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0 Subject: Talladega

Posted by: Sludge
- Sustainer [561241214] Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 10:19

Yo, KKB, what's your take on the Earnhardt pass? My memory's a little fuzzy, but didn't nearly the exact same thing happen last year to Marlin, and he got black flagged?
1Revvingparson
      Donor
      ID: 211232220
      Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 10:42
1. The driver who did it is named, Earnhardt.

2. The driver who would have benefited, Harvick.

You tell me if they rolls hadn't been reversed that Harvick wouldn't have been black flagged.

Doug
2KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 25337310
      Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 14:56
No black flag, IMHO. The reason I say no black flag is because Junior was already passing Kenseth when he went below the yellow line as a result of Kenseth coming down the track towards him. Also, it could be argued that Junior didn't really HAVE to go below the yellow line to pass, but seemed to do so in order to make it as safe a pass as possible.

I think Marlin did this to Jeff Gordon at a race last year, or something like that. However, in that case, I seem to recall Gordon blocking for position and Marlin dipping down AFTER Gordon went for the block. In this case, Kenseth went for the block after Junior was already beside him and by then it was too late.

Personally, I think NASCAR needs to tighten up on some rules and make things a little more clearcut and not so grey, especially ones like this. I think they should just say that if your left-side tires go completely below the yellow line, then you're black flagged. I say make the only exception be if you're bumped (literally, not just by your own choosing) down there.

3Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 561241214
      Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 15:09
Hmmm... apparently the Marlin black flag was this year's Daytona. That was such a yawner, that I didn't even remember that it was so recent. For some reason, I thought that the two were more similar than you described. I wonder if someone could find some video of both of them without buying a trackpass subscription to NASCAR.com. I'd be curious, personally.

Myself, I could see the call going either way. What I don't like, however, is the fact that NASCAR tries to judge intent. I'm a day removed from the race, so my memory's becoming a little fuzzy on it, but I thought for sure that E started below the line before he had passed Kenseth. Apparently, however, judging by NASCAR's latest decisions regarding passing, a car is considered to be passed as soon as the car in behind's front bumper gets past the car in front's back bumper. (See Vicker, for example.)

I would add an addendum to your rule, KKB. In order to prevent feints towards a passing car, the car doing the bumping gets the black flag.
4Challenger
      ID: 135231212
      Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 15:15
No black flag.

I saw an interview with Kenseth and he originally stated he was not aware Dale Jr was next to him when he (Kenseth) drop down until Jr shot passed him.

The announcers all throughout the race kept saying that NASCAR was going to take into account if a driver was being forced below the yellow line thru blocking or avoiding an accident or the posiblity of an accident or merely using dropping below to pass, in their opinion.

Steve Park was black flagged from passing under the yellow line and gaining a spot directly behind Dale Jr. IMHO, he warranted a black flag
5Challenger
      ID: 135231212
      Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 15:19
Btw, I just finished rewatching the race and Dale was up to Kenseth's wheel when Kenseth started down and Dale was at Matt's door when he dropped below the yellow line. IMHO, as near as I could tell with the front camera angle FOX used for their original shot and all subsequent replays.
6KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 25337310
      Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 15:33
Sludge, "I would add an addendum to your rule, KKB. In order to prevent feints towards a passing car, the car doing the bumping gets the black flag."

Definitely agree. So when will NASCAR hire us to straighten them out? ;)

7Revvingparson
      Donor
      ID: 211232220
      Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 15:55
This article perhaps states the bigger problem that has come out of the "non-black flag" call..
"Show us the Proof"

8Challenger
      ID: 135231212
      Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 17:42
Can't see how anyone could agree with "Show us the Proof" article when Fox showed plenty of replays, and even named Jr's move the "Fox Chevy Winning Moment".
9Revvingparson
      Donor
      ID: 211232220
      Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 17:53
Just a question, did Sadler not drop below the yellow following in Jr's tracks, and if so was he not improving his position and therefore shuld have been balcked flaged?

re:8, New fans to NASCAR will possibly not become long term fans if they sense that rules are "subjectively" enforced, rather than known ahead of time. NASCAR has got to be careful not to start looking like all-star wrestling. Let the drivers and not subjective rules dictate the outcome.

Doug
10Challenger
      ID: 135231212
      Mon, Apr 07, 2003, 18:59
Yes Sadler did drop below the yellow line. He was not penalized as he drop back to allow the guy he was passing while below the yellow to get back in front as the "so-called" rules allow to avoid being penalized.

Since you brought up Sadler, he said in an interview he thinks Jr's pass was within the new rules/guidelines set by NASCAR because he believed Earnhardt was attempting to avoid an accident. It was not mention by him, to him, about him being below the yellow line.

My question is what would NASCAR have done to Sadler if he did not drop back and allow the car he was passing to get back in front of him? I personally think Sadler was reacting like Earnhardt and trying to avoid an accident. Remember earlier I stated that Kenseth stated he was not aware that Junior was there.

The real controversy is not Earnhardt, but the fact that NASCAR rulings have admittedly be wrong in the past and they now appear to be favoring certain drivers when they go and rule differently they previously before. IE - Marlin's pass of Gordon should have been allowed as I believe Gordon was blocking the pass by Marlin as Marlin was just getting up beside Goedon's rear quarter panel, if memory serves. IMHO
11Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 26073119
      Tue, Apr 08, 2003, 09:42
Hmmm... I watched Inside Winston Cup last night, and they (of course) showed the replays. He was beside (that's as strong as I'll say, because I'm not sure if he was past Kenseth already...) Kenseth when he went below the yellow line, but he wasn't beside Johnson, and he passed Johnson. Just throwing that out there.
12Challenger
      ID: 135231212
      Tue, Apr 08, 2003, 11:55
Sludge, NASCAR has deemed being along side a car, any part of the car, which was previously in front of the car in question, as an intention of the act of passing.

Learn this 2 weeks ago (Texas race) when in the Busch race the leader past a car in front of him on the left, passing on the right is allowable, at a restart. The car in front clearly didn't get up to speed, appeared to have spun the tires, and the leader drop down and reached the car in front's rear wheel well at the start/finish line and NASCAR blacked flagged him and referrred to what I previously stated above in this 1st paragraph. The driver was trying to avoid what looked to be an accident on it's way to happening, IMHO.

Thus Junior being past Kenseth or Johnson is not the issue.
13Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 561241214
      Tue, Apr 08, 2003, 11:59
Yes, yes. I know all that Challenger. But that doesn't explain the lack of punishment for Gordon at Darlington when he was in the "act of passing" the leader on a restart late in the race. Not only are you not supposed to pass on the left, but you aren't supposed to pass the leader at all until he is past the start/finish line on a restart. So where's the difference? Gordon was in the "act of passing" on that restart, and in fact, damn near had him completely passed before the leader crossed the start/finish line.

NASCAR can explain it all they want, but there's little doubt in my mind that they apply their rules inconsistently.
14Challenger
      ID: 135231212
      Tue, Apr 08, 2003, 12:49
Uhhh, I was on vacation and didn't get to watch the race at Darlington. So I can't comment on Gordon's pass, but thanks for bringing it up. I now know what the other posts are referring when they mention Gordon's pass.

Isn't that the one where Busch and Craven "rubbed" their way to the finish line? If so NASCAR should adopt the PGA tour's ad "These guys are good!" :)

What were the driver/announcers comments on "Inside Winston Cup" about Junior's pass? Just curious.
15Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 561241214
      Tue, Apr 08, 2003, 13:16
Challenger -

You're not referring to Gordon's pass at Texas, are you?

Yeah, Darlington's the race where Busch and Craven had the closest recorded finish ever. Awesome finish to the race.

Waltrip, Benson and Kenny Wallace all agreed that it was a legal pass because they felt that Earnhardt was trying to avoid a wreck. Kenny Wallace doesn't really count, though. That guy's a loon. I still don't see why the "trying to avoid a wreck" argument doesn't apply to Vickers, though. *Scratching head*
16Craig H
      ID: 48320715
      Tue, Apr 08, 2003, 13:35
I was at the races at Talladega this weekend. It was so blatantly obvious that NASCAR did every thing possible to set Earnhardt up for the win it was ridiculous.

Let's start with Saturdays Busch race. Earnhardt was running low on fuel, and could not finish without running out of gas. Amazingly with 2 laps to go somebody "stalled" on the back straight away causing a caution to come out and the race to finish under yellow. This gave Junior barely enough gas to finish (he ran out of gas on back straight after the finish). I want to know how a car running 180 MPH stalls, and doesn't have enough momentum to get off the track. Sounds like he got the "Call" to me.

On sunday:
While Earnhardt made it through the wreck at the beginning of the race relatively unscathed he had some damage to the front of his car. Every lap he the caution was out, he kept coming in for further repairs. As soon as it appeared they had the car back where they wanted it, the next lap they went back to green. Coincidence? perhaps.

Later in the race, Earnhardt and Park got seperated from the pack and were quickly losing ground (they were half a track back and losing ground quickly). I told my brother in-law to watch, within next few laps NASCAR would throw a caution for "Debris on the Track". 2 Laps later, the yellow comes out for "Debris on the track". More like Nascar's golden boy was about to get lapped and they needed to get him back to the front.

This all happened before the Illegal pass in the last few laps.

I'll give NASCAR credit, they know where their bread is buttered, half the people in the stands were wearing Earnhard JR shirts, hats etc. We all know if this guys last name was anything but Dale Earnhard Jr. he'd have about the same number of fans as the other young guys, Newman, Johnson, Busch etc have.. which isn't many.

I've gone to my last race until someone can convince me I'm not seeing the automotive version of professional wrestling.
17Challenger
      ID: 135231212
      Tue, Apr 08, 2003, 13:56
Gee Craig, Are you not A Junior fan? :) How would you feel if you knew the debris was from either Park or Junior that caused to which you're referring? Announcers said it appeared to them it was. I was in another room when I hear them say it, so I don't have an actual opinion. And I haven't watch that replay as of yet.

Concerning the last caution in the Busch race, I saw that car in the tv coverage as to which your referring. I saw it a lap or 2 before the caution was called and it was obvious to me it wasn't going to make it back to the pits. I was pissed that the driver and his crew allowed him to stay out and cause rhe caution. But in live tv interviews, several crew chiefs said they were not going to come in even though they figured they were going to be short a 1/2 a lap or lap. They were going to roll the dice.

I just wonder if any drivers had enough gas to make it to the end. We'll never know.
18Craig H
      ID: 48320715
      Tue, Apr 08, 2003, 14:26
No, I'm not a Junior fan. I wasn't a fan of his father either, but at least I respected him. I certainly don't have a problem with people liking him, but I do have a problem with NASCAR selectivly enforcing their rules to control the outcome of the race.

All I heard on the radio driving to the track was how if you went below the yellow line, you would be penalized. There would have been 75,000 pissed off race fans if junior would have had to do a stop and go with 5 laps left.

I've heard talk that NASCAR was fixed and dismissed it as silly. After giving things I've seen over the years, I've changed my mind.


For instance, I was at a race at Talladega about 10 years ago (Wish I could remember the year). Geoff Bodine was flat out running away from the pack early in the race. It was amazing, he had a 1/3 to a 1/2 track advantage on the rest of the pack 30 or so laps into the race when NASCAR threw a yellow for a mandatory tire check. Do you think Geoff Bodine might have made it out of the pits first considering his large advantage? Not a chance, Earnhardt Sr. made it out first.


19KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 25337310
      Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 16:50
Ok, the more I think about it, the more I'm not sure about Earnhardt's pass.

First off, there was plenty of room between he and Kenseth, so I don't buy the "avoiding an accident" claim.

Secondly, Junior "improved his position" as a result of going below the yellow line. Could he have done it without going below the yellow line? Maybe, but the rule doesn't state that. NASCAR has been very clear about this in the past (at least when they've ruled on it). If you go below the yellow line, without being forced below it (see my first point), and improve your position, you get black flagged.

Third, I'm not sure about all the cautions and all the going back to green stuff, but 8 laps to clean up a wreck? It takes about 3 min (IIRC from the broadcast) to get around Talladega during a caution, so that's 24 minutes. For what? I seem to recall it taking less time for them to fix the guardrail at Pocono last year after Park and Junior's spectacular crash. If you look down the line at the rest of the cautions, the longest one after that was 5, then a 4-lapper, and 3 3-lappers. So what's wrong with this picture?

Fourth, the Busch race was a farce. I can't count how many times I've seen NASCAR let a race continue with a car that has stalled and made its way off the track. I don't recall if the car had made its way off the track, but surely NASCAR could have told the driver something like, "Get your butt off the track or we're docking money and points" if they really wanted to, right?

Lastly, NASCAR indeed knows where their bread and butter is at. Junior puts butts in the seats. Junior sells merchandise. Junior is NASCAR right now, for better or for worse. And what better way to show how big he is than to help him be the only driver to win 4 straight Talladega races? I don't know if there is a conspiracy, but I'll go back to what I said earlier. NASCAR needs to tighten up some of their rules or else, like Revvingparson referred to #9, they're going to start looking more and more like the WWE.

BTW, the "Inside NASCAR" group might as well be DEI. Kenny Wallace? Filled in for Steve Park last year. Michael Waltrip? Uh, yeah. Johnny Benson and Ken Schrader? Have they ever said that they didn't like something? I like the guys a lot, but they're like the Paula Abdul's of the show. If they disagree with something, they're more often silent than not about it.

20Challenger
      ID: 135231212
      Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 18:11
KKB, If you're going flat out at 190 mph and you see a car coming down as you've committed youself to passing the car, what would be your reaction?

My reaction would be exactly as Junior's, find a way to avoid it. I've avoided severals accidents in my life where my passenger(s) said they believed they could not have confidently avoided the accident. Now I admit my driving skills would not rival a professional nor was I traveling 190 mph, but Darrell Waltrip did not originally/immediately announce to everyone that there was plenty of room for Junior. If memory serves me right, I think it was on the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th replay before he opened that can of worms. And yes, I knew he opened that can at the time and I so wanted to shove my foot in his mouth and say to him Mikey says you're to old and retarted....retired that's why you're only in the booth. :)

Now, if you please, how long having you been thinking about it (Junior having enough room not to go below the yellow line) and what was your original reaction? Did you think an accident was about to happen or what? Course this question only works if you saw the incident without prior knowledge to the controversy.

You know, it's amazing how many of us NASCAR fans keep coming back each week considering all of NASCAR's inconsistencies. It's becoming a regular, weekly issue. Pitiful! Just pure Pitiful!
21KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 266182910
      Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 18:46
Challenger, first off, I don't drive 190 MPH for a living. These guys do. These guys also put their cars less than a foot from the wall week in and week out at those speeds, something I can't even do going 60 MPH without having a heart attack. If you honestly think Junior was having a problem with his car and the proximity of other cars at those speeds, then you need to look back at who the last 4 winners at Talladega are. Also take another look at the tape of the race and you'll see that drivers were racing each other 3 wide, 6 or more rows deep, closer than Junior ever got to Kenseth.

Secondly, what does it matter how long I've thought about it? I have a life I have to live. NASCAR's life is NASCAR. These are decisions that they're supposed to be experts on, yet even as recently as TEX, they still don't know what the rule is about passing coming to the yellow flag. They don't even know their rule about spoilers. They held Steve Park in the pits until his team fixed a broken spoiler attachment, yet other cars were riding around all day with the same problem (all as a result of crashes or other beating and banging). And what about the ESPN article from #7 which points to last year's race and states, "[Junior's] car was found to be below the minimum height requirement after the race [yet he] was docked no points, kept his race victory and was fined less for the incident than a winning driver who had been found with the same infraction earlier that year." Again, no consistency and showing that NASCAR appears to have about as much understanding of their rules and regulations as NASCAR fans do: very little.

As for the pass, there was NEVER any question in my mind about a possible accident. I knew Kenseth never came down far enough for that to happen. Go back to #2 where I said, "Also, it could be argued that Junior didn't really HAVE to go below the yellow line to pass, but seemed to do so in order to make it as safe a pass as possible." But now that I look at that statement, that's exactly what NASCAR is supposed to regulate. You go below the line, even if it's to make the pass more safe than it normally would be, and you get black flagged.

As for coming back week after week, it's not the die-hard fans NASCAR should be worrying about. It's the fans that have just recently picked up on the sport and still have a lot of questions in their mind (like when do you red flag at the end of the race and when do you finish under yellow?) that NASCAR has no definitive answers for that they need to worry about. Those are the fans that can make or break the sport.

22Challenger
      ID: 135231212
      Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 19:30
Ok! Short answers forth coming.

Challenger, first off, I don't drive 190 MPH for a living.

Never said you did.

Secondly, what does it matter how long I've thought about it? I have a life I have to live

You said you're thinking about it. post 19, paragraph 1

We are now switching to spoiler talk? I've already stated NASCAR is regularly inconsistent. BTW, I agree, Park was hosed on that one and the thought crossed my mind at the time.

As for the pass, there was NEVER any question in my mind about a possible accident. I knew Kenseth never came down far enough for that to happen.

So you agree with me. Please go to my post #4, paragraph 3 about the announcers saying NASCAR was going to look at it different. (paraphrased)

Concerning both our comments on the fans coming back. Both good points, but if I was a major sponsor, I would be in the big red truck stating NASCAR better get their act together or I'll find a charity who could use my $$$$$$$$$$.

Dinners on! Have a nice day! Got a life to live don't ya know! :)



23KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 266182910
      Wed, Apr 09, 2003, 19:57
LOL! Good one.
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