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0 Subject: Is Jeff Bagwell a Hall of Famer?

Posted by: blue hen
- [266191021] Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 19:54

Now that Andre Dawson's in, it's time to discuss Bagwell. 1991 Rookie of the Year, 1994 MVP, and his only World Series "appearance" was 2005. Cooperstown? Discuss.
1DWetzel
      ID: 33337117
      Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 20:12
My first answer to this was "no, he's just a bit short" but after digging a bit further, I changed my answer to yes. Comparisons to Frank Thomas, who I think most put in the HOF, were quite interesting. Bagwell was a marginally worse hitter, but of course a much better fielder.

If you believe in things like WAR, Bagwell actually comes out a bit higher on the career WAR total despite a shorter career.
2Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 20:22
The only problem is the era he played in. His career basically spanned the juiced ball era. That said he'd have my vote in his second year of eligibility.
3Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 20:58
Why? What would change in his statistics between the first and second year?
4Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 21:19
I subscribe to the old school thinking that induction in a players' first year of eligibility should be reserved for the most elite HOF careers. It should serve as an extra honor and usefully distinguish the best of the best. More and more, the distinction of being a "first ballot" Hall of Famer is losing it's meaning.
5Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 23:47
Maybe because fewer and fewer voters believe that--you either are a HoF player or you aren't, IMO.
6Khahan
      ID: 13126822
      Mon, Jul 26, 2010, 00:12
Agree with PD 100% here. In fact, I think MITH and I have had this discussion in another thread in the past year or so.

7Khahan
      ID: 13126822
      Mon, Jul 26, 2010, 00:13
Oh and yes. I think he's a HoF caliber player.
8Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Mon, Jul 26, 2010, 00:13
That seems to be the increasingly prevalent opinion.

Personally I believe a traditionally established and concrete distinction in status between a player like Stan Musial and a player like Tony Perez is a good thing.
9blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Mon, Jul 26, 2010, 10:35
There's already a distinction - Hall of Famer vs. Not Hall of Famer. Nowadays, the Hall doors are opened so wide that many are seeking to find another level of distinction. To me, Andre Dawson falls far short. I don't think there was any point in Dawson's career where he was better than Tim Raines.

As for Bagwell, he has my vote, but he's much more interesting to discuss than Chipper Jones. As a first baseman with power, he is overshadowed by many of his contemporaries, steroids or not. More than steroids, the late-career injuries also hurt his cause. Good fielder, decent basestealer for a first baseman, and a ton of walks do offset that. 202 career steals and 1400 career walks, if you were wondering. Higher career OPS+ than Alex Rodriguez (and tied with Ralph Kiner).

So, yes.
10Toral
      ID: 526301920
      Mon, Jul 26, 2010, 16:32
I rather like first-ballot status as a de facto Inner Circle distinction, even though I don't believe in voting that way and wouldn't myself. Schizophrenic, I suppose.
11Khahan
      ID: 13126822
      Tue, Jul 27, 2010, 00:15
I agree with you Toral, I think I know what you are getting at. Those who got in on the first vote are seen as a special class of HoFer. But voters should not 'rig' the vote. Let it happen naturally.
12Mith
      ID: 44658279
      Tue, Jul 27, 2010, 11:45
Let it happen naturally.

Actually I don't think that was Toral's position. I think he acknowledges that his preference for "de facto Inner Circle distinction" is somewhat contradictory to his opposition to voting that way.

There can't be anything special about first ballot inductees if no such distinction is made by the voters at the time that they vote.

And 'rigging' a vote implies cheating, which has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
13Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Jul 27, 2010, 12:04
No MITH, rigging the vote doesn't imply cheating. Rigging the vote simply means manipulating it to some pre-determined end. Cheating is one method of rigging it, but not the only. I don't think withholding your vote to keep somebody from a first ballot induction is cheating, but I do think its rather disengenious.

If you think somebody is a HoF'er, cast your vote for him. If enough people agree, he gets in. And if enough people agree right away, he gets in on the first ballot. Thats letting it happen naturally.
14Great One
      ID: 38649207
      Tue, Jul 27, 2010, 12:08
Yeah, not the guy who didn't vote for Cal Ripken on his first ballot or whoever... that guy should just lose his right to vote altogether.
16blue hen
      ID: 266191021
      Sat, Jul 31, 2010, 16:58
I'd rather have Mattingly than Dawson. Anyone want to make a case against Bagwell?
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