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0 Subject: "Lucky Dog" Rule

Posted by: Revvingparson
- Sustainer [59856912] Mon, Sep 22, 2003, 22:36

Pit road rule-great

No racing back to the caution great.

Lap back???Please fix the fix.

I would say rather than putting the "lucky dog" at the end of the lead lap, put him either first car on the inside or put him on the tail end of the lead lap in front of the leader. He must assume this position after 1 pit stop, if he pits a second time he falls back in line as a lapped car. I believe that Newman may not have won on sunday had he been put in one of these two spots, because he would have 1) possibly had to stop for fuel again like everybody else and thus lost any advantage, 2) He would have had to race back to the lead lap with everybody at race speed.

1KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 517553018
      Tue, Sep 23, 2003, 00:23
So what about the original last guy on the lead lap? Should he not get to pit as well?

This is just part of racing. Guys up front feel like they just can't give up that track position to stop and top off with fuel, but the smart racers are doing the math and realizing that NASCAR is becoming more about fuel mileage than it is about track position. If Ryan Newman was the last guy on the lead lap already, you and everybody else wouldn't have had a problem with him topping off. So what's the difference now? Every week, we see guys towards the back of the lead lap making more pit stops than the guys in front. I see no difference in this instance.

It's not a loophole, IMHO. It's just the stubborn racers in front not willing to give up a few spots to make it on fuel. They're so focused on the now that they're not paying attention to the later. Look at Junior when he only took 2 tires. He was so concerned about track position at that time that it cost him tons of spots to guys who got 4 tires. As a driver who won a race by taking 4 tires when everyone else took 2 (Daytona 2001), he should have known he was putting himself in a bad situation. Instead, he focused on the now and lost out on the later.

It's the driver's fault, not NASCAR's, that Newman won. Every other driver could have gotten the same amount of fuel at the same time that Newman did and at that point it would have been who had the better car. And in the end, that was Newman anyhow. Maybe if Newman had a horrible car I would say he found a loophole. As it was, Newman was his dominating self and the best driver won the race. Hard to complain about that, IMHO.

2Challenger
      ID: 135231212
      Tue, Sep 23, 2003, 02:10
The fun thing about following Newman around was he was chasing the 1st car a lap down while the leader, ?Harvick?, was trying to pass more cars to further the distance between him and what was the fastest car on the track but a lap down so Newman wouldn't be the "Lucky Dog".

Best thing out of this rule change is it's much safer and no driver was interviewed that didn't like the rule.
3Revvingparson
      Sustainer
      ID: 59856912
      Tue, Sep 23, 2003, 07:13
I do not have a problem with the yellow coming out and "freezing" the field. But I do have a problem with giving a lap back to soemone who wasn't even close to getting it back at the point it was given back to him. Newman was what 1/2 lap or more back of the leader, under the old rules Newman would have been still a lap down.

Under the old rules I doubt that anyone besides Rusty would have given Newman his lap back because they knew he had a good car.

And to say that no driver was negative about the rule is true about freezing the field, but not the Lucky Dog (Some question new rule) even Newman himself is not so sure, about the "lucky Dog" part of the new rule.

Another aspect of this rule is that I believe it was Martin who had early trouble as well, but because of the new rule was unable to gain his two laps back. But at the end of the race he was keeping up with the leaders. Why not when the caution comes out give everyone who is the "leader" of that particular lap down a lap back?
4KrazyKoalaBears
      Donor
      ID: 2752157
      Tue, Sep 23, 2003, 08:48
Newman was what 1/2 lap or more back of the leader, under the old rules Newman would have been still a lap down. Under the old rules I doubt that anyone besides Rusty would have given Newman his lap back because they knew he had a good car.

So what's fair about that? That's just as unfair, if not more unfair, than the "lucky dog" rule. The old way made it up to the whim of the leader, so sometimes the best car in the field made it back to the lead lap after an unfortunate cut tire and sometimes they didn't. I think the fans, and NASCAR, would much prefer to see the best car in the field on the lead lap.

As for the link you posted, I don't see where anybody is actually questioning the rule. I see some whining (I'll get to that later), but overall no real questioning of the rule. Newman made it very clear that he was only questioning it for when a car was well off the pace. "If there's 42 cars on the lead lap and one car's way off the pace and gets his lap back, then he got a free lap for basically nothing... Our situation, we were working our way forward and finally were the first car that was one lap down. You could call it earning your lap back of sorts."

I agree. Newman didn't just get a handout. He, and his crew, were working their butts off to get him back into contention. In the old way of racing, he likely would have been running far faster than anybody else and still trapped a lap down. I see this as far more unfair than the "lucky dog" rule.

Even Jeremy Mayfield was alright with it. "He would've made it back up anyway," Mayfield said. "If it had been the normal deal, he would have made his lap back up." Well, as long as the leader at the time let him make it back up. Again, how fair is that?

Most everybody in the NASCAR story is questioning it for a situation where there is a car that clearly deserves to be a lap down. Unfortunatly, I don't think you can have one situation without the other. And to give the lap back to a car that deserves it is far better overall than leaving the decision up to the leader.

As for the whining, Tony Eury, Sr. and Matt Kenseth say they don't like the rule, but as Kenseth also said, "Some day I'm going to want a free lap back and I'm going to think it's cool, but I still don't know if that's the best policy." These guys always complain about something one week and then are happy as a pig in mud the next week when the very thing they complained about works out for them. It's just like lining up according to points. If you're 25th and points and have a great car, you hate it. If you're top 5 in points and have a crappy car, you love it. It's human nature.

Lastly, "Why not when the caution comes out give everyone who is the "leader" of that particular lap down a lap back?" Actually, I think this is a great idea. It would help to move those cars multiple laps down closer to getting back on the lead lap and I think that makes for better racing.

5Wahoo
      ID: 28558622
      Tue, Sep 23, 2003, 11:42
Something I'm unclear about and haven't been able to find the answer:
If the first car a 'lap' down is actually 2 laps down, and the next car behind hind him is 1 lap down, does the car 2 laps down get a lap back?
6Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 3065149
      Tue, Sep 23, 2003, 12:34
Wahoo -

As best as I can tell, yes.

They would have been in the position to be the first car to get a lap back if the leader would let anybody get laps back.

Or, if you don't like that answer, they would be starting on the inside front row on the restart (disregarding any pit stops that might take place).
7Challenger
      ID: 135231212
      Tue, Sep 23, 2003, 14:02
My undestanding of the rule is that the "Lucky Dog" rule has nothing to do with "closest" car down in laps nearest the leader. It goes to the scoring sheet. The highest position driver one or more laps down on the scoring sheet.

Ex: 14 cars on the lead lap. The 15th place car is the "Lucky Dog" no matter his position on the race track in reference to the leader.

Now here's an interesting scenario - What if the "Lucky Dog" recipient is in the garage being repaired or in the pits? Do you have to actually be on the race track surface racing to benefit? If you're in the garage and don't receive the benefits, does it drop onto the next place? Inquiring minds want to know!

Btw, I like the multibenefactors idea suggested above.
8Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 3065149
      Tue, Sep 23, 2003, 14:17
You're right, Challenger.

First lapped car to get lap back under new rules

Darby said there was more benefit to giving the first car not on the lead lap its lap back than giving a lap back to the closest car to the leader.
9Wahoo
      ID: 28558622
      Tue, Sep 23, 2003, 21:54
Thanks Sludge, I wasn't able to find that.
I have to disagree with Darby's view. Newman for instance was almost 2 (1-7/8 was what was said on Inside Winston Cup) laps down after having his tires changed because of a cut tire. If his pit stop was a few seconds longer and he was 2 laps down, he most likely wouldn't have won the race. Martin for instance had the same problem as Newman and did come out 2 laps down and was effectively eliminated from contending despite having one of the faster cars on the track. This is a problem at tracks a mile or less as it is easy to get 2 laps down during a green flag stop due to a cut tire.
Pretty much gone are the days of a car more than a lap down winning a race.
10Revvingparson
      Sustainer
      ID: 59856912
      Wed, Sep 24, 2003, 06:50
The more I think about this, IF NASCAR is insistent on having a "Lucky Dog" rule, I believe it needs to be based on the drivers relationship to the lead lap car, ex: within 1-5 car lengths and those drivers are given their lap back. It should have nothing to do with being the first car on the board a lap or more down.
11KrazyKoalaBears
      Sustainer
      ID: 2752157
      Wed, Sep 24, 2003, 10:15
Within 1-5 car lengths and those drivers are given their lap back.

Just what we need. More NASCAR subjectivity. ;)

Seriously though, I think NASCAR needs to just have a rule that doesn't require any measuring or timing or any of that other stuff. They'll have enough to deal with just making sure the cars are in the right order. Just make the lapped car rule nice and easy and foolproof. What do you do if a car is/was 5-1/2 car lengths behind the leader? And what if it's determined that a car was 5-1/2 lengths behind the leader, but tapes later show they were exactly 5 lengths behind? And does this hold true on all tracks or are drivers/fans going to have to remember a specific number for each track? Let's face it, 5 car lengths is not the same at Bristol, Daytona, and California.

Personally, I think a lot of people are getting too worked up over a single race. Yes, Newman benefited from the "lucky dog" rule and won the race, but let's also be realistic that he had the best car on the track and was only put in a situation to use the "lucky dog" rule by a cut tire.

As I posted in the other thread, Tammy Jo Kirk was the first driver to benefit from the "lucky dog" rule in the Busch race. She managed to finish 24th, 12 laps down. Todd Bodine got 2 laps back on Sunday and managed to finish 17th, the 3rd from last car on the lead lap. My point is that both of these drivers got their laps back, yet they still weren't really even in contention in their respective races. The biggest key to Newman winning the race can be found in the race review...

Lap 328 : Ryan Newman does not pit during the caution and takes the lead.

12Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 3065149
      Wed, Sep 24, 2003, 10:17
Bodine finished 17th? That's like winning the race for him.
13Sludge
      Sustainer
      ID: 3065149
      Wed, Sep 24, 2003, 10:22
Actually the key to Newman winning the race would be:

Lap 296: Ryan Newman pits top off fuel for the last time.

Of course, anybody near the end of the lead lap could have done the exact same thing.

14KrazyKoalaBears
      Sustainer
      ID: 2752157
      Wed, Sep 24, 2003, 10:29
Bodine finished 17th? That's like winning the race for him. LOL!!! True, so true.

Also, you're right about lap 296. That was the biggest key and that helped him on lap 328.

15Revvingparson
      Sustainer
      ID: 59856912
      Wed, Sep 24, 2003, 11:36
And that's my point without the "Lucky Dog" rule he does not make those multiple stops at 296 and thus does not have to pit with the others at 328.

Thus the Lucky Dog rule won him the race.

If his car was so good what would have happened if he had started first car lap down(and only one pit stop on this caution)and been made to race to get on the lead lap? My Guess someone else wins the race.

I admit that I just do not like the fact that a new rule changed the complex of the first race it was used in.

A better question is in the future what happens when several good cars get a lap or laps down? Under the old rules they all stood a chance to get back their lap, now ???

I think without some modifications(multipule cars getting their lap back) the Lucky Dog rule will change the complex of many races and not necessarily for the good.
16KrazyKoalaBears
      Sustainer
      ID: 2752157
      Wed, Sep 24, 2003, 15:14
And that's my point without the "Lucky Dog" rule he does not make those multiple stops at 296 and thus does not have to pit with the others at 328.

Sure he does. Any car that is near the end of the pack makes those stops if needed. You're not going to lose a lap under the caution, so make as many as you need to if you're already at/near the end of the pack. This happens every weekend. How many times do we hear the announcers asking, "And who's going to come in for gas?" and then they wait and wait and wait until the 10th place car is the first one to pit. So, what's so special about it happening this weekend? Nothing, IMHO.

You're combining the topics of making multiple pits as a result of being at the back of the lead lap, something that happens every week, with the "lucky dog" rule. They happened to come together this weekend, but you can't say that Newman made multiple stops ONLY because of the "lucky dog" rule when it's happened forever with the back of the pack cars before the rule.

17Revvingparson
      Sustainer
      ID: 59856912
      Wed, Sep 24, 2003, 16:05
KKB a question, If Newman does not get his lap back at 296, could he have made multiple stops under that yellow and still get to restart as the first car on the inside?

Maybe it is at this point that I think the "Lucky Dog" winner is given too much of an advantage that late in the race.

Perhaps you can just say, "I'm an old dog, who is having a hard time accepting this new rule":)
18KrazyKoalaBears
      Sustainer
      ID: 2752157
      Thu, Sep 25, 2003, 09:00
Revvingparson, that all depends on the other cars a lap down. If he's the only car a lap down, then yes. If he's one of multiple cars who are a lap down and he makes multiple stops with those cars, then yes (assuming he comes out of the pits first, which I imagine his crew would ensure).

But even beyond that, the way Newman's car was running, even if he was the 2nd or 3rd car on the inside of the restart (which is about as far back as I think he could have been), he still could have passed those 1 or 2 cars that were a lap down, as well as the 4 or 5 cars on the lead lap that would have been in front of him and gotten his lap back on 325. At that point, he could have simply used the strategy he used for the rest of the race. So in essense, under your scenario, he likely would have gotten his free lap back AND taken the lead on the same caution. Boy, wouldn't that have caused a controversey! :)

I guess I just look at Newman's car and realize that most of the cars out there couldn't have done what he did. I doubt very seriously that you'll see many "lucky dog" cars winning races and/or finishing in the top 10. I may be completely wrong on this, but I just don't see it. I see Newman as a unique case. And given that he's won 7 races this season, I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to think this. I think the more races that go by where "lucky dog" drivers end up where the old lapped cars who got their laps back normally do, the controversey will die down.

19KrazyKoalaBears
      Sustainer
      ID: 517553018
      Sun, Sep 28, 2003, 18:09
I bet Tony Eury, Sr. won't be complaining about the "Lucky Dog" rule too much this week. ;)
20Revvingparson
      Sustainer
      ID: 59856912
      Sun, Sep 28, 2003, 18:45
Still don't like it;).

And two weeks running it had an effect on the outcome of the race, both Jr and Newman finish in the top 4 though they were trapped a lap down. Again this week I don't think either of these drivers would have gotten their lap back under the old rules.
21KrazyKoalaBears
      Sustainer
      ID: 517553018
      Sun, Sep 28, 2003, 19:26
Revvingparson, there sure are a lot of drivers that you don't think could have gotten their laps back. Based on your comments from the last 2 races, there were never any drivers who got their laps back under the old rules, especially the ones with great (the best?) cars. ;)

Personally, I think it's hard to speculate either way, but given how good Junior's and Newman's cars were today (a common theme for me), I think they could have done it.

22Wahoo
      ID: 21991117
      Sun, Sep 28, 2003, 21:33
I don't think the leaders would have allowed Newman or Jr. to get their laps back under the old rules, knowing that they would be back on the lead lap and in a position to contend. Neither of them was fast enough to get by the leader on their own under green although there was someone who did, I think it might have been Mike Wallace?
I don't think anyone disagrees with putting a stop to racing back to the flag (safety crew response time is much improved), but the "lucky dog" rule needs some tweaking. The more I think about it, why should anyone who can't pass the leader under green to get a lap back, be given a free pass?
I think the pit rules need some fixing yet too. NASCAR has done a great job on improving the crews safety but there is still much room for improvement.
They could determine when you can pit, based on your pitting position. If you’re in an odd number pit position, you can only pit on an odd number lap. That would prevent some of the problems today like cars parked in their pit with the tail sticking out and the mass of cars pitting at the same time. I can’t say wether it would have prevented the Green/Sadler/43 crewmember incident.
NASCAR should also dump the smaller fuel cell at superspeedways, I’d prefer to see racing on the track, even if it is fuel mileage based, rather than in the pits. That rule just hasn’t done anything to spread out the field.

And let’s hear it for Buckshot! He led the race and didn’t cause a wreck!

23KrazyKoalaBears
      Sustainer
      ID: 517553018
      Sun, Sep 28, 2003, 22:52
Wahoo, no doubt the "lucky dog" rule needs some adjustments, but I'm not in favor of making knee-jerk reactions to what we see at one or two races. Let it play out for a while and see what is found. I think there should be some manner by which some drivers get a lap back because that's what happened under the old rules. The more they can keep the same type of situations as the old racing under the new rules, the better, IMHO.

As for crew safety, there is a LOT of room for improvement. I'm glad they have them all wearing helmets now (it seems weird to think about them NOT wearing helmets), but I think they should go a step further and not allow any pit crew members over the wall until the car is stopped in the pit area. This would prevent a lot of potential incidents on pit road. Would it have prevented today's? Maybe, but I KNOW it would have prevented the incident with Johnson's crew and the incident with Jarrett's crew at IND. I know it sounds like a bit of an extreme measure, but realize that these guys are jumping out in front of cars that are going 35-45 MPH on average and praying that they stop where they're supposed to. I just don't think that's as safe a setup as it could be.

I don't mind the cars pitting at the same time because they do separate it into lead lap and non-lead lap cars. If you separate them into pit placements, then you effectively put a complete end to pit racing. If the 1st, 3rd, and 5th place cars pit, where do you put the 2nd, 4th, and 6th place cars? Where do you put the even cars afer they pit? In other words, the pit crews become a non-factor. A crew could take 30 seconds and not be penalized because the only way to line them up after pit stops is according to how they went in, unless they're all going in together.

Lastly, I also think the smaller fuel cells are doing a heck of a lot of nothing. They haven't separated the fields because most everybody is either a) pitting under caution or b) pitting together to make sure they have draft partners. Within 5-10 laps, they're all together again. And the new changes (restrictor plate and spoiler) didn't do anything either. NASCAR really needs to look at some better options. Personally, I would prefer they do some things to loosen the cars up, not tighten them down. For instance, if NASCAR lowered the max height of the spoiler to a ridiculous point, the cars would be forced to slow down or risk spinning out in the first corner. Things like that would still allow each team to have their own engines, like every other race, but force them to cut them back until they knew their car would be stable. There are other changes like this that I've heard many drivers be proponents of. They're tired of everyone running bunched up together and I'm pretty sure most fans are as well. It's pretty bad when Ryan Newman finishes 4th and feels like he has nothing to celebrate except that he finished.

24Revvingparson
      Sustainer
      ID: 59856912
      Mon, Sep 29, 2003, 08:52
I have to agree with KKB you can not really change the way they pit under yellow. I realize that it would take some money, and at some tracks it would not be possible, but at some tracks it's a matter of the size of pit road that needs to be reconfigured/enlarged.

The only thing that the smaller fuel cell has done is make more pit stops, and because drafting is so critical at the superspeedway, you just cannot afford to pit by yourself. Which means the cars are not being spread out for any extended period of time.

As for the "Lucky Dog" I still believe it should be tweaked to be where the lapped car is in relationship to the leader on the track, not on the "board". With all the technology they can tell if a car is 3-5 car lengths away from the leader when the yellow comes out. By doing this I believe that it would be a compromise between the "old way", and simply "giving" a lap back even if the driver is 1/2-3/4 laps down(Newman last week). By doing it this way a driver must really work to stay with the leaders.

By the I way don't disagree that Newman (two weeks running) or Jr (yesterday)did not have very good cars. But they got caught in "racing situations" and ended up a lap down. These type of situations have always impacted the out come of races. And in the past some good cars were not able to recover from such racing situations.
25Wahoo
      ID: 28558622
      Mon, Sep 29, 2003, 12:48
After more thought, my pitting rule wouldn't work.
No crew over the wall until the car is stopped does sound like the next step along with getting all of your car in the pit box.
I would like to see and end to pit racing though, that's what the track is for.

Lucky dog:
I think you have to look at the reason cars got their lap back rather than the fact they did. Originally there was no rule about racing to the yellow, it was an agreement between the drivers that no one would pass when the yellow came out, lapped drivers did not get a lap back, they had to earn it under green.
It's only in the last several years, since teams formed, that giving a lap back became popular. You would have the leader try to help their teammate get a lap back along with a few others who may have been close. You would still see on occasion (Jeff Gordon comes to mind) where someone would try to prevent someone from getting a lap back because that person could come back and contend.
I understand it’s better to have more cars on the lead lap from a competition point of view. But flats are a part of racing, as is damage to the cars and to artificially help someone who has had some type of problem get back on the lead lap and contend for a win just isn’t good in my opinion.

Maybe 2004 aero changes will help on the superspeedways.

26KrazyKoalaBears
      Sustainer
      ID: 517553018
      Mon, Oct 06, 2003, 00:38
One thing that seems to have been lost in the "Lucky Dog" controversey in all discussions (both on TV, on NASCAR.com, etc.) is the no more racing back to the yellow. After watching today's race, I have to applaud NASCAR for finally implementing this rule. I've said that I agree with this rule in other threads, but today shows what the rule change was all about.

The first case was Elliot Sadler crashing hard into the wall. His car caught on fire and he was in a hurry to get out. By the time he started to come out of his window, the safety crews were there.

The second case was Kurt Busch's car fire. After seeing the inside of his car splattered with oil earlier, it's a small wonder that his fire wasn't worse than it was. Again, by the time Kurt Busch came to a stop and was climbing through the window, the safety crews were there.

Most of use remember Bobby Labonte's fire at Chicagoland earlier this year as well as Ryan Newman's rolling inferno at Michigan. A few might even remember Rusty and Kenny Wallace's fire incidents at the second Michigan race this year. In each incident, there were no safety workers to be found when the cars came to a stop and the drivers were getting out. In every instance, the driver was well out of the car by the time the safety crews got to them. In most cases, the safety crew wasn't even in sight yet.

This was a dangerous setup for NASCAR. For instance, what if Dale, Jr's car had caught fire at Dover and they still had the racing back to the yellow in place. There would have been precious seconds lost trying to get the dazed driver from his car. The same thing for Elliot Sadler at Daytona. Any of these incidents could have been far worse than they were.

But now, the safety crews have gained back those valuable seconds. Because the cars don't race back to the yellow, the safety crews can get on the track faster without risking their own safety. They can get to the accident scene faster and deal with it as they need to. They can assist drivers out of their buring cars instead of wrapping an arm around them after the driver has already struggled to get out and is bent over on the grass. They can be in the picture, instead of everybody, most importantly the drivers, wondering where in the heck they are.

So while NASCAR may still have some issues to work out with the "Lucky Dog" rule, I think they're headed completely in the right direction by not racing back to the yellow. Driver safety should always be the most important thing in NASCAR and the one or two times a year the racing back to the yellow actually made a difference is not worth the seconds lost in getting to the drivers involved in an accident.

27Revvingparson
      Sustainer
      ID: 59856912
      Mon, Oct 06, 2003, 09:18
KKB I Continue to agree with the first part of the Lucky Dog-no racing back to the yellow. Though as the Busch race proved they still have some work to figure out how to score drivers when the yellow comes out. It's giving the lap back that doesn't sit well.

By the way drivers(Mr. Benson) need to be instructed to stay in or near their cars until the safety crew gets to them. As I watched Benson walk down the track all I could think of was Helton coming up with the Benson rule "stay in or near you're car until the safety crew arrives":)
28Wahoo
      ID: 21991117
      Mon, Oct 06, 2003, 16:33
I don't think racing back to the yellow was lost in the controversy, I just think there wasn't any argument against that part. Everyone agreed that part was a good thing.
In addition to waiting in their cars, the drivers need to know where the "lucky dog" will pass too!
29KrazyKoalaBears
      Sustainer
      ID: 2752157
      Tue, Oct 07, 2003, 11:31
Just for the record, I wasn't saying it got lost in this debate, just that it seems to have been lost in the NASCAR world in general. There are still those who believe we should be racing back to the green (though not many, if any, here) and I was just making a general post about that since the KAN race showed 2 prime examples of how it will help.
30 Challenger
      ID: 135231212
      Tue, Oct 07, 2003, 13:45
Haven't rec'd it Little M! If you are still around, try this addy
31Challenger
      ID: 135231212
      Tue, Oct 07, 2003, 13:49
Oops! Wrong forum and can't edit it out! Bummer!
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