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Subject: Responses to your feedback Posted by: Guru - [330592710] Mon, Aug 14, 14:34 Rather than adding more bulk to the several threads offering feedback, let me start anew. I sincerely appreciate the fervor of all of your responses. It is clear that, regardless of your opinion, you are all passionate about this forum, and want to see it live long and prosper. And for that I am grateful. And although I haven't tallied the reactions, my sense is that the general reaction is neutral to positive. It is usually the case that the most vehement reactions seem more prevalent than they are, and I think that's the case here, too. I've come up with several good (I think) analogies to try to show why some of these "elitism" rants are missing the point, but it seems that most of those tirades are founded in emotion, and if the passage of time doesn't calm your fury, my lame analogies aren't likely to help. But allow me one brief anecdote. Remember when Jeff Nelson spouted off in anger at not being selected for the All Star team? Shoot, it was even his manager who was responsible! Well, if that's how Joe Torre felt about him, then how could he ever feel like putting out his best effort on the field the next time he was called into a game? What an insult! An emotional reaction, for sure. Pretty ridiculous, too. Does anyone really think Joe Torre considered Jeff Nelson "unworthy"? For that matter, All Star games are themselves totally elitist, and should never be sanctioned by professional sports. Who do they think they are to say that some players are more worthy than others? And why do the player unions allow it? Essentially, 95% of all players are being told that they are second class citizens! What I've done is pick out 45 people that I've asked to try to stimulate a thought provoking forum for users who don't want to wade through a lot of the stuff that, although it is appreciated by many, still clutters the forum board. But instead, many of you seem to think I have specifically picked out 95% of the forum users and told them to please keep their opinions to themselves. And some of you are so incensed that you're now going to take your ball with you and go play with Jeff Nelson. Enough. At least most everyone has acknowledged the need for some sort of course correction. Many have offered alternatives. But I have yet to see the perfect alternative. Some have gone to great lengths to correct potential problems that may not even be worth correcting. Why not try this approach for awhile and see what really needs to be fixed? For example, I certainly don't want every thread I initiate to automatically appear in a select forum! How could I ever poke fun at Perm Dude? And there's no reason for every "walkian psychobabble", or "WABian insult" to make that cut, either. But I do think they are capable of starting some good threads, and I also trust them to be able to tell the difference. Hopefully, this emphasis will stimulate more "meaty" threads, as well. The problem wasn't solely the ratio of fluff/stuff; the absolute volume of good stuff has been diminishing. Other observations on the alternatives:
With all that said, there are some suggestions that may have some merit, and if they are warranted, they'll certainly be considered. I want to create a forum area that the "no frills" users will find thought provoking, easy to use, and consistently on topic. And I decided that I am more likely to get that result if I "deputize" a number of individuals that have impressed me with their insight, their openness, their wisdom, their appropriate use of humor, & their experience. Does that mean that I approve of everything that these folks have ever posted? Obviously not. Shoot, WAB has irritated me as much as anyone at times! But I've also learned some things from him. And in spite of that atrocious Guzman recommendation of his, I still think he can bring some value - especially if I ask him to. Does this mean that I have overtly denigrated 95% of the material posted at the forum? That's seems like a ridiculous inference, doesn't it? Several of you have tossed around accusations of "elitism" and "prejudice". I'm not going to debate that, because it's unnecessary. I'm willing to concede that there are elements of elitism and prejudice inherent in this format. And I'm not going to apologize for it, either, because I don't think elitism and prejudice are necessarily wrong… or even politically incorrect. In my opinion, "elite" is not a 4 letter word. Do I think people like Madman or Sludge or Steve Houpt are "elite" when it comes to their analytical ability as it applies to sports - and their willingness to share it openly? You bet I do! In fact, although some of you recoil at the notion, I think most Gurupies are elite. Perhaps there are a few who are unflatteringly snobbish about it, but most are very approachable, if not self-effacing. If you have the passion for fantasy sports and consider yourself a Gurupie, you are probably among the elite of fantasy sports, whether you're comfortable with that or not. And I want to build a place where you can take full advantage of associations with other elite fantasy sports enthusiasts. Does this mean that I consider all non-Gurupies to be inferior? I don't think that's what I said at all. Clearly, there are some very highly ranked managers who are unknown to any of us. They may be more elite than any of us - if they are excelling without access to many of the advantages that Gurupies enjoy. So saying that one group of people are elite does not automatically relegate all others to the garbage pile. How about "prejudice"? Consider this. Suppose you notice two new threads, one submitted by Madman, and one submitted by blue hen. Before peeking inside either one, do you have an expectation about which is likely to be more "select"? I know I sure do. I'm very comfortable prejudging them. But that prejudice is based on my experience at reading other posts by both of them. It's not based on some arbitrary factor, like the color of their feathers. And does that mean that every Madman thread will be more "select" than every blue hen thread? Probably not. In fact, I'll bet if I scouted around, I could find a blue hen thread and a Madman thread that were contrary to the norm. And I'm happy to continue to have both participate in the forum. They both add a perspective that has a useful role to play. But for the select forum, I think it's probably not a bad idea to rely on my prejudice. And if I recall correctly, blue hen said pretty much the same thing. As I said several times, I will be expanding the "elite" list. I don't expect that everyone on the list will be active at the select forum. I'm sure some will never start a thread. But I want to give them that opportunity, and I hope they accept the privilege as an honor, or an accolade, an assessment by me that I recognize and appreciate their contributions to this forum, whether via analytical rigor, or thoughtful observations, or witty retorts, or community building, or moderating, or a variety of other talents that all mesh together to create something special. And those that have not (yet) been recognized should not look at this as a snub. When someone is singled out as "Guru Jr.", does everyone else whine about being considered second class? Of course not. Celebrate the recognition given to others, and do your best to contribute according to your strengths and interests. If it's meant to be, your time will come. And please don't expect me to be intimately familiar with the varied contributions of a thousand different posters. Especially when there is no face or voice to associate with a name, it is very difficult to keep everyone straight. For one reason or another, those who I have singled out have done something to catch my attention. As I said, many other names are familiar to me, but I have trouble recalling the usual context in which many of them post. Now that I have a reason to be more attentive, I'll try to take appropriate notice. Morals: A few more responses to some of the objections raised: The select forum is an inappropriate solution because it will lead to duplicate topics. Guess what? We already get a lot of duplicate topics on a single board. Not a deal-buster. The select list is comprised of mostly "long time" Gurupies, and is biased against those who have arrived more recently. While there are a few newer names on the list, I'll grant that most have been around for awhile. That's obviously because I've had more opportunity to experience their contributions. As newer contributors become better known, they'll get their due. There's nothing inappropriate about that. Some of the listed people are probably not as strong in football as in other sports. Of course. But it doesn't always require football expertise to start a good thread. A good thread can always start with a question, rather than an answer. And as the football forum gets into full swing, we'll discover the football talent. Many of them haven't been around for awhile. (And some of them did come back, but were appalled at what they found!) Finally, thanks to many of you for sticking up for me and my honorable intentions - even if you have reservations about the approach. I'll probably have more to say later, but I'm going to go jump in the lake (i.e., Lake Erie) now... which I'm sure is what some of you have been trying to tell me to do! | ||||||
| 1 | walk ID: 104739 Mon, Aug 14, 14:50 |
You go boyeeeeee! Guru, if only the writers in The NY Times had such good written communication skills. Well done, sir. Well done indeed! Thanks, - walk | |||||
| 2 | Ref ID: 1442849 Mon, Aug 14, 15:08 |
Walk, you're just upset because guru finally wrote a thread longer than yours ;) Guru, you mention football skills. Well there are several people here from the UK that do better than many on here and they get their info from here or even on-line. Look how well they did in hoops. Very good points. Some of those people--asked some questions (remember Dai) that most took for granted until some research was done to prove otherwise. We were better as a whole for some of their thought-provoking questions. Perhaps if this works out well and people continue to be added that this "select" forum will become the norm (like DG first suggested) and people can earn the right to start posts. A lot of clutter has been cleaned up just since I suggested to J if he would be the daily price change thread starter. I think his daily post is all-encompassing (FS and MS) and helped with several repeated thread problems we had when people were "racing" to post the first thread. Perhaps this new system will help on those things w/o having to say anything. If you continue to do the same things, you should expect the same results. If you want different results, you should try something different. I think you've done that. If it doesn't work out like you planned--back to the drawing board. | |||||
| 3 | Myboyjack ID: 4443038 Mon, Aug 14, 15:14 | I don't exactly like the new division of posters and probally never will; but after reading this post, can there be any doubt that Guru has the best interests of our little collective at heart? Everyone should now click an ad! | |||||
| 4 | Mike D ID: 1417106 Mon, Aug 14, 15:17 | I nominate this for the Forum Keepers. | |||||
| 5 | Willix ID: 494739 Mon, Aug 14, 15:31 |
Impressive indeed Dave! Your communication skills with the keyboard are impeccable. I was wondering how you were going to respond to all of the different points of view in a logical manner. Once again you have outdone yourself. While I was reading I kept thinking to myself, "Guru has eloquently written what a lot of us were thinking!" Not an easy task. But like I said before, there is no one else here more diplomatic or democratic than Guru. Bravo! | |||||
| 6 | Ref ID: 1442849 Mon, Aug 14, 16:20 | Wilix, this isn't a democracy here, but I understand what you're saying. Also, I beleive a historic leader proved that you can't govern by opinion polls alone. | |||||
| 7 | man ID: 326492615 Tue, Aug 15, 10:29 | Thanks for responding, Guru. Your comments made me wonder what would have happened if you had just made it clear that the select forum was a place for serious, informative posting, without the permissions. But again, I appreciate your intent. | |||||
| 8 | 6-9 With The Afro ID: 2245413 Wed, Aug 16, 10:05 |
I told myself I wasn't going to read this forum or post here and yet as I was sifting through the many, many threads on the open forum I felt lost and overwhelmed. I came here and was immediately met with some very good, well thought out posts. So I eat crow. So far this forum has lived up to it's billing and I hope it continues. Originally I was against the thought of only some people having thread starting permission and I didn't like the thought of dividing the site into two. But if it can stay the course it is on now then this forum will become a valuable tool that compliments the open forum and both forums will thrive. | |||||
| 9 | QB ID: 5565183 Wed, Aug 16, 10:22 |
I am glad to see someone who has turned around. I have been away from the board for some time, but I still lurk and add the odd comment or comentary. And I was not part of the list of "Starters" probably due to my absence, but I was not offended at all and I am once again amazed a Dave's tact and skill in talking to us all. This is a great counter arguement Dave and be prepared to see more of my from now on :) QB | |||||
| 10 | Stuck in the Sixties ID: 584122610 Wed, Aug 16, 10:38 |
What has impressed me even more than the arguments in Guru's post is the passion that has obviously fueled these boards from the beginnng. This is my first year here and, except to check the injury updates, I get all my analysis and information right here. Again, as a newbie, I cannot adequately convey how much I appreciate what you've established, Guru, and in the long run I suspect the current concern about elitism will turn out to be much ado about nothing. Keep up the good work! Don | |||||
| 11 | BIG RUSS ID: 47622518 Wed, Aug 16, 17:59 |
I would also like to say that this was well written. There has been A LOT of emotion flowing on the board over the last week and I thought this was wonderful way to express exactly what Guru's intentions were in setting up two different posting areas for football. I am honored and thankful to be added to the list, knowing that I contributed something of value to these boards. Good luck to all in the 2000 season. | |||||
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