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0 Subject: Weird baserunning play

Posted by: Perm Dude
- [201027169] Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 21:16

I'm sure I'm not the only one who saw this play and came to a completely different conclusion that the article and video linked. Watch it--my thoughts below.
1Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 21:22
First of all, toward the end of the article:

"Ryan was the only one that did the right thing"

NO: Braun may have been the one who did the wrong thing. If he didn't continue running to second when he saw the baserunner get caught in a rundown between second and third none of this happens. In fact, Segura would have likely been safe at second getting back.

Second: They seem to be taking Segura to task for assuming he was out and trotting back to first. But he was out. He was tagged out when he went off the bag.

Finally, what if Segura's bench was on the third base side? If he'd trotted toward his bench thinking it was an out for him, and ended up on third, would it have been an inadvertent stolen base? Defensive indifference?
2DWetzel
      ID: 59149910
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 21:48
Baserunners are taught, in these situations where someone's getting out, for the back runner to advance as far as possible (second base here), so Braun did the right thing.

Obviously, Segura didn't, for two reasons:

1. Not knowing who has to give up the base in these situations (this is surprisingly common among major league baseball players though).

2. While he "should" have been out, you're never out until the ump calls you out.
3Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 21:57
My point on the out call was not only was he actually out, he no doubt heard the out call (remember, he was tagged with his back to the ump). He just didn't know it wasn't directed at him (even though it should have been).
4Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Sun, Apr 21, 2013, 22:05
It has been a long time since I played organized baseball. My memory is probably hazy (and I'm not being snarky here) but I believe I was taught not to advance into the rundown (i.e., if possible go from first to second on a rundown between third and home, or go from third to home on a rundown between first and second). I could very well be wrong here.
5KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 27731299
      Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 08:16
The problem with the whole situation is the end result. If Braun had retreated to 1st, you have one of three situations...

1. Segura makes it back to 2nd with Braun having retreated to 1st. Runners at 1st and 2nd, no outs.

2. Segura makes it to 3rd (somehow) with Braun at 1st. Runners at 1st and 3rd, no outs.

3. Segura gets tagged out wtih Braun at 1st. Runner at 1st, 1 out.

All of those are better than the result given that Segura was later tagged out trying to (again) steal 2nd, which resulted in no runners, 2 outs. So, that makes it seem like it was Braun's fault.

BUT, if Segura had not tried to go back to 2nd and allowed Braun to stay, you would have a runner at 2nd with 1 out, which is also better than the end result and is also better than Segura at 1st with 1 out (later trying to steal 2nd for the 2nd time).

Once Braun was at 2nd, Segura should have headed toward 3rd, which would have resulted in his out. I have to blame Segura for the end result.
6Tree
      ID: 38322228
      Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 09:22
you forgot the 4th result, which is also something we've seen.

4. Both runners get caught in a run down and called out.

i'm not sure, at what point Segura would actually have been out, per PD's 1. he wasn't tagged when off the bag i don't believe.
7Frick
      ID: 432501512
      Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 09:30
I can't blame Braun for advancing when he sees the pitcher go to 3rd, he leaves before he sees Segura double back. He has to assume that Segura isn't going to come back. But, he could have stepped off of 2nd as Segura came back to send and was going to be safe. But, I agree that most MLB players don't know the rules for those situations, I'm reading the Little League rule book at the moment since I'm going to be umpiring games for the first time in a long while now that my son is at the level where they need a "real" umpire.

That being said, it is a joke that the guys who get paid millions, can't take the hour or two a year to reread the rule book. But it isn't limited to just baseball players, e.g. Donovan McNabb
8Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 21:03
#6: You can see the fielder took two swipes at Segura. One when he was clearly on the bag, and the second a moment later when he was off.
9dpr
      ID: 9513258
      Mon, Apr 22, 2013, 21:37
5
The problem with those outcomes is that they don't all carry equal weight. I would imagine that in a very high percentage of rundowns the their is an out as a result (especially when there is just one runner to focus on as opposed to between 1st and 2nd with a runner on third). This means that by far the most likely outcome is runner on first one out with the small possibility the trapped runner ends up safe.

Conversely, if Braun goes to 2nd then they pretty much guarantee that there will be 1out with a runner on 2nd. As long as Segura does not leave the leave the base after he went back to second this would be the outcome (except it would have been Segura remaining instead of Braun).

Since the 2nd scenario(assuming the other runner does not make a mistake) is better than the first except in the rare situations the runner escapes the rundown, it makes more sense to pursue this path.
10C1-NRB
      ID: 202101423
      Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 01:14
Both were clearly out, Braun for advancing to an occpuied base and Segura because, a Stark put it, he was tagged a second time when he was off second base (did the 3B umpire not see it? was there no conference?) and then because he was "assisted" by the first base coach as forbidden in 7.09(i)

Assuming he wasn't tagged leaving second, he would have been safe at first by the wording in clarification to rule 7.08(i) through no malfeasance on his part.

You always see the fielder tag both players on a double-occupied base so the umpire will make the decision about who is "out." In this case, the second base umpire called Braun out (correctly). But he missed the call on the second tag of Segura when he (Segura) ceased contacting second base because he (the umpire) took his eye off the ball.

The first base umpire was looking at second when the rule 7.09(i) was violated.

Therefore Segura was allowed to occupy first base due to umpire error, but not an error of rule interpretation.

I love this game!
11Ref
      ID: 34731299
      Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 09:03
The umpires got it right. There was a big article on this on ESPN. It was quite funny. But the oddest part was this was the first time in history a player stole 2nd and was thrown out at 2nd in the same inning, without batting around, in history.
12weykool
      ID: 474402717
      Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 10:00
The umps did not get it right...they blew it not once but twice.
Missing the tag when he was off the base and the interference call.
13Perm Dude
      ID: 201027169
      Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 12:06
On the other hand, wk, they did get right what they saw.

:)
14DWetzel
      ID: 59149910
      Tue, Apr 23, 2013, 12:43
"It has been a long time since I played organized baseball. My memory is probably hazy (and I'm not being snarky here) but I believe I was taught not to advance into the rundown (i.e., if possible go from first to second on a rundown between third and home, or go from third to home on a rundown between first and second). I could very well be wrong here. "

The theory is you basically assume the runner in the rundown's going to be out, so you take the bases you can take while that's going on. In the ideal case, if the back baserunner is faster, the front one gets himself tagged out instead, but obviously that doesn't apply here.

Given that you assume they're not going to mess up the rundown, the ideal case is Segura on second (which is what should have happened absent brain fart); second most ideal is Braun on second.
15Skidazl
      ID: 19219420
      Sun, Apr 28, 2013, 10:14
Agreed, Segura was out on the second tag at second base and Braun was out by rule 7.08...

Disagreed, Segura was not out due to interference by the 1B coach. The first base ump had clearly called time out by that point, rewatch, you'll see...
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