Posted by: Khahan
- [521035218] Mon, Nov 24, 2014, 16:17
new ballot released - the steroid era continues
This article breaks down newcomers and returning with a brief bio.
If I could fill in anywhere from 0-10 names on a ballot I would fill in these: Randy Johnson Pedro Martinez Craig Biggio Mike Piazza Roger Clemens Barry Bonds Sammy Sosa Jeff Kent
Bonds Clemens Randy Pedro Biggio Piazza Raines Schilling Sheffield McGwire --------- Bagwell Smoltz Trammell Walker Edgar Sosa
I've always been a Small Hall guy, but it's hard to support an institution without any of the first four. In a vacuum, I'd vote for each of these guys, but had to limit to 10.
2
Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Mon, Nov 24, 2014, 17:17
"Since then, the BBWAA has elected four candidates in one year only twice: 1947, when Mickey Cochrane, Frankie Frisch, Lefty Grove and Carl Hubbell were elected; and 1955, when Joe DiMaggio, Gabby Hartnett, Ted Lyons and Dazzy Vance earned election."
That certainly lends an interesting historical perspective. I have to say, for half those guys, I was going "Who?"
3
weykool
ID: 21012423 Tue, Nov 25, 2014, 00:01
I would never vote for any of those cheaters on the list. The damage they did to the game was far worse than anything Rose did. If Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, or Sosa gets in they should just change it to the Hall of Shame.
4
JeffG
ID: 2654157 Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 10:05
My votes would be (in order of my rankings for deservedness)
Piazza - Best C in his era, 9 time .300 hitter, 400+ HR, career slash .308/.377/.545
Clemens - Stud pitcher, 5 20-game win seasons, 7 Cy Youngs, 4600+ Ks w/8.6 career K9, ignoring steriods
Bonds - HR leader, outrageous resume, also ignoring steroids
Unit - dominant pitcher, dominant post season numbers, 10.6 career K9, 5 Cy Youngs,
Smoltz - great starting pitcher who was also a stud closer so does not have the W total, also was lights out post season pitcher
Biggio - Face of the Astros, top 20 in most counting stats (longevity)
Edgar - career .312/.418/.515. All time DH. All time Mariner.
Pedro - 3 CY Youngs, career 10 K/9 2.9ERA, 1.05 WHIP. Two 300+ K seasons.
Boone - Not a HOFer but deservers my fake token vote for the 11th inning of 2003 ALCS game 7
Jeter and Mariano - Because I am a Yankee fanatic and do not think we should wait 3-4 more years :)
5
Khahan
ID: 51047269 Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 10:47
JeffG - give me more on smoltz. I didn't include him because of his overall counting stats but you make a valid point about his seasons as a closer. Just a fun mental exercise - convince me that Smoltz belongs. I may be able to e swayed.
6
Toral Leader
ID: 2111201313 Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 11:06
Not in any order:
Bonds Clemens (would have made it without PEDs) Piazza RJohnson Biggio PMartinez Smoltz Raines Schilling Trammell
7
Khahan
ID: 51047269 Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 11:59
I forgot to add Raines back to my list. Wasn't room on last years list.
8
JeffG
ID: 15859720 Wed, Nov 26, 2014, 15:36
Re: Smoltz. Intangible points for being a key core player on teams making the post season 15 years. His 3 1/2 years in the pen probably only kept him from having around 250 wins, but then add in his 15 post season wins. Regularly threw 200 innings a season, 53 CG.
9
blue hen
ID: 01052416 Tue, Dec 02, 2014, 09:22
Smoltz was certainly better than Glavine, who is in. And I give him credit for a couple Kimbrel-type seasons in between being a starter.
10
Ref
ID: 55156513 Wed, Dec 03, 2014, 14:52
RJ Pedro Smoltz Biggio
11
JeffG
ID: 15859720 Sat, Dec 06, 2014, 09:29
The 10-person ballot for consideration by this year’s Golden Era (1947-1972) Committee consists of Dick Allen, Ken Boyer, Gil Hodges, Bob Howsam, Jim Kaat, Minnie Minoso, Tony Oliva, Billy Pierce, Luis Tiant and Maury Wills. Results of the Golden Era Committee vote will be announced Dec. 8.
Hodges
13
Toral Leader
ID: 2111201313 Sat, Dec 06, 2014, 12:04
Minoso
14
loki
ID: 351120210 Sat, Dec 06, 2014, 13:56
Hodges with Wills a close 2nd.
15
Bean
ID: 121011511 Sat, Dec 06, 2014, 23:25
Pete Rose
16
JeffG
ID: 2654157 Tue, Dec 09, 2014, 09:22
No one in from 'Golden Era'. Oliva and Allen fell 1 vote short with 11 of 16 votes.
I was way off on a lot last year but it's always fun to laugh at later....
Now that I think I know how a deep incoming class can effect things, here's some predictions, based a little on trends and a little on personal bias:
95%- Randy Johnson 92%- Pedro Martinez 87%- John Smoltz 78%- Craig Biggio (74.8%) 63%- Mike Piazza (62.2%) 53%- Jeff Bagwell (54.3%) 42%- Tim Raines (46.1%) 34%- Roger Clemens (35.4%) 33%- Barry Bonds (34.7%) 23%- Curt Schilling (29.2%) 19%- Lee Smith (29.9%) 16%- Edgar Martinez (25.2%) 14%- Mike Mussina (20.3%) 12%- Alan Trammell (20.8%) 12%- Jeff Kent (15.2%) 9%- Gary Sheffield 8%- Don Mattingly (8.2%) 8%- Nomar Garciaparra 7%- Carlos Delgado 6%- Fred McGriff (11.7%) 6%- Mark McGwire (11.0%) 5%- Larry Walker (10.2%) 4%- Sammy Sosa (7.2%)
19
filthy
ID: 4157202 Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 06:06
And factoring in my complete personal bias, my ballot this year would be:
Randy Johnson Pedro Martinez John Smoltz Craig Biggio Tim Raines Edgar Martinez Alan Trammell Carlos Delgado Fred McGriff Larry Walker
20
loki
ID: 351120210 Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 12:54
I have always felt that the HOF should be reserved for the great and dominant players. The only non-PED users I would vote for would be: Randy Johnson Pedro Martinez John Smoltz Mike Piazza Craig Biggio compiled his stats over 20 years to reach 3060 hits and automatic election. He would not have my vote.
21
Khahan
ID: 3023612 Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 13:23
Craig Biggio - 5th all time in doubles, 20th all time in hits, 14th all time in runs scored, 1100 rbi's primarily as a leadoff hitter. At the time of his retirement he was top 60 all time in walks and stolen bases. 5 time allstar. 5 time gold glove winner at 2nd/catcher. The bulk of his stats compiled as a C or 2nd baseman. Compiled over 20 years? So what. Out of the top 20 hit totals all time only Derek Jeter played less season (19) than Biggio. 3 other players played 20 seasons. That means 16 of the top 20 hit totals of all time were 'compiled over longer careers' than biggio.
Of the top 14 all time in runs scored, only 2 (Jeter and Gehrig) played fewer season than biggio. The rest compiled their stats over longer careers. Look at doubles where he's 5th time and out of the top 10 total for career doubles biggio has the fewest seasons played.
Not sure what 'compiling over 20years' has to do with not being HoF worthy. Then again some people just don't connect with some players.
There's support on these boards for Edgar Martinez and Allen Trammel - quite a few think they are HoFers, but I don't. Sometimes its just a matter of opinion.
22
JeffG
ID: 2654157 Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 14:29
Four have been voted in:
Johnson (97.3%) Pedro (91.1%) Smoltz (82.9%) Biggio (82.7%)
Falling short Piazza (69.9%) Clemens(37.5%) Bonds (36.8%)
23
Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 15:42
I don't have a problem with Biggio getting in--it isn't like he was a journeyman the last 4 years and just accumulating counting stats to get over the hump (the last 4 seasons, over which he hit 151 doubles, 81 home runs, and scored 341 runs while playing in 597 games).
I think some voters (who, as far as I can tell, are far more interested in tradition than actually voting in HOF-worthy players) held off on including Piazza (and probably others) simply because of the high quality of the slate this year.
24
Species
ID: 42011619 Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 20:11
Surprised by Smoltz.....really surprised. Not that he got in......just that he got in THIS year. Was his postseason record so impressive that he vaults over others?
25
Perm Dude
ID: 431013412 Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 21:17
Probably that, and his strikeouts.
26
loki
ID: 351120210 Tue, Jan 06, 2015, 22:18
By current standards Biggio certainly should have been elected to the HOF, and he was. However his game was not of the same order of magnitude of Johnson and Martinez. The Hall should be reserved for the all time greats of baseball such as "Randro," but it is populated with players like Biggio.
27
filthy
ID: 4157202 Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 05:34
I like to see elite players voted in too, despite what my pretend ballot would look like. To me, those guys are all elite though. That's the fun part. How to define it all. The voters have biases coming from covering these players in some cases. Then there's the slippery slope of some very borderline players always being there to compare it to. That will always allow for more borderline players to keep nudging through.
Johnson and Pedro to me, are no brainers. Two of the most dominating pitchers of my lifetime. No need to explain further.
Smoltz is quite borderline to me, but he had a career that wouldn't quit. The absolute dominance at closer puts him over. Postseason too. He was on his way to an Eckersley type resume, but went back and added 50 more wins as a starter instead. Impressive all around career.
Biggio's resiliency is the standout. Standout at catcher, moves to second and stands out even more. Just keeps going. I wouldn't even really wanna vote for him, but it's too hard to fight it considering I think he compares quite well with Ryne Sandberg.
I would also like to add that all of these guys escape suspicion of enhancement way too easy, especially considering their peer groups.
Others that I like:
Raines- I'd get Expos games on the french channel growing up and grew to love some of these guys without even knowing what the announcers were saying. Raines stat line is impressive enough that he should be in as well. Factoring in that slippery slope again. Dawson made it, why can't Raines too!
Edgar- I'd also get M's games once in a while growing up, and due to Ken Griffey Jr, I'd have to follow the M's highlights when I didn't get the games, so I grew to notice that Edgar is a hitting god. Especially their 1995 playoff run, and pretty much the whole time until he retired. Penalize him for putting up his stats as DH, I get it, but to not also factor in that he had to start his career late and still put up quite an impressive career line, that is a shame!
Trammell- One of my first baseball nemeses as a fan. Blue Jays/Tigers was a rivalry when I was learning baseball, and Trammell often would ruin things for the Jays. Even at the end of his career. Had to grow to like him eventually. Much like Jeter, who Trammell doesn't compare too poorly against. Elite shortstop talent is rare, and although he seems like a borderline hall candidate, I think Trammell stands out as an all time elite shortstop.
Delgado- Just a joy to watch. He didn't do it long enough but he gets my vote for his smile.
McGriff- One of my first heros. This is one guy that I would be very surprised to find out he was enhancing. He just seemed solid, and seemed to age regularly. I wish he hung on to the game a little bit longer to earn some bonus Hall cred. Guy might have seen some prime MVP considerations if not for the cartoon heroes of his time to compete against.
Walker- Even without Coors Field, Larry Walker was a fantastic hitter. All around baseball player for that matter. Look at his Expos days, and even his end with the Cards. Pure hitter. And for all the juice that Coors provided his stats, there's never any consideration to the drain that the altitude had on his body. Look at everyone who plays there, especially Tulo these days. Two big injuries and constant minor injuries over 10 years at Coors for Walker. A career of Gold Gloves, Allstars, an MVP, a ROY, no ring though. A 400 on base over 8000 career plate appearances??!! Mike Trout wishes! (just kidding, kinda)
28
filthy
ID: 4157202 Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 06:24
I'd get 5 new imaginary votes next year, with Delgado off the ballot already and the four voted in. Raines, Edgar, Walker, McGriff, Trammell would remain.
Griffey gets one for sure.
With the open spots, I think Piazza would definitely get one. Alltime elite offensive catcher. I never liked him. Hard to resist given room on the ballot though.
I'd have to consider Bagwell. His numbers are outstanding. I've never had a rooting interest in him mostly. Very hard to find a reason against him. He compares really favorably with Frank Thomas to me. Give him my 8th vote.
Schilling just can't happen. I don't like him for some reason. Started in 1993 playoffs and never ended. My dislike even grew while he was in Boston. Clemens also can't happen. I could have Dumbledore walk me through his thoughts and memories to clear his entire name completely, but the way he carries himself is just too much to handle. Ditto Bonds.
Maybe I'm stuck at 8.
Lee Smith doesn't stand out enough. Mussina is in Schilling territory for me. Kent is a very elite second base candidate, but I found him unlikeable enough that I wouldn't talk myself into voting him at this point. Sheffield, very unlikeable. McGwire and Sosa would make my ballot before Clemens or Bonds but not gonna talk myself into them just yet. Nomar's batting routine alone lost him my vote. I think I'd feel empty not voting 10 though. Gotta make up for some of those fools that only submit one or even zero names!
Let's round out my ballot with Mike Sweeney, and Jim Edmonds. With a sincere Edmonds case likely to be built up with me in future years. I feel like he'll stay on the ballot. (Hoffman and Wagner likely stay on the ballot too?) Sadly, I see Sweeney going the way of Delgado and missing the 5%, but I always liked Sweeney so he gets the nod.
29
Khahan
ID: 25016710 Wed, Jan 07, 2015, 11:16
Greater support for smoltz than biggio did surprise me. I never thought of smoltz as a HoF pitcher. Possibly because he was always 3rd best behind maddux and Glavine. How can the cream of the crop be 3rd best on his team? but then again he was behind maddux and Glavine. Maybe that dimmed him a bit in my view.
I think most agree next year that Griffey is a shoe-in. I'll be very curious to see what happens with Piazza - I suspect he gets in and Raines (his support will climb but he'll probably fall short).
What I'm really curious to see is if Bonds and Clemens support falls further or with the over-stuffed ballot gone does it creep back up. Even stingy voters may vote Griffey, bonds Clemens as the top 3 and leave raines/piazza off the ballot. Enough have left those 2 off already.
I love Schilling. He was a great player, unstoppable in the post season, WS with multiple teams including my red sox and hometown Phillies...but he's not a HoF pitcher to me.
Bagwell - to me he falls a little short. Has the HR at a nice total but just shy of other marks I like to see. Don't know that I'd be outraged if he got in, but I certainly wouldn't be upset if he wasn't elected. He and Schilling are very similar in this respect for me.
For next seasons class I think my ballot would be: Griffey Piazza Raines Clemens Bonds
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