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0 Subject: Oh the drama

Posted by: Sludge
- Sustainer [3065149] Wed, Aug 20, 2003, 14:01

Busch won't appeal probation


But a tape released Tuesday of his radio conversation with his crew indicated he may have purposely tried to "flatten" Spencer's fender earlier in the race.

Busch said, "See, I'm not very good at being bad. I was trying to flatten the 7 car (Spencer) fender and I got mine. I needed to be further forward on his car."

Someone on his crew responded, "They just showed that on TV. You just missed by about an inch or two. Ah, not far enough forward."

Busch replied, "Inches only count unless you're playing horseshoes and hand grenades. Ah, I don't want to play either with that clown."


Ahhh... the wonder that is the kinder and gentler NASCAR. Beat the hell out of a guy that tried to ruin your aero and, possibly, put you in a wall all while traveling at 170+ MPH and you get probation, a fine, and suspended. Try to ruin somebody's aero and, possibly, put them in a wall while traveling at 170+ MPH and you get put on probation.

Neither Spencer nor Busch are in the good on this one, but I think Spencer's only mistake was taking it out on Busch after the race instead of on the racetrack. I also think that NASCAR has a decision to make. It needs to decide if it's going to be a kinder and gentler sport in all aspects (off and on the track) or if it's going to try and stick with its rough-and-tumble image of old. I don't think they can have it both ways.
1Challenger
      ID: 135231212
      Wed, Aug 20, 2003, 15:03
Sludge, I was watching the tv coverage when Busch ran up into Spencer. Jimmy had given Kurt plenty of room to get past in the corner yet somehow Kurt managed to run clear up into Jimmy. Tv announcers had no explanation other than to say no damage was done. Now with your posting, we do.

I thought Spencer had use alot of restraint in not retaliating during the race. Then I read about the "after race happenings" Monday morning and just shook my head, boys will be boys.

Personally, If I was Jack Rousch, I'd be dipping my hands into Kurt's bank account to show him whose money he's actually spending when he gets this childish.

I did like Robby Gordon's comment about the matter....Kurt got what he deserved.

Anyone for a celebrity boxing match?? Though I think Kurt 1st should take on that figure skater.

btw, I agree....neither Spencer nor Busch is good on this one.
2KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 2752157
      Thu, Aug 21, 2003, 16:05
Why can't NASCAR have a rough-and-tumble image on the track, yet a fan-friendly image off it? I see no problem with that other than some driver's ego's getting in the way and wanting to spill on-track incidents into the pit/garage areas. NASCAR, IMO, has made it very clear that you keep your fights on the track. And, if you get way too agressive with those fights, you'll get fined/suspended (like Harvick last year). They're willing to tolerate a certain amount. I liken it to MTV's reality shows where the people can scream at each other at the top of their lungs with no penalty, but the moment they lay a hand on another person, it's over.

Spencer is the one that took the fued to fistfighting and that's just being a punk, IMO. I dislike Busch just as much as the next guy, but I really don't think anybody deserves to get punched by someone else. Keep your hands to yourself and find other ways to vent your anger. Did they learn nothing in kindergarten?

3Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 3065149
      Thu, Aug 21, 2003, 16:16
No doubt Spencer crossed the line. Especially since he was punching Busch while Busch was not in a position to defend himself.

But I don't think that NASCAR can penalize Spencer with a suspension, a fine, and probation for what he did and only give Busch probation. Busch was the one who intentionally took actions on the track that could very easily have ended up with Spencer hitting the wall at over 170 MPH. Which was more dangerous? I don't think that NASCAR can allow something like that to happen on the track and then allow the offender to cry "Sanctuary!" the minute he leaves the track. That's why I don't think you can have it both ways. The debt will be settled one way or another, and for NASCAR to say that they prefer the debt to be settled at over 150 MPH is asking for trouble, IMO.
4KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 2752157
      Fri, Aug 22, 2003, 11:27
Sludge, the problem is that you're talking hypothetical. How many times have all of us seen one driver bump another without the bumped driver crashing? Countless, I'm sure. And how can you say that NASCAR would not have suspended Busch had Spencer actually crashed from the bump?

The Busch/Spencer fued has boiled over. I think NASCAR realizes that. I think had Spencer crashed, they would have suspended Busch for a race, much like they did Harvick when he boiled over. They see trends and they stop them when they've gotten out of hand. And that's what they did with Spencer. He got out of hand and they've punished it for him. Personally, I think the punishments fit:

Spencer caused bodily harm (I read somewhere that it could take up to 3 months for all the damage to be repaired because Busch recently had surgery for a deviated septum) and was suspended for 1 race, fined, and place on probation.

Busch caused minor cosmetic damage and was placed on probation (in essense saying, "If you do it again, you're going to be suspended/fined.").

I think NASCAR would have opened a huge can of worms if they had suspended or fined Busch. At that point, they would have to look at each and every bump, we're not even talking crashes here, and determine if it was purposeful or not. And if it was, then they would have to slap a suspension/fine on the driver doing the bumping. That's when it just gets ridiculous. Every time Jeff Gordon taps Rusty Wallace (or vice versa), that's a fine and a suspension. Every time Dale Junior taps someone he got mad at on the track, that's a fine and a suspension.

Like I said before, I think this is where NASCAR can keep the exciting racing they have by allowing minor bumping incidents to occur on the track. I do think they need to suspend/fine if the bumping causes a crash and there is audio evidence, or previous altercation evidence, that the driver meant to crash the other driver. There's a limit, not unlike Craven/Busch at Darlington this year, that keeps the fans happy. Then there's beyond that limit. And that's when NASCAR needs to step in. Further, I think anything that happens off the track, including in the pit areas, where the pit crew is in danger, should be handled in a strict manner. It's like boxing. Beating the hell out of the guy in the ring is fine, but out of it is not. The drivers need to leave their business on the track, where it belongs.

5Challenger
      ID: 135231212
      Fri, Aug 22, 2003, 14:20
To translate in hockey & football terms, the retaliator always gets the harshest penalties.

Busch could very well have ended Spencer's life and Spencer merely showed him that you had better finish what you start. I don't condone what Spencer did, his penalty may not be harsh enough, IMHO, but Busch's arss needs to sit too for the admitted deliberate attempt(s).

Btw, Busch attempted at least twice to wreck out Spencer. The one I mentioned above and another nearer the end of the race where Busch tried to swiped Spencer's right side rear bumper as he passed him on the high side. Obviously he missed. This is the most common replay shown.
6KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 2752157
      Fri, Aug 22, 2003, 16:50
Challenger, "Busch could very well have ended Spencer's life". You don't really believe that, do you? These guys have more risk of getting killed on the plane/car ride home from the track. Just look at Ryan Newman's flip at Daytona and how he walked away from it. Look at Bodine/Wallace in the Michigan race and both of them walked away from it. Saying that Busch could have ended Spencer's life is just being a touch too dramatic about the whole situation.

But like I alluded to in post 4, the last thing the sport needs is NASCAR trying to determine what the intent of a bump was. Geez, if they did that, then every driver would miss 10 races every season considering all the bumping that goes on every race. Between what Busch could have done and what he actually did is a large margin. Everyone keeps talking about what he could have done or what he said he wanted to do. Big whoop. How many times have you said, "I could KILL him for that!" And did you follow through? And even if Busch missed, he still missed. He still never crashed Spencer. Determining intent is a business NASCAR needs to avoid unless there is actually a crash or major damage involved, IMHO. And as long as they don't do that (or rarely do it, as the case may be), then they certainly can't justify suspending someone for a bump. This is turning into The Bump Heard 'Round the World and it's quite laughable when you really think about it compared to weekly NASCAR racing. The only reason this bump is of any signifigance is because most fans don't like Busch (myself included). Thankfully, the opinion polls of the fans don't matter.

7Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 62562123
      Fri, Aug 22, 2003, 17:34
No, the only reason that this bump is of more significance than the many other bumps is because he was caught on the radio stating that he was trying to ruin Spencer's aero. That's going quite a bit further than the slide job or the bump 'n run that you're trying to lump in with it. In those instances, the driver is trying to gain track position (i.e. he's racin'). In this instance, Busch was caught admitting that it wasn't just racin', and that it was a whole lot more.

Of course it goes on all the time. NASCAR can't punish every driver every time they bump someone else to try and put an end to vendettas, but they can and should punish a driver appropriately when they can prove that the bump was the result of some vendetta and it wasn't just racin'.
8KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 513102216
      Fri, Aug 22, 2003, 23:31
Sludge, they say it EVERY weekend. I have the in-car audio going every race and I can't count how many times a driver says they're "going to get" another driver. Sometimes they bump them, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they crash them, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they're just venting. The point is, it happens every week. And I'm sure it happens far more than I hear because I can't listen to every channel at the same time.

The problem is that there's some media folks who want to make this a much bigger story than it is. "Oh, Kurt Busch said on the radio he wanted to damage Spencer's car. Oh no! We can't have that! We have to write a story!" So what? Who cares what Busch said? Why not base things on what he did? I can't believe I'm actually defending Busch, but I think some people are out for him just a tad too much. The guy did nothing, I repeat nothing, more than countless other drivers on countless other weekends. The only difference is that people don't like Busch, so they want to see punishment for him. Yeah, that's the way to run a fair sport. Start punishing people based on fan opinion.

BTW, how was Busch supposed to pull off this aero damage to the rear of Spencer's car (where the spoiler is the only real important part) without damaging his own frontend aero, which is arguably the most important at a high speed track like MIS? Ever heard of someone being "all talk and no action?" If not, you may have just seen your first case of it. Busch did nothing more than a bump-and-run. Whatever he talked about over the radio was just that: talk.

9Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 62562123
      Fri, Aug 22, 2003, 23:42
BTW, how was Busch supposed to pull off this aero damage to the rear of Spencer's car (where the spoiler is the only real important part) without damaging his own frontend aero, which is arguably the most important at a high speed track like MIS?

For the record, I kinda liked Busch. Whatever his attitude, he's a damn good race car driver.

Did you not read what Busch said over the radio?

Busch said, "See, I'm not very good at being bad. I was trying to flatten the 7 car (Spencer) fender and I got mine. I needed to be further forward on his car."

So, what someone says shouldn't be taken into account in light of their actions? Rubbish. NASCAR does it all the time and you know it. If a driver says, "I'm gonna put that motherf***er in the wall," and then he turns around and does it, he generally gets a much more severe punishment (whether it be a black flag for rough driving, a visit to the whatever-color-it-is truck after the race, probation, whatever) for it than if he had said nothing and did the same thing (which is generally no punishment at all).
10Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 62562123
      Sat, Aug 23, 2003, 01:03
Just got finished watching Trackside on Speed. Found it interesting when Tony Stewart said (and this is as close to a quote as I'm going to be able to get), "I don't know what our series is coming to. There ought to be fist fights more often so that people don't start using 3400 pound cars to settle scores." Granted, this is Stewart saying this, but he makes the exact same point I'm trying to make. NASCAR has basically mandated that if you want to settle a score, do it on the racetrack.

Terry Labonte suggested that someone needs to sit Kurt Busch down and have a talk with him among other comments he made about his on-track antics.

Something else you said, KKB, just now struck me...

You don't really believe that, do you? These guys have more risk of getting killed on the plane/car ride home from the track. Just look at Ryan Newman's flip at Daytona and how he walked away from it. Look at Bodine/Wallace in the Michigan race and both of them walked away from it. Saying that Busch could have ended Spencer's life is just being a touch too dramatic about the whole situation.

At the risk of being a bit overdramatic, tell that to the Earnhardt family and tell that to Jerry Nadeau. No matter the amount of safety devices you install in a car, there is always a significant amount of risk when you hit the wall at high speed, and your cavalier dismissal of this risk stuns me, quite frankly.
11KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 513102216
      Sat, Aug 23, 2003, 11:08
Sludge, your punishments in #9 are far from fines/suspensions. I agree with the punishment of a black flag or a visit to the trailer to calm a driver down and that's exactly what Busch got. Remember, he IS on probation. So how is this any different from how the situation is normally handled? It's not.

As for Tony Stewart's comments, it's kind of hard to listen to a guy who was mandated by NASCAR to take anger management classes talk about anger management. But he is right in that NASCAR is telling the drivers to settle the score on the track. However, and this is a big however, NASCAR is also telling them to not get out of hand with the score settling. Again, remember Harvick? And I think this is fine. They let the drivers deal with it themselves (Think: fighting in hockey) and then they step in when it goes over the line (Think: McSorley in hockey). It happens in most major sports. Even baseball allows it to a certain extent (at least they did until they decided to baby the hitters).

You seem to think that NASCAR either has to be the "No Touch Series" or "WWE on Wheels" and I think there's a middle ground there that can exist to keep the fans excited, but not make them think the series is the equivalent of a Saturday night demolition derby with boxing matches in the garage area afterwards or make them think the series is just a bunch of guys driving in circles and being Ms. Manners to each other.

As for the safety of drivers, I'm not being cavalier any more than those bringing up the potential for Jimmy Spencer's death are being melodramatic. There is obviously a middle ground (somehow, this middle ground concept seems to be getting lost across many topics here) where yes, Jimmy Spencer's life was in danger, but no, it was not really in any more danger than it normally is. These drivers race at high speeds week in and week out. That alone is dangerous and life-threatening.

The point of all this is that we can speculate forever, but it's just speculation. The fact is that a) Jimmy Spencer did not crash and b) Jimmy Spencer is alive and well and c) Kurt Busch, despite what his intentions may have been did not do any significant damage to Spencer's car. And you guy's think he deserves more than probation for this? Geez, I hope you're never on my jury if I get arrested for saying, "I want to punch that guy SO bad" and then don't do anything about it.

Lastly, yes, you're being overdramatic with regards to Earnhardt and Nadeau. First, Earnhardt died in an accident (nothing intentional) as a result of a number of freak circumstances, a lot of which might have been avoided with the current closed-helmet and head/neck restraints setups in place. In other words, comparing a current day situation to a situation at the start of 2001 is night and day.

With regards to Nadeau, last I heard he was alive and doing quite well after a lengthy hospital stay. Also, the last I heard, his accident was a single-car accident that happened during practice. I'm not sure what relevance this has on the Spencer/Busch incident. Or are we just going to bring up every accident that ever injured a NASCAR driver in every form of racing?

Again, We all know NASCAR driving is dangerous, but we all also know that the risk of death is not nearly high enough to start throwing the argument around with regards to Busch's minor bump of Spencer (especially since I saw many drivers get more loose than Spencer all by themselves during that race). Again, there's a middle ground that seems to be getting lost.

12Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 62562123
      Sat, Aug 23, 2003, 11:24
The relevance of Earnhardt and Nadeau is that it shows that hitting the wall at high rates of speed is still very dangerous.

As to Nadeau, have you seen any interviews with him lately? Have you noticed that he doesn't move his right arm? There's a reason for that. He can't. Or, at least, he has very little movement left in it.

Sure there's a middle ground that can be reached here, and it's very simple:

Punish someone for on-the-track antics the same as you would for off-the-track antics.
13Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 62562123
      Sat, Aug 23, 2003, 12:14
And, for the record, I don't believe I ever made Busch's bumping of Spencer as him trying to kill him. I'm merely maintaining that it's at least equivalent to the punch(es) that Spencer gave Busch. (Even though Spencer was quite the chicken by not allowing Busch to defend himself.)
14KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 513102216
      Sat, Aug 23, 2003, 16:25
Sludge, I understand NASCAR is dangerous. I said as much. But again, you seem to be missing the middle ground. You seem to be stating that every driver that crashes is going to get severely injured or die. We all know that's not the case. As I pointed out, Newman, K. Wallace, and T. Bodine all walked away from their huge crashes. Again, middle ground.

As for the bumping and punishment, the fact remains that the results of Busch's and Spencer's actions were far from similar. Thankfully, NASCAR saw this and didn't paint both drivers with the same brush, as you seem intent on doing. You seem intent on ignoring the middle ground where Spencer gets suspended for his actions and their results and Busch gets put on probation for his comments and lack of results.

Just curious, what would your solution to this incident be if you had to make the decision?

15Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 24914721
      Sat, Aug 23, 2003, 16:29
My solution? Probation for both of them. If you want to give Spencer a fine for the express reason that he was a chickensh** for not allowing Busch to defend himself, I wouldn't have a problem with that either.

I don't personally like the kinder-and-gentler image that NASCAR is trying to foster to increase its appeal with sponsers. But, NASCAR has always been sponser driven, and if that's what the sponsers want, that's what the sponsers get.
16KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 513102216
      Sat, Aug 23, 2003, 16:53
So you don't think there should be any punishment for punching a guy in the face other than probation? Even though it is something he could be charged with a crime for? I guess that's why we disagree.

Personally, I just don't see how punching a guy in the face and causing damage that will take months to fully recover from is the same as bumping another car on the track with nothing but cosmetic damage to the bumped car. Sure Busch said he wanted to do more, but the fact is that he didn't and I can't see punishing someone beyond probation for something they didn't do, regardless of if they attempted to or not. And punching someone in the face surely deserves more than a stern warning. But that's just me.

Maybe I'm just not man enough for the rough-and-tough NASCAR.

17Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 24914721
      Sat, Aug 23, 2003, 17:20
What Busch did wasn't a high stick in a hockey game. It wasn't a fastball high and tight. It wasn't a late hit on a QB. He intentionally initiated contact between two 1 1/2 ton cars travelling at over 170 miles per hour not for the purpose of racing for the position, but to try to ruin Spencer's day. The intent makes a world of difference.

An accidental high stick gets you 2 minutes, while an intentional one will get you a 5 minute major at least. Accidental high and tight fastball rings up another ball in the pitch count, but if the Ump perceives that it was intentional, he'll either issue a warning or throw you out of the game. Hit the QB late, 15 yard penalty. If the ref believes you hit the QB late because you were head hunting, you're likely to find your ass in the showers.

Intent does matter, and it should matter, and the outcome of the act should not be the end-all be-all when it comes time to dole out punishment, nor has it traditionally been. That's why we have many crimes with the first word "attempted".

I believe that Busch and Spencer should be punished equally because I see their infractions as being more or less equal. Like I said before, by issuing these differing penalties, NASCAR has just told all of their drivers that if you want to settle the score, do it on the racetrack, not off of it. Sure drivers have always done it on the track as well as off the track, but NASCAR has just taken away the less dangerous of the two avenues of evening things up.

My gut feeling tells me, however, that the next time somebody puts another driver in the wall intentionally, that driver will face penalties for which there is no precedent and will basically tell drivers that they need to find some other way to sort out their differences. When that happens, this whole discussion becomes moot.
18KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 513102216
      Sat, Aug 23, 2003, 18:17
Okay, so punish Busch...

Unintentional bump: No penalty (like normal)

Intentional bump: Probation

"Like I said before, by issuing these differing penalties, NASCAR has just told all of their drivers that if you want to settle the score, do it on the racetrack, not off of it. Sure drivers have always done it on the track as well as off the track, but NASCAR has just taken away the less dangerous of the two avenues of evening things up." To an extent, I see this, but also realize that Spencer didn't just confront Busch or bump his car in the garage area. He punched what was essentially a defenseless driver. Surely this is a bit beyond NASCAR saying, "settle it on the track." To me, they're saying they won't put up with what amounts to a criminal act.

Further, I see the whole response as NASCAR saying if you intentionally bump someone, you can expect probation. If you intentionally crash someone, especially if there is a history of agressive driving and/or a boiling fued, you can expect suspension, like Harvick. What happens if Busch intentionally bumps another driver with no end result? Personally, I think he should be suspended for a race for agressive driving. Warn a driver once for agressive driving, then sit him. THAT, I can agree with.

I also agree that NASCAR will likely come down hard on the next intentional crash, and I have no problem with that whatsoever. To me, there is a world of difference between a bump and a crash, even though there is a very fine line between which one is the end result. And I think anything more than probation for an intentional bump that has absolutely no end result beyond minor cosmetic damage is excessive, IMHO, unless the driver is already on probation.

19Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 24914721
      Sat, Aug 23, 2003, 19:09
Looks like Wally agrees with you, KKB.
20KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 513102216
      Sat, Aug 23, 2003, 19:49
Sludge, I couldn't help but smile when he said that. :)
21Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 24914721
      Sat, Aug 23, 2003, 19:57
Yeah, but I liked it better when the drivers I've seen have agreed with my position. They still drive. :)
22Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 24914721
      Sat, Aug 23, 2003, 23:29
Heh... I wonder which side Harvick would be on. :)
23Wahoo
      ID: 28558622
      Tue, Aug 26, 2003, 11:57
Who is the subject of these comments?
"Because he's a cocky, arrogant punk."
"Great race car driver, he just has a really, really bad attitude. Sometimes he just spins people out, runs into them and drives like an idiot, but he can wheel a race car, there's no doubt about it."

Kurt Busch of course, but Harvick could have just as easily been descibing himself.



24Wahoo
      ID: 21991117
      Sun, Sep 07, 2003, 10:55
And Harvick proves my point.
25Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 26073119
      Sun, Sep 07, 2003, 11:00
What point is that? That Harvick is a punk? That ain't a point that's hard to prove.
26KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 2752157
      Mon, Sep 08, 2003, 09:57
So, who thinks Harvick should be suspended for his actions Saturday night? Count me as one. Actually, count me as one to suspend the driver and entire crew for a race. Why?

1. He has a history in this department. A history that NASCAR needs to show it's not going to put up with. They need to set an example before they become the NWF (NASCAR Wrestling Federation). It's obvious his crew, crew chief, and owner can't get through to him, so maybe sitting him out will straighten him out for another year like it did last time.

2. Harvick had no business even being on pit road. This shows that he's out of control, literally. He made a purposeful move to go down pit road instead of to the garage like everyone else. Again, his crew, crew chief, and owner can't control him. They said, "Don't do anything stupid," on the radio and that was it. Sorry, but I think they, particularly Richard Childress, could have said/done more.

3. Damaging a car to the extent that he and his crew members did AFTER the race is uncalled for, particularly the part where his jackman jumped on the hood while he was "getting down." That alone is enough for a suspension, IMHO.

27Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 3065149
      Mon, Sep 08, 2003, 10:10
For I think the first time ever, I agree with you KKB. I'd have no problems with them sitting Harvick for a race for his actions.

Of course, I still maintain that if Harvick deserves a suspension, then so did Busch for the very same reasons. You made sure to note that they jumped up and down on Rudd's car "AFTER the race", but I would maintain that doing damage to a car even during the race, so long as it falls outside of what can be considered "we was jus' racin'", is pretty much the same thing.

What I'm really interested in is not in what happens to Harvick and his crew, but what happens to Rudd and his crew. Regardless of whether it was intentional or not, Rudd's bump on Harvick does fall within what can be considered "we was jus' racin'".
28KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 2752157
      Mon, Sep 08, 2003, 11:25
Sludge, can it be that we're going to agree on TWO points in ONE day?!?!

I agree that I'm far more interested in what happens to Rudd and his crew. I think Rudd was "just racin'" and had absolutely no intentions of crashing him. It was much like Burton/R.Gordon (BTW, what is it with RCR and hot-head drivers lately?) where Burton said it was his fault and just one of those things. Rudd said Harvick got into the brakes early and he tried to check up, but couldn't in time. From a veteran like Rudd, I have no doubt that's exactly what happened.

The only thing I could potentially see for Rudd and his crew are fines for the post-race incident AFTER Harvick and his crew damaged Rudd's car. I know they probably got into the "we're going to protect our car and driver" mode, and rightfully so, but that might be the only potential set of actions that NASCAR could fine them for. And even that I would have a hard time understanding.

BTW, as for Busch, he still hasn't damaged Spencer's car. Despite his intentions, he still never did any damage. Had he actually done damage, I'm sure my opinion about disciplinary actions would be different. My whole point of contention the entire time is that Busch still never did any damage. Sure intent is one thing, but it's not like we're talking murder here. Busch got probation for intent. He likely would have got a suspension for damage. And I would have no problem with that. Probation for first intent. Suspension for second intent. Suspension for first intent with first damage, IMO.

29rugg
      ID: 341422511
      Mon, Sep 08, 2003, 14:35
Great thread so far, guys. Lots of good points. I've gotta say I back KKB in the majority of the comments. But I think there's a wider discussion that's being missed because of the attention to the Busch/Spencer fued. It's the fact that bumps like Busch did to Spencer happen every single week. They all do it and it's part of racing, whether you're doing 100 or 170. The thing is, we miss most of these bumps because there simply aren't enough cameras at the tracks. Most of you have been to races and when you're there, you see a hell of a lot more than on TV. There's banging and bumping going on all over the track.

The distinction you're making is Busch was stupid enough to actually say that he was trying to mess with Spencer's aero package. So what? You don't think that Rusty and Earnhardt tried untold times to do the same thing to each other? Of course they did, and lots of guys do it. That's part of racing. Sometimes a little bump can make a big difference even if you don't cause much damage or cause a wreck. What's next, Sludge? Are we gonna suspend a driver because he gets right up on the tail of the guy in front of him on a fast track with the sole purpose of taking the air off his back side? We all know that will cause the guy to lose traction and many times we've all seen cars wreck because their down-force was stolen like this. No bump, but your actual intention is to cause your fellow racer to lose traction that you know damn well COULD cause him to wreck.

I've seen drivers check up on purpose at a start to throw off the guys behind him. Suspension?

Get over the idea that a driver's actions could cause a crash. Happens all the time and has been going on for many many years. I personally don't like Busch or Spencer, although I do think that Busch is a better driver, and maybe Spencer knows it too and doesn't like it. I've seen them both do cheap things on the track and not just to each other.

The bottom line is the only thing I think was wrong with that whole situation was that Spencer didn't wait until Busch got out of the car. Busch was literally defenseless. Give the guy a chance to swing back. That's all you gotta do.

30Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 3065149
      Mon, Sep 08, 2003, 15:18
I think if you read my comments more closely, rugg, you'll find them more in agreement with what you said than you think.

The distinction you're making is Busch was stupid enough to actually say that he was trying to mess with Spencer's aero package. So what? You don't think that Rusty and Earnhardt tried untold times to do the same thing to each other?

So what? So the next time somebody admits to a crime they should get off? "Well, Your Honor, I figure I deserve to be set free because armed robbery goes on all the time and all the others got away with it." Busch deserves punishment for his actions for at least being so stupid as to broadcast his intentions if for nothing else.

To say that it happens all the time is true. Unfortunately, that is a poor defense for Busch.

What's next, Sludge? Are we gonna suspend a driver because he gets right up on the tail of the guy in front of him on a fast track with the sole purpose of taking the air off his back side?

Hate to say this, but that is a complete and total mischaracterization of my stance. So, let me repeat...

No, we aren't going to susped a driver who does that so long as he was racin'. Even if NASCAR suspects that it was intentional, there's not much they can do because they can't prove that it wasn't just racin'. In cases where they have good reason to believe that they did it on purpose (a la Busch), then a punishment is justified.

But talking about where the burden of proof lies is another issue. The whole point of bringing up that Busch intentionally bumped Spencer at 170+ MPH was not to argue that Busch tried to kill Spencer. It was to argue that such a bump is at least equivalent to a punch, as chickensh!t as Spencer's punch was.

The whole thing that worries me isn't that there's *gasp* intentional bumping that goes on in NASCAR. There are two ways that someone can settle a score: On the track or off it. In the past, scores were settled in both arenas. With the precedent that NASCAR has set by giving Spencer a much more sever punishment, one of two things will happen. Settling scores on the track will become even more common because Spencer's punishment was as much a message to the rest of the drivers as it was to Spencer himself to keep your grubby fists to yourself. The second possibility is that NASCAR won't allow scores to be settled at all leading to the kinder gentler NASCAR that, judging by your comments, you certainly don't want.
31KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 2752157
      Mon, Sep 08, 2003, 16:50
Sludge, No, we aren't going to susped a driver who does that so long as he was racin'. Even if NASCAR suspects that it was intentional, there's not much they can do because they can't prove that it wasn't just racin'. In cases where they have good reason to believe that they did it on purpose (a la Busch), then a punishment is justified.

Huh? So just because he admitted what we ALL know goes through many drivers minds every weekend, he should be punished? I just can't buy that. To use your own example, you're saying, "Well, Your Honor, I figure I deserve to be set free because I never actually admitted to armed robbery and if I didn't admit to it, then you can't prove it." NASCAR can prove a lot if they want to. The problem is that proving intentional bumping is harder than proving a fist to the face. So, they let ALL the beatin' and bangin' go on (with an occassional probation when someone starts to get out of hand, like Busch) to prevent having to make a gray area black-and-white and deal with the fists to the face, where there is no gray area.

32Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 3065149
      Mon, Sep 08, 2003, 17:12
On the track or off the track, KKB, it's all shenanigans. NASCAR used to treat all the shenanigans the same wherever they happened. Now, it seems, they won't.

Really, when it comes down to it, that's all my whole thesis is. All this black-and-white/gray area is superfluous. There isn't much gray area here because Busch hung himself.

And your example is another mischaracterization of my position. I never said that NASCAR should only punish those who admit that they've done something that goes beyond the pale. To quote myself...

NASCAR can't punish every driver every time they bump someone else to try and put an end to vendettas, but they can and should punish a driver appropriately when they can prove that the bump was the result of some vendetta and it wasn't just racin'.
33KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 517553018
      Mon, Sep 08, 2003, 17:59
Sludge, welcome to the new NASCAR where "just racin'" is accepted (even with vendettas, which have always been part of "just racin'") and fists to the face are not. The new NASCAR where drivers who get out of hand on the track are given probation the first time and a suspension the second time and drivers who want to assault others off the track are suspended the first time.

What's so wrong with that? Do you really think that a fender bender is the equivalent of assault? Even at the high speeds the drivers are going, it's still just a fender bender a large majority of the time. And when it's not, NASCAR appropriately steps in. I see no problem with that.

34Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 5781086
      Tue, Sep 09, 2003, 07:00
This really is the kinder gentler NASCAR where even what you say will get you in trouble.

Harvick, six others fined for post-race incident

Among the highlights:

Harvick, driver of the No. 29 Chevrolet, was fined $35,000 and placed on probation until Dec. 31 for his role in the post-race incident. He was in violation of Section 12-4-A (Actions detrimental to stock car racing: Hitting another competitor's car on pit road after the completion of the race, use of improper language) of the NASCAR Winston Cup Series Rule Book. (Emphasis added.)

Three others were fined for (among other things) "use of improper language", and one was fined for "improper use of language" (I guess his grammar wasn't up to par?).
35Punk42AE
      ID: 1385748
      Tue, Sep 09, 2003, 10:11
I heard about Harvick last night, what exactly happened after the race?
36Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 3065149
      Tue, Sep 09, 2003, 10:24
Harvick/Rudd incident highlights wild night
37Punk42AE
      ID: 1385748
      Tue, Sep 09, 2003, 10:26
Thanks Sludge.
38rugg
      ID: 341422511
      Tue, Sep 09, 2003, 12:12
Let's keep in mind that hot-head Harvick wasn't a first offender for this type of conduct. The kid's a good driver but he has no sense of timing. Serves him right for that stupid stunt. What an idiot! "Let me see, how can I make the biggest secene possible and draw all the attention to my tirade? Oh, I know, I'll hop up on the car like an eight-year-old and yell at Rudd."

I've read so many statements from more experienced drivers about handling things back in the garage or between the trailers. Let's face it, that's how a lot of problems used to be addressed. Do these guys really think they'll get justice by spinning someone on pit road or jumping a driver after the race in full view of everyone? I don't feel bad one bit for them. They are doing things that really are detrimental to the sport.

People say "Look at those yahoos fighting after the race. That sport is for rednecks." Even if they get in trouble for a behind-the-scenes scuffle, it stays behind the scenes. They simply have to be smarter and if their crew chiefs or owners can't control them then they should be fined, too.
39Challenger
      ID: 135231212
      Tue, Sep 09, 2003, 13:07
NASCAR’s road rage may soon turn deadly

THEREIN LIES THE QUANDARY for NASCAR: To crank up the roars without letting things get too crazy.

It’s too crazy when Ricky Rudd sends Kevin Harvick’s car slamming into the wall at Richmond, Va., and Harvick’s crew stomps on Rudd’s car “like it’s a dadgum runway,” as Rudd described the bizarre scene Saturday night.

It’s too crazy when Jimmy Spencer punches out Kurt Busch after a race, as he did a few weeks ago.

It’s too crazy when drivers of all stripes, in cars and trucks, are playing dangerous games night after night, not quite cheating but not quite racing clean.

A driver is going to get killed one day, on or off the track, if the latest epidemic of road rage doesn’t stop. Fans don’t want to see wimps cruising the speedways, but the sport doesn’t need drivers attacking each other with their cars or their fists.


As I said earlier that Busch should have been suspended for his actions, Harvick should be on the sidewalk for at least one race also.

I saw on "Inside Wintson Cup" last night where one Harvick crewman tried to turn Rudd's hood into his own personal trampoline. This guy appears the size of a 250 lb linebacker. Looking at the suspension and fines handle down by NASCAR, it is my guess that he only rec'd a fine & a 1 race suspension. Much too light!! Considering the fact that Rudd's crew chief rec'd a fine for his language not free of cussing.

The only member of Rudd’s team to get penalized was crew chief Pat Tryson — $5,000 for cussing. Tryson apparently said something stronger than, “Gosh, guys, would you please stop jumping on our car.”

Guess NASCAR could do to them what I do to my 2 daughters when their fighting......Hug and kiss until I'm satisfied they know & understand they are being punished. LOL about the thought of Busch & Spencer..........

40KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 517553018
      Tue, Sep 09, 2003, 13:40
If you look back over this long discussion, it's interesting to see the points of agreement and disagreement. Why? Because I think it's the same points NASCAR themselves are trying to figure out. For the thread as a whole, general consensus is:

Kurt Busch: No consensus

Jimmy Spencer: Should have been suspended

Kevin Harvick: Should have been suspended

Ricky Rudd: No punishment

The reason I find this interesting is that Busch and Rudd got into trouble on the track while Spencer and Harvick got into trouble off the track. It seems, despite what we all may be saying, that the general consensus is to leave the fighting on the track.

Now I realize this is generalizing a lot of stuff that goes much deeper than generalizations, but it is interesting to look at and think about. It's something that I think a lot of fans would probably agree with as well. I think NASCAR is trying to keep everything on the track as much as possible. They want the excitement of the "good old days" without the off-track fighting. Whether or not they can have both remains to be seen, but it looks like it could be their "master plan."

41KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 517553018
      Tue, Sep 09, 2003, 13:42
BTW, Challenger, I think, though am not certain, that the Rudd crew chief fine was a result of cussing caught on television. I know somebody did some cussing that night that came across the TV speakers. NASCAR seems to be a bit sensitive about that.
42Challenger
      ID: 135231212
      Tue, Sep 09, 2003, 14:54
How about bringing in a mandatory "NASCAR One-on-One Demolition Derby" for anyone wishing to go beyond discussing their ontrack altercation(s)?

You can only run with what you enter to race in on Sunday! Course I guess if your main race car is not running, you'll have to switch to the backup car to compete in the Deby.



43KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 517553018
      Tue, Sep 09, 2003, 16:36
Challenger, LOL! I would actually pay more to see that than I would a regular race!
44Wahoo
      ID: 21991117
      Tue, Sep 09, 2003, 21:52
KBB I like your summary in 40. I think the article Challenger refers to is a little overblown. More likely someone is going to get killed in the pits after a race.
Here's a nice summary by BP Except I think Harvick should have been penalized a few points so he gets the message. The 'pocket change' they fined him means nothing.
I watched DW on Wind Tunnel, he was pretty pumped about all the banging that goes on and thinks it should be penalized. Determining fault is too subjective in most cases. Kenny Wallace had a much more realistic view on Inside Winston Cup. He had no problem with the bump and run like happened between Rusty and Jeff Gordon at Richmond but he thought someone coming from a car length behind and punting the driver in front is out of control.
Bumping and banging has been part of NASCAR forever. The drivers will take care of that themselves on the track. If not, NASCAR will.
Confrontations between drivers and crews have been a part of NASCAR forever too. The difference today is it nationally televised and sponsors don’t want that kind of image associated with their product. I think it was DW that said fights have gone on forever but it wasn’t in the spotlight, it was between the haulers or in the garage. The trouble is if the camera’s, radios or tape recorders can catch it, it’s going to be broadcast. I much rather hear rumors or read about it a day later.
Isn’t it ironic that Friday Harvick says how proud he is of his teammate for bumping Kenseth out of the way and Saturday it happens to him.
BTW, anyone think Harvick’s sponsor is going to penalize/reprimand him the way Home Depot and Rubbermaid did their drivers? My guess, no.

45Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 3065149
      Wed, Sep 10, 2003, 10:03
USAToday's now getting in on the action.

NASCAR walks tightrope on clashes

Here's a drastic solution:

Initiate a wreck, go to the back of the field. I think I've heard that it's a rule on some circuits. Please, hear me clearly here, I am not advocating this as a rule that can be implemented as I've written it. I'm just throwing it out there. It's got some problems with it, the largest of which is that it would penalize drivers who got into someone through no fault of their own (i.e. somebody checked up in front of them). Of course, it would make drivers less willing to apply the bumper to someone, and if they do, they'd likely tread a whole lot lighter. And some might argue that if a driver can't avoid causing a wreck he might belong in the back anyway. While it wouldn't take away all the anger, a driver would have less justification for going after somebody following a race when they've already gotten their punishment.

Personally, I don't think it would work. They've already got the rule (rough drivin'), so this would be a souped up version of that. The reason I like NASCAR over open wheel is that contact can happen and the drivers can still go on racing. In open wheel it seems that sometimes a minor touch will send a car into the air throwing off parts left and right.
46Wahoo
      ID: 28558622
      Wed, Sep 10, 2003, 11:46
I know there's a rule at a couple of our local tracks that if you bring out the yellow, you go to the back of the field. No questions asked.
It seems to work fairly well. There's no determination of intent which take the subjectiveness out of it.
The bumping and banging still goes on but it's not rough enough to cause accidents. If it is you get flagged for rough driving. Of course there's an occasional call that goes the wrong way but overall I think it works.
47KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 2752157
      Wed, Sep 10, 2003, 14:08
The more I think about it, the more I think you would NOT find drivers checking up to send a car behind them to the back of the field (or to receive whatever punishment NASCAR had set up). Realistically, who's going to have more liklihood of crashing? The car in front. So why would they risk crashing just to get another car punished? About the only time a rule like that wouldn't work is in the case of Jeff Burton/Robby Gordon where Burton just got loose and hit Robby. But in those cases, you treat them just the same, much like the yellow line at Daytona, unless there are obvious circumstances like a flat tire or such.
48Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 3065149
      Wed, Sep 10, 2003, 14:15
No, I didn't mean to imply that the car in front would check up on purpose to try and get hit from behind. I mean somebody's spinning tires in front, getting loose, you name it and you check up to try and avoid it. Guy behind you needs to check up, guy behind him needs to check up, etc. The "accordian effect" as they often describe it on the tube is an apt description.
49KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 517553018
      Wed, Sep 10, 2003, 19:17
Sludge, I think NASCAR could implement something like what Wahoo pointed out if they implement it like the Daytona "yellow line" rule.

What I would like to see is, if a driver crashes the car in front of him as a result of physical contact between the cars then the bumping driver gets black flagged for a lap. Just like the "yellow line" rule, if the driver in back had no choice (like spinning tires, the car in front getting loose, he was sabotaged, etc.) then NASCAR would just ignore the incident.

I've thought about this a bit and actually think it could work. Here's why:

1. You keep the bumpin' and bangin' that we all know the fans love. You couldn't even have a race at Bristol or RIR if the rule did not allow contact of some sort. Plus, stuff like Kurt Busch becomes a non-issue, like I think it should. Only the times where there is an actual crash does the rule go into effect.

2. You keep aero-loose as part of racing. I think this is just like bumpin' and bangin' and needs to stay. I have no problem if a driver takes another driver's air and gets him loose. That's just physics and there really would be no way to regulate it anyhow.

3. You're telling the driver in back to watch himself. He can go bump and bang if he likes, but he better hope the driver in front doesn't crash. Kurt Busch probably wouldn't have tried to hit Spencer if this rule were in effect. I doubt he would want to risk a good run.

4. You prevent the driver in front from sabotaging the driver in back. Why? Because the driver in front would have to crash in order to get the driver in back black flagged. Who would want to do that?

Also, I think they should exempt any car that is 10 laps or more down from the leader. Those guys need to get out of the way anyhow, so if they are in the way, it's their own fault.

50revvingparson
      ID: 59856912
      Fri, Sep 12, 2003, 12:49
An interesting comment from Harvick's interview at New Hampshire

WILL YOU TALK WITH RICKY THIS WEEK?

"A lot of the blame was put on me for starting an incident. The incident started on the race track. I haven't heard from Ricky Rudd, and I know the veteran approach to it is to always call on Monday morning. If it wasn't on purpose, I didn't hear the phone ring."
51Wahoo
      ID: 28558622
      Fri, Sep 12, 2003, 12:58
Hey Hothead! A veteran approach would be to get over it!
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