper Jones(notes) retirement announcement, perhaps coming soon. He's hitting just .234 through 53 games. That sort of protracted slump is surely a difficult thing for a former batting champ to deal with.Not surprisingly, many of the Jones retirement stories — like this one for example — have Web polls attached, asking whether or not Chipper is a future Hall of Famer. People should simply not be allowed to vote "NO" on that issue. The only appropriate responses are "YES" or "HELL YES" or "THAT'S AN IDIOTIC QUESTION AND [expletive] YES."
Jones isn't some fringe Hall of Famer; he's an inner circle member. In fact, there should be exclusive inner circle events to which Chipper is invited and Wade Boggs isn't. He should be no lower than fifth on anyone's list of the best third basemen in baseball history. (Alex Rodriguez(notes) may complicate that discussion eventually, but to date, A-Rod has spent more time at short). Jones is 29th on the all-time career OPS list (.942), ahead of every other third baseman. He's also 39th on the home run list (430), ranking ahead of every player at his position except Mike Schmidt and Eddie Mathews. Among active players, Chipper is third in career wins-above-replacement (77.9).
Even at age 38, in a season that hasn't met his insanely high standards, he's still reaching base at a .378 clip. There's just no reasonable argument to exclude him from the Hall. If you owned him back in '99, when he delivered a 116-45-110-25-.316 fantasy line, then you're willing to waive the waiting period.
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| 18 | Great One
ID: 455141711
Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 15:57
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Who was a better 3B from 1995 until 2008? I'd say with playing a minimum of 80% of their games played at that position.
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| 19 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 16:20
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I like that article - my vote is HELL YES. And I guess you're right - it's hard to find someone who was better from 1995-2010 as a third baseman.
What of ARod? He is just about split between third and short. Is he in the 3B discussion? Or in the overall player one?
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| 20 | Great One
ID: 47515621
Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 18:11
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He will probably the best 3B in the years he played there, for sure... just a different group of years.
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| 21 | holt
Donor
ID: 308491916
Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 23:31
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there should be exclusive inner circle events to which Chipper is invited and Wade Boggs isn't.
Whoaaaa. You could have picked a better example than Boggs. Boggs was exceptional. .328 .415 .443 career numbers. Boggs leads Jones in a quite a few stat categories; 553 more hits, more walks, more runs, more doubles, more triples, fewer K's. Chipper has him in HR, RBI, and slug. Their OPS+ numbers are pretty close. Boggs was a better defensive third baseman. Overall I'd put them pretty close together in terms of historical stature.
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| 22 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Jun 17, 2010, 23:34
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Boggs was also much better defensively than Chipper.
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| 23 | Bond, James Bond
Leader
ID: 04352469
Fri, Jun 18, 2010, 01:55
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Another one of Chipper's fan club speaks out
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| 24 | Mith
ID: 37540118
Fri, Jun 18, 2010, 09:49
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Chipper Jones, who played his whole career in the juiced ball era, does not rank above Boggs on the list of great third basemen.
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| 25 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Fri, Jun 18, 2010, 09:53
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I wasn't aware that the ball was juiced. I had thought that accusation went to some of the players.
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| 26 | Razor
ID: 57854118
Fri, Jun 18, 2010, 10:02
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Don't listen to Mith. He's a long time Red Sox lover.
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| 27 | filthy
ID: 591332022
Fri, Jun 18, 2010, 17:41
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there should be exclusive inner circle events to which Chipper is invited and Wade Boggs isn't.
That may not be a slight to Boggs stats. If the legend of Boggs is true, there may already be events that Boggs isn't invited to.
Chipper seems like a shoo-in, but I don't see why he can't still be valuable for a couple more years, at least in a platoon role. There is still a portion of the voters that would probably need to see some more counting stats to be won over. I can't see Chipper retiring, he is just trying to be like Favre and get people talking about his great career to distract from his recent decline.
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| 28 | holt
Donor
ID: 308491916
Sat, Jun 19, 2010, 13:38
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WOW - is there a beer drinking hall of fame?
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| 29 | clv
Sustainer
ID: 5911351713
Mon, Jun 21, 2010, 13:30
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Obviously I'm not objective when it comes to Chipper (and most Braves' legends), but I really don't think I'd say there's "good" debate. EVERY player placed on the ballot deserves to be debated, but like him or not, let's don't kid ourselves. Not only is he going in, but I'd venture that he's also a lock to be in on the first ballot.
Several unavoidable nagging injuries have piled up over time, and Chipper was never the most durable guy to begin with, but his slide has really come on suddenly as his body caves in and he's been unfairly asked to carry offenses that were either too young an inexperienced or simply not good at all.
For debate, I'll toss out the fact that the general consensus is that he's one of the 3 best switch-hitters of all time, and I personally rank him ahead of Eddie Murray (insert homer comment here).
Up until the 2008 season, he was still capable of carrying an offense, and his age 38 numbers speak for themselves - .364 average (4th highest average by a 38 year old behind Zack Wheat, Babe Ruth, and Nap Lajoie - the only other players in the Top 10 in that category since 1937 were Ted Williams in 1955, Stan Musial in 1957, and Gwynn in 1996), .470 OBP (5th highest by a player that age behind Bonds, Ted Williams, Ruth, and McGwire), .574 Slugging % (tied for 9th highest by a player that age with a guy named Aaron - the others on that list were Bonds, McGwire, Williams, Musial, Ruth, Manny, Andres Galarraga, and Eric Davis), 1.044 OPS (5th on that list behind Bonds, McGwire, Williams, and Ruth - ahead of Musial, 176 Adjusted OPS+ (tied for 5th on that list with Cap Anson (1888) behind Bonds, Ruth, Williams, and McGwire, 55 Adjusted Batting Runs (tied for 5th on that list with Musial behind Bonds, Ruth, Williams, and Manny), 5.1 Adjusted Batting Wins (7th on that list behind Bonds, Ruth, Williams, Musial, Anson, and Manny), .818 Offensive Win % (6th on that list behind Bonds, Williams, Ruth, McGwire, and Anson).
Seeing the pattern? The end has just come quickly as the injuries have taken their toll.
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| 30 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Mon, Jun 21, 2010, 13:51
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If his age 38 numbers speak for themselves, why did you enumerate them? You're right that he had a great season, and that's yet another reason why he should be a Hall of Famer, but isn't he playing in an era where 38 year olds are doing things they've never done before?
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| 31 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Aug 12, 2010, 17:27
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Chipper done for the year, perhaps for his career. At least he went out with a kickass play.
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| 32 | blue hen
ID: 266191021
Sat, Aug 14, 2010, 12:59
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Now he says he'll play next year. Either way, I feel pretty confident saying he has amassed proper Hall of Fame numbers.
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