| 0 |
Subject: Hall of Fame Class of 2011
Posted by: JeffG
- Dude [01584348] Mon, Nov 08, 2010, 16:31
This year's Veteran's Committe ballot (3 year cycle) includes players, managers, umpires, executives whose most significant impact was from 1973.
Results announced December 6. Veterans Comittee Ballot has the following 12 nominees, must appear on 75% of the 16 ballots for enshrinement:
Vida Blue, Dave Concepcion, Steve Garvey, Pat Gillick, Ron Guidry, Tommy John, Billy Martin, Marvin Miller, Al Oliver, Ted Simmons, Rusty Staub, George Steinbrenner
Next year they vote on a list from 1947-1972, the year after 1871-1946 and then it cycles back.
The 2011 BBWA nominees includes those who had 5% or more last year and have not yet hit 15 years as a nominee.
Bert Blyleven, Roberto Alomar, Jack Morris, Barry Larkin,Lee Smith, Edgar Martinez, Tim Raines, Mark McGwire, Alan Trammell, Fred McGriff, Don Mattingly, Dave Parker, Dale Murphy, Harold Baines
Plus 2011 first time nominees:
Jeff Bagwell, Rafael Palmeiro, John Olerud, Kevin Brown, Larry Walker, Juan Gonzalez, Tino Martinez, B.J. Surhoff, Marquis Grissom, John Franco, Bret Boone, Al Leiter, Benito Santiago, Carlos Baerga, Raul Mondesi, Bobby Higginson, Wilson Alvarez, Rey Sanchez, Charles Johnson, Jose Offerman, Ugueth Urbina, Ismael Valdez, Dan Wilson, Paul Quantrill, Cal Eldred, Kirk Rueter, Steve Reed |
Only the 50 most recent replies are currently shown. Click on this text to display hidden posts as well.
[Lengthy or complex threads may require a slight delay before updating.] |
| 129 | Khahan
ID: 373143013
Mon, Nov 29, 2010, 16:20
|
gotta agree. I don't see Edgar getting in.
|
| 130 | Mith
ID: 28646259
Mon, Nov 29, 2010, 19:34
|
Who was the last person to get over 36% of the vote on his first ballot and not get inducted? Has it ever happened?
|
| 131 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Mon, Nov 29, 2010, 21:09
|
Always a first time.
For many decades, the writers were discouraged from voting for any first ballot players, no matter who they were. Bob Feller was the first first ballot player since the original (1936) induction class.
|
| 132 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 16:28
|
Ron Santo rules
|
| 133 | Seattle Zen
Leader
ID: 055343019
Mon, Dec 06, 2010, 10:40
|
The abomination continues.
Stand Pat gets voted in while Marvin Miller ends up one vote short. Someone needs to be shot.
|
| 134 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Mon, Dec 06, 2010, 10:46
|
Wow. He probably would have gotten in, IMO, if he hadn't asked to be excluded.
|
| 135 | Seattle Zen
Leader
ID: 055343019
Fri, Dec 31, 2010, 13:28
|
Larry Walker should be in the HOF.
|
| 136 | blue hen
ID: 266191021
Mon, Jan 03, 2011, 23:12
|
Joe Posnanski had a pretty convincing case for Larry Walker on his website. I am now officially "on the fence" with Walker, which is a significant step after being on the "no" side for the most part.
Posnanski also made a pretty good argument for Kevin Brown, who obviously falls short, and Posnanski admits that. I think his reputation is only going to get worse with time due to the magnificent nature of his clutch failures (which aren't nearly as big a deal as his injuries).
One last thing - did you know that Bert Blyleven and Jack Morris actually faced each other in the 1987 postseason? Guess who won?
|
| 137 | Seattle Zen
ID: 10732616
Wed, Jan 05, 2011, 14:11
|
It's Robbie Alomar and Bert Blyleven. Congratulations to both of them.
|
| 138 | Farn
Leader
ID: 451044109
Wed, Jan 05, 2011, 14:54
|
Congrats to both. After missing out last year it was great to see them have such a great bounce back year in 2010 and make their way in to the HOF.
Maybe Jack Morris and Barry Larkin can give them a call and see what they need to do in 2011 to get in.
|
| 139 | Electroman
ID: 3170417
Wed, Jan 05, 2011, 16:05
|
My question after seeing the rusults are,Who are the two guys that voted for B.J. Surhoff?
|
| 140 | Seattle Zen
ID: 10732616
Wed, Jan 05, 2011, 16:25
|
My question after seeing the results are,Who are the two guys that voted for B.J. Surhoff?
Well, one guy is named Barry Stanton of ESPN and he put together the WORST ballot I have ever seen.
No Alomar or Blyleven, but BJ Surhoff, Tino Martinez, Jack Morris, Edgar Martinez, and DON MATTINGLY? You've got to be kidding me. He has no respect for the Hall, period.
|
| 141 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Wed, Jan 05, 2011, 16:25
|
One is Barry Stanton, who also voted for Tino Martinez, but not Blyleven, Alomar, Raines, Larkin, or Bagwell. I think he might have punched the wrong holes, accidentally.
|
| 142 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Wed, Jan 05, 2011, 16:36
|
Hanging chads, anyone?
|
| 143 | blue hen
Dude
ID: 710321114
Wed, Jan 05, 2011, 16:55
|
More info. Barry Stanton used to work for Surhoff's local paper. Maybe they made a deal in the 80s. Of course, Stanton got fired for plagiarizing Joe Posnanski in 1992.
|
| 144 | Electroman
ID: 3170417
Wed, Jan 05, 2011, 16:56
|
Wow, he must have an agenda or something. If you do though, just don't vote, and lose your vote. That is more of a repectable statement than the ballot he submitted.
|
| 145 | KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 517068
Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 08:47
|
Count me as one who doesn't get the Blyleven induction. He only made the All-Star team twice in 22 seasons and never won a Cy Young award. The closest he came to a Cy Young was 3rd place in 1984, when he couldn't beat out two relievers.
He also...
...never led the league in ERA
...never led the league in Wins
...never led the league in K/9
...led the league once in K
...led the league once in WHIP
...led the league once in CG
...led the league twice in IP
...led the league three times in Shutouts
It just doesn't add up for me when I think of the Hall of FAME.
|
| 146 | Electroman
Donor
ID: 010833614
Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 09:16
|
And if he is borderline, Jack Morris is not.
|
| 147 | R9
ID: 2854239
Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 09:28
|
Blyleven would've been the only member of the 3000 strikeout club not to make the Hall. (There are a few active/soon to be voted on guys who are shoo-ins. Schilling is the only ?)
He had a similar statistical career to Ferguson Jenkins. Neither is what I think of either when I think of the best of the best, but someone has to be in the lower tier of the HOF. Its also not like he got in in the first few ballots. Him taking this long is just about right imo.
|
| 148 | Mith
ID: 4010542612
Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 09:58
|
The Hall of Longevity.
|
| 149 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 10:01
|
Blyleven was pretty damn good over a long period of time. His Wins Above Replacement is 13th all time for pitchers. He was 5th all time in Ks. Those that played against the guy are pretty clear that he had HoF stuff.
The Hall of Fame isn't about single season stuff (though leading the league in something is a plus, that's for sure). He never lead his league in ERA any year, yet the guy was top 5 in ERA 7 different years. 14 years in the top 5 in K's. 7 years also for WHIP (top 5). 14 years he was top ten in K/9.
The guy was seriously good for a long time.
|
| 150 | Mith
ID: 4010542612
Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 10:20
|
Those that played against the guy are pretty clear that he had HoF stuff.
I think this is something I hear said about a lot of borderline HOFers. I don't mean to totally discredit the point but have you ever heard a borderline HOF described as falling short by a peer?
I think no one disagrees he was pretty damn good over a long period of time. I think some of us feel the standard should be focused a little differently. But we're the minority; the people trusted with the responsibility to define the Hall came around to find he fits the bill. I'm used to the disappointment.
|
| 151 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 10:26
|
Good point. This simply might be media self-filtering--the sports media isn't exactly digging deep on the topic. Or any other, for that matter.
|
| 152 | KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 517068
Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 11:02
|
I really think Blyleven and several others have been (unduly?) helped by all the issues of the "steroid era."
The Congressional steroid hearings occurred in March 2005. Outside of obvious HoFers making it on their 1st or 2nd ballot (Alomar, Henderson, Ripken, and Gwynn), the following players have been inducted in the 6 years since the hearings:
Bert Blyleven (14th YOB)
Andre Dawson (9th; Lone Inductee)
Jim Rice (15th)
Goose Gossage (9th; LI)
Bruce Sutter (13th; LI)
The six years before that?...
Wade Boggs (1st)
Ryan Sandberg (3rd)
Paul Molitor (1st)
Dennis Eckersley (1st)
Eddie Murray (1st)
Gary Carter (6th)
Ozzie Smith (1st)
Dave Winfield (1st)
Kirby Puckett (1st)
Carlton Fisk (2nd)
Tony Perez (9th)
Looking back at 2000 (Fisk and Perez), the next four after them eventually made it in and all but Carter are in that top list (Rice, Sutter, and Gossage). Blyleven was the only other future HoFer receiving votes that year and was 13th in his 3rd YOB.
I suppose there is an added amount of respect that SHOULD be given to those who preceded the "steroid era," but this is starting to come across more like "Screw McGwire, Bagwell, Palmeiro, and the other users or suspected users!" as opposed to "Bert Blyleven, Bruce Sutter, and Jim Rice deserve to be in the Hall of Fame!" and I think that starts to hurt the credibility of both the BBWAA and the HoF.
|
| 153 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 11:20
|
You think? Blyleven's HOF voting numbers have been fairly steadily increasing since his first year of 1998. Maybe people are voting for Blyleven instead of others who might be steroidally-tainted, but no one is required to vote for anyone.
There might be some anecdotal information about there for people voting for Blyleven than McGuire (for instance) but I haven't heard it.
|
| 154 | Seattle Zen
Leader
ID: 055343019
Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 11:30
|
If it was the Hall of Longevity, Jim Kaat would have been inducted. And KKB, you sound inclined to support Dwight Gooden's introduction.
Post 152 - I don't see how the past 12 years of HOF entries has changed at all. From 99-05 there were 7 first ballot inductees. Since then, three. Eyeballing the two lists, that seems about right. The writers may very well be saying "screw McGwire, et.al.," I don't see any evidence in your post.
|
| 155 | KrazyKoalaBears
ID: 517068
Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 11:53
|
RE: 154, Dwight Gooden would be VERY fringe for me, but that's just off the top of my head. I honestly haven't looked at his stats enough to gauge one way or the other. Looking him up, I do see that he didn't garner enough support to even get a second year on the ballot, for whatever that's worth.
About #152, there's a clear change after the Congressional hearings occurred. Remove all the 1st and 2nd ballot players and you're left with the following average Years on Ballot:
6 years before hearings: 6.0 (3 players)
6 years since hearings: 12.0 (5 players)
That's a pretty sizable difference. And the fact that there were 3 lone inductees in the 6 years since with YOB of 9, 9, and 13 is a big statement as well. In the 6 years prior to the hearings, the only lone inductee (lone lone inductee?) was Ozzie Smith in his first YOB.
|
| 156 | R9
ID: 2854239
Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 12:16
|
I still don't see the purported bias either. Sure, lots of voters are shunning the roiders. That doesn't require them to vote for someone else in their place. A writers' ballot this year could've looked like this:
1) Roberto Alomar
2) Bert Blyleven
And be handed in like that. I also have never read an article from a voter who said he felt the need to fill out all 10 spots. So there are two different things at work here, and I think you are trying to merge them into the same thing.
|
| 157 | loki
SuperDude
ID: 4211201420
Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 14:45
|
If you are from the NYC area you should recall Len Berman the NBC sportscaster who was fired because of his large salary. His web site had the following take on this year's HOF inductees:
2. The Fame Game
Here's today's Hall of Fame quiz.
1. Do you consider Bert Blyleven one of the greatest pitchers of all time?
2. Do you consider Roberto Alomar one of the greatest infielders of all time?
3. If Blyleven wasn't a Hall of Famer the last 13 times they voted, what suddenly turned him into a Hall of Famer on the 14th try?
4. When you think of Roberto Alomar, is the first thing that comes to mind his spitting in the face of umpire John Hirschbeck?
5. When you think of Bert Blyleven, is the first thing that comes to mind all the gopher balls he yielded?
(My answers. No, no, nothing, yes, yes.)
By the way, Rafael "I never took steroids" Palmeiro, who certainly has "Hall of Fame" stats didn't come close. It's poetic justice that Don Mattingly got more votes than he.
ThatsSports.com
|
| 158 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 15:09
|
There are lots and lots and lots of Hall of Famers who didn't make first ballot election. The Hall, in fact, went from 1937 through 1961 without electing anyone to the Hall on the first ballot. The feeling for a long time was that first ballot players didn't deserve it.
Any difference in a player's stats between first and second ballot as far as deserving to be in the Hall? Of course not.
The first page of this pdf lists Hall of Famers by Induction Year. By Berman's standards, no one from 1936 through Feller should be in the Hall because they didn't make it the first time.
I agree with the spitting episode being a defining moment for Alomar. I also believe (unmentioned by Berman) that the reconciliation between Alomar and the umpire in question needs to be mentioned as well.
|
| 159 | Seattle Zen
ID: 10732616
Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 16:01
|
Re: 155
Yes, in the past six years we have seen more players get inducted after being on the ballot for many years. Without more, I don't think you can come your conclusion that this is a response to the Steroid Era. I think it has a lot more to do with the random fact that fewer amazing superstars retired 2000-2005.
Loki: Better questions to ask are:
Is Bert Blyleven better than Ferguson Jenkins, Don Sutton, Bruce Sutter, and other recent inductees? (The answer is "yes")
With the recent sabermetical emphasis on the import of striking out batters, should a pitcher who is fifth all time in strike outs be a HOF? (The answer is "yes")
The first thing I think about when I hear the name Bert Blyleven was a pitcher who was awesome at age nineteen and at age 38, another way of describing a HOFer.
|
| 160 | loki
SuperDude
ID: 4211201420
Thu, Jan 06, 2011, 21:26
|
Re: 159- My criterion for the HOF is that the inductee be an all time great, maybe not Ruth, Gehrig, Johnson, Koufax, etc., but really great. Very few of the recent inductees including the class of 2011 fit.
|
| 161 | Mith
ID: 371138719
Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 00:18
|
Jim Kaat's eligibility occurred to early to get into the Hall of Longevity.
As has been discussed here previously, Mike Mussina matches up quite favorably with Blyleven. He had a much better K-rate and K/BB rate and was among the league's better SPs at least as frequently as Blyleven, in CY Young contention notably more often. They had comparable ERA, WHIP, hit rates, ERA+ and W. The primary differences between the two are Blyleven's 1500 additional IP (for which he has to show only 900 more Ks but 1200 more hits and 530 more walks) Blyleven's 2 WS rings, and the difference in the competition they faced. Moose might also get a few extra points for going out on top of his game.
I personally don't think either has strong HOF credentials but in my opinion Blyleven's induction paves the way for Mussina, making him a very likely eventual HOFer. When it comes time weigh Moose's career, he's going to be compared with the most recently inducted modern era HOF SPs with under 300 wins. It's going to be very hard to look at Blyleven and Jenkins and find many good reasons for why they make the cut and Moose doesn't.
And somewhere down the road, the Veterans Committee is going to come to the conclusion that Jim Kaat belongs in a HOF that includes Fergie Jenkins, Jim Bunning Bert Blyleven and Mike Mussina.
|
| 162 | Mith
ID: 371138719
Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 00:29
|
The first thing I think about when I hear the name Bert Blyleven was a pitcher who was awesome at age nineteen and at age 38, another way of describing a HOFer.
Is awesome at age 23 and at age 39 close enough?
|
| 163 | Seattle Zen
Leader
ID: 055343019
Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 01:31
|
You may be right about the Moose, he and Bert are pretty similar.
|
| 164 | filthy
ID: 568191312
Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 02:05
|
Why did Mussina retire after a 200 inning 20 win season? Age seems logical, but he could have clinged on for another year or two to clinch his case, couldn't he? That alone clinches his case for me. Will he get enough votes when on the ballot next to Maddux and Glavine though, maybe even Schilling and Clemens too. Then the following year will be Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, and John Smoltz. Tough crowd.
Mussina definitely will not be voted in right away but it would be outrageous if he didn't earn enough support to stay on the ballot for future consideration.
BTW: Awesome at 19 is rare and impressive. That gives Blyleven the edge in a Mussina comparison. Fergie Jenkins is a very good Mussina comparison though.
|
| 165 | filthy
ID: 568191312
Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 02:53
|
Re: Alomar one of the greatest infielders of all time?
Best second basemen in the last 50 years: Probably Morgan, Sandberg, Alomar, Biggio.
Not that it even needs to be debated but, Alomar was the key bat for four different offensive powerhouses in his career with stunning defense at second. Remember when Toronto was good, they had Alomar. Remember when Baltimore was good, they had Alomar. Remember when Cleveland was good, they had Alomar. Remember when the Mets were good, they had Alomar. Then there's the spitting thing for those that want to ignore all the winning.
|
| 166 | Mith
ID: 371138719
Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 02:56
|
I suspect Moose gets in after 6 - 10 years. After the flurry of great SPs becomming eligible in the next few years, the well dries up for a while. Among pitchers listed as active, Moyer, Pettitte and Wakefield are all at the brink of retirement and lead the wins category with 267, 240 and 193, respectively. None are likely HOFers in my opinion.
Looking down the list of active win leaders from there, you don't find a lot of HOF cases. Maybe Tim Hudson or Roy Oswalt if either can string together a few very good seasons at the end of their career. But both seem like an awful stretch to me. Sabathia with 157 wins and a respectable list of accolades at age 29 seems like he could be on his way, though that induction would be at least 10 years from now and of course I wouldn't bet on the longevity of any pitcher with that body type.
After CC, any pitcher who looks good enough to possibly be on his way to eventual induction has at least another decade left in his playing career if he is to have a shot.
|
| 167 | filthy
ID: 568191312
Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 03:02
|
130: Edgar went down in year 2. Crazy stuff.
Lee Smith started out at 42.3% and may not reach 75 at all. Garvey started at 41.6% and didn't make it. Edgar at 36.2% would be the 3rd highest debut that doesn't make it if trends continue. Tiant, Wills, Mattingly, Hodges, McGwire all had semi-strong debuts (+23%) and either didn't make it or likely will not make it. Tim Raines started out at 24.3% but suddenly has a strong case growing. Still time for Smith, Edgar, Mattingly, McGwire too I suppose.
|
| 168 | Mith
ID: 371138719
Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 03:10
|
I don't think a drop of 3.3% is significant one way or the other for Edgar. Some players are just made to wait and I happen to think that's apropriate for sub-elite inductees. I think Smith has time. Mattingly almost definitely does not, with only 4 years left on the ballot.
|
| 169 | filthy
ID: 568191312
Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 03:29
|
Next year's only new addition to the voting that should get any votes is Bernie Williams. There should be a spike in most of the returning names numbers next year.
Edgar will probably top his first year's vote. Lee Smith could see a nice surge, and looks like he just might slide in on his 14th or 15th try. Mattingly will stay on the ballot but doubtful that he even tops his first year's vote at any time. McGwire needs to see some momentum next year for any hope at all. Raines and Larkin are gaining steam early enough to look like locks. Morris looks like another photo finish. Murphy, Trammell and McGriff look to be stuck in limbo with Mattingly for all 15 years. Key years next year for Bagwell, Walker, and even JuanGone and Palmeiro.
|
| 170 | R9
ID: 2854239
Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 08:31
|
I think people who only want the Hall to be for truely great players need to examine the process a bit better. If all you really want is a list of the best-of-the-best in baseball history, go print out a list of all 1st ballot inductees. Pretty sure that will be the best-of-the-best.
After that, there's no reason why some lesser players cannot also be recognized for being better then 90%+ of their peers for a long while. Nobody is going to talk about Maddux and Blyleven in the same breath, even if both are in the Hall. We all know who was better, and for people in 100 years who have never heard of either yet, a simple look at what year of eligibility they were elected in will be a big clue to indicate who was better.
Do I think of Blyleven when I think of the best pitchers of all time? No. Was he still not one of the better pitchers of his generation? Yes he was. There should be room to recognize both.
|
| 171 | blue hen
ID: 710321114
Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 10:59
|
I think I've changed my stripes in recent years, to be on the inclusive side. That doesn't mean B.J. Surhoff, but I really think there is plenty of room for star players, even if they weren't the best of the best. In addition to Kevin Brown, I feel like there are pretty strong cases for Dwight Gooden and people like that. There are twice as many teams now so I'm fine with twice as many candidates.
|
| 172 | Razor
ID: 57854118
Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 11:39
|
Kevin Brown is an obvious no. So is Dwight Gooden. Come on, people. Gooden isn't even close.
|
| 173 | blue hen
ID: 710321114
Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 11:56
|
I said the same thing. Is Dwight Gooden as good as Bert Blyleven? No. But when I take Blue Hen III to the Hall of Fame in 50 years, do I want to see a plaque for Dwight Gooden? Yes, I think I do.
|
| 174 | Mith
ID: 4010542612
Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 12:05
|
Bert Blyleven and Mike Mussina? Meh, not so much...
|
| 175 | blue hen
ID: 710321114
Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 12:18
|
Oh, them too. They were an important part of baseball in my lifetime.
|
| 176 | Khahan
ID: 373143013
Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 12:55
|
I think its current standards are a pretty good level. The creme of the crop gets in as do a good number of really great players that were either under appreciated or where the lower levels of great.
Guys like kevin brown and Edgar martinez get in the debate (though I don't think either of them belong in the hall) which is very good. They deserve that recognition to be considered.
Raising the bar too high excludes too many deserving players (case in point is blyleven who should have been in years ago). But dropping it too low diminishing the value of getting into the Hall. Its at a good place.
|
| 177 | darkside
ID: 3590317
Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 20:12
|
Interesting breakdown of the choices made by a first time voter:
http://natsinsider.blogspot.com/2011/01/tales-of-first-time-hall-voter.html
|
| 178 | Khahan
ID: 373143013
Wed, Jan 11, 2012, 09:06
|
Congratulatoins to Barry Larkin on a well deserved induction.
|
| Rate this thread: | If you wish, you may rate this thread on scale of 1-5. Ratings should indicate how valuable or interesting you believe this thread would be to other users of this forum. A '5' means that this thread is a 'must read'. A '1' means that this is a complete waste of time. If you have previously rated this thread, rating it again will delete your previous rating. If you do not want to rate this thread, but want to see how others have rated it, then click the button without entering a rating, or else click here. |
|
|
|
Post a reply to this message: Hall of Fame Class of 2011
|
|