Subject: What are the Fundamental Rules of Baseball?
Posted by: Madman
- [29246911] Fri, Jun 01, 00:17
I've been thinking about this lately, and I've been having trouble coming up with them. If you were asked to give to the court the Fundamental Rules of Baseball, what would they be? The only restriction is that I require the Fundamental Rules of Baseball to not be about a particular organization's interpretation of the rules. I.e., you can't say that a fundamental rule is to have Pine Tar less than 22 inches up the bat because the Official Major League Baseball position puts that limit on each player. No, to be "Fundamental" it must reach across any single organization's interpretation and capture some essence of the game . . .
I started with 9 innings, 3 outs per inning, 3 strikes per out. The basics, right?
9 innings But what about extra innings if the game is tied?
What about rain shortened games?
The minor leagues frequently play 7 inning games, and most kid leagues have from 5 to 7.
OK. 9 innings isn't fundamental.
3 outs per inning.
Once again, this only happens if there is no rain out, power outage, or other umpire-called shortening of the inning. Plus, when baseball first started, there is some question as to exactly how many "outs" a team got per inning and such, IIRC, so this doesn't count, either. At any rate, any rule that says that Umpires can change it at their discretion clearly can't be fundamental.
3 strikes per at bat
Even the major leagues have never agreed on this one, so I don't think you can call this one fundamental. Now, I'm not advocating that we return to the 9 balls, 5 strikes of days past, but that was Baseball, in my book.
Plus, what is a strike? A belt-high pitch in 2000 would not have been a strike, whereas in 2001 it would be. So, even if you want to get picky and require 3 strikes, what does that mean? Since the definition of a strike itself changes, I would suggest that 3 strikes is a meaningless and non-fundamental requirement. Perhaps a rule with 2 strikes per at bat but a tiny strike zone could achieve the same effect as a rule with 3 strikes and the current strike zone.
4 Bases, 2 foul lines OK. So let's go a bit further. I think this is one. Different levels of baseball have different distances between the bases, but virtually all recognized forms of baseball have 4 bases. And 2 foul lines. Anything else is probably Cricket. So we have start, but it's hard.
What are some others?
1
beastiemiked
ID: 430122212 Fri, Jun 01, 00:20
The team with the most runs wins the game.
2
biliruben Sustainer
ID: 231045110 Fri, Jun 01, 00:21
9 players on the field, I would consider fundemental... and we can't forget silly mascots.
The mariner moose is transcendant.
3
Chris
ID: 235563022 Fri, Jun 01, 00:22
...unless the road team scored to take the lead and the rains came before the inning could finish...
How about 9 fielders and 9 men in the lineup. All forms of baseball I can think of have that.
4
Chris
ID: 235563022 Fri, Jun 01, 00:23
My first comment is directed towards post #1 if that isn't already obvious.
5
Gary
ID: 381157822 Fri, Jun 01, 00:27
How about the positions that r played.
Example: Pitcher, Catcher, and so on for the defensive team.
And a batter for the offensive team.
6
Madman
ID: 29246911 Fri, Jun 01, 00:33
Little League doesn't require 9 fielders, and most community based games only require some minimum, say 7 or whatever, befor forfeit.
The team with the most runs wins . . . Chris' point is a good one. Plus what is a "run"? You can win 7-0 in a forfeit in Little League without having anyone cross the plate. . .
Silly mascots. . . I can't think of a counter example to that. Baseball has ALWAYS had silly mascots. And would it really be baseball if there wasn't a silly mascot? I mean, from the Bridegrooms, to the Spiders to Angels to the Padres, baseball is littered with silly mascots . . . I could maybe agree to that.
7
Madman
ID: 29246911 Fri, Jun 01, 00:35
Gary -- Satchel Paige was once famous for walking the bases loaded to face a great hitter (Josh Gibson?) and he told all the fielders to go to the dugout. Plus, there is nothing in the official rules that a team has to field a "Short stop" or whatever. Those are just strategical regularities that people have found work quite well over time.
I do think some sort of "pitcher" may be fundamental. And a "batter" with a "bat". These aren't enough by themselves to call something baseball (vis a vis cricket or softball), but they do differentiate it from Football, say.
8
NEMESIS
ID: 1652010 Fri, Jun 01, 00:37
Here's one rule I never heard of and I'm still skeptical but apparently rule 7.05 states that the batter may be awarded first base if a pickoff attempt sails into the stands or dugout. Has anyone ever seen this? Here's the link... read rule 7.05(h) http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000818.html
9
AdRock
ID: 204552312 Fri, Jun 01, 00:39
1. a ball must be put into play 2. to score a run, a player must touch all four bases
oh yeah,
10
Questor
ID: 194382717 Fri, Jun 01, 00:46
The only fundamental rule I know of is:
"There is no crying in baseball."
11
Gary
ID: 381157822 Fri, Jun 01, 00:47
Baseball is a team sport usually consisting of 5-9 players. One of those players is a pitcher who hurles a ball to a batter(a person with a stick) with the object to get the ball past the batter. The batter on the other hand tries to hit the ball using the stick.
The field that this team sport is played on consist of 4 bases spread out in a diamondshape.
Does someone else want to add to this to fill out our discription of what baseball is.
12
beastiemiked
ID: 430122212 Fri, Jun 01, 00:50
Add something like, the object is to score more runs than the opposition in a agreed upon amount of innings
13
Questor
ID: 194382717 Fri, Jun 01, 00:56
NEMESIS, the link you cited was REFUTING a misplaced belief (based on an article from 20+ years ago) that a wild pickoff attempt could result in the batter being awarded 1st. Read the entire article in the link you cited and you will see the reason for the confusion, and the full explanation. You only get 1st base without hitting the ball via the usual 5 ways people think of, and this one was erroneous.
14
Perm Dude Leader
ID: 351562522 Fri, Jun 01, 01:15
Madman, don't let yourself get confused by trying to fit in pickup games and exhibitions with the fundamentals. Talking about community leagues and even MLB exhibition games (as Paige's was) really have no bearing on what is fundamental.
Pitcher must initiate play by throwing the ball at his catcher.
The Batter has a variety of ways to try to reach the first base. If he chooses to hit the ball he must hit the ball into the playing field, and he must reach first base before an opposing player touches him or the base with the ball, unless an opposing player can catch the hit ball before it hits the ground.
Bases must be run sequentially, in a counterclockwise direction.
pd
15
The Left Wings
ID: 2131321 Fri, Jun 01, 01:23
I think I heard that there are 7 ways to reach first base. I couldn't name them all.
16
Perm Dude Leader
ID: 351562522 Fri, Jun 01, 01:25
You're too young to be dating anyway, Left Wings.
We'll tell you all the ways when you're a bit older.
pd
17
Questor
ID: 194382717 Fri, Jun 01, 01:28
TLW, you are correct, there are indeed a total of 7 ways to reach first ...however, there are only 5 ways to do so WITHOUT HITTING THE BALL
18
NEMESIS
ID: 1755411 Fri, Jun 01, 01:57
Good point Questor... I finally did read the entire article and I see now where the confusion lies.
19
KTxGOD
ID: 53045117 Fri, Jun 01, 02:04
good one Permy dude =)
20
Razor
ID: 13213180 Fri, Jun 01, 02:37
Would anyone care to list the 7? I'm curious. Hit, error, base on balls, HBP, strike out and wild pitch. 2 more without hitting the ball?
Good one, PD.
21
Questor
ID: 194382717 Fri, Jun 01, 02:56
yes razor, there are 2 more ways to get on base without hitting the ball ...you have named the 2 ways to get on base via hitting the ball, plus 3 (of the 5) without doing so
Taking a base on balls (a walk), batter hit by a pitch, passed ball, catcher interference, catcher drops third strike, fielder's choice, and being designated as a pinch runner.
23
Matt S Donor
ID: 57543213 Fri, Jun 01, 03:14
A balk would be one of those. Can't for the life of me think of the other one...
24
NEMESIS
ID: 5451113 Fri, Jun 01, 03:15
There are actually 3 more ways to get on base, fielder's choice, catchers interference and pinch running.
25
Wilmer McLean
ID: 487331412 Fri, Jun 01, 03:17
Ooops, here's the correct seven. Sorry, posted before I double checked the answer.
1. walk 2. hit 3. fielders choice 4. error 5. strikeout with catcher failing to receive the ball 6. catcher's interference 7. pinch runner.
26
F Gump
ID: 25213 Fri, Jun 01, 03:17
FWIW, there are at least 3 ways to get on base when hitting the ball, not 2 ... I am gonna start a new thread on that sort of trivia question in a bit, for those that are interested in something lighter yet informative and thought-provoking
27
Matt S Donor
ID: 57543213 Fri, Jun 01, 03:18
Can you not get on base via the balk?
28
NEMESIS
ID: 5451113 Fri, Jun 01, 03:20
No, only the runners are affected by a balk.
29
F Gump
ID: 25213 Fri, Jun 01, 03:21
whoops, you are all ahead of me, never mind!
30
Matt S Donor
ID: 57543213 Fri, Jun 01, 03:22
Ahhh, yes only the runners. You are correct!
31
F Gump
ID: 25213 Fri, Jun 01, 03:23
wilmer, you left out the 8th way - a fielder's choice
32
F Gump
ID: 25213 Fri, Jun 01, 03:27
Okay, I have a similar trivia question to challenge you sharpies with. Some of the answers are the same as above. The wording is very specific, so read it carefully before answering. It will take a min or 3 to type.
33
NEMESIS
ID: 5451113 Fri, Jun 01, 03:35
Did anyone see the quiz in ESPN magazine that said there are 23 legal ways to get to first base? They actually listed 23 although I thought some of them were too similar and way too technical.
34
F Gump
ID: 25213 Fri, Jun 01, 04:05
NEMESIS, 23 sounds like way too many, did not see the article though.
Here is my question: a batter comes to the plate for an AB. There are 7 results in which he can end up on base, and 6 results in which he does not end up on base. What are the 13 possible results?
35
F Gump
ID: 25213 Fri, Jun 01, 04:08
oops, don't answer here ...wilmer started a trivia thread, i will repost this question on that thread instead, sorry.
36
FRANK DUX
ID: 47042822 Fri, Jun 01, 04:22
fundamental rule #1
if there is a runner in scoring position and first base is open, you ALWAYS intentionally walk Barry Bonds when he is hitting
37
The Left Wings
ID: 2131321 Fri, Jun 01, 05:28
Perm Dude, I'm The Left Wings: I don't date, I share other people's dates. So watch out next time when you go on a date, I'll be around. Oh wait, nevermind. You don't go on dates anyways. =)
38
NEMESIS
ID: 18429914 Fri, Jun 01, 08:05
23 ways sounds like too many and I'm sure we can all dispute some of them but I posted the list as it was written and it's in the thread Baseball Trivia.
39
Perm Dude Leader
ID: 351562522 Fri, Jun 01, 09:49
The Left Wings, since I got married I go on a date with my wife every day we wake up together.
5 1/2 years so far.
pd
p.s. Fundamental Rule: Have to use a baseball
40
Myboyjack Leader
ID: 4443038 Fri, Jun 01, 10:20
I've seen several people in this thread place a limit of 9 players to a side as being fundamental to baseball. However, I just got back from Tampa where I caught a couple of Rangers/Rays games and I'm certain that when I wrote down the line-ups onto my scorecard that I wrote down 10 names per side.
Then again, I'm not sure what I saw from those two "teams" counted as baseball, anyway.
41
Whitey Sustainer
ID: 2543539 Fri, Jun 01, 10:32
Madman - I think it is correct to say that 3 outs per inning (or half-inning if you like) is a fundamental rule of baseball. Wouldn't you agree that if 3 outs are not recorded in one team's turn at-bat (due to rain, power outage, etc.), then it is not considered an official inning?
42
Catfish Sustainer
ID: 71158811 Fri, Jun 01, 11:09
The most fundamental rule in baseball, and the rule that sets it apart from many other team sports, is that a baseball game cannot end in a tie.
That's why I like it so much because I can go to the ballpark and, theoretically, stay forever.
However this isn't true in rainouts, or in kids' versions of the game.
Kids' baseball has many wonderful variations of the game adapted to the ages and abilities of the players. (And no, I am not including the "four strikes for ADD" version ;->). In the year after Tee Ball, my son played a version called Rookie Ball which used a pitching machine instead of a pitcher. One of the dads (usually), in a non-team role and with no title, fed this machine with baseballs. Two kids stood, one at each side of the mound, in a curious role called "pitcher" but they were really sort of an extra rank of infielders.
There was one player in Rookie Ball who didn't get his first hit until the last game of the season, and promptly set off for third base. The direct way. That may have been an individual accommodation of the rules, however.
In Tee-Ball, kids did not throw to the base to make an out: if they managed to find the ball at all in the dandelions and weeds of the August outfield, they just stopped running, raised the ball above their heads, and the play ended.
43
Guru
ID: 330592710 Fri, Jun 01, 11:37
So I guess Knoblauch could still thrive as a second baseman in Tee-Ball...
44
Catfish Sustainer
ID: 71158811 Fri, Jun 01, 11:42
Guru, the shirt would be a bit tight.
45
yo Leader
ID: 331341410 Fri, Jun 01, 12:02
Relief pitchers must walk to the mound. They can't use a golf cart.
46
Madman
ID: 29246911 Fri, Jun 01, 16:18
Whitey -- There are dozens of innings every year in the MLB alone that are not "complete" in so far as 3 outs are not recorded.
Bottom of 9th, 1 or 2 out, winning run scores. Bottom of 7th, 1 or 2 out, lead run scores, rain out, I think the full inning stands. _______________
PD I think community leagues and so forth should count in our interpretation of what "Baseball" is. Afterall, we are defining "Baseball" here, and we're part of the community. T-Ball wouldn't count, because that's T-Ball as opposed to baseball. But Little League should count. 1950's style community games. Negro Leagues (I thought Paige told his fielders to sit in a real game. Even if not, he COULD have). Those all should count. Why shouldn't they? Afterall, if an exhibition game isn't Baseball, then what sport are they Exhibiting?
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