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Subject: Dodge ends contract with Bill Davis Racing
Posted by: Challenger
- [135231212] Fri, May 30, 2003, 06:25
CHARLOTTE, N.C. (AP) -- Dodge Motorsports has terminated its contract with Bill Davis Racing, cutting off all support and access to information for drivers Ward Burton and Kenny Wallace.
Todd Goyer, managing director for Dodge Motorsports, said Thursday the contract was broken before last week's Coca-Cola 600 because of a "material breach of agreement."
"We do have enough reason to reach the conclusion that we did," Goyer said.
There has been speculation Davis has been in discussion with Toyota, which will become the first foreign automaker in NASCAR next season when it enters Tundras in the Truck Series.
Goyer would not comment further on what led to the split with BDR. A spokeswoman for Davis said the car owner would not comment Thursday night and perhaps throughout the team's stay in Dover, Del., where it's racing this weekend.
Davis can still use Dodge Intrepids for Burton, Wallace and Busch Series driver Scott Wimmer, but he'll now have to pay for all of his equipment.
He'll also be shut out of the information sharing that goes on between Dodge teams. That access can be vital, considering NASCAR heavyweights Roger Penske, Chip Ganassi and Ray Evernham are part of the Dodge contingent.
Dodge ends contract with Bill Davis Racing
Wow! With sponsors $$ getting harder to obtain, this is a major faux pas! In terms of $$, I wonder how much this is costing those teams? |
| 1 | KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 513102216
Sat, May 31, 2003, 11:47
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Ward Burton and Kenny Wallace are now sitting in the same position as Ken Schrader. They're all decent drivers, but without the collaboration and the free equipment, it's going to get tougher and tougher for the Bill Davis racers to compete. You know it's going to start with cutting a dollar here and a dollar there and they're going to start ending up with subpar equipment. Now, when they wreck, it'll be a much bigger deal. They screwed up big time on this one, IMO. And if it has to do with the Toyota stuff, why would they risk their success now for a car that, from everything I've read, won't be in WC until at least 2006 or 2007? That's a long way off. Further, why would you want to jeopardize any relationship that involves some of the biggest names in all of racing: Penske, Ganassi, Evernham, and Petty? They should have known that Dodge will be doing everything possible to make those teams competitive. They don't want to lose those big names.
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| 2 | KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 513102216
Sat, May 31, 2003, 15:57
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I'm listening to the "Happy Hour" show (though Happy Hour is not happening) and they mentioned that apparently Bill Davis was looking at Toyota for the truck series, which would be much sooner than Toyota in WC. That makes a bit more sense from Bill Davis' standpoint, but I still question why they would mess up a WC contract for a truck series contract.
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| 6 | Challenger
ID: 135231212
Sat, May 31, 2003, 17:00
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KKB, I believe the truck info was in my original link so I was assuming you already knew that info from your post 2 when I read your post 1. In turn, I didn't originally have a comment to your post other than my initial opinion of stun silence, mouth wide open of Bill Davis's apparent faux pas.
I have also read about rumors that Chip Ganassi, or his racing team, has been checking into possibly running the Toyota's in the future. Now could it be that Dodge is sending a big warning out to their other NASCAR teams which they sponsor and chose the least popular team of the Dodge contingent for banishment? By least popular I mean in terms of fan popularity. Just a guess.
Funny thing is Kenny "Herman" Wallace never shuts up and gives his opinions freely. Thru this consequence Herman has been noticeably quiet. Even the other non Dodge NASCAR teams have been silent.
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| 7 | Challenger
ID: 135231212
Sat, May 31, 2003, 23:07
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Found this article which provides a little more detail into the rumor of Davis possibly going to Toyota. Apparently he's providing techincal advise to Toyota and the recent NASCAR approved Toyota cylinder head appears to be based on a Dodge.
This article also goes further to say Tony Stewart's confiscated car was given to Toyota along with a NASCAR provided Robert Yates Ford engine for scrutiny and detailed examination.
Things aren't all rosy for Dodge
Dodge's decision to drop factory support of the Davis team, because DaimlerChrysler officials hint the team has been providing technical advice to Toyota, was the talk of the Winston Cup garage yesterday ... except in Davis' hauler, where he and his crew were mum.
'No comment for the foreseeable future,' is all Davis is saying this weekend.
The surprising Dodge move has some key Winston Cup figures thinking that Toyota may be preparing to jump into Winston Cup racing sooner than expected. Tony Stewart said he has been told that NASCAR officials have given his Texas car to Toyota engineers for scrutiny -- NASCAR confiscated that car for uncertain reasons, and the sanctioning body hasn't given it back.
Greg Zipadelli, Stewart's crew chief, said NASCAR also has given a Robert Yates' Ford motor to Toyota for detailed examination, in order to give Toyota a quicker jump out of the box.
Stewart and Zipadelli are angry over those developments.
Toyota will join NASCAR's Truck tour next season, and the company has been expected to move up to Winston Cup in 2006 or 2007.
Toyota's new NASCAR Truck engine cylinder head was approved 10 days ago -- it is based in several respects on the current Dodge cylinder head design, according to Dodge sources. It is unclear if that key engine piece was in any way related to Dodge's latest move. NASCAR Truck tour engines are identical to NASCAR's Winston Cup engines.
According to some rivals in the Winston Cup garage, the Dodge move might actually work in Davis' favor. If Toyota has been working with him, then Toyota might now be able to test its mettle in actual NASCAR combat, still under cover, so to speak.
Now I can understand why Dodge is calling BDR's actions "intolerable." But what can Dodge do against NASCAR????
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| 8 | KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 513102216
Sun, Jun 01, 2003, 14:32
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If the stuff about Stewart's car is true, that's just plain ridiculous on the part of NASCAR! Why would they give them a car from another manufacturer for scrutiny? I don't recall them giving one of each of the other cars to the other manufacturers, so why give Toyota any kind of advantage like that? NASCAR always wonders why it's not legitimized as a sport and it's crap like this that keeps them from getting there, IMO. You didn't see the NFL handing over playbooks from the Patriots to the Texans, did you? I think NASCAR is trying to get Toyota in the series' to legitimize themselves, but they're royally screwing the manufacturers they've got if this stuff is true.
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| 9 | Wahoo
ID: 3654626
Mon, Jun 02, 2003, 08:13
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KKB, NASCAR has always been about sharing what other teams have and whatever NACAR confiscates is available for all teams to see. Car inspections are not done behind closed doors, all teams are able to be there to see what others are doing. Stewart's car was available for other teams to inspect, just as each spring, carb, fuel cell... NASCAR confiscates is available to all teams. Giving Toyota an engine and car let's them have the opportunity to start out in the sport competitively by seeing what the other teams/manufacturers are doing. When Dodge came back to NASCAR, I'm sure they had the same opportunities Toyota is getting, it just wasn’t reported. Sharing the info makes for better competition unlike expansion teams in other sports that take years to be competitive. I’m not always in agreement with what NASCAR does, especially in their interpretation of their rules, but I can’t argue with this one.
Now, how long ‘till VW has a team!? ;-}
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| 10 | KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 513102216
Mon, Jun 02, 2003, 17:51
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Wahoo, that's all fine, well, and good, but then what's the point of R&D? If NASCAR is just going to hand your car over to a competing team for them to take every last measurement they want, what was the point of all the millions of dollars spent in building the car? Sure everything is out in the open during inspection, but you don't see other teams walking up with their calipers measuring everything. Otherwise, someone would have figured out DEI's dominance at restrictor plate races by now. Things in NASCAR are not governed by measurements of feet, inches or even half-inches. They're measured in fractions upon fractions of inches. You can't see that stuff by just looking at a car during inspection. Sorry, but I just don't buy the "make them competitive" argument. I'm all for Toyota being competitve as long as it's at their own expense. NASCAR has a set of templates that the car measurements must be within. After that, it's up to the manufacturer and teams to figure out what works. By handing over an entire car (if they did), that's a LOT different than giving them a head start. That's saving them millions upon millions of dollars that other manufacturers had to spend. Maybe Gibbs should be due some compensation? I don't know, but I don't think it's right to hand it over for free. As for Dodge, they really didn't need much after they got Evernham. They had all the info they really needed, IMO.
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| 11 | Challenger
ID: 135231212
Mon, Jun 02, 2003, 19:09
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UPDATE:
NASCAR MAINTAINS IT KEEPS CONFISCATED ITEMS
[ 5/31/2003 ]
BY TEAM FORD RACING CORRESPONDENT
Dover, Del. — NASCAR strongly denied published reports that it gave parts confiscated from the Winston Cup garage to the Toyota startup effort.
One such written account attributed Tony Stewart and crew chief Greg Zipadelli saying NASCAR had given Toyota the No. 20 Home Depot Pontiac, which was confiscated during the Texas race weekend. The same report indicated NASCAR had given Toyota the Robert Yates Racing engine confiscated during The Winston weekend.
However, NASCAR Vice President of Corporate Communication, Jim Hunter, addressing both allegations said that the parts are still in NASCAR’s impound in the Concord, N.C., Research and Development Center.
Hunter added, “We spoke with [Joe] Gibbs last Tuesday about getting the parts back to the car, that we're going to give him and he's working to comply with the requirements"
"NASCAR would never give a competitor a confiscated part," Hunter added. "It would be foolish to put confiscated parts back into circulation."
This is what happens when secrets are kept about public happenings. We run rampant with our thoughts and acquisitions.
It is my belief that NASCAR would provide Toyota with parts to base their car, engines, transmissions, rearends, etc, etc,. This would be done in order for Toyota or any other manufacturer to know what is legal, not legal by NASCAR rules. It's as plain and as simple as that.
However, I cannot condone giving Toyota access to specilize parts such as a Robert Yates engine or a Gibbs race car. These special items are unique with innotative & ingenuity and rightful should be these organizations decisions to provide Toyota with them, not NASCAR and their idea of "if it's confiscated by us, it's ours to do with as we please".
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| 12 | Wahoo
ID: 3254536
Tue, Jun 03, 2003, 12:51
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The point of R&D is to keep an advantage over the other teams, like DEI has for 4 races out of 36;). Teams have to constantly find new innovations or you’re just another ‘also ran’ and have trouble finding a good sponsor to put up the millions so you can do more research. No, teams do not get out the calipers but by the time Toyota gets into Cup, all they’ll have is 3 year old information anyway and will still invest millions to be competitive. The templates are just a guideline and don’t define every aspect of what can be done, that’s why they have inspections. The thing is Stewart’s car didn’t even fit the templates. And there’s plenty of changes that are observable and not measured at fraction’s of an inch. Despite NASCAR’s denial, I wouldn’t put it past them to have let Toyota ‘borrow an item’ for a while.
Evernham basically walked over to Dodge with the Chevy ‘playbook’.
How long until Toyota steals a top crew chief?
Is it right? Probably not to most people but I do see reasoning of why NASCAR would do it.
Challenger – I wish I could run rampant in my acquisitions. ;-}
"if it's confiscated by us, it's ours to do with as we please". That’s exactly the way NASCAR operates IMO. If you don’t want to play by their rules, go somewhere else.
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| 13 | KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 504322714
Tue, Jun 03, 2003, 13:41
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I have no problem with a manufacturer stealing a top crew chief and using their info, though Evernham wasn't your average crew chief either. Still, it's one thing for a manufacturer to buy information and something completely different for the sanctioning body of the sport to hand over similar info, IMO. But I guess it doesn't matter since NASCAR didn't hand it over. I guess it's just the way they deal with other stuff that makes allegations like this even come up to begin with.
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| 14 | Challenger
ID: 135231212
Tue, Jun 03, 2003, 19:20
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NASCAR Notebook
Toyota to help Davis with $$? Regardless of what Bill Davis' problems might be with Dodge, Toyota officials are saying privately that money will not be a problem for Davis, that they'll do whatever it takes.
Dodge officials are declining to confirm reports that they have filed legal papers in Michigan over the issue or to describe the gist of those papers. (Confirmed below)
The Dodge-Davis story was one of the biggest this weekend, along with worries about Toyota increasing among Winston Cup tour teams.
According to two sources, Toyota's entry into NASCAR's Truck series could lead both General Motors and Ford officials to reconsider their companies' sponsorship support. If Ford and GM back off, the Truck tour could become a Dodge vs. Toyota battlefield, with the Japanese car maker challenging the German automaker
Cat is out of the bag now!
Dodge files suit seeking money back from Davis
NASCAR team owner Bill Davis' alleged moonlighting for Toyota might end up costing him more than just his team's official association with Dodge.
In the lawsuit, DaimlerChrysler alleges that at least one member of Davis' team represented Toyota at a NASCAR wind tunnel test in Marrietta, Ga., on April 30. The suit says NASCAR officials performed aerodynamic tests on a Toyota prototype that bore decals from Davis' team and was powered by a Dodge engine. The suit says this violates a clause in Davis' contract with DaimlerChrysler that requires Davis and his team to "represent, endorse or otherwise promote" Dodge products.
The suit also says DaimlerChrysler "fears that (Davis' team) has or will share DaimlerChrysler's confidential information with Toyota, in violation of the agreement," and wants the courts to force Davis' team to keep secret any confidential information they have obtained from Dodge.
1st off, one may wonder why BDR would use a Dodge engine in the Toyota car/truck for wind tunnel testing. I would think that the car would need to be at the proper NASCAR required weight for accurate results in the testing. It's not an excuse for BDR & Toyota to use a Dodge engine, but.......
Next, I wonder how soon BDR will begin using Toyota manufactured parts on the racecars/trucks? Btw, who is the driver for BDR in the truck series or do they even have a team in NCTS?
Wahoo, reading my quote back to me reminded me of my belief of what goes into the powers-to-be/managements head when they are on the throne of power......"It's my way or the highway!"
Now I ask y'all, How do you personally feel about Toyota coming to NASCAR? I really don't have much feelings for against, but I will miss a true American series, even though Dodge is own by a German company. I've always own an American made product, except for the VW bug in the earlier 80's when it was too expensive to drive my hotrod on the street any longer. Talk about alot of maintenance, that VW bug required me to adjust the valves as much my Challenger - just less of them.
Anyway we currently own a Chevy 4x4, Buick Regal, and a Lincoln so I'vr appreciated the fact that NASCAR required the teams to use an American made product.
I use to be a big CART fan, but my Country is not represented that much any longer. I can't remember the last time I watched a CART race for longer than 10 mintues.
In turn, as much as a race fan as I am, guess I'm not truly looking forward to outsiders coming in. Now there's even a couple of Aussie drivers in NHRA. :)
America - Land of opportunity! :)
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| 15 | Wahoo
ID: 21991117
Tue, Jun 03, 2003, 21:09
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I was thinking BDR might get some support from Toyota if all this was true. Now if BDR was sharing the Dodge info with Toyota, that would be wrong. He is, after all, under contract with them.;-}
I found this interesting knowing Penske and Ganassi ties with Toyota…
And already Dodge's decision to drop Davis appears to be having negative repercussions within Dodge's NASCAR camp.
On the Toyota side of things, there is a gathering PR storm which Toyota officials may quickly have to address. And there is increasing speculation in the Winston Cup garage as to who Toyota might want to pick to be its 'Ray Evernham' in leading the transition into the sport's highest division. If Ganassi does expand his Toyota ties to include NASCAR racing, then his Andy Graves might be the logical pick. Graves did a standout job helping Ganassi create a Winston Cup championship caliber team.
You would think they could have used any properly weighted engine in the tunnel tests, why a Dodge, was it handy? I didn’t see a BDR team in the truck series after a quick check of the NASCAR site. And there is a lack of info about this on the NASCAR site too!?
I’ve got a song going through my head now…Limp Bizkit - My Way
I've been a fan of 'auto racing' in all forms. I watched the first complete Daytona 500 race coverage, ’78 I believe. I didn’t understand why they didn't cover full races at that time, I was always in front of the tube if there was a race on. Of course I watched them at my grandfathers house and big time 'rasslin was on along with the roller derby. I may have been born a Northerner but I got some Hillbilly in my background. Ah the memories...
I was also a fan of CART but lost interest when the IRL started, Tony George killed the Indy 500 for me. The only reason I watched Indy this year was to see how Robbie did. BTW, anyone see how far apart the cars were at the start of Indy? And I never remembered the cars being so fragile.
I’ll watch a drag race now and then, keep an eye on the F1 headlines, and like watching a WRC race once and a while.
It just doesn’t feel right knowing Toyota will be there although it’ll still be my favorite form of motorsports. NASCAR opened the door, when they allowed front wheel drive bodies in the series. And then again, that was the downfall of the great American automobile too. I’m sure allowing other manufacturers is best for the sport and will eventually put it at the level CART was years ago. The last of the good ol’ boys are just about out of NASCAR and I’m sure you won’t see them in a Toyota… times are changing.
I've owned VW's (all bugs with the exception of the one I own now) since I started driving, they've always been reliable, fun, and easy to work on. Nothing like pulling an engine and replacing the clutch by yourself in a couple of hours. I've had a few American cars too, Plymouth Horizon (VW powered), Chevy Van, and a ’70 Buick GS convertible. Oh yeah, the Dodge Caravan kid hauler my wife drives too. Never been a fan of the eastern imports.
Sorry for the long post and rambling thoughts…
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| 16 | KrazyKoalaBears
Donor
ID: 504322714
Wed, Jun 04, 2003, 15:32
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Nothing is purely American or German or Japanese or anything anymore, so I have no problem with Toyota coming into the series. I figure that if they're assembled in America, then that's creating jobs that wouldn't be there if they assembled them overseas. That's about as American as any other car, IMO. Besides, maybe it'll force Ford, Chevy, Pontiac, and Dodge to build better cars/race cars. :)
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| 18 | Wahoo
ID: 4526415
Wed, Jun 04, 2003, 16:32
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I'm purely American ;-}
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