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Subject: RotoGuru - The Next Generation Posted by: Guru - [330592710] Thu, Mar 01, 14:50 First, I want to sincerely thank everyone who responded favorably to my voluntary payment poll. Based on the results, here are my next thoughts:
While the latter might be a better long term business model, it would impose some significant administrative burdens, and would also be much more difficult to appropriately "calibrate". The voluntary payment approach is less intrusive for both users and for me, and could be implemented relatively quickly. It also would not rule out a subsequent shift to some premium "pay-for-service" model. But to take that step immediately risks making some damaging decisions that might prove difficult to undo. Incremental steps would seem to be more prudent. So what should be the privileges of GuruPatronage? Without fully comprehending all of the programming/administrative implications, I think I'd like to suggest these:
I do plan to use PayPal as the primary online cash transfer mechanism. You can register for a PayPal account for free, and then use it to transfer cash payments, funded either via credit card or bank account. (If you do register for a new account at PayPal, please list "davehall@home.com" as the referring member.) For those who cannot use PayPal, a PO Box will be established for mail-in contributions. I'm not looking for payments just yet. I still have some logistics to establish and test, and I'm still looking for feedback. As I said, this may not be the best long term solution. But it is the simplest to implement on short notice, and should allow me to continue to produce the site without incurring any significant out-of-pocket losses, at least until a better approach emerges. Your turn. One more opportunity for feedback before implementation. | ||||||
| 1 | Pond Scum ID: 54420321 Thu, Mar 01, 15:05 |
Sounds like a plan. Another idea (if feasible) would be to have gentle reminders to non-patrons only that would be presented from time to time like ads. I think these would be most effective if a level of usage were to trigger the prompt to remind people how much value they are getting (rather than have the prompts show up randomly or continually). I know you were able to turn off ads if clicks had occurred within a day, I don't know if this functionality can be "turned around". As I said before, I believe a premium service approach will eventually be required, starting with a low fee is a way to incrementally move forward reducing the risk of "overshooting". Good luck! | |||||
| 2 | Sludge ID: 1440310 Thu, Mar 01, 15:05 |
Sounds good to me. I would hope, though, that enough of us are willing to donate at a level that allows you to keep everything running while keeping all areas of the site open. | |||||
| 3 | G Dogg ID: 13631420 Thu, Mar 01, 15:06 | As much as I like this idea, some of us would like to pay, but just don't have the funds. I understand the thinking behind not allowing these types of players (like myself) to be in the gurupie standings, but I think it is wrong. We have lots of long-time younger gurupies that will have to ask mommy and daddy to pony up just so that they will be allowed to be in the standings and that is just not right IMO. Allowing only those that are GuruPatrons to be in the standings is truly elitist. Some people really do not have the funds to pay, although they would like to. I love the rest of the ideas, but I think it sucks that anyone that doesn't have the cash to pay for the site won't be allowed into the standings even though they may be the longest and most faithful gurupies, while some guy who likes to use the site and has just recently become a gurupie can buy his way into the standings. I think this is unfair and wrong. For the record, I would pay when I would be able to, but that may keep me and others like me oot of the standings and leave us oot in the cold feeling like we aren't true gurupies because we don't have the green in the bank account at the moment. I think this would suck and would be discouraging. | |||||
| 4 | Perm Dude ID: 28059111 Thu, Mar 01, 15:11 |
Good start, Guru. I think you're right on track with how you have parcelled out the immediate vs long-term possibilties. I like all the ideas except the limitation on non-subscriber posting. I think we get people to donate by letting them talk themselves into it. I'll register at PayPal today. Glad to throw that your way, too. pd | |||||
| 5 | beastiemiked ID: 5037210 Thu, Mar 01, 15:17 | I agree with PD, all the ideas sound good except for the limited posting for non-subscribers. It reminds me of the "select" football forum, and we know how much controversy that caused. | |||||
| 6 | BIG RUSS ID: 117493013 Thu, Mar 01, 15:19 |
I think GuruPatrons should be pronounced "Dee-Greds" :-) *snicker* | |||||
| 7 | Astade ID: 281036223 Thu, Mar 01, 15:23 |
Guru, I think you have it down! Get the 'donations' give the donors some perk (ie automatically in the Gurupie Standings) and leave it at that. Sometimes simplicity is the way to go. Also, this way you don't get caught up in a web of restrictions for non-donors if for some reason you change your mind down the road...So, yeah, it sounds great. Let us know when we can make it happen | |||||
| 8 | Z ID: 13439719 Thu, Mar 01, 15:25 |
Ok, I like the ideas Guru. I just have a few questions. How would a high-school student, like me, go about paying? Do we do this online, (real) mail, or what? I heard a few mentions of Pay-Pal, but what exactly is that? I would be more than willing to help you out with this site because I love it, but do to money-concerns, I may not be able to give much. I need to save every penny for college (I'm sure you all know how it is!) so I'd be willing to give something like 5 bucks a month, but if that's too little I understand. Any input would be appreciated, thanks... -Z- | |||||
| 9 | James K Polk ID: 114581215 Thu, Mar 01, 15:27 |
Guru -- I don't have any experience with PayPal to know how much stock to put in this Salon article, but it might be at least worth consideration before you start relying on it for transactions. Aside from that, I agree with PD and beastie in hoping to avoid limited posting for nonpatrons. G Dogg -- after being in the gurupie standings for last baseball and basketball seasons, I did not submit my team for inclusion this year (knew I would be preoccupied during the early season). Anyway, not having my team included this year has not made me feel any less of a gurupie, and I don't think anyone's treated me any differently than they ever have. It's still very easy for me to see where I'd rank, and the "gurupie" feeling, IMHO, comes much more from the conversations on the message board than from having a team in the standings. | |||||
| 10 | Perm Dude ID: 28059111 Thu, Mar 01, 15:29 | ROFL, Big Russ! | |||||
| 11 | KM ID: 4882237 Thu, Mar 01, 15:34 | Some sort of recognition is greatly needed for those who pay, but those who can't pay really shouldn't be deprived of any resources. I'm just not comfortable with turning some parts of the site into effectively "you must be 18" to do this, since most teenagers have no credit-cards or dispensible cash. | |||||
| 12 | G Dogg ID: 13631420 Thu, Mar 01, 15:36 | Mr. President, I understand that, but you CHOSE to not be in the gurupie standings. Being excluded from this will give a much different feeling than you had. You didn't want to be in and weren't in it. Part of the fun for many of us is climbing the gurupie standings list. Those are the true rankings for many here, and I think it would cause a little alienation. You must agree that choosing to not be included and being excluded are 2 completely different situations and have different affects on the psyche and feel. If one wants to be included, they should not be excluded because of monetary problems. That is really weak IMO. Your situation was different than what is described here. | |||||
| 13 | biliruben ID: 3502218 Thu, Mar 01, 15:37 |
I like the idea, except for the idea that we should be putting restrictions on non-patrons. I just don't think this is a good business model - I think it will likely decrease usership in the long run. Putting a gold star, a red star and a blue star next to a name, depending on level of sponsership, will be more than enough, imho, to stimulate donations. Also, I think contributions to the community, such as madman's analyist programs or spreadsheets, could be used as a replacement for actual donations, depending on how much you assess their value. This would allow some of the cash-strapped folks to "work off" their donations and increase value to the community in one. | |||||
| 14 | Sludge ID: 1440310 Thu, Mar 01, 15:44 |
How about not automatically excluding people from the rankings? Automatically include those who donated at a certain level. The rest are chosen by a lottery. You get 1 "ticket" automatically, even if you have never donated. You get an additional "ticket" for every dollar you have donated in the past 12 months, so that you get some kind of advantage for at least donating something. Rank the entries so that when someone comes along who has donated at the automatic entry level, the person last on the list gets bumped. Hell, it might even encourage donations. Someone gets lucky and gets in the rankings, but are near the bottom. To secure their place, they might actually donate. May be a crazy idea, but it's an idea I thought I'd throw out there. | |||||
| 15 | The Bandwagon ID: 501272618 Thu, Mar 01, 15:48 |
I agree with GDogg. While I'm willing to pay for the great services, I will not be at the patron level and thus will not be listed in the standings. I really don't like that thought, but I'm doing this for fun, and I am mostly a seasonal user of the site (hoops). About the only things I use is the sched-o-matic and browse the message boards. The sartibles are great, but I rarely use them. | |||||
| 16 | Guru ID: 330592710 Thu, Mar 01, 15:51 |
PayPal is an online payment provider. You can register for a personal account for free, and there are never any fees (as long as your usage is limited). In order to send cash via PayPal, you need to specify the receiver's email address (davehall@home.com), the amount, and the source. The source would either be a credit card charge, or a direct transfer from a bank account, or a mailed-in check. (If you are going to mail a check to PayPal, though, you might as well just mail it to me and eliminate the middleman.) Paypal is offered as a convenient alternative for online cash transfers, eliminating the need for sending checks through the mail. But anyone who prefers to use the mail is welcome to do so. A number of Gurupies already have PayPal accounts, and have used them for online auction payments (in fact, I've done that myself). If you want to consider PayPal and you don't already have an account, you can get more information at www.paypal.com. If you do decide to register, a personal account is sufficient for this purpose. In addition, if you go through several steps, you can earn a $5 bonus. And if you list me as the referring email address when you register, I am eligible to receive a matching $5 bonus as well. For more details, see the terms at the PayPal site. After doing some research on my own, I feel comfortable that PayPal is an appropriate and safe service for this purpose. But you don't need to use PayPal to contribute. Use it only if you're comfortable with it. | |||||
| 17 | JW ID: 58410317 Thu, Mar 01, 15:58 |
Mr. Prez, I wish you wouldn't draw my attention to such scary stuff as that PayPal article. For a "dammed furriner" like myself they have been a godsend in attempting to complete my baseball card collection via ebay. And that is my point - for us non-US Gurupies, Paypal's international status would permit easy payment without recourse to currency transactions. As to the rest, I think the Guru has judged things about right. I'm sure between us we could come up with a clever method of permitting a limited number of financially-embarrassed Gurupies into the standings (if only to avoid that tiresome "elitist" argument that was rehearsed last year). What about an egg-eating contest? | |||||
| 18 | Guru ID: 330592710 Thu, Mar 01, 16:06 |
I guess I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to imply that you had to donate at any certain level (e.g. "Patron") to be listed in the standings. I meant that any contributor, at any level ($1 per year) would be eligible. I'm using the term "GuruPatron" as the generic term for all contributors at any level. The term "Patron" was suggested as the top level - but perhaps I should chose something more unique to eliminate confusion. My thinking on the issue of standings is that anyone - even those in school - can afford to stuff a buck in an envelope. It's not that I'm trying to coax a buck out of all high schoolers - but it is a way to expand the rolls, and encourage widespread participation. Also, since the major rankings have had to be limited anyway, this seemed like a reasonable standard. Perhaps it is unfortunate that some who would like to be listed might be unable to contribute. But it seems equally unfortunate that some who do contribute might be excluded while non-contributors are listed. However, I'm open to reconsidering this issue (that's why I asked for feedback). | |||||
| 19 | G Dogg ID: 13631420 Thu, Mar 01, 16:08 | I don't see why anyone who pays should automatically be included in the standings. That should not be the criteria, IMO. J said it best in the baseball standings for this year. He does the standings and he decides who gets in them. It is his criteria. It is not first come, first serve, but his decision alone. Those that actually do the standings should be the ones who decide, not those with the almighty coin. Automatically allowing those that are GuruPatrons while letting the rest scrape and claw for the crumbs to get in is elitist. Sorry for bringing up the argument, but it is. | |||||
| 20 | Guru ID: 330592710 Thu, Mar 01, 16:11 |
Mr. Pres - I did see that article previously. In my case, I don't think it is particularly relevant. If I were selling goods for delivery, and I were worried about the possibility of delayed chargebacks after the merchandise was delivered, then I might have more concerns. But in this case, if a payment is rescinded, I haven't lost anything. And presumably, if a payment is rescinded, it wasn't legitimate to begin with. In any event, the issues raised in that article would seem to be my risks (as the receiver), and not a risk to the sender. | |||||
| 21 | Guru ID: 330592710 Thu, Mar 01, 16:14 | By the way, I'm certainly open to allowing those Gurupies who volunteer to post the standings to earn "GuruPatron credits" for service above and beyond the call of duty. | |||||
| 22 | allhair allstars ID: 240253011 Thu, Mar 01, 16:23 |
I'm not under the impression that Guru meant that a person would need to be at the "Patron" level in order to be in the standings. Only that they would need to be a "GuruPatron". I interpret a "Patron" as being a subcategory of all existing "GuruPatrons", i.e., those who opted/were able to donate $100+. Anyone (as I understand it) that could pay any amount would merit consideration of inclusion into the standings. I like the standings idea. From a purely personal standpoint, I like the idea that there would be some material benefit to RotoGuru.com as a result of the efforts of those people that run the various standings throughout the various sports. For me, it would make the work even more worthwhile. Sludge, your idea is one after my own heart. If I could have come up with a more complicated idea I surely would have! As it is, I think yours is more messed up than any I could come up with on such short notice. ;) I'm joking here. | |||||
| 23 | allhair allstars ID: 240253011 Thu, Mar 01, 16:24 | Wow. I guess that took me a long time to write...! :P | |||||
| 24 | Madman ID: 146191423 Thu, Mar 01, 16:30 |
Guru A few thoughts, as you would expect :) 1) I like most of the ideas presented in your post and agree with most of the other voices you've heard thus far. 2) I'm a bit confused by the standings issue. If you're going to restrict access to the Team Rankings linked from the home-page, I totally understand that. But my impression (by referring to volunteer resources and such) was that this would be restricted to the standings compiled from spreadsheet programs posted in the standings forums. As someone who's programmed on that gurupie collective project (not as much as J or RSF, however), I'm a bit worried about implementation of the system. It puts an overhead on either the programmers or the operators. Any particular ideas about solving that? Perhaps you could have a list of gurupies that qualify, and we could have a verification download periodicially? At any rate, if these are the actual standings you're talking about, some thought into implementation is warranted. 3) Since you're only requiring a $1 contribution for the standings, perhaps you should make this more broad -- any action that financially helps the site. For example, registering with PayPal gives you $5 if they list you as a referrer. Perhaps that could be used as a substitute for a direct contribution? Or buying a Dell Computer through your advertisers. Etc. I know that makes administration of the system a bit more difficult in all likelihood, but I think the effort for inclusiveness would be worth it. 4) I like the periodic pop-up idea for non-contributors. Or maybe some sort of addition to the page script that shows up (like the ads do now for non-clickers). The key is to have it a rare-enough event to not be annoying. Further, in the spirit of roto-guru, I think it ought to be more informative than a "you're not a contributor" sort of thing. I think it ought to be largely positive in it's message, like "this site is brought to you by viewers like you. Currently, we are experiencing revenue shortfalls (see stats). Would you like to help?" 5) Regarding the standings again, perhaps first priority to contributors. After the season begins, non-contributors can be added? Be careful with naming these groups, BTW. :) 6) Please don't put a tax on post length! :) | |||||
| 25 | Sludge ID: 1440310 Thu, Mar 01, 16:42 |
AA - No more confusing than the NBA draft. :) | |||||
| 26 | KevinL ID: 291351612 Thu, Mar 01, 17:01 | A note on paypal, (for Madman), registering only gives you and the referrer the $5 credit when you actually transfer $100 from your bank or credit card into your paypal account. So this probably doesn't help those who couldn't pay otherwise. | |||||
| 27 | Guru ID: 330592710 Thu, Mar 01, 17:20 |
Madman - I don't think I'm creating an administrative nightmare with the standings issue. First, for those standings that are not "oversubscribed" (Swirve, $500K, LRV, etc.), there would be no need for a limitation. The limitation would only apply to those standings lists that are currently limited. My thinking was that those who have contributed should have priority over those who have not. And since there would be a listing of all contributors (showing the posting names), this shouldn't be too difficult to enforce. Based on the results of the payment poll, 272 people expressed willingness to contribute. If they come through, and all of those contributors want to be listed in the standings, then I think they should have priority over those who are not contributing. That's not elitism. It's just fairness. | |||||
| 28 | G Dogg ID: 13631420 Thu, Mar 01, 17:50 |
I am sorry, but that is elitism, indeed. I would love to give you as much money as you need, but I cannot afford to. In fact, I can't even afford a stinking chalupa right now. Apparently that is a strike against me. Why is this site suddenly so unwilling to show allegiance to those that have shown this site incredible allegiance? Apparently there is no longer a reward for loyalty. It pains me that what constitutes a "contributor" at this site is only going to be those that know how to run spreadsheets and those with the almighty dollar. It pains me that those who have come here diligently every day for years and clicked diligently may be subject to be bought oot by someone who stumbled onto this site last month. And it pains me even more to hear you say that this is fair. It isn't. I may be alone, but it just is wrong. Are people that desperate for recognition of their good deeds that they need to get something oot of giving? Personally, if or when I can contribute to this site, I will not need you to let the everyone else know that I did, in any way, shape or fashion. I will be happy that I gave money to this site to keep it running and that would be good enough for me. It seems like that may not be the consensus. Maybe many people here are those that need to tell the world what they have done. It pains me that people feel this way. I wish I could give to this site and be a "contributor". Hopefully, one day soon I will, but I can assure you, you won't need to call me a GuruPatron or give me a little star by my ID for me to know that I did it. | |||||
| 29 | Perm Dude ID: 331181719 Thu, Mar 01, 17:59 |
Didn't we have this same discussion for the Select Forum? Recognition (or appreciation) for help is not the same as saying that someone acts in order to obtain that recognition (or expects that appreciation). If Guru wants to give out a Gold Star because I slipped him a few bucks, and new users see a significant number of names on the board saying "Contributor" and it piques their interest, great. I'm doing it for the same reason everyone else is, for the board. Tell you what--the next five people who e-mail me, saying that they can't afford to send any money to the site (and there are quite a few) I will cover you guys. No one has to know, and the information will remain private. This is a totally above-the-board offer. I've been lucky enough in my business to help out here and there in small amounts, and it's time to answer the call. pd | |||||
| 30 | Joe ID: 118292918 Thu, Mar 01, 18:05 | I don't know if this is a good idea or not...But maybe you could have some type of delay on the opening of pages for non-contributors, and then make it known that with a contribution, they can avoid the delay... Just a thought... | |||||
| 31 | JKaye ID: 4711592917 Thu, Mar 01, 18:07 | I have no problems with the policy Guru has proposed. Guru puts in so much time and effort into this site, and the fact that it has been free all this time should be considered a gift. Giving $1 a year is not too much to ask considering how much some other things cost in the world. I don't at all think this resembles the select/open forum issue, since Guru is simply trying to maintain the site. | |||||
| 32 | G Dogg ID: 13631420 Thu, Mar 01, 18:46 | I guess my whole point is this, pd. Guru shouldn't give things to those that pay at the expense of the loyal follower. I really don't think Guru has to do anything extra for those people that pay (and I am sure I will pay something), because from my point of view, he already has. It would be quite sad if some of you don't realize this. | |||||
| 33 | Madman ID: 146191423 Thu, Mar 01, 18:54 |
Guru I didn't mean to imply that it would be a nightmare. I only meant to suggest that I was unclear about how it was going to be implemented. I agree with the idea in principle, but I am uncomfortable with asking volunteers to make determinations about inclusion or exclusion based on a financial donation to the site. (as I understand it, you are thinking that the standings operator will look at the star next to the name of the poster in the TeamID collection thread). What if there is a mistake? Delay in PayPal payment? Confusion that results in a late entry? Who's the judge in all these cases? All of this is unclear to me. These things would either get sent your way eventually, or perhaps just cause hard feelings and make people skulk away. As a potential alternative, could you design a TeamID registration page? The standings spreadsheets could then key off a text file for the IDs. This sort of solution would then give you flexibility in determining the manner in which an ID qualifies, and would take the burden of exclusion away from us. Amazingly, it would even lighten the administrative burden of the spreadsheet operator, and it would simultaneously lighten some of the forum ID-posting threads. Seems like a win-win-win. But not trying to force that one solution (if, indeed, there is a "problem"). Finally, I'd like to point out I don't think anything in the various suggested alternatives smacks of 'elitism'. The fact of the matter is that we all use resources. The idea is that we should share in the burden of paying for those resources. Unfortunately, this is much harder for some than others. But the Guru's plan doesn't require any significant burden from anyone. Ironically, the idea that we should have the right to freely use the resources of others is an idea that I find to be somewhat elitist. I'm not saying this to offend anyone -- just to point out that there are many ways of looking at an issue. The Guru clearly values the contributions of everyone, but there are practical problems that simply have to be overcome. | |||||
| 34 | Perm Dude ID: 331181719 Thu, Mar 01, 18:58 |
I understand your point, buddy. But in your zero-sum argument, someone has to lose in order for someone to win, and that isn't necessarily so. Contribution status as one of the factors that is used in compiling (and adding to) the standings seems perfectly reasonable. pd | |||||
| 35 | G Dogg ID: 13631420 Thu, Mar 01, 19:05 | We all contribute in some way to this site, though, don't we PD? Withoot the community, this site ceases being what it is today. Let's not forget those "contributors". | |||||
| 36 | Perm Dude ID: 331181719 Thu, Mar 01, 19:12 |
Nobody is forgetting about it! What if there is a donor who no one has heard of, never posts, and suddenly pops up asking to be put in the standings? While it's great that they gave some cash, the fact that no one has heard of them (ie, they aren't yet part of the community) will probably preclude their being in the standings that time around. Their non-monetary contributions would weigh more, in other words, which is as it probably should be. Like Madman said, Guru's just looking at overcoming some practical problems here, not making value judgements. pd | |||||
| 37 | Baldwin ID: 25440222 Thu, Mar 01, 21:24 |
Having had to go to college without family support and having had my electricity turned off, days away from being homeless once actually, my heart really goes out to these college student/gurupies. I urge a student discount be adopted. On other fronts I wonder just how many standing lists are really restricted. All I really can think of is the baseball standings. All the other ones are of a managable size. | |||||
| 38 | allhair allstars ID: 37059277 Thu, Mar 01, 23:05 |
Baldwin, Not to sound whiney, but have you seen the Hoops Waiting Room lately? I didn't initially set a team limit and it's been a nightmare ever since. I had hoped to keep it around 200 but it quickly ran up to about 275. Since then I've dropped a bunch of inactive teams and added over 30 or so. J's proactive step to set things at 200 is a move borne of necessity. Also, remember that last year there were 500 teams in the baseball standings (broken down to Majors and AAA posts). I think his setting that limit speaks volumes. IIRC, J set a limit on the current hockey standings, and I established limits for MSG and golf. Golf is pretty small, and MSG is only 125 teams, but the management issues dealing with unlimited numbers of teams is increasingly unacceptable. Is the answer as simple as finding people willing to run huge standings downloads? Doubtful. Am I a bit whiney? Probably. | |||||
| 39 | Slackjawed Yokel ID: 151152123 Thu, Mar 01, 23:31 |
I think the plan you've outlined, Guru, is a good one. Perhaps the extent to which you need to identify those who do or do not contribute may work itself out. I agree that if restrictions need to be imposed, that they should be implemented gradually. It could very well turn out that those Gurupies who are able to contribute will more than offset your costs. This should prove itself the sooner everything is setup with PayPal. This would enable you to avoid having to deal with advertisers (and us having to as well, in fact that ad above this window is giving me a headache). Maybe a first step would be to have banner messages (not ads) just stating that this site continues to exist because of the support - both financial and knowledge-based - of its members. An idea might be to put contributors' names in the banner such as 'This site brought to you by Slackjawed Yokel and XXX Guru Jr.' I guess my point is that I'm more than willing to fork up some cash each month and I'm not the only one. And this method of support seems much more direct and appropriate considering the 'communal' nature of this site than having to rely on ad revenues. | |||||
| 40 | swami ID: 477472711 Fri, Mar 02, 00:59 | Sounds great. I'm on the side of keeping everything available to everyone right now and keeping it that way as long as possible. Guru merchandise goes out depending on how much you donate. $100 a year gets a shirt, $50 a year gets a mug, etc... Labels on the boards showing who donates is another thing I like. Just let me know where to send the cash! | |||||
| 41 | The Israelian Guru ID: 36913515 Fri, Mar 02, 04:10 |
Some fine ideas but tell me please, me as a few more members here are non US customers, and Im not really depending on the net in intrernational cerdit payment, not that I have problems paying for this site (I think you should have started it about 2 years ago), the qustion is how can I deliver the money to you? ;-) | |||||
| 42 | hoops boy ID: 16937178 Fri, Mar 02, 09:09 |
I don't see how using "contributor status" as a tie breaker is any more elitist than allowing whomever is maintaining the standings to arbitrarily decide who gets in on the list (essentially its a different kind of elitism, but one that takes into account the costs to Dave and the community as a whole the standings impose) I understand peoples desire to not be one of those excluded, however there are still many people who do get excluded, so to pretend there isn't a current problem is not realistic. (For the record, I have been with rotoguru.com from the beginning, could probably get myself included in any standings list, and have never been on any standings list until my midseason hockey lrv team this year) No one likes to discriminate (well, most of us here don't) and especially not for monetary reasons, but there is an honest reality that without some form of funding this site will eventually go away, so whatever methods Dave wants to use to obtain that funding I think we should be supportive of, and if you can't support them, at the least offer some alternatives. | |||||
| 43 | HooeyPooey ID: 41115208 Fri, Mar 02, 09:24 |
Just think, no cost or restrictions on the valuable insight and resources this site provides, and the option of being in the standings for just $1 a year. Or we could just go with the other alternative: subscription fee based site. | |||||
| 44 | Richard ID: 58435323 Fri, Mar 02, 09:34 |
As one who has used (and contributed to) this community of fantasy sports folks, I want to support Guru and his efforts to continue this site. The message boards and the information found here adds so much to my enjoyment of fantasy sports. For that I'm forever grateful for this community in general and for Guru in specific. Thanks, Guru. I do not like elitism and ,Guru, I would encourage you to take an approach that minimizes the generation of any elitism feelings and tries to make everyone feel welcome. My only concrete suggestion to an inclusive approach, but yet an approach that rewards those who contibute to the financial needs of your opperation, is to suggest that you simply add an extra line to the header information for each poster who has contributed. The header line could go just below the user name and above the ID and date/time stamp and would be just a one-liner title that identifies the level of support (donor, sustainer, patron) the person has given. You outlined this option in your initial post and, I for one, would find this minimal level of recognition fully adequate reward for my financial support. I strongly suggest, that you leave it at that and don't restrict the opportunites of participants based on the level, or lack thereof, of financial support. Thanks again, Guru, for increasing my enjoyment of on-line fantasy sports. Richard | |||||
| 45 | VIDevilRays ID: 0502611 Fri, Mar 02, 10:42 |
Guru-you have a wonderful community here. I have met through this site-both in cyberspace and in person-some wonderful people that I consider good friends. I anticipate meeting many more. And I will contribute to this site financially, because I have gotten a lot out of it and, hopefully, have contributed to it in some small way. Your site has become as important to me as my cup of coffee. I am not a "businessman", so please take my opinion with a grain of salt. But perhaps an alternative would be to keep everything free and placing a "contributor's roll call" or something like that, highlighting those who have contributed (or feel the need to let everyone know they have contributed:)? I guess this is similar to Richard's approach. I would hope that this approach would allow a continuing flow of new gurupies who, when financially able, would continue to support your site when they also feel, as I do, that you are as important to them as that cup of coffee. Good luck, and you have my support. | |||||
| 46 | ClevelandRocks ID: 49217211 Fri, Mar 02, 11:49 |
Gdogg.... At first I completely agreed with you but only because I misinterpreted Guru's plan. I thought he was saying i had to contribute 100 bucks a year to get into the standings. but dave meant ANY contributiion in a year- even 1 buck will get you into the standings. This is not alot to ask. I'm a student and financially strapped,( especially now since i'm filing a fraud claim on ebay where i got taken for 700 bucks on a new computer- and i needed that comp for school) but anyway.. i know i can swing a 20 spot for a whole year. I doubt that anyone here is so financially strapped that they cant afford 1 dollar a year to contribute to this site. | |||||
| 47 | G Dogg ID: 13631420 Fri, Mar 02, 13:54 | I did the same thing CR, but I still stand by original sentiments. I think Richard's plan is the best plan. I do plan on giving something, so I wasn't arguing just for myself. I just don't think that you should be specially included in anything because you are able to give. Some of the younger guys really can't pay anything, and I have heard that concern voiced. By excluding on the basis of ability to pay is still wrong, however minimal. I encourage everyone to pay because I want this site to keep going as much if not more than anyone. I will probably take some pennies to the corner liquor store get cash, and attempt to illegally send cash to Dave. My main point is that I really wouldn't want to see those that truly can't pay anything get left oot, especially those that have been devoted to this site. I like Richard's plan, which is actually Guru's. This way, no one gets left oot and for those that really need to be ootwardly thanked (personally, I think the fact that Guru has created such a magnificent site is thanks enough and that is what we are giving the cash for), can have that desire and thirst satisfied. | |||||
| 48 | Stuck in the Sixties ID: 622215 Fri, Mar 02, 15:29 |
I'm not sure whether this post belongs here or not, but here goes anyway: I've seen a lot of discussion about the potential business failure of SW. If they go under, what are the implications for the future of this site? | |||||
| 49 | StLCards ID: 3505622 Fri, Mar 02, 20:09 |
Well, it took a few brewskies before I decide to weigh in but here goes. I was actually waiting for walk to put his $.02 in since I respect his opinion highly. walk = "fair play" in my book. Richard is also one who's opinion I hold in high esteem and I tend to agree with his sentiments. Keep the site open to all with full access priveleges. Who knows who will be the next gurupie to become legendary on these boards? Keep the new blood coming I say, which is what you seem to be aiming for as well. As far as recognition for contributors I feel no overwhelming desire to be recognized or not. A simple link to a page listing the contributors would suffice. Stars, labels, etc on every post that say I donated don't do a thing for me. Everyone has a different ability to "donate". The main point is to keep the site open. To that end a recognition of contributors will definitely help generate donations IMO. I would suggest a "friends of RotoGuru.com" page listing the contributors, maybe broken down by level of giving. The bottom line is that you have a great site and we all appreciate you keeping it active. When I started playing fantasy sports I was just a casual user. After finding your site, I am now a "gurupie". Sorry to place such a high burden on your resources, but I can't help it. In my opinion the site is all about the interactions I get with other "gurupies" and has nothing to do with whether or not I am listed in the standings. Thanks again Guru for providing this site and allowing me to enjoy myself. p.s. college students, you can always sell plasma and cut down on the alcohol consumption ;-) | |||||
| 50 | Pond Scum ID: 54420321 Sun, Mar 04, 06:44 |
Here’s a bit of a different variation from the above suggestions. Call it the GBH model in honor of our local PBS station. WGBH runs occasional events during “push” periods where they aggressively collect funds for their budget. For them, it is an auction. It has a couple of interesting features. First, everybody gets something valuable for their effort. Local merchants and individuals donate goods and services get publicity, a chance to tastefully merchandise themselves, and probably a set of near “winners” who can directly purchase the product or service since they didn’t get it through the auction. The bidders get goods for their money along with some limited recognition. And the station gets MUCHO DINERO. Second, the fund-raising period is short and intense, the rest of the year is all about offering the full service free to all. For this site, the analog might be two or three special game events, keyed to the most intense interest in the most popular sports, that would be offered for-fee along with ancillary opportunities for purchases and donations keyed to all budgets. These periods might be during pre-season drafts (when we’re all excited), all star breaks (fill in the void), or playoffs (when we want one more crack at it now we really understand the sport). The events would be heavily pushed at the site, including the setting of targets (“We need 40 more participants to finish this campaign”). Participants at various levels would still get recognition during the year. Beyond that, participants in the game events would get what we like most, a competitive fantasy sports experience. Winners might get something more prominent than HOF enshrinement (how about the KB8ers Assimilator?). Having seasonal but limited points of fund-raising focus and some real value back for participation would give the effort shape and identity that a more general program would not have. It would build the sense of community (and good-natured community pressure) and still offer all services to all comers during the rest of the year. Hope that is helpful and worth considering. Pond Scum | |||||
| 51 | ProudestMonkey ID: 4220113 Mon, Mar 05, 12:28 |
Guru, one of the other message forums that I follow, HomeTheaterForum, has an interesting way of designating the differences between posters. If you have a minute, you may want to check it out! | |||||
| 52 | Johnny Lightning ID: 5523179 Wed, Mar 07, 10:38 |
I use this site for Baseball and Football and am willing to make a donation during those periods. As far as standings go, some members have or have had 5 or more teams in the standings. How bout limiting it to 1 or 2? That seem reasonable. | |||||
| 53 | Motley Crue ID: 101010298 Thu, Mar 08, 14:31 | Just want to throw in a vote AGAINST limiting anyone's ability to post on the boards. I mean, unless it is Big G. But I think this site thrives on the boards. You don't want to limit the sprawling discussions or damage people's conceptions of the boards, Guru. And I think it would be a real turn-off for a lot of folks if they had limited posting ability. This was evidenced during Select-gate. | |||||
| 54 | azdbacker ID: 230212320 Thu, Mar 08, 18:23 |
Guru, I support whatever you feel is necessary. No offense meant, but IMO anyone who is not willing to pay $1 has no say in what should happen here. The reason we are discussing this at all is because Guru needs to make enough money to break even - that's it. As free users of his service (which nets him no profit) I don't see where one has the right to call a policy which would help his website continue (free for everyone who can't pay) 'elitist'. GDogg, you have already said you would have no problem sending $1. I doubt anyone else would either. Since when is payment for services rendered considered 'elitist'? I don't get upset at the USA Today for charging me 50 cents for their paper everyday. If I want their service I pay for it. What's so Earth-shattering about this concept. Pony up your Buck, if that's what's decided, or move on. As I said, Dave, whatever's decided is fine by me. Recognition and perks for donors result in more desire for the average person to donate, and therefore more revenue for you. That's what we should be pushing for. I also wouldn't mind if your own games became pay-to-play ($5 or so). StLCards, "p.s. college students, you can always sell plasma and cut down on the alcohol consumption ;-)" - LMAO, actually that's how I PAID for my alcohol consumption when I was in college. | |||||
| 55 | azdbacker ID: 230212320 Thu, Mar 08, 18:42 |
GDogg, as much as I disagree with your opinion regarding the 'elitism' of Guru using $ contributions as a tie-breaker for inclusion in the standings, you have made me think of possible alternatives. How about everyone who is included in the standings before the season starts has the option of making a $5 donation. Half of the money earned goes in a pool, and is distributed at the end of the season to the top (or top 5, or whatever) contributing GuruPatron(s) at the end of the season. Those that can't afford the $5, or don't want to for whatever reason, are still able to be included - they just can't win a prize. Sound fair to you? | |||||
| 56 | biliruben ID: 3502218 Thu, Mar 08, 18:45 | Would this be legal, azd? | |||||
| 57 | azdbacker ID: 230212320 Thu, Mar 08, 18:55 |
I didn't really think about that aspect, but I don't see why not. SW's 'Battle Hoops' game gives cash prizes to the top performers. I know there are fantasy baseball leagues all over the internet that take money and pay back a portion to the winners. Guru's Pickoff game awarded cash prizes - although no fee was required. Seriously, we're talking the internet here. As far as I can see, everything's legal on the net;) I don't think the money given out would amount to much more than your office Super Bowl pool, and while those are very-technically not legal, nobody's stopping it. I'm not sure, but I believe if the case can be made that you are, in fact, paying for the service provided (not for the potential reward) then it's not considered gambling. | |||||
| 58 | azdbacker ID: 230212320 Thu, Mar 08, 19:12 |
All-in-all, I think the polls have shown that no other measures should be necessary for us to keep this site up (as long as the people who said they would give whatever amount actually do). But I also think that in order to stay that way, there needs to be a more tangible reason for newcomers to eventually donate. The site needs to remain free if at all possible. When I found this site last year, I would certainly not have paid a fee. That being said, after a month here, and liking what I saw, if I happened upon the Gurupie Standings and saw that I needed to donate $1 or more to Dave to be included, I surely would have. Then as you go deeper and deeper into the tools on this site and see occasional notes and listings of donors, as you see certain respected Gurupies whose name says "Patron" next to it, you are more likely to donate more yourself. As your WWR goes from 10,000 to top 1000 and you enjoy the game more than ever - you send Guru $5 after the season. It's a natural progression. Add a contest/game or two, for a $5 fee with small prizes, and suddenly I'm hooked for at least $50 a year. 'Create' 10-20 newbies like me each season, in addition to what already exists, and you have a boom going on. | |||||
| 59 | cab ID: 50252211 Wed, Mar 21, 03:28 |
I caught up on the forum developments a couple of days ago.Since then i have been thinking about it- First of all let me say this is an absolutely fantastic site and my compliments go to the Guru for providing it. I am not a frequent poster(this is my first outside of the golf forum i think)but I am a frequent visitor(about 6 months now) and therefore mostly a lurker.As a non US citizen it has given me the chance to understand and enjoy sports from your part of the world(the main reason i started playing fantasy sports in the first place)and thanks to cable TV etc we get to see a lot more football, basketball etc and I simply love to watch sport, no matter what it is. I have to admit when i first saw the idea of someone asking for donations to help support a site i did baulk a wee bit. My general perception is that people who create websites ,for whatever reason,whether it be to provide info,share ideas,a hobby, commercial reasons or simply make them for the heck of it, should be responsibe for the upkeep,server costs, etc etc (on the scale of things I am relatively new to the internet world so i have no real idea what these costs are)for their own website.Also the thought of sending money to someone i dont know from a bar of soap didn't really appeal to me i have to say. I don't mean to be mean spirited,a bludger offend you or anything like that Guru,those are just my honest, initial thoughts. When it all boils down to it, I have to be sure in my own mind that the reasons for the appeal are genuine,and that the person involved is genuine before I start sending money. After taking time out to think about it and reading these threads several times I believe that everything is above board,(my general feeling is that is was anyway)and I would be more than willing to contribute.You do need to provide a postal address though :) as I have no other way to send it. Now for a crazy idea!! (and not too much laughing!! ;) ) Recently we were introduced to funbets through one of the ads. Now, I have accumulated around 40 bucks or so, so far. Is it possible that any money that is supposed to come my way(i will believe it when i see it!) from funbets, get sent to you instead? I don't know what communication you have with them,how it could be done,but i would gladly send all money your way if it is at all possible.Would be a great way for others ,who are like me, not overly wealthy to contribute I think. I play at funbets for the same reason i play fantasy sports- for the fun of it,and the competition against real people,far and wide as opposed to computers.The prizes/money are of secondary importance but it would be a great incentive to gamble away knowing it will benefit us at rotoguru.com!! just a wild, whacky thought. Sorry about the ramble,had to get my thoughts out there and i hope no offence is taken.. | |||||
| 60 | Perm Dude ID: 28059111 Wed, Mar 21, 10:19 |
hey cab, some good thoughts here. You seem like an entirely realistic guy; do you play other SW games? Love to see you on the other boards. If you click the new GuruPatron link here , you will be taken to the donation page which gives a postal address for donations. Thanks for going above-the-call. Frankly most people just won't send anything, either because they don't want to (the majority) or they can't. pd | |||||
| 61 | azdbacker ID: 230212320 Wed, Mar 21, 20:39 | cab, I had the exact same idea as you did about Funbets. I don't use that site too much, but am currently averaging about $5-10/month. I plan to endorse any checks I receive to David Hall, and redirect them his way. Personally, I think this would be a good thing for the younger people here who have trouble coming up with money themselves to help out. Instead, just send Guru your Funbets check ,which you most likely would not have gotten in the first place w/o this site. | |||||
| 62 | cab ID: 50252211 Thu, Mar 22, 05:04 |
Azbacker-Although i said the funbets idea was somewhat of a whacky idea ,(i actually thought of it while i was sitting on my chuff on a taxi stand the other day ;) ) my committment to have the cheques sent to the Guru was totallly serious. I have to assume that your post was a serious response and therefore would like to know how I can get the cheques put in the Gurus name.My experiences with cheques is that if it is in my name that it has to go into my bank acount.I assume that i may have to change my details at Funbets to get it sent elsewhere.As I said I am from outside of the U.S(New Zealand actually) so I have no idea if this is A) legal and B) whether there is a moral issue..ie getting monies from one site and moneteraly supporting another.(although the money is suppossed to come to me so i can do what i want with it,right?) Anyways my e-mail address is cabbies@ihug.co.nz and I would apppreciate any advice as to how I can have the money sent to Dave. PD-I played football last year and finished just on the 20,000 mark.At that time i didn't know the difference between a running back and a wide receiver!! We have been getting live telecasts of monday night football for a while now and it was one way for me to get a basic understanding of the game,it's rules and strategies.Actually before i found rotoguru the SW boards(before they were a total shambles) gave me a great insight into the game.(one of the posters,and i forget his name now,(chad?)was top of the standings till the last couple of weeks)Also it took me about a week and a half until i found out what a TD was in hoops!! it was worth ten points, thats all i knew!!that's how little i knew about American sports.Since golf has started i have let my hoops team go a little but next year i hope to give it a real go. I doubt you will see me on the other boards much , cause there are far more other intelligent posters who know much more about your sports teams than i would ever learn in my lifetime.(a dumb question may come every now and then though!!!) | |||||
| 63 | azdbacker ID: 230212320 Thu, Mar 22, 14:30 |
cab, upon receipt of your check (or cheque, as you whacky Euros like to call it) from Funbets, simply sign your name on the back as usual. Then, directly underneath your signature, print "Pay to the order of David Hall." Send the check to the address Guru provided, and all he has to do is sign his name underneath your endorsement. I believe that is how it works - someone correct me if I'm wrong. | |||||
| 64 | Motley Crue ID: 101010298 Thu, Mar 22, 14:57 | Cab is from New Zealand. Hey, you said correct you if you were wrong... | |||||
| 65 | biliruben ID: 3502218 Thu, Mar 22, 18:25 |
Sometimes banks balk at taking 3rd party checks, though depositing is often easier than cashing. I would guess New Zealand checks would be particularly suspicious! ;) | |||||
| 66 | Perm Dude ID: 582521316 Thu, Mar 22, 18:31 |
I think the New Zealanders would need to sign on the opposite side, no? :) Actually, it's probably a US check (from FunBets) but being routed through New Zealand, like all good money laudering schemes should. pd | |||||
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