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0 Subject: NASCAR is Stupid... What Else is New?

Posted by: KrazyKoalaBears
- Leader [517553018] Sun, Jun 06, 2004, 17:55

I'm watching the MBNA 400 and it's currently under the red flag... again. After an 18-car pileup thanks to Dave Blaney's spotter not knowing how to do his job while his car wasn't on the lead lap, the race has been red flagged after Kasey Kahne crashed. There are now 5 cars on the lead lap, a complete mockery of racing. So, how did we get from one red flag to the other? Well, it's quite an interesting story...

First, I wonder why NASCAR hasn't gotten wise to the idea of crews being able to work on their cars during the red flag. I watched the Indy 500 last week and didn't know Indy had the rule that crews could work on their cars during a red flag (in the case of Indy, it was for rain). At first, I wasn't sure what I thought about the idea, but after Indy dropped the green flag, I loved the idea. Cars that were performing horribly were suddenly fixed. Even AJ Foyt, IV was able to get his car fixed after a crash (much more rare in Indy than NASCAR) and come back out to race. The idea promotes competition. It promotes having more cars being able to actually race.

Right now, NASCAR is promoting quick fixes. The cars that were damaged in the 18-car crash came to pit road when the red flag was raised and made as many quick fixes as possible. All this creates is crippled cars making laps. They're not competitive, for the most part, and they become more of a hinderance to the race than anything else. Now, would all the wrecked cars be competitive if they were allowed to work on their cars under the red? No. But would there be MORE than there are normally in NASCAR? Yes. If you want to cater to the fans, then give them more competition.

Which brings me to my second point. Why does NASCAR have it so bad for Dale, Jr.? Let's be realistic here: Rusty Wallace scraps the wall and continues driving. Within half a lap, he's pretty much back up to his previous speeds. So, what does NASCAR do? They throw a caution flag. Now, this is a caution flag that has not come out at other races under similar circumstances. In fact, NASCAR has rarely let this sort of thing pause a race, and rightfully so. So why was there a caution flag this time? Did it have anything to do with there only being four cars on the lead lap and Dale, Jr. being the first car a lap down? My guess is yes. I've seen it happen at other races where if Junior is a lap down, NASCAR seems willing to do anything to let him get that lap back. They have a real quick hand with the yellow flag when it's Junior ready to get a lap back, but they're slow as molasses when it's someone else. I'm not stupid. I know Junior is NASCAR's gravy train, but it makes them look more like the Earnhardt Racing League when they do stuff like this.

And about some other car being ready to get a lap back, why didi NASCAR fail to throw the caution when Casey Mears drove right by the start/finish line with a blown engine? There's two ways they would have known to throw the caution. First, I can't imagine Mears' car sounding right when it drove by the flagman. That, combined with a blue-colored smoke coming otu the back should have signaled a blown engine and oil being put on the track. Second, THERE WAS OIL BEING PUT ON THE TRACK! FX showed a clip of Mears' car driving by putting down oil. With all the spotters they have around the track, SOMEBODY should have seen that.

Now Darryl Waltrip, in all his, um, glory, says that it probably wouldn't have mattered because the yellow wouldn't have come out in time to save Kahne. I completely disagree. If NASCAR had thrown the caution at the time that FX saw Mears' car having a problem (which should have been when AT LEAST one NASCAR spotter should have seen the oil), Kahne not only would have slowed down in time, but he also would not have been driving down around the bottom, which is where the oil was. So yes, Darryl, it would have saved him.

Alas, it was only Scott Riggs who was a lap down, so NASCAR was hesitant to throw the caution flag. And with the race time creeping into having more caution/red flag actual time than racing actual time, I'm sure NASCAR was willing to do anything, including putting drivers directly in harm's way, to keep from throwing the caution flag. How was Mears' situation any different from Wallace's? They were at least of equal danger to the rest of the field, if not Mears being more.

And speaking of being in danger, I thought NASCAR was supposed to be getting better about getting to drivers after a wreck because of no more racing back to the yellow flag. Instead, you have a top-caliber driver in Matt Kenseth getting interviewed by FX after not having seen an ambulance or rescue worker at all. And it's not like FX was out on the track. Kenseth had time to take his helmet and other gear off, cross the track, clear the pit road wall, holler at NASCAR officials standing there doing nothing (apparently, all they can do is count lug nuts and make sure a car is within the painted lines during a pit stop), and continue towards the garage area where he was met by an FX crew.

This is just stupid! And now, we've had 4 laps of caution. FOR WHAT?!?! They red flagged the race. Could they not get everything done that they needed to do under the yellow flag? Following a red flag, there should be, at most, 2 laps of caution. That's it! One lap for lead lap cars to pit and one for lap down cars.

And now they've waved off the start for ONE MORE LAP! Well, of course, it's politics now. With one more lap, it's only 10 laps to go, meaning the field starts single file. Since there's only 5 cars on the lead lap, let's showcase them as much as we can. Screw the rest of the field. Screw what the rules say we're supposed to do. Screw everything. We're doing it our way! Oh, and this just conveniently allows Junior to not have to deal with any lapped traffic. As a result, he's already picked up one position and moved into 3rd. And now he challenges Tony Stewart for 2nd. Gee, how nice that Junior didn't have to deal with that lapped traffic. Didn't that make life so easy for him?

This is all such a farce! I swear, this may be the last race I watch with any enthusiasm. I "saw the light" with the Indy 500 and how they handle everything. They do what's right as much as possible from what I've seen. They also seem to have rules in place for most every situation you could think of and they all seem to have driver safety in mind.

If I wanted a scripted "sport" where the rules are made up on the fly and a few select people are allowed all the breaks, I would watch WWE.

1Wahoo
      ID: 23419318
      Sun, Jun 06, 2004, 23:27
I have to agree with the Dale Jr. comments, NASCAR does seem to cater to him when the opportunity presents itself. I just hope someone can outrun him over the final 10 races. Wouldn’t that create an outcry from Jr. fans if he had a hefty lead going into the final 10 races only to lose out on a championship because his points lead was erased?
As far as working on the cars under red flag conditions, that would be fine as long as all teams had the opportunity. Part of the problem with that is not all the cars may have a clear track to get back to pit road and it would delay safety crews from getting to the wreck. I also have seen many more CART/IRL races where there are only a couple of cars on the lead lap than NASCAR races. Part of what lead to their downfall IMO. A small number of cars on the lead lap and red flags are not a regular occurrence in NASCAR so I don’t think a change is warranted. Besides how many ‘also rans’ do we need out there, looking at the list of drivers who finished from 29th down, there’s only 3 who had a shot to finish top 10 if they had the chance to fix their cars. Besides, red flags would last only as long as it took Jr.’s crew to fix the 8. ;-} A better fix would be adjusting points to award only those finishing in the top 20 or so to eliminate crippled cars on the track as has been discussed before.
Not sure about the Kahne missing the oil since I listened on the radio but hearing Martin’s version, Kahne was running a higher line on the track than Martin who missed the oil. Not to say that a yellow shouldn’t have come out or Kahne would have hit the oil anyway.
Now DW might not be the brightest guy in the booth but he more than makes up for it in personality. Kenseth did seem pretty upset during his interview, he’s usually not one to sling comments around like he did.
I agree with the length of the cautions, the 20-25 laps NASCAR ran to figure out the running order when Newman broke just about every pit road rule he could was ridiculous. If it was that confusing, they should have red flagged the race to figure it out. Which brings me to a rule change that should be made. Cumulative penalties for pit road violations rather than only enforcing the harshest penalty. There have been too many cases lately of cars violating multiple pit road rules because the worst penalty is going to the end of the lead lap. That’s not a penalty if you’re already back there or there are only a few cars on the lead lap.
Back to the caution laps. I went to the Ohio 250 truck race a few weeks back where half the race was run under caution. It wasn’t because of major wrecks but because it would take 10-15 laps to restart the race after a simple spin where no contact was made. The cleanup crews would do their check and be off the track in 5 laps or so. There were many comments from the crowd around us about the number of laps taken to restart the race and Bobby Hamilton also wasn’t happy with it. My wife who watched the race on SPEED told me they would run commercials throughout the cautions and into the restart. Seems like the cautions were sort of an ‘official timeout’. Now I understand the stations covering the races have to pay the bills but to manipulate the number of caution laps so fans at home don’t miss too much racing is wrong. The start of the race was even delayed until the SPEED crew finished their interviews and was stated as such by the track announcer.
NASCAR, even with all it’s faults is still the best racing series to me. F1 is just about how much money you have to spend and not many have a shot to win unless Schumacher wrecks. I mean the BMW Williams team is adding a second windtunnel. The split between CART and IRL has just about ruined open wheel racing here in the states. Pretty bad when they had to have field fillers without sponsors for the Indy 500. Drag racing, sports car racing, motorcycle racing and most other forms of racing are much more participation sports than spectator sports. To me nothing compares to the fender to fender action NASCAR offers.
2KrazyKoalaBears
      Leader
      ID: 517553018
      Sun, Jun 06, 2004, 23:47
I like the fender-to-fender action, but it's the antics that are getting to me. It's getting to the point where I would much rather watch an unbalanced IRL/CART/F1 than to know exactly what's going to happen with NASCAR. When Junior was racing Riggs for "first place a lap down" I jokingly said to my fiancee that NASCAR would throw a caution for "debris on the track" as soon as he got the position. Well, it wasn't quite THAT bad, but it was still pretty bad, IMHO.

You're right that IRL/CART usually only have a few cars on the lead lap, but that's because of a huge competitive imbalance that NASCAR doesn't have. NASCAR could easily have a few more competitive cars on the lead lap if they let crews work on their cars during cautions. True, red flags are rare, but it's those precise incidents that are when NASCAR would benefit most from allowing crews to work on their cars. Today's race could have had a much better finish if many of the guys who got caught up in the wreck were allowed to work on their cars. Sure, that would allow some also-rans the opportunity to get back out there and create havoc, but that's no different than any other week. The idea is to try and consistently put a good race on the track. And yes, ALL crews would have to be able to service their cars. If this were to happen, I would say that NASCAR simply has a rule that no work can be done on a car under the red flag until they say so. Essentially, you allow the clean up and other safety issues to be taken care of, then you let everyone onto pit road to work. It could be done.

And I agree about the cumulative factor of pit road rule breaking. If the first rule you break says "end of the longest line" and the second one is also "end of the longest line," to me that's the end of the longest line twice, meaning you lose a lap AND end up at the end of the longest line. The drivers aren't stupid anymore. It's just NASCAR that is. Newman used the rules to his advantage at Dover last year and he used them again this year. The problem is that NASCAR always seems to be in "catch up" mode. They're not putting the rules in place ahead of time. They only create a new rule when someone takes advantage of a loophole. Like the "Frank Stoddard" rule for the All-Star race. Same kind of thing.

I'm beginning to think there are better things to watch on Sunday afternoon and if NASCAR keeps up this kind of crap like what happened today, I'm going to be exploring my options.

3Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Mon, Jun 14, 2004, 00:30
Anyone catch the race today (they run it about 7 miles from my house). What a scam! Someone actually threw a cooler and hit the flag man in the head when everyone realized they would run the end of the race under caution instead of cleaning the track and running the last 4 laps under green.

Jimmy Johnson also almost got screwed early with what can best be described as "pace car mishap" or, as NASCAR put it, "human error." Really, what exactly does that mean, NASCAR?

Jeff Gordon was really pissed at the end. Frankly, he's always finished poorly at Pocono, so I'd have taken his fourth place finish and got in the truck for Michigan. But he was right to rips NASCAR.
4PuNk42AE
      Donor
      ID: 36635522
      Mon, Jun 14, 2004, 00:39
I caught most of the first 100 laps today. Pocano just doesn't seem like a interesting race. Just the way the camera was working today didn't seem like they were going over 100 MPH most of the time. What happened at the end?
5Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Mon, Jun 14, 2004, 00:46
You missed all the excitement. D.J. (and Burton, I believe) blew engines at the end, and while the cars weren't on the field there was oil on the track. So they ran the last bit under caution. People in the stands were pissed.

Some nice wrecks-- NASCAR has some video.
6PuNk42AE
      Donor
      ID: 36635522
      Mon, Jun 14, 2004, 01:18
I just read about the Kenseth-Harvick thing. For some reason anytime i'm off sunday to watch a race, I see the 1st half, and then leave and i'm at the Dover Mall checking out who's leading 30 minutes later haha.
7KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 511026107
      Mon, Jun 14, 2004, 10:52
First, I don't mind finishing under caution. It happens in plenty of other racing series', so it should be fine in NASCAR. The problem is that NASCAR got this hair-brained idea that they will red-flag a race within a certain number of laps of the finsh (what that number is, nobody knows) if they think it will mean they can finish under the green. Now, rednecks being rednecks, they think this means that EVERY race will finish under the green. And why shouldn't they? NASCAR has made it clear that finishing under the green everytime is what THEY want as well.

Personally, I think they need to go back to the DW school of racing and have Green, White, Checkered. Yellow flags for caution, but get rid of the red flag except for rain, bad wrecks, etc. It's stupid, IMHO. You don't see fans in other series' throwing coolers at flagmen for doing their job. You don't see fans in other series' tossing their seat cushions, beer cans, etc. onto the track when the race ends under caution. No, they just cheer the victor and/or head for the exit. What's done is done.

Second, Kevin Harvick should be suspended... again! What he and Kenseth did yesterday was dispicable and just shows why NASCAR will continue to be considered a redneck sport until something is done to stop that crap. As Larry Mac said (one of the FEW things I agree with him about) they're not the ones that are going to have to fix those cars. Some body guys are now going to have to spend hours upon hours fixing the cars that Harvick and Kenseth beat up. Meanwhile, Harvick will get more airtime on NASCAR 360 living it up in his pad and Kenseth will just go on berating his team for having such a bad car (that always seems to finish well...). But even beyond their own body work, they almost got other cars caught up in their mess. That's inexcusable. Apparently the threat of $25k and 25 points isn't doing much, so fine them both $50k, dock them 50 points, and make Harvick sit a race for being a repeat offender. They'll cry that it's unfair, but maybe these drivers will start racing and stop thinking they're in a demolition derby.

Third, the Jimmie Johnson fiasco was a bunch of crap. You would think NASCAR has been doing this "racin' stuff" for about a week based on what happened. First the pace car doesn't know what to do and then the flagman at the pit entrance has no clue what to do. Given that everybody has headphones on, why didn't NASCAR do something about it all BEFORE it became an issue? They should have seen that the pace car didn't catch up with Johnson and realized that, according to their rules, pit road shouldn't be open. At that point, call the flagman at pit road and tell him to keep it closed. Would it piss off some drivers who thought pit road would open? Yes, but at least it's the same thing for everyone. As it was, Johnson almost lost a race he dominated soley because of NASCAR and their lack of understanding of their own rules.

Fourth, weren't they going to have electronic monitoring devices spread around the track to help determine race position at the caution flag? What happened? We still ended up with a 10 lap caution (121-131) while NASCAR tried to figure everything out (and apparently never did!). 10 laps at Pocono is forever! This is a 500 mile race that takes 4 hours to complete! There's no excuse for a 10 lap caution. If something is going to take that long to clean up, fix, or whatever, THEN is the time to use the red flag. People don't pay good money to see cars go around the track at 65 MPH while NASCAR figures out their mistakes.

In the end, there were over 50 laps of caution in the Pocono 500. Over 1/4 of the race was run at 65 MPH. If I were a fan, I'd be pissed about THAT, not the fact that the race finished under caution. NASCAR needs to start having more 2-3 lap caution flags. While the pace car is picking up the field, cleanup should be underway. Ever see an INDY crew clean up an oil spill? There's something like 500 guys out there with kitty litter and brooms. It's cleaned up before the cars can even turn a lap. Why does it take NASCAR 3 laps or more? Hire more crew people if you need more! The exact lap after the caution flag is thrown, pit road should be open for lead lap cars. That's lap 1 under caution. Lap 2, pit road is open for lapped cars. Maybe 1 more lap, if needed at a place like Bristol, and then back to green. At Pocono, a 2 lap caution should be a given. Instead, 4-lap and 5-lap cautions were the standard. Ridiculous.

Fortunately for Jimmie Johnson, he dominated the race. If he were simply a great/good car, he wouldn't have won a race he probably should have because of NASCAR's incompetence. NASCAR needs fixin'... lots of fixin'!

8KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 511026107
      Mon, Jun 14, 2004, 10:57
After a lengthy meeting between the parties following the race in the NASCAR hauler, it was determined that both Kenseth and Harvick would be scored on the tail end of the lead lap. Thus, Harvick was scored 20th and Kenseth 21st.

Harvick had been scored 11th originally.

NASCAR president Mike Helton said Sunday that the sanctioning body will review the tapes of the incidents and that further penalites will be considered.

So Harvick loses 9 spots (32 points). What did Kenseth lose? Apparently not much. But since he's one of the "golden children" as a result of winning the championship last year, is there any surprise? Not from me. I never liked Kenseth last year and I don't like him even more this year. IMHO he's an arrogant crybaby. All last year he would talk about how crappy his car was and would talk bad about his crew and the setup and everything else. Funny, it won the championship for him. Some drivers should have it so bad.

9Sludge
      ID: 523482015
      Mon, Jun 14, 2004, 12:31
For once, I completely agree with you KKB.

BTW, wasn't Kenseth actually ahead of Harvick when the caution flew and the shenanigans began? Kenseth nearly wrecked Harvick under green while passing him. Then, under caution, Harvick first spun Kenseth out, and I don't think that he slowed down to allow Kenseth to pass him so that he could spin him out. If so, then that means that Kenseth lost at least two more spots (and thus more points) than Harvick did.
10Challenger
      Donor
      ID: 481126818
      Mon, Jun 14, 2004, 13:42
I'm sorry, the punishment should have came Sunday during the race! Both should have been parked immediately! Neither was a choir boy under green with both purposely going across the hoods of the other under green, in turn being "jacked up" by the other in response. NASCAR should have brought both in for at the least a stop and go.

Then definitely when Harvick 1st spun out Matty boy on the caution, Mr. Goodwrench should have been parkedand taken to the tool shed. If he had they situation might have been diffused. Ok, who am I kidding? That would only last for a couple laps anyway. Point is NASCAR has to do more to diffuse any of those idiots that what to turn the race into a demolition derby. (Didn't I say this before?!!?) NASCAR must start parking those cars during the race. All drivers will eventually learn the significant ramifications. If not, then their owners, teams and even the sponsors would hopefully drop them. Afterall, no driver has ever won a live race sitting at home.

just my $6.00's worth ($.02 doesn't buy much anything anymore)
11PuNk42AE
      Donor
      ID: 36635522
      Mon, Jun 14, 2004, 13:44
Problem is almost 100% of these incidents happen at the end of the race. What's the point of parking them?
12Challenger
      Donor
      ID: 481126818
      Mon, Jun 14, 2004, 14:14
Punk, Let me rephrase. The punishment should have started during the race.

Then jumped to: Ok, who am I kidding? That would only last for a couple laps anyway. Point is NASCAR has to do more to diffuse any of those idiots sooner........

Nowhere did I say this should be the only punishment.
13KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 511026107
      Mon, Jun 14, 2004, 15:48
If you park them at the point it happens, it pretty much guarantees they'll go at least a lap down. I think that is why NASCAR is doing the "tail end of the lead lap." However, if they were parked at the time of the incident (let's say 3 laps before the official end of the race), that would have put Harvick/Kenseth around 24/25, in the realm of Jeff Burton and Dale Jarrett.

To me, that still isn't enough. As PuNk42AE pointed to, most of the beatin' and bangin' like that happens at the end of the race, so there isn't much to lose. And what about if the race was like Dover where there were only 5 cars on the lead lap. Somehow, "punishing" a car all the way back to 5th place doesn't seem like a big deal. That's the equivalent and this is why NASCAR is a joke. They arbitrarily make up rules that sound good at the time but have about 2 minutes of thought behind them. They need to stop doing the fix-the-current-problem rules and actually make rules that fix the overall problem and fix it for good.

For serious offenses like Harvick/Kenseth, I think a monetary fine coupled with a points fine and escalating probation/suspension would likely do the trick. Something like:

First offense: $25k, 25 points, 18-race probation
Second: $50k, 50 points, 1-race suspension
Third: Forfeit all money and points from race AND $100k, 100 points, 3-race suspension, loss of all provisionals

Major Offense while on Probation: +1 Major. In other words, if you're on probation and you have a Major Offense, it's considered 2 Majors.

For minor offenses, something like:

First offense: $5k, 0 points, 3-race probation
Second: $10k, 10 points, 6-race probation
Third: Considered a major offense. Couple with previous major offenses, if any.

Sound ridiculous? You bet your bottom it's ridiculous. But, if it's put in place, how many drivers are going to have multiple offenses? Set it up so it's a calendar year. You have your first offense at the Pocono 500, that's considered one offense until the next Pocono 500. I understand that some guys are going to lose their head every now and again. That's what the First Offense (major) covers. You pay for it and it's a reminder to keep your emotions in check, but it's not going to kill your season. Get up to that Third Offense (major) and you're likely looking for a new job, as you should be.

So what's major and what's minor? That would be for NASCAR to decide, but they would need to lay down some guidelines. Anything clearly detrimental to the sport like Harvick/Kenseth or someone CLEARLY wrecking another car should be considered Major. Things like the deck lid of the car being out of range (to a certain amount) should be considered Minor. Throwing your gloves at another car or making a gesture after you feel you've been wrecked should be considered minor.

I know it's not perfect, but it's the kind of thinking NASCAR should be doing. They need to step up the monetary fines, point deductions, and suspensions until these guys start thinking twice about what they do on the track. Right now, they just don't care.

14Wahoo
      ID: 425141612
      Wed, Jun 16, 2004, 14:02
Most of the reason NASCAR is screwed up is from trying to fix what is perceived to be wrong and fixing the fixes. People have been watching for years and not complaining about yellow flag finishes, fuel mileage racing, cars on the lead lap, rough driving…
The racing back to the yellow rule was a good change but was made overly complicated, just revert back to the last lap, simple, everyone understands it and it’s easy to implement. Most of the recent problems can be traced back to this change.
Races have ended under yellow forever, so what!? It happens, it’s all part of the game. Does any other sport extend the time allotted just so there’s a competitive finish? How many last quarters of football are meaningless, the last 1/4 of last nights NBA championship? Don’t complicate the rules by issuing red flags if there are 5 laps to go and you are on a track of less than 1-1/2 miles but more than a ½ mile…
As far as the fan throwing the cooler, you will always have a few idiots in a crowd of that many, happens in every sport. Fortunately other fans pointed him out.
The Kenseth-Harvick issue, money is almost meaningless as a penalty as the teams pick up the tab most of the time and unless it gets into the 6 digit range, its pocket change to most. Personally, I’m sick of seeing Harvicks face everywhere, can’t stand his personality and his attitude isn’t backed up by his performance. If Kenseth was constantly ripping his crew, I don’t think they’d continue to pull off the pit stops they have or provide the equipment they have. Most people just wouldn’t perform if they are constantly criticized. And he’s definitely not one of NASCAR’s golden boys just for the fact that he races for Rousch who has never been one of the good old boys.
15Sludge
      ID: 523482015
      Wed, Jun 16, 2004, 15:39
The problem with reverting back to the last lap is the uproar that will occur when the lead changes hands and it is too late in the race to get back under green (e.g. Gordon passing Earnhardt Jr. at Talladega).

I could see reverting back to the last lap except for possible lead changes that would have an effect on the top 5 in the running order. I could see something like that working.
16Wahoo
      ID: 425141612
      Wed, Jun 16, 2004, 16:18
Too complicated. It needs to be a simple fix that's easy to implement and simple to understand. If the yellow comes out just after you made a pass for the lead and the race finishes under yellow, too bad, you lose, you should have made the pass sooner.
All the screwups lately have been human error due to overly complicated rules.
17KrazyKoalaBears
      ID: 511026107
      Wed, Jun 16, 2004, 16:48
If Kenseth was constantly ripping his crew, I don’t think they’d continue to pull off the pit stops they have or provide the equipment they have.

Amazingly, he still does it and they still do their job. I can't count the number of times he's complained about his car and crew. He's smart and does it in a non-chalant way, but if you listen to what he says, it's right there.

And the fines/probation handed down by NASCAR today are crap. As Wahoo said, until it gets into the 6-figure range, it doesn't matter too much. 6-figures is loss of a full race's earnings. THAT will wake some people up.

18Wahoo
      ID: 23419318
      Mon, Jun 21, 2004, 22:13
Hey! Let's here it for a controversy free weekend for NASCAR!
Although Stewart provided a little news.
Can't wait to see how it goes on the road coarse this weekend.
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