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0 Subject: Lee to Philly

Posted by: GoatLocker
- Leader [060151121] Tue, Dec 14, 2010, 00:32

Breaking news on ESPN.
Talk about a swerve.
Lee is on his way back to Philly.
Talk about a scary rotation.
Only the 50 most recent replies are currently shown. Click on this text to display hidden posts as well.
30Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 13:23
I forgot to add, if the Yankees were clearly so desperate to sign Lee at any cost that failure to sign him will surely prompt them to go out and blast the market away with their next offer to a big FA pitcher, why didn't they try to blast the market away with their offer to Lee? He wasn't even offered as much total money as Sabathia got. They let it hang for days, despite no movement from Lee.

This is all very amusing, but quite distinct from reality. Just like your hit TV show.
31Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 14:18
R9

We'll see, but Lee did go 6-8, 3.98 in the ssecond half last year and then go on to mess the bed in the World Series (albeit after a terrific showing in 3 earlier-round playoff starts).

Imagine if Cashman had handed over the farm for Lee in July, only to see him bolt after half a season.
32wiggs
      ID: 356532011
      Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 14:57
25- Astade I agree with you about Lee- but if I remember right 2 years ago he was like 14-13 or something like that and 4 years ago he was sent back to the minors. He is definitely not the model of consistency.
33Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 15:27
Despite his losses (often because he was on so-so teams), he's got amazing control. He doesn't give up many home runs, and a very good WHIP.

The question is whether, at age 31, he should be locked into a long term contract. IMO a team has to make the effort to land a guy like Lee--you just can't bet against him.
34Great One
      ID: 01122913
      Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 15:28
Cano, Hughes... Gardner I guess is pretty good but not a star.. Joba sucks... Austin Jackson helped land Granderson so he did his job.

How many other impact players have they actually generated the last 5-8 years? are you seriously still counting Jeter/Posada/Rivera when illustrating the exploits of the recent homegrown talent?
35Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 15:38
GO, not being one to normally extol the virtues of the Yankees, I think its a valid point for MITH to bring them up in this debate. The current roster of the Yankees includes jeter, posada and Rivera and they are homegrown talent. Maybe they kept them via over agressive spending in FA. But the point still stands.

The idea that the Yankees just buy FA without developing talent of their own is flawed. They spend big during the FA period on talent they developed. But they still have shown a capacity to develop big league talent. Then spend insanely to keep that talent.
36blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 15:40
Jeter signed two monster extensions with the Yankees. They bought his talent. Hell, they wouldn't have even had him in the first place if they hadn't outspent everyone else in the draft.
37Great One
      ID: 01122913
      Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 15:54
Ok. What all star caliber players have they developed in the last 12-15 years? Cano, Hughes. I'm not giving you Joba, he was a flash in the pan. Gardner looks like a legit major leaguer but not an all star. Thats not especially impressive.
38blue hen
      Dude
      ID: 710321114
      Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 16:45
Soriano? Wang? Matsui? If you're listing Hughes, those three have to count.
39wiggs
      ID: 2679223
      Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 17:52
The same can be said about Boston-

They have an old Varitek
Pedroia
Ellsbury
Youkalis
Lester
Papelbon
Buchholz

Am I missing anyone?
40R9
      ID: 2854239
      Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 17:57
#32, Lee is clearly not the same pitcher who got demoted 4 years ago. I'd even go so far as to say he's been one of the 5 most reliable SP's in baseball since the start of 2008.
Win-Loss record really means very little as well, in terms of consistency.


#31, His overall playoff stats were quite impressive. Only 2 BB, 47 K's in 35 IP, 2.75 ERA. In fact, his career playoff numbers over 10 starts: 7-2, 2.13 ERA, 8 BB, 80 K's in 76 IP with 3 CG.
So yes, I guess we'll have to wait and see... but I'll go on record as saying I expect him to be a better value then alot of big-contract SP's, including guys like Sabathia.
41Electroman
      Donor
      ID: 010833614
      Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 18:33
RE 38-Matsui was brought over from Japan, not groomed by the Yankees. And Wang and Soriano have not faired so well lately.

42Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Wed, Dec 15, 2010, 23:14
Alfonso Soriano hit 300 hr and stole 380 bases over the last 10 years and is a 7 time all star. If that fails the stated standard of an all-star caliber player you're out of your mind. Wang, while never an all star, was a two time 19 game winner (both seasons well under 4 era) and the Yankees ace for those 2 seasons; 07 and 08. Before getting hurt in June of 09, he was 8 - 2, 4.07 in 15 starts with a k rate continuing it's upward trend for a 3rd straight year. Gardner's best years should probably still be ahead of him and if that means he improves just a little on his 2010 numbers of .383 OBP, 97 R and 47 steals and keeps it up for a few years, I have to believe he'll find his way into an ASG or two. Hughes is all ready an all star. Joba might be busted but probably not. I haven't liked him much in a couple of years now. Still has terrific stuff, the menal makeup is a mess IMO. I suspect that if he can stay healthy he'll have a rebirth as a dominant closer somewhere down the road. Maybe you meant a higher standard than all-star caliber? Since all of those players seem to fit a term that I take to mean that a player looks like he's got a pretty decent chance to be an all star.
43Mith
      ID: 441141523
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 00:04
Sorry, Soriano stole 260 bases in that time, not 380. I was looking at his BB total.
44Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 01:04
Matsui was brought over from Japan

And so was Soriano. Why is anyone calling him a Yankee prospect, he was bought from the Carp?
45Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 01:32
I have no idea what Soriano did in Japan but he played two full years in the Yankees minor league system before graduating to the majors.
46Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 01:42
Baseball Digest Oct 2002
Following almost two seasons in Japan's minors, he made his Japanese major league debut with the Hiroshima Tokyo Carp for whom he played nine games in 1997.

The next year he signed with the Yankees, and in 1999, made it all the way to New York after starting the season playing Rookie League ball in Tampa.
Anyone who remembers his Yankee days surely recalls how utterly raw a talent he was, even for a rookie. I'd say the Yankees deserve more than half-credit for developing Soriano into a major-leaguer. Matsui of course came to the US very much an MLB-ready player.
47KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 12353217
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 07:13
Matsui was brought over from Japan

And so was Soriano. Why is anyone calling him a Yankee prospect, he was bought from the Carp?


Because 390 AB at the age of 20/21 isn't even a full season of development and that's all he had in two years in Japan.

If, based on that, you're not going to call Soriano a Yankee prospect, then no player who has played in college should be labeled a MLB team's prospect because they'll have had more AB at a similar age than Soriano.

Soriano's 926 AB in MLB's minor leagues show exactly how much his 390 AB in Japan were worth.
48Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 07:45
Not sure where you got the 390ab number but I assume all or most of those are minor league at bats in Japan. As far as I can tell, based on the link above and his Wiki page, he played in all of 9 games at the major league level in Japan.
49Great One
      ID: 01122913
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 09:18
Yes I agree on Soriano, he should count. No way Hideki Matsui should. Would we count Dice-K and Okajima then? doesn't make sense to this discussion of players developed in the minor league system.

Not to many teams have been this successful the last few years Wiggs... Pedroia, Ellsbury, Youkilis, Lester, Papelbon, Buchholz is pretty impressive. Thats 6 high level core players developed. If we are going back to add Jeter/Mo/Posada to their "recent development" then yes you forgot that Nomar guy, Trot Nixon, Mo Vaughn as they came from same era. Varitek is kind of a grey area cause he was originally a Mariner.
50wiggs
      ID: 356532011
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 09:30
I was talking current Red Sox- Thats why I didnt include guys like Vaughn, Nixon or nomar.


I didnt realize Varitek was a Mariner.

51Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 09:55
Great One

You're the only one talking about "recent development"

In post 27, Glenn Beck offered the nonsensical statement, "Because if there is something we all can agree upon, it's that the Yankees are not going to suddenly become a team that builds its roster from it farm system."

I responded by listing the players on last year's roster who were in fact home grown. For some unknown reason, you then offered in post 34 that only players developed in the last 5 - 8 years are valid and inexplicably asked, "are you seriously still counting Jeter/Posada/Rivera when illustrating the exploits of the recent homegrown talent?"

I didn't bother to answer but since you insist... no, no one has said that. Who are you talking to?

Let's please not abruptly change the subject and then pretend that it's what we were talking about all along, ok?
52Great One
      ID: 01122913
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 10:01
Those players came through the system during a different era. I am saying they haven't recently produced very many good to great players outside of Cano/Hughes.
53Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 10:28
Wow, am I really agreeing with MITH and supporting the Yankees?

Back to the original comment that spawned this whole discussion - Because if there is something we all can agree upon, it's that the Yankees are not going to suddenly become a team that builds its roster from it farm system."

I don't believe that. I think the Yankees are a team that over the past decade (or slightly longer) have developed some major league talent and field a team that uses its own developed major league talent. Sorry guys but denying that is simply turning a blind eye to the truth.
54Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 10:42
Khahan

You're just siding with facts. Rather simple and obvious ones, really. YDS really does distort perspective. You must have been vaccinated.


Great One

In his first full season, Gardner finished in the top 5 in steals, triples and several defensive categories, and in the top 10 in Defensive WAR, OBP, R and BB. Now, I don't know what your standard is for "good to great" (yesterday it was "all star caliber") but for a top of the order hitter, that Gardner sure looks like he's somewhere between good and great to me. Wang was also someplace between good and great before he got hurt. So I'd say that makes 4, with the jury still out on Joba.

Now, if you're going to again change your parameters to disqualify players who were good to great but are no longer so due to injury so that we disqualify Wang, then I would suggest that we don't quite know how well Pedroia and Ellsbury will bounce back from their injuries. Ellsbury certainly wasn't "good to great" (whatever that means) in 2010.

But since we're taking such liberties with discussion topics, lets move foward to the horizon (and I'll even provide the benefit of acknowledging the change, rather than use it to discredit your previous posts). The Yankees have 4 legitimate to high level pitching prospects, two high level catching prospects and 1 high level shortstop prospect, all projected to be in the majors by 2012 and sooner. Who do the Sox have coming down the pike besides Lars Anderson, who was a disapointment in AAA last year? He was the #4 prospect in the system before they traded their #1 and #3 for Gonzo. So there should be 1 player who is more highly regarded than Anderson, who's that?

It seems likely that if a good opportunity presents itself (or if you believe Glenn, any chance to ravage the farm for a warm body - the more futile, the more likely) some of those Yankee prospects will be departing. But (going back to the original and some subsequent topics) it seems clear enough that there has been a steady stream of good talent coming out of the Yankee farm system for the past decade, most of which they have held on to so far.
55Seattle Zen
      Leader
      ID: 055343019
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 10:58
But (going back to the original and some subsequent topics) it seems clear enough that there has been a steady stream of good talent coming out of the Yankee farm system for the past decade, most of which they have held on to so far.

Jesus H. Christ, O'Reilly, this is just preposterous. Cano, Hughes, Gardner, and maybe Wang is simply not a "stream", certainly is the very opposite of "steady". Four guys, four. I don't care how much you scream "the sky is red", no matter how many examples you use "proving" this preposterous notion, you are simply showing that it is you, Bill, who suffers from Yankee Derangement Syndrome.

Three, four years ago it was Melky Cabrerra, now it's Brett Gardner, the latest of a "steady stream". Are you trying to make us spit coffee on our monitors?
56judy
      Leader
      ID: 7771722
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 11:17
You guys are funny with your debate!

As a Phillie Phan, I am thrilled for Lee coming back. I do, however, feel sorry for Werth who took Boras advice and all that money to play for a loser. Here is one statement from Werth's press conference introduction on Weds (same day as Lee's in Philly): "I've been to the postseason a lot the past few years, and that's what it's all about."

Well, son, if "that's what it's all about", then you made a big time blunder signing with the Nats for what will probably be 7 very long years....

57Great One
      ID: 1711331610
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 11:46
I don't know, Ellsbury was drafted in the second round of fantasy drafts last year, seems like he is thought of slightly higher than Melky and Gardner... is Gardner even a full time player? and believe me, I know full well who solid a player Gardner is, I went to college with the guy.

And we are seriously debating if Pedroia is for real? Does he need to win multiple MVPs?! This was his first injury since his debut.

How about we defer to the experts. Where has Baseball America ranked these two farm systems the last 10 years?
58dpr
      ID: 1990714
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 12:58
I thought common opinion with regard to the Yankees was that there success in the 90s was due the great crop of home grown players that they brought up, a few of whom are still around. But then there "struggles" in the past decade were due to a lack of result in this direction since then. Given that a comment on the yankees farm system would be about the last 15 years.

In that period they have Cano who is a major difference maker (and soriano who was traded away) and then Hughes and Gardner who are coming off real good years but likely need more data to see the quality of player they end up as (gardner is limited by his lack of pop and Hughes end of season stats weren't that impressive). Wang as far as i could tell was the same as Dice-K? Also should be noted other prior to last year this list from late 90s to 2009 was just cano. So maybe they are improving, and MITH claims an impressive list of minor leaguers (although outside of the catchers I don't know much about them).
59Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 13:12
Glenn

simply not a "stream"

OK, this is true. See even Glenn Beck finds a nut once in a while. There was actually a severe dearth of Yankee farm products from about 2001, when Nick Johnson and Soriano arrived, until 2005, when Melky, Cano and Wang came up, and then another for a couple of years after that. Those players were promoted in 2005 out of necessity that year and provided Cashman with a case that the farm system can be used as a source of talent, rather than just tradeable commodities. And it would be another few years before Hughes and Joba would come up. But considering that the seeding really only began in 2006, the yield since them has been pretty good. One problem the Yankees do have is that always being in win-now mode and playing in the AL East means that they cannot afford their raw talent much of a fair chance to develop at the major league level. They brought up a lot of pitching in the past few years and by necessity have had to let go or move guys who would get more of a chance to fail on other teams. Take a look at what Tyler Clippard did in 18 starts for Washington last year. Ian Kennedy was the defacto ace of the last-place DBacks in 2010. Russ Ohlendorf and Jeff Karstens didn't make the most of their opportunites to start but are with teams that could give them another crack at it. Keep an eye on Mark Melancon, now in Houston. There is another wave of 4 more good-looking starting pitching prospects ready or almost ready now. Eduardo Nunez turned a lot of heads at AAA and in the majors last year at SS. The two catching prospects are well documented (actually I think there is a 3rd).

Aside from my 'stream' comment, everything I've written about Yankee talent development is true. They have in fact shown themselves a team that builds a significant portion of it's roster from within the organization. This is more true than it would be if the core four had less longevity, but they've all proven pretty durable and the yankees have shown a determination to hold on to those players so it is what it is, contrary to Glenn's demands otherwise. And the renewed player development effort has clearly yielded early fruit in pretty short order and appears to remain well-stocked. How many of these new players come up and stay with the team for any period of time depends on what trade opportunities present themselves. It would be worth it to hand over a king's ransom in prospects for Felix Hernandez or some other young and exceptionally high value talent became available. And in that case, I'd gladly live with a gap in the current flow of new talent. More likely some will be parted with for the best deal that presents itself in the next two months. But I also think that if Pettitte comes back, Cashman is willing to go into the season without acquiring another SP, giving the young talent a chance with an eye on how the market develops.


Great One

seems like [[Ellsbury] is thought of slightly higher than Melky and Gardner

Who is comparing Melky Cabrera to Ellsbury? Who are you talking to? And who cares who got drafted higher before Gardner had ever played a full season? Who do you think gets drafted higher in 2011?

And we are seriously debating if Pedroia is for real?

No. No one has made that case, either. I referred to Ellsbury and Pedroia in response to your omission of Wang, a two-time 19 game winner in his first two full seasons, as a "good to great" player.
60Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 13:16
dpr

MITH claims an impressive list of minor leaguers

See post 61 in the Yankees offseason thread.
61dpr
      ID: 1990714
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 13:35
MITH,

You pretty much doubted the validity of Ellsbury and Pedroia as valid points for the Red Sox were this about them, but then mention Ian Kennedy and Tyler Clippard? What contending team would want those guys in there rotation? I do realize they you discredit the Red Sox as a a response to Wang. The difference is Wang had two good years (and if you look past wins, which I assume we know isn't the best measure of a pitchers ability, then he was merely average) and nothing else. Pedroia and ellsbury have had as many good years (or better) and likely have more in front of them, although ellsbury does seem to be a bit of injury risk.
62Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 13:51
You pretty much doubted the validity of Ellsbury and Pedroia as valid points for the Red Sox were this about them

You're mitaken on this too. I was applying the logic used to omit Wang to Pedroia and Ellsbury - to show that the logic is flawed. Jacoby has about the same amount of time on an MLB roster as Wang, and a comparable amout of service (for a SP/position player comparison). Both have two full seasons under their belts. Wang was certainly more than a high win total pitcher. His ERAs in those two years were very good and he was the Cy Young runner up in 2006.

But it doesn't matter. Of course Pedroia and Ellsbury count as good-to-great players developed by the Sox. The point is that so does Wang (for the Yankees) even if he happens to be busted now, just as Pedroia and Ellsbury would still count if they were done in by their injuries. A freak player injury that shortens a career doesn't erase the fact that a very good major-leaguer was developed before it happened.
63dpr
      ID: 1990714
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 14:26
I stated that ellsbury and and pedroia were a response to Wang. I am not sure what you meant by "too" also.

I did mince two arguments.The first being mentioning players like kennedy and clippard is silly. Of course they developed some players who are little more than below average Major leaguers and not a player of the quality who could help the yankees(I recognize this fact makes it harder for the yankees to have homegrown players. It is much easier to develop a player who could play for the pirates).

The second was on Wang. I just dont think he was all that good. I don't really care about wins when evaluating a pitchers skill so that takes away his best stat. His ERA in the high 3s was good but not much more than a solid 2 or 3. A player who definitely helps your team but not a huge difference maker. His K-rate was terrible although he did have a great ability to keep the ball in the park (lead the league). Actually I just looked up his ERA rank for those years. So without deleting what I had written he was better than I realized for those years 8th and 14 (a low end 1 but for the yankees a 2). I still wouldnt put him on the level of pedroia but maybe he could be comparable to ellsbury where I was previously thinking Nick Johnson.
64Mith
      ID: 28646259
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 19:16
You're mincing two seperate points I made with some comparison you insist on that I didn't make and slopping it all together in some big nasty slurrey that doesn't resemble anything I intended.
65Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 19:18
Serve it with a big side helping of bighead fries and he'll be a Yankees fan too, then.

:)
66Great One
      ID: 53105119
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 20:24
"Cliff Lee took less money to sign with the Phillies. That left the Yankees no choice.... but to buy the Phillies!" - Conan
67slizz
      ID: 1710161519
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 22:55
judy...stop hatin' on Werth. He signs in Philly. you don't get Lee. Besides, if I am Werth...I take the $$$ too. Plus DC is an awesome place to live in. Outside of Rittenhouse Square, what does Philly offer that can really compete with DC?
68Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Thu, Dec 16, 2010, 23:23
FTR, I really think Wang hadn't reached his peak at all. A few years back, much was beng made of the idea that k-rate trends might be the best indicator of the direction a pitcher is headed. I don't know if that idea has held up but for whatever it's worth, for Wang that number trended from 3.1 in 2006 to 4.7 to 5.1 in 2008. Because he was such an effective groundball pitcher (he didn't give up many xbh of any kind, putting up SLG allowed of .320 and .324 those two years, compared with league averages of .437 and .423, respectively) most people have no idea that his fastball averaged 94 mph.

Whether the k-rate trend thing is any kind of accurate indicator or not, he was clearly beginning to learn how to use his velocity to induce strikeouts and was developing a very impressive repertoire for himself.

We can't know that he would ever become a year-in year-out protypical ace but he sure seemed destined to advance beyond the solid #2 pitcher status he had well-established for himself by age 27. It's a real shame he got hurt. I really liked rooting for the guy. He seems to have fallen into that cycle where injuries lead to screwed-up mechanics which may have led to other injuries. Hopefully he gets a good shot at a comeback someplace. I sure would love to see him get a minor league deal with the Yankees if he's healthy.
69Mith
      ID: 371138719
      Fri, Dec 17, 2010, 00:35
Just saw that Wang has signed a 1-year deal with the Nats.
70Great One
      ID: 1711331610
      Fri, Dec 17, 2010, 09:08
I loved how every year I would say Wang wasn't an ace and couldn't get it done in the playoffs... and then would get lit up come October! That was my favorite part of Wang.

Hopefully he can resurrect his career though, he seems like a nice enough kid. Lets see how many games he wins he can get on a bad team.
71Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Fri, Dec 17, 2010, 12:03
every year I would say Wang wasn't an ace and couldn't get it done in the playoffs... and then would get lit up come October!

He's pitched in all of 3 playoff series. 1 start in the 2005 ALDS. 6 hits, no walks and 1 ER over 6.2 innings in a loss. 1 start in the 2006 ALDS. Not as impressive as his 05 game but a quality start and a win. In 2007 he got lit up in 2 starts.

The FOX News Channel definition of "every year": one out of three years. Welcome to the discussion, Sean Hannity.
72Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Fri, Dec 17, 2010, 12:16
That was my favorite part of Wang.

Trying so hard to bite back politically incorrect statement about this, GO.

73Great One
      ID: 1711331610
      Fri, Dec 17, 2010, 12:50
Ok, so he was okay in 2 starts, and horrible in 2 starts. If we are counting 3 runs in 6 IP and a W as an great pitching performance cause thats what he did in the first 2 "okay" games. You conveniently put 1 EARNED run in there for his first one... do you remember the other runs allowed? They were of an throwing error on WANG who came up small once again.

Playoff career stats even without even counting those 2 runs that should be his?
He averaged less than 5 IP per start, 1-3 W-L, 7.58 ERA

His regular season road ERA during his 3 best years?
a simply dominating 4.62 across 237 IP.

15 starts in big games vs. BOS those 3 years?
equally studly 6-6, 86 IP and 4.98 ERA.

He was an okay regular season pitcher, who pitched well at home and racked up wins because he played on the machine that is the Yankees.
And he never came up big in a big spot.
74Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Dec 17, 2010, 12:57
Wang was an ace by default. Seriously--why would we even be talking about Wang in a thread about Cliff Lee? If Yankees fans want to take some comfort in the fact that they didn't get Lee but that's OK because they have Wang, I'm happy for their delusion.
75Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Fri, Dec 17, 2010, 20:37
Hannity: every year [Wang] would get lit up come October!

Mith: Actually one year gave up 1 ER in his only start, the next year he notched a quality start and a win with 3ER in 6 ip.

Hannity: If we are counting 3 runs in 6 IP and a W as an great pitching performance...

? Is English not your first language? When I say quality start, I mean quality start. Do you know what a quality start is? Do you at least know that a quality start is something that is distinct from getting "lit up"?

You said he got shelled every year. He didn't. You were wrong. Get over it. I don't know why you take a tangent about Chien-Ming Wang so personally that you have to dishonestly put words in my mouth to make your point, but you've done it a couple of times now. I don't appreciate it and it does nothing to advance the discussion. Please stop that. OK?

You conveniently put 1 EARNED run in there for his first one... do you remember the other runs allowed?

When you say conveniently, that suggests that I deliberately selected a stat to dishonestly portray the event differently from what actually happened. I provided result, IP and ERA because that's the line that I glanced at, what everyone always glances at when they make a quick check to see how a pitcher performed in a game. Fair point that the other runs were unearned ones charged to him, though only one of them was a result of his throwing error. ARod and Cano each also made errors that led to the Angles manufacturing runs. Still, 1 ER and 3 unearned runs in 6.2 innings isn't quite getting "lit up".

His regular season road ERA during his 3 best years? A simply dominating 4.62 across 237 IP.

Again, no one used anything like the word dominating in reference to Wang. If you can't resist sarcasm can't you at least get a little creative with it? Repeatedly exaggerating my points is juvenile and annoying.

Anyway, I do recall that he was a much better pitcher in Yankee Stadium. I'd imagine 4.62 is likely a touch lower than the road ERA for the AL over those years. No idea where to find H/A league splits, but the total league ERAs for those years was between 4.31 and 4.50. Plenty of pitchers more highly regarded than Wang were also average or worse on the road. The main reason for this I believe was that a ground ball pitcher just isn't nearly as effective on artificial turf, especially with an up the middle defense that included a SS of decreasing range, a weak 2B in Cano at the time and one of the worst CF in the league in Johnny Damon. His Era on turf is 5.60.


15 starts in big games vs. BOS those 3 years?
equally studly 6-6, 86 IP and 4.98 ERA.


Again, you make it seem like I said the guy was Greg Maddux. That's just not necessary. Familiarity works in the offense's favor. It's a product of the unbalanced schedule and part of the reason offensive numbers are up from previous eras. For example Clay Buchholz' ERA against the Yankees is 5.79. Josh Beckett's is 6.26.

Sean, I will say that you've made a compelling case to reject the notion that Chien-Ming Wang is a dominant type of #1 MLB starter. Why you felt this was necessary is beyond me, since no one has made this case.


Gretchen

The discussion shifted to Wang when his name was brought up (by someone other than me, for the record) after Glenn Beck offered a rather blatant untruth to support his fantasy that the failure to sign Lee can only result in the demise of the franchise.

And I agree, he was the defacto ace of the Yankees.
76Great One
      ID: 1711331610
      Mon, Dec 20, 2010, 09:03
But in post 71 you said his 2005 start was "impressive".... so you give anyone reading it the impression he went 6 strong innings with one run - but in reality there were other "unearned" runs there which a direct result of his own throwing error and is why he lost the game. They were his fault. There is nothing "impressive" about 3 runs in 6 IP. While it is technically a quality start it is also a 4.50 ERA and there is nothing impressive about that.
77Mith
      ID: 4010542612
      Mon, Dec 20, 2010, 11:57
Actually only 1 of the unearned runs was the result of his throwing error. But regardless, you're really parsing. If you insist on nitpicking, I said the 06 start was "less impressive" than the 05 start. Whatever. I'm not interested in a subjective debate on which adjectives apply, as if a measure of the guy's career hangs on that single start.

The topic came up because you said he got lit up every year in the playoffs. I maintain that he didn't and as far as I'm conceerned the record shows that quite plainly. The greater point was that he was a good to very good player who was still improving and was developed by the Yankee farm system. If you still disagree so be it.
78Great One
      ID: 1711331610
      Mon, Dec 20, 2010, 13:14
Wang's throwing error would allow Jeff DaVanon and Steve Finley to score on Cabrera's single, giving the Angels a 4–2 lead.
79Khahan
      ID: 373143013
      Tue, Dec 21, 2010, 14:27
Cliff Lee and Jason Werth

A quick meeting between Lee & Werth after their signings. At first I was thinking was kind of lame. But after about 35 seconds or so.

Visually its ok to watch at work, but keep the volume down (and keep out of the ears of children). I have to imagine this would be pretty close to reality.
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