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Subject: Dell & Vista: BEWARE!!!!
Posted by: loki
- SuperDude [4211201420] Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 18:50
I just purchased a Dell Inspiron laptop, and as of now I have spent over 10 hours trying to resolve problems with the machine. The first session was to enable me to connect to the Internet wirelessly. After a number of hours the incompetent tech managed to resolve the problem and we went on to the next issue. I also purchased a Dell wireless printer and Dell wireless adapter. I was unable to install either the printer or the wireless adapter and asked for tech support. After a long time the tech realized that the CD shipped with the computer did not have Vista compatible drivers for the printer, and he had to download the Vista drivers in order to install the printer.
The tech then spent hours trying to install the wireless adapter and when he was unable told me I had to call a special printer help number. This number was only Dell's main telephone number. The following day I called back and after the usual long time on hold was connected to a tech who told me he couldn't help me but would transfer me to the wireless department. The tech at the wireless department after a long period of time determined that there were NO drivers that could connect this wireless adapter to a Vista machine. The tech also was unable to get my Palm blue tooth to be discovered by the laptop. Dell also sold me a Logitech blue tooth mouse that was incompatible with the touch pad and could not be installed. I am a relatively patient person, but after about 10 hours on the phone with Dell tech support I decided I wanted to return the machine and buy a Mac. Dell has a 21 day return policy but the small print states that the customer must pay for the returns unless there is a problem with the product. The supervisor who I was on the telephone with said he would contact customer care himself so that I would have no problems returning the machine and would have no problems with Dell paying the shipping costs(which are substantial). At this point after 134 minutes on the telephone with this particular tech support number I was disconnected!! I feel that I should be able to do a commercial for Apple. |
| 1 | soxzeitgeist
ID: 302121615
Fri, Mar 16, 2007, 20:49
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You won't regret coming over to the dark side. I purchased a macBook in December and haven't looked back. The only complaint that I had, and it's a minor one, is the absence of Office (it comes loaded with a 30 day "test drive") at purchase. I would gladly have traded some of the iLife novelty features like Garage Band and Comic Life for a bit more utility.
Also, being me, I ponied up for the Apple Care extended protection, just in case.
But it's amazingly fast and I've had (knock on wood) zero problems with reliabiltiy, connections and compatibility plus good support for the questions I did have, what with the switch to mac world.
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| 2 | Kyle
Donor
ID: 52753312
Sat, Mar 17, 2007, 01:46
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Soxzeitgeist is a Gurupie and a Switcher.
Vista is scaring me. I am afraid to buy a new computer. Are there any more horror stories or good stories with Vista. I also haven't heard anything bad via the Mac. I'll be in the market at the beginning of the next school year for a laptop for school and getting rid of my clunky desktop (HP, I've had no problems with it). I have been a Windows user for life but Vista is scaring me with all of it's antics. Right now I run XP and like it, how much different is it really? I think I could handle a change to OS10 rather than Vista.
Thanks for the help!?
PS For reference I'll be a junior in college next year, and my desktop is 2 years old. I have no need for a hightech super graphics or sound chip or anything of that sort. If a typewriter could get me to RotoGuru and also spell check I'd buy that. Its just that i want a fast processor and good memory for my somewhat massive music collection (iTunes 3000 songs). I'll probably get an external harddrive with a laptop for the music tho. Just an FYI if you wanted to offer some advice to know where i was coming from.
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| 3 | GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 060151121
Sat, Mar 17, 2007, 02:13
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The two people that I know that loaded Vista went back to XP two days later.
Both are tech types and said it was absolutely horrible.
My Grandson used his graduation money to by an Apple Laptop and has been very, very happy with it.
I've been a windows guy forever, but sure am starting to think about going to Apple next time I buy a new laptop.
Cliff
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| 4 | R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Sat, Mar 17, 2007, 03:37
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The problems with Vista are because it is new. Not many companies have created stable Vista-compatible drivers for their products yet, and even those that have are having other predictable issues with it. (Its the same for any new OS release.) The general rule I follow is, NEVER buy a new OS. Wait until the first update, or service pack, or whatever is available. All the people using Vista now are basically testing it while Microsoft and all the hardware/software companies get feedback on their drivers and issues. XP was the same.
As far as functionality, Win98 and Win2000 users had no problems sticking with their OS's for a while after XP's release. You won't miss much initially. Eventually though, as Vista, its drivers and programs made for it are optomized, you'll want it. My laptop came with a free upgrade to Vista, and I plan on using it at some point... just waiting for the international consensus first. :)
As far as getting a MAC, can't go wrong there either. If you're buying today, I'd get a MAC or an XP machine.
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| 5 | xpdurmind
ID: 572381613
Sat, Mar 17, 2007, 04:17
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2 weeks ago I helped my cousin set up his new hp vista laptop. Out of the box, it took me about 4 hrs to set it up on wireless network, and give it access to other peripherals attached to the main pc, set up his email accounts and install a few of his applications. It took time for me to find my way around the vista interface, but he hasn't encountered any problems.
I've had problems running some of my software on my new vista machine ( got it today) and mostly it's driver issues. Microsoft suggests running their free copy of virtual machine, where you can simulate an older os environment where your software can run with no problems. I haven't figured out how to install win 2000 on the virtual partition yet though. I've also had a problem with firefox that took me over an hour to fix. And aside from wasting the last 4-5 hours, I'm starting to like my new toy.
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| 6 | Balrog
Dude
ID: 02856618
Sat, Mar 17, 2007, 10:40
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I set up my wife's new Toshiba laptop three weeks ago. Network (wired) and file and settings transfer (from her old XP box) went quick and smooth. She's been on a business road trip for the last ten days and had to use dialup nearly everywhere. No problems. She barely knew XP but likes Vista better. That being said, I'm not upgrading my XP box, probably ever. I won't hesitate to get Vista on my next new computer though.
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| 7 | loki
SuperDude
ID: 4211201420
Sat, Mar 17, 2007, 17:19
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I do know better than to buy a product when it is introduced, whether it be a new OS or new model automobile. However, my old computer's hard drive crashed necessitating reformatting and reinstallation of Windows XP. The old machine is now barely functional and should die completely very soon. Thus I was forced into buying a computer now. I have had Dell PCs for years without problems and did not expect the hassles that I have and am still having.
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| 8 | Slackjawed Yokel
ID: 425869
Sun, Mar 18, 2007, 00:03
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I got a new Dell desktop a couple of weeks back that came with Vista. Yeah, the main problem I've had has also been with Firefox (xpicleanup garbage). Had to uninstall it and re-install it a couple of times, but finally found an easier solution which was to delete the xpicleanup.dat file out of the user's directory. Also there's no driver yet for my hp printer, but hp had a way on their website to 'trick' vista to get it to work.
I actually use a wireless access point for my desktop (as it is in a different room as the cable modem and router), but that didn't cause any problems. It automatically connected first time; I guess the access point is already locked in to the router and the computer just sees it as ethernet.
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| 9 | loki
SuperDude
ID: 4211201420
Sun, Mar 18, 2007, 14:30
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I just got off the telephone with a Dell supervisor. Apparently Dell does not have a wireless driver compatible with Vista and yet Dell sold me the machine equipped with a wireless card. Dell cannot resolve the problem of no drivers available for wireless cards, blue tooth, and wireless printer adapters even though they sold me a computer with all of these devices. They therefore agreed to let me return the computer with no shipping charges. I spent hours on the telephone with Dell and with Verizon. Never again--on to a MAC,
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| 10 | Tree
ID: 332181813
Sun, Mar 18, 2007, 15:25
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loki -
honestly, based on psot 9, you should be pleased with how Dell handled this, and not upset.
they appear to have handled it professionally, and the right way.
yes, they sold you set of equipment for which no drivers exist. you, however, bought it, and i'm a firm believe in "let the buyer beware," and anytime you make a purchase - especially a semi-major one like a computer, you should do extensive research.
that being said, i doubt there is much information out there currently on the incompatability issue, so there may have been no way of knowing.
seems to me that Dell attempted to solve a problem to which there is no solution, spending an incredible amount of time on the phone with you in the process. but they gave it their damnedest, and it's hardly Dell's fault that MICROSOFT does not have the drivers ready, which, by the way, is not exactly an uncommon problem when a new OS is introduced.
Dell did you right, however, by allowing you to return the computer, and waive their customery shipping charges.
to me - even if you did spend several hours on the phone with them - Dell ultimately did the right thing, and their customer service department came through with flying colors.
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| 11 | Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Mar 18, 2007, 15:50
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Tree: Reading about loki's situation I come to a conclusion on a few things. First, if someone has any knowledge of how past Microsoft OS launches have gone, they ought to stay away from said launch as if it were a rabid grizzly bear. I recently purchased an HP laptop and I refused to have the free option of a Vista upgrade. I'm sticking with XP. I would never change to another Microsoft OS unless if they were already on Service Pack 1 or 2. I hear too many stories like loki's to do anything else.
Yet, Dell is obligated to sell a product that works. As a consumer, loki has every right to be infuriated and I imagine you would be as well. The time investment he put into it was necessary to fix the problem but completely inexcusable by Dell.
Doesn't this clearly show that Dell does no QC-ing on their products? Dell sold him the machine with the wireless card and the other devices. Don't they at least boot up the machine after they assemble it to give it a good once over? Apparently not. I wouldn't want my money associated with a company that half assed and lazy.
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| 12 | Tree
ID: 332181813
Sun, Mar 18, 2007, 15:55
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Yet, Dell is obligated to sell a product that works.
Dell did sell a product that works. there is nothing that Loki says that indicates any of the hardware - which Dell sells - was defective.
the issue is with the OS - the software - which is not manufactured by Dell.
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| 13 | Perm Dude
ID: 3326187
Sun, Mar 18, 2007, 16:17
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That's like buying a car with lights that don't work, and blaming the light manufacturer.
Anything that comes in that Dell box they are responsible for it working when you get it.
Dell's custormer service sucks. And if you are late with paying a bill they will pounce. I once mailed a check about 3 days late and got a call from a beligerant Indian, demanding to know when I paid it, the check number, and the amount of the check (I'd already mailed it). I told him not to call me again, and he just got furious on the phone.
If you tell a debt collector not to call you, they are not permitted to call you again according to the Credit & Reporting Act. But their response:
[heavily accepted Indian]"What are you, a Senator??[/heavily accented Indian].
Oh, and they jacked my interest rate up from 4% to 21.5%. Dicks.
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| 14 | rockafellerskank
ID: 450122417
Sun, Mar 18, 2007, 16:58
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I just bought a new Dell laptop. I specifically got Windows XP (home edition) as my company will not even support Vista (I have a few company applications on my personal machine). I've heard nothing but nightmares.
I'm really only replying to clarify something PD posted in #13.
First of all, I agree with you that you shouldn't have gotten a call and it certainly should have been handled better. But that Indian gentlemen didn't decide to call you -- a computer (per Dell parameters) decided you need to be called and IT dialed you and hooked you up to him! He was only doing his job (following orders). Of course, he should have been more professional.
Secondly, it's the FDCPA (Fair Debt Collection Practices Act) you are referring to-- I think. It DOES govern debt collectors when they work for a collection agency. In this case, unless Dell sent you to a collection agency, they can call you all they want (under FDCPA). If Dell still "own" the paper, they are not required to abide by that law as it regulates colelction agencies--- not first party creditors. However, if they call to the point of harassment, they may be violating certain FTC laws, but ignoring a single do not call me request wouldn't meet the definition of harrassment (IMO). Finally, a cease and desist to a collection agency has to be in writing to be valid. FDCPA was meant to set the rules for debt colelcting. if we have to abide by them, the consumers have to as well.
It would be no different if I sold PD a car and he paid late, I could call him (as the note holder) and I'm not subject to the cease and desist clause.
Just felt like clearing that up as I have worked for a colelction agency for 10+ years and there are too many misunderstandings out there in the public---- and, unfortunately, too many bad debt colectors.
Carry on... :)
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| 15 | Perm Dude
ID: 3326187
Sun, Mar 18, 2007, 17:07
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he should have been more professional...
If he'd started out professional, it would have been the first time.
I'm not going to argue about the law (I believe when Dell outsourced its debt collection to India, the Indian companies became "debt collectors" as devined in VIII), I'm simply reporting on the customer service (which was my point, of course). Being rude to customers, yelling at them, and talking back is a piss-poor way to run a company, particularly one done remotely (i.e., all personal contact is through the phone).
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| 16 | R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Sun, Mar 18, 2007, 17:18
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I'll second the sentiment of culpability on Dell's part. Their decision to sell Vista products with no means of supporting them is easily their fault. Ditto for the Future Shop's who are selling new desktops to consumers with Vista as the OS. XP should still be the default OS installed, with instructions for a free Vista upgrade shipped with the product.
Microsoft does have issues with Vista and needs to fix them (and get other companies to do their part driver-wise). But this is not exactly an uncommon issue with new OS releases, and both Dell and Future Shop (and any other company being this stupid) should have easily anticipated this and devised a reasonable strategy. Dell's focus is on making things easier for the customer. Making them do hours of homework to learn about Vista's shortcomings is hardly making things easy. Imagine someone buying their first computer dealing with this mess! Way to please your new customer... lol
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| 17 | loki
SuperDude
ID: 4211201420
Sun, Mar 18, 2007, 17:58
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Tree-Honestly, in the real world when one makes a purchase from a reputable company(whether a computer, automobile or tee shirt), one should expect delivery of a product that should, barring an unforeseen manufacturing defect, work well. It took over 10 hours on the telephone with Dell(not to mention additional hours with Verizon) to determine that the computer would never fully function as sold at this time. Do you really expect a consumer to be able to find out that the drivers were not supported when the Dell techs did not even know? No amount of research would have revealed this. Dell is obligated to NOT sell a product that cannot do what the sales person said it was capable of doing. Dell should not have wasted my time trying to solve an insoluble problem; the techs should have known this immediately.
At this point in time I am deciding between buying a PC from Gateway with XP and upgrading to Vista in about a year or buying a MAC.
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| 18 | Tree
ID: 302171817
Sun, Mar 18, 2007, 19:29
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Their decision to sell Vista products with no means of supporting them is easily their fault. Ditto for the Future Shop's who are selling new desktops to consumers with Vista as the OS. XP should still be the default OS installed, with instructions for a free Vista upgrade shipped with the product.
i can't argue with that. in fact, when i bought my previous computer, it's when XP was just coming out, so it came with ME installed (blech) and the XP upgrade shipped with.
Do you really expect a consumer to be able to find out that the drivers were not supported when the Dell techs did not even know?
no. and i said that. it is entirely possible that Dell was also not aware of the problem at first.
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| 19 | R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Sun, Mar 18, 2007, 22:21
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Dell is obligated
Well... they aren't really obligated to do anything. ;) I just think their rep (which they've spent millions building up) is going to take a huge hit before Vista is finally fully ready. They didn't do their homework on this one and alot of customers are bound to get pissed.
no. and i said that. it is entirely possible that Dell was also not aware of the problem at first.
Probably not. Not knowing though is rather weak for a company SELLING COMPUTERS. ;)
As a final nail in the coffin, Vista is supposedly very easy to upgrade to from XP. Going ME -> XP was often a headache, and a full format was recommended. The XP -> Vista route is just fine without a format. Pop it in, install, and voila...
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| 20 | loki
SuperDude
ID: 4211201420
Sun, Mar 18, 2007, 23:47
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A Dell supervisor called me back. He told me that if I exchanged the computer for one with the correct cards( apparently Dell has shipped machines with correct and incorrect cards), Dell would give me $75 rebate for my troubles. He really was serious.
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| 21 | Punk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Mon, Mar 19, 2007, 00:04
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PD isn't that what everyone does if you make a late payment, or at least CC company's.
Loki sounds like a big problem, but I wouldn't say that is fully Dell's problem. Now where ever everyone on here works, does everyone in your business know exactly everything about everything that goes on with your business. I can understand with a new product they might not know all the answer, (not saying 10 hours on the phone is acceptable). But when people call out company's for issues like this, to me it's kind of being an ass. Then again i've always been the one to think of things from both sides, I'm going to guarentee that the person on the other side of the phone wasn't trying to blow smoke up you're ass the entire time on the phone. I've talked to Dell multiple times to get issues fixed, some people won't know, some people will. That's just life.
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| 22 | Boxman
ID: 211139621
Mon, Mar 19, 2007, 06:36
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loki: A Dell supervisor called me back. He told me that if I exchanged the computer for one with the correct cards( apparently Dell has shipped machines with correct and incorrect cards), Dell would give me $75 rebate for my troubles. He really was serious.
I personally wouldn't do it. The reason being is because if something goes wrong this time, you've got no one to blame but yourself and you should've known better by now. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Punk42AE: Now where ever everyone on here works, does everyone in your business know exactly everything about everything that goes on with your business.
I absolutely see your point and the answer to your question is no. What troubled me about loki's situation was that this was something that could have been easily detected / solved before it even got to him. If the cards weren't Vista compatable, then that would have shown up in a QC test.
What I'm reading into loki's situation is that Dell must not even boot up their PCs one time to see if everything is in order. That's like an auto manufacturer being too lazy to turn the key on the car to see if it starts.
That amount of sloth is intolerable.
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| 23 | Tree
ID: 46215194
Mon, Mar 19, 2007, 06:43
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A Dell supervisor called me back. He told me that if I exchanged the computer for one with the correct cards( apparently Dell has shipped machines with correct and incorrect cards), Dell would give me $75 rebate for my troubles. He really was serious.
while that's good customer service (although, they could have doubles that discount imho), that does indicate a QC problem on Dell's part.
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| 24 | R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Mon, Mar 19, 2007, 22:40
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But when people call out company's for issues like this, to me it's kind of being an ass. Then again i've always been the one to think of things from both sides, I'm going to guarentee that the person on the other side of the phone wasn't trying to blow smoke up you're ass the entire time on the phone. I've talked to Dell multiple times to get issues fixed, some people won't know, some people will. That's just life.
Well there's two issues in your post.
1) Dell's customer support did the best they could. (I would agree)
2) Dell, as a company, was not (or was only partially) responsible for selling products with Vista installed.
I disagree with your point on #2. This isn't a small software they installed for free that doesn't work properly. This is a main component of their main product. This is the engine of their car. The legs of their table. The speakers of their stereo. You don't change a car's engine unless you've ensured its going to work. Consumers won't accept Ford saying "we didn't know the engine was made of applesauce." And I don't accept Dell not knowing that Vista would affect the computers they sell. They have "Dell recommends Windows Vista™ Home Premium." on their PC page. If you're going to recommend it, it has to work properly with the parts you're shipping it with.
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| 25 | loki
SuperDude
ID: 4211201420
Mon, Mar 19, 2007, 23:21
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After all is said and done, Dell is just another monolithic company that purports to have the consumer's interest at heart, but in reality has too many bureaucratic layers to solve the problems or even care about the problems of the customer it has screwed. I will return the computer, after many hours on the phone Dell will pay the shipping, and I will buy another computer elsewhere. The end.
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| 26 | xpdurmind
ID: 572381613
Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 00:27
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loki, I totally feel your frustration: I waited 1 month for my computer. I would be pi$$ed if I had to wait 2-3 weeks for a problem they created. I would've asked the supervisor for at least 15%, if not more, of what I paid...If you make enough noise they'll give it to you.
Your previous experience with Dell was a good one, but from what I read, their support has changed dramatically and apparently their product quality.
There will be a lot of software and hardware compatibility issues-As advertised-
Vista has a program compatibility wizard that might help.
You can download a copy of virtual pc 2007 from the microsoft website for free. I've installed win 2000 and win xp. I'm running some older programs on it. your card drivers will probably work. It's great. it has drag and drop capability between the host OS and the virtual OS. You can access the internet from your cards and your dvd/cd/floppy drives. It goes way beyond that if you turn on hardware virtualization on in the Virtual device if your hardware supports it. (as simple as changing a setting in the bios)
I'm really enjoying my vista experience so far. I got wireless with my desktop no problems so far. My 3rd hp comp. The trick with hp is to get a configured to order pc. They're cheaper than what I've seen out there (paid 2k with no monitor. Dell was about 3k for a similarly configured pc) Macs aren't the only thing out there. You'd have to get a new set of software.
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| 27 | R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 00:44
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When its all said and done, I expect I'll love Vista at some point. Wether that is May, August or 2008 is still unknown...
I still think the best thing to do is build your own PC. Its gotten a ton easier, but I can understand that the thought of it can still be a headache for someone who's never done it.
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| 28 | loki
SuperDude
ID: 4211201420
Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 09:50
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Is it a good decision to buy a PC with XP and upgrade to Vista in 6 to 12 months? Or should I get another Vista machine realizing that most of the new computers from Dell and other vendors will not have the issues that I have had? What is the downside of buying an XP computer(assuming that they are still available) and upgrading to Vista later on?
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| 29 | GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 060151121
Tue, Mar 20, 2007, 11:13
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If it was me, I would get XP and then upgrade later.
And the 6 to 12 month window is probably good.
Look for when Service Pack 2 has been released.
And ditto what R9 said.
I am sure at some point I'll be very happy with Vista, just not right now.
Cliff
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| 30 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Mar 22, 2007, 10:26
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As others have said above...never ever NEVER, buy on OS when it is immediately released. Driver incompatabilities, are virtually a given. Just think of all the devices, requiring drivers, now make ALL of those drivers immediately obsolete and then add in Micrshafts stellar reputation in the realm of info sharing so that new drivers can be compiled. Oh-oh...driver incompatabilities and conflicts? IMHO, it takes an easy year to figure out how to not only get this graphics card to work with the new OS, but to do so w/o conflicting with the soundcard, printer, wireless, mouse, etc etc etc.
Way back when, I was building and selling PCs out of my garage. On my own machines, I didnt switch over to Win95, until after Win98 had come out.
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| 31 | walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Thu, Mar 22, 2007, 12:18
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Wow, what an interesting thread. Selfishly, I am concluding that my next purchase will be a Mac. My PC buddies who went there are soooo happy, and Soxzeitgeist is, too, and Dell (my only PC seller) is getting more and more difficult to deal with (looong hold times, less seamless service). I am sorry, loki, that you went through this, and I do agree with you and PD and others that Dell should not sell a product that is incompatible with the software. That's their job, to test and then sell a product that should work out of the box, seamlessly. And, I place a great emphasis on the amount of time required to try and fix these probs. 10 hours on your part is a huge chunk of time IMO. With two kids, I just would not have that kinda time, period. I'd have to had given up and returned it if it were me, too, before your patience ran out.
- walk
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| 32 | boikin
ID: 59831214
Thu, Mar 22, 2007, 12:25
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nice piont sarge, though i think you might not need to wait till the next OS is out before you get the old one.
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| 33 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Mar 22, 2007, 12:29
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I happened to like my old DOS. It required the user to know something about the computer or it intimadted folks from poking aorund with sys settings. Winblows came in, made it too easy for morons to muck-up the system.
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| 34 | R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Thu, Mar 22, 2007, 12:32
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Re: 28, I'd try to find someone selling an XP computer that comes with a free upgrade to Vista. My laptop did when I got it at Xmas. Don't know if deals like that are still around, but kills two cpu cycles with one stick of ram...
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| 35 | R9
Leader
ID: 02624472
Thu, Mar 22, 2007, 12:33
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I liked DOS too sarge. You had to know how everything worked! When I switched to Win95 I hated how when something didn't work, it just didn't work. Since you weren't the one to input the commands you had no idea where something had gone wrong...
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| 36 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Mar 22, 2007, 12:37
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Oh no...I knew PRECISELY where things went wrong:
Redmond, WA.
:(
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