| Football Forum View the Forum Registry | Self-edit this thread |
|
| 0 |
Subject: Racist comment? You make the call. Posted by: patjams - [24941810] Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 12:11 Owens sticks foot in his mouth. "We get into the endzone more than they do." I'm usually not one to get into these sort of things and I am a Niners fan, but I have to wonder, if a white guy made this kind of comment, would the league, media and public be up in arms? | ||||||
| 1 | Myboyjack Leader ID: 108231015 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 12:16 | Well, if a white guy had said it - he'd be wrong. Owens is an idiot - but I don't see the "We get in the end-zone..." comment as much - I find it hard to charecterize a statement of fact as racist - even when spoken by a moron. | |||||
| 2 | Whitey Sustainer ID: 47130129 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 12:18 |
If I were the niners, I would never let this guy talk to the media unsupervised. This is a very racist statement he is making. Sure, african-american players probably cross the goal-line more frequently than a white player. Does that mean that TO has to use that as an "excuse" to act like a buffoon? He is a bad man and I have always hated the guy for what he stands for. | |||||
| 3 | patjams ID: 24941810 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 12:19 | True, but tell that to Jimmy the Greek. | |||||
| 4 | Whitey Sustainer ID: 47130129 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 12:20 |
mbj - There is one word in his statement that makes it racist...THEY. He is breaking it down into racial groups and comparing and contrasting. This is what we as a nation have been trying to move past and because of people like Owens we never will. | |||||
| 5 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 1832399 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 12:20 | It is not a racist statement. It's racially insensitive, and that so many people don't understand the difference is sad. | |||||
| 6 | Whitey Sustainer ID: 47130129 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 12:21 | MITH - I wish you would elaborate so that those of us who have half-a-brain can understand. | |||||
| 7 | Myboyjack Leader ID: 108231015 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 12:27 | I put the whole thing down to the old "If a tree falls in the forest, and no one's there - does it make a sound?" spin. Who really cares what TO's opinions on social issues or race relations are? Who listens? | |||||
| 8 | root88 ID: 359101014 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 12:27 | I wish that Owens, Moss, Glenn, and "The Future" would all hop in a car together and get in a drunk driving accident. Are all WR's jerks? | |||||
| 9 | J Leader ID: 49346417 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 12:28 |
All T.O. did was state a fact. I bet if someone computed the statistics, black players have scored more touchdowns than white players. While that is not racism, it is racially insensitive. Its like saying white people make more money than black people. Using the raw numbers, thats probably a true statement, not racism, but its "racially insensitive". As far as Owens goes, I like the guy. I'm not a Niners fan, but I think what he did was hilarious. Sure, he's a moron for playing football with a Sharpie in his sock (amongst other things), but I thought it was hilarious. I, however, thought the running to the star he did in Dallas was wrong, FWIW | |||||
| 10 | smallwhirled Donor ID: 17152614 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 12:29 | I think Moss would have to be the guy driving that car. ;) | |||||
| 11 | Kings Fan ID: 57956310 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 12:30 | Reggie White probably didn't think it was racist comment. I just chalk it up to Owens speaking his mind again. He's an idiot... | |||||
| 12 | Whitey Sustainer ID: 47130129 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 12:36 |
J - I agree with your point on blacks scoring more touchdowns. I just want to know how that has anything to do with him signing the football for the fan. It seems like he had wanted to make that point about black football players and he basically forced it into the story when it was not necessary. I can't believe you said you actually like Owens, J. What is there to like about the person. He is a great football player, but that doesn't mean I like the guy one bit. | |||||
| 13 | C.C. SOLDIERS ID: 467393122 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 12:54 |
Definately not a racist remark. Definately an insensitive remark. However, I dont think the guy means harm or is tryin to disrespect the game. He's probably just an idiot. He does not think about the outcomes of his actions until it causes an uproar. I think he's a really nice guy. He's just an idiot. | |||||
| 14 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 1832399 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 12:56 |
Whitey: He is breaking it down into racial groups and comparing and contrasting. IMO, there's nothing wrong with comparing white people to black people to French people to blonde people to disabled people to stupid people to astronauts to homeless people to fat people. Once you start drawing those lines, there's no telling where to stop. ================================ I really don't like the definition below. I feel it leaves the term too easily applied to situations that may not be racially charged at all, but even under it, Owens' quote still does not apply as racism. From Merriam-Websters: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race Nothing Owens said shows any belief that race is a primary determinant of human traits and capacities. Nothing Owens said shows belief that differences in his race or any other race produce any superiority over any other race. "We get into the endzone more than they do." Big deal. No different than if he had said, "Asians score better on math tests than we do", except that he doesn't have the sense to express himself a little more carefully on what he knows is a touchy subject. On your assertion that he just said it to make that point about black football players - unnecessarily forcing it into the story, I completely disagree. I believe part of the point he intends when he says blacks are more expressive, is that black players are generally more showey or flamboyant and that they get in the end zone more is just another example of that. The very next sentence confirms this: Owens told the paper that the public misinterprets the actions of African-American athletes. I think it's a great shame that people throw around such a strong and harmful word as racism, apparently without knowing what it means. That single word can do a lot of damage when it is wrongfully applied, sometimes (not this case) even more than the actions and feelings it intends to depict. | |||||
| 15 | Whitey Sustainer ID: 47130129 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 13:01 |
Do you doubt that Terrell Owens is indirectly saying black athletes are more talented than white athletes. Notice I used the word indirectly. Even Owens is probably not dumb enough to straight out say it, but you can bet your bottom dollar that he is thinking it. I don't like the word racist either, but I think saying something is racially insensitive is a copout | |||||
| 16 | StLCards Sustainer ID: 4431816 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 13:03 |
I wonder how many times he would cross the goal line if his QB wasn't any good? Since Garcia threw him the ball, maybe he should be allowed to sign it first? The whole thing seems ludricous to me. I'm not sure what a white sportscaster has to do with this? I would think it would be cool had he signed the ball and given it to little Joey who was a big fan and had cancer or something, but giving it to his financial advisor (who happened to be sitting in seats somehow owned by Springs), makes it a self motivated act IMO. Maybe Springs should autograph Owens' jersey next time he tackles him, LOL. I think the NFL fine for the shirt out is ridiculous as well. Either fine him for the pen or don't as that seems to be the real issue, but don't disguise the fine as something else. | |||||
| 17 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 1832399 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 13:09 | If you want to indict people for what you think they are thinking then I've got a few books for you to read about some people's ideas of how a world where people think like that would be to live in. Go ahead and bet your bottom dollar that his intentions are racist, I didn't hear the tone in his voice, see the look on his face or ever have a single conversation with the man in my life. He sounds like a moron to me and personally I have trouble believing that someone who would say such an asinine thing to the media would do so as he deftly hides his truer, much more racist opinions. | |||||
| 18 | patjams ID: 24941810 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 13:11 |
When he says, "We're the ones that get into the end zone" I'm sure he isn't implying that without the black guys there would be no scoring. (<---Tongue in cheek) And what does signing a football have to do with "being more expressive than the white guys"? How is that expressive? I thought I'd heard it all until I heard TO compare himself to Picasso. Now I'm sure I've heard it all. | |||||
| 19 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 1832399 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 13:12 |
And one other thing, I think saying something is racially insensitive is a copout When someone says something that I find racially insensitive, that's what I call it. When someone says something that I find racist in nature, I don't pull punches. When you apply a stron word to a situation that does not warrant it, you diminish the meaning of the word. | |||||
| 20 | Whitey Sustainer ID: 47130129 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 13:17 |
MITH - YOu can't take everything someone says at face value. Haven't you ever read into something that somebody said to you and known what they really meant? I could be dead wrong on this...but I might be right on. Like Stl. Cards said, what does it matter that the sportscasters were white? "You have white sportscasters...me, I'm black" What does that quote mean? I'm asking because I have no idea. "Look at the skilled players...we're the ones that get in the endzone" You can't read into that statement at all? I don't want to argue with you on this because 1) it's not the right forum and 2) I don't have any personal beef with you. | |||||
| 21 | leggestand ID: 501029817 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 13:21 | When I read it, I thought the same thing Whitey. The sentence about sportscasters being white and he is black. I don't know what he is trying to say there. Is he saying that since they are white, they don't give him props for what he does, I have no clue? | |||||
| 22 | jd ID: 36940175 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 13:32 |
In one of the games played on Sunday, didn't another player use his finger to make it look like he was signing the football and toss it into the crowd? When I saw Owens use a sharpie on Monday I thought he got the idea from the highlights on Sunday but he just took it to another level by really signing the ball. | |||||
| 23 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 1832399 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 13:33 |
Whitey, one thing that I find often gets me into trouble is that when people say things, I DO take them at face value. People use words to express themselves. Words have meanings. When you apply different meanings to words than how can you expect anyone to know what you are talking about? If we don't expect people to always mean what their words intend than how can anyone ever be accountable for what they say? Maybe it's because I work in news, though I think I've been this way for much longer than I've had this job. In any case I often find people telling me that they did not mean what they said after I call them on it. Personally, I think it's a tragedy. Racism is a tough, tough thing to accuse someone of. By throwing that term around to mean lesser insensitivities, you diminish the meaning of a word that should be very powerful. Keep doing it and soon stepping on a bug will be a racist act. Unless you are some super PC freak, maybe one day someone will call you a racist even though you didn't make any statements that could be understood that way in the slightest and then you would understand. Patjams And what does signing a football have to do with "being more expressive than the white guys"? It's expressive in that it's an excessively flamboyant, showy and pretentious act. His Picasso diatribe is just another example of his expressiveness, comparing his game to a work of art. The ESPN story does leave quite a bit out. SF Examiner article in question Owens said the NFL targets African-American players with rules against self-expression. Consequently, he said, the public misinterprets the actions of African-American athletes, who are often vilified when showing the slightest bit of emotion on the field. "You have a white guy as an announcer and sportscaster. Me, I'm black. I do it and I've already done some stuff in the past," he said. "We're (African-Americans) more expressive than the white guys. You look at the skilled players. We're the ones that get into the end zone. We get in the end zone more than they do." Tune the TV to ESPN and there is Owens again, debating Sean Salisbury. Owens knew his autograph-signing episode would be the topic of discussion when he agreed to appear Tuesday on ESPN. What he didn't expect, he said, was a full-frontal assault by Salisbury. "I guess he's trying to make a name for himself," Owens said. "Everybody has downfalls, has flaws. Obviously I've got some. Not everybody is going to be in agreement with you." Owens also partly blames Salisbury for igniting the controversy, saying the broadcaster "stirred the whole thing up. He wants to be famous, be across the nation. At the same time, I'm across the nation, too. An idiot? Absolutely. But none of this shows racism. | |||||
| 24 | CanEHdian Pride Donor ID: 48936413 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 13:33 |
Not sure really where I stand on the issue but I think the comments have racism implied in them. If John Gruden was asked what he thought about the low percentage of black coaches in the leauge and he answered by saying "Well, we do have a better winning percentage" and this fact, when the numbers were studied, actually did check out would the comment not be viewed as racist. He didn't explictly say that he thought white coaches were better than black coaches but his citing a fact to back up an implied statement simply cannont be viewed as anything but racist in nature. Also the fact that he said "look at the skilled players"....isn't that implying that black athletes are "skilled" and others aren't? The comments are definatley insensitive and borderline racist. | |||||
| 25 | Tree ID: 599393013 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 13:36 |
what owens said, was without doubt, moronic, and at the very least, racially insensative. someone above used the argument that it might well be a statement of fact. but if Joe Montana were to come out and say "we work harder than they do, and that's why more of us have college degrees," then, fact or otherwise, you can bet your lily white ass that Al "give me a platform and a pie" Sharpton and Jesse "The media invented my anti-semitism" Jackson would be all over him. so no, what Owens said is NOT ok. someone should muzzle his stupid ass. Tree | |||||
| 26 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 1832399 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 13:41 |
Wrong, Pride. q Coach Gruden, what about the low percentage of black coaches in the leauge? a "Well, we do have a better winning percentage" This context would explicitly imply that whites are inherently better coaches and offers no explanation oter than that it is because they are white. That example walks a superfine line. Owens uses that blacks get into the endzone more often as an example that blacks are simply more expressive - a poor example agreed but he is not attempting proof that blacks are better in any way. | |||||
| 27 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 1832399 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 13:43 | Tree, I wouldn't use Jesse Jackson and certainly not A Sharpton as a reference for the definition of racism. BTW, I've got a VHS here for you. Sorry I flaked on that. I'll send you an email now. | |||||
| 28 | Whitey Sustainer ID: 47130129 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 13:46 |
MITH - I may be reading the article wrong, but isn't Owens equating skilled players with black players? "Look at the skilled players..we're the ones that get in the endzone." When he says "we're" he is referring to black players, is he not? | |||||
| 29 | patjams ID: 24941810 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 13:47 | We can all have our opinions, but we can't say with or without a doubt if TO meant to imply that blacks are better. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I say he wasn't. However, I can certainly see how someone could read those statements and believe that that is exactly what he was trying to imply while still toeing the line. Bottom line, white guy makes those statements and he's in a whole hell of a lot of hot water. | |||||
| 30 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 1832399 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 13:53 |
Whitey 28, I suppose that's possible, but I don't think that's what he means. I think he means something more like, look at the skilled players, among them, we're the ones that get in the endzone. Patjams 29, I fully agree there is an unfair double standard with what different groups seem to be able to get away with in public. I would never defend that, but taking a stance where, if I can't say it, you shouldn't either doesn't help. Just my opinion here, but I think people need to be less sensitive about what others say and more sensitive about what comes out of their own mouths. They certainly have a lot more control of the latter. | |||||
| 31 | Twarpy Leader ID: 408391814 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 14:04 |
How many people can honestly say that they don't make racial jokes with their friends? I can tell you that although my friends are of complete different ethnicities we constantly joke around with each other on the issue. Growing up playing sports also in Toronto where every region of the city is their own little country, you were constantly around it...some in good nature some in not so good nature. What Owens said hardly touches on anything id be offended by. I honestly am surprised at all the flack this one little comment has caused, racism isn't right but if Terrell Owens is fined for saying what he feels than Chris Rock and other comedians should be in jail. As viewers of sporting events we are sheltered from the little racials jokes that even Im sure Garcia and Owens would have, when one slips out into the public I dont see why we should be so offended. | |||||
| 32 | patjams ID: 24941810 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 14:09 | MITH, I agree. The truth is the truth no matter how you slice it. Percentages show that blacks do represent a higher percentage of the "skilled" positions. Somewhere along the line we as a society came to a place where it was wrong to state the truth in such an obvious way. However, the state of our society being as such, TO's comments sound racist. As I said before, Jimmy the Greek's comments many years ago were along these same lines. More or less truthful, but to many distasteful. I didn't agree with those who thought The Greek's comments were blatantly racist, but they still cost him his career. | |||||
| 33 | leggestand ID: 501029817 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 14:11 |
I don't think he is going to be fined by what he said. Also, racial jokes to your friends are different that statements made during an interview. If you hear a good racial joke from a buddy, would you go telling it to people you don't know? | |||||
| 34 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 1832399 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 14:12 | Twarpy, making a joke among friends or even trying to competitively rattle or psyche out an opposing player (even maliciously) is one thing, but addressing a nationally recognized media outlet with comments like his - which were not intended in jest (though I do not believe intended with maliciousness, either) - is stupid. People are sensitive, and athletes receive training on how to tiptoe around the media for just this reason. | |||||
| 35 | leggestand ID: 501029817 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 14:12 | Pardon my idoicy, but who is Jimmy the Creek? | |||||
| 36 | CanEHdian Pride Donor ID: 48936413 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 14:14 |
In the hypothetical situation above, Gruden is merely stating a fact. He is not saying that white coaches are better than black coaches but merely that, looking purely at numbers (facts), they have a higher winning percentage. Just as Terrell is, by citing the numbers, claiming that the "skilled players" get into the endzone more. He is justifying the situation much like Gruden would be doing. "Well it is too bad that there aren't more African-American coaches but we DO have a better winning percentage" "We are just more expressive but only because we get into the endzone more often" Or on the flipside, had Gruden come out in the media and said "God, they are all so expressive! I wish they would just hand the ball to the ref and walk off the field." That would cause a giant uproar, but I guess it is okay to use a stereotype as an excuse for not having to cough up any cash. Honestly I couldn't care either way what Owens says but it is an interesting conversation atleast. | |||||
| 37 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 1832399 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 14:15 | leggestand Jimmy The Greek | |||||
| 38 | chode ID: 75171322 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 14:15 |
I think Owens personally believes that on some level, blacks are generally better athletes than whites. (I think a whole lot of people think the same thing, but that's not the point here.) I think his comments were racially insensitive. I think if a white person said what T.O. said, in a similar context, he would be villified (see Jimmy the Greek, Jon Gruden observations above). I think our society is so far more sensitive/opposed to whites making such comments about blacks than vice versa that a double standard exists on this issue. I'm usually (not always) indifferent on this double standard, and I am in this case. I don't like it when 1) people claim there is no double standard, or 2) piss and moan about how it's unfair to whites. My general feeling is that if you make claim #1, you're either blind or naive. And if you're worried about the unfairness of #2, you disregard a whole bunch of other stuff that is likewise 'unfair' and frankly deserves more attention. Most importantly, who cares what Terrell Owens says anyway? | |||||
| 39 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 1832399 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 14:22 |
Pride, in your example, Gruden is being asked what he thinks about the low percentage of black coaches. That suggests that he is being asked to explain it. When he says we (whites) have a better winning %, he is in effect saying that whites are better coahes because whites win a higher percentage of games - in effect, because whites are better coaches. TO isn't being asked why blacks get into the endzone more often. He is saying that the media misunderstands black players and their expressiveness. He (poorly) cites that they get into the end zone more often as an example of that expressiveness. The most logical connection I draw is that the showyness and flamboyance of black athletes are examples of their expressiveness, and that one way in which black athletes are more showey and flamboyant is in that they score more TDs than other athletes. This logic, while it may be largely pointless, I cannot argue with. | |||||
| 40 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 1832399 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 14:24 | Did John Gruden actually say what Pride asserts in #36? I thought he was giving a hypothetical example. If it's true, does anyone have a link? | |||||
| 41 | leggestand ID: 501029817 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 14:27 | Wow, thanks for the line MITH. I can honestly say I have never heard of Jimmy the Greek, but that's a pretty crazy story. | |||||
| 42 | Whitey Sustainer ID: 47130129 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 14:31 |
MITH - I am fairly certain the Gruden example was just a hypothetical situation. I think we would have remembered it if he actually said it. Regarding Owens, when he says that "we" get into the endzone more often, how is that an example of "their" flamboyance or showystyle of play? I think he is stating that to prove the difference in skill levels between white and black players. I guess the fact that black players score more TDs than white players allows for more celebrations by black players. That may be his point as convoluted (sp?) as it is. | |||||
| 43 | StLCards Sustainer ID: 4431816 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 14:31 |
I'm curious as to the reasons that the NFL has implemented "excessive celebration" rules? Is it as TO suggests: Owens said the NFL targets African-American players with rules against self-expression. ? I never have quite figured out what the real reasons are. Endzone celebrations and the like seem harmless enough to me. I understand taunting, but celebrating? | |||||
| 44 | Whitey Sustainer ID: 47130129 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 14:32 | Re: 41...you're making me feel old right now and I'm only 28. Thanks leggestand!!! | |||||
| 45 | CanEHdian Pride Donor ID: 48936413 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 14:33 |
In your last comment there is absolutley no logical connection. The only implication he could possibly be making is that black athletes shouldn't be held accountable for excessive celebration because they are, by nature, more flamboyant. This is a stereotype. Plain and simple. The fact that they score more TDs has nothing to do with them being more flamboyant. It simply is a way to justify that they are allowed to act in this manner because the people are coming to see the "skilled players" and after they score a TD which the "skilled players" do more often they should be allowed to celebrate in any way they see fit because they are the reason that the fans are there. If you really can't read between the lines of TO's comments I don't think that you care to because it really is quite obvious. What would be his motivation for bringing up the fact the black athletes score more TDs. Noone asked him anything about that. The only reason it was brought into the interview at all is because in Terrell's warped mind he believes that since the "skilled players" are really what everyone is there to see anyway because they make more big plays and score more touchdowns, then they should be able to act any way they want. It is a comment made out of the mouth of an egotistical, young, punk who thinks that everyone is there strictly to see him. His comment about more TDs, taken alone is not racist in nature but when you read the entire interview it is quite obvious what he is saying. We put the butts in the seats, so we should entertain them with our flamboyant style. | |||||
| 48 | CanEHdian Pride Donor ID: 48936413 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 14:41 |
The Terrell Owens Award "Most Flamboyant Player of All Time"  Jerry Rice - 187 TDs | |||||
| 49 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 1832399 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 14:50 |
Whitey Regarding Owens, when he says that "we" get into the endzone more often, how is that an example of "their" flamboyance or showystyle of play? That's just the most logical conclusion I draw. Here's how I see his stance. He gets fined for wearing his shirt tail out of his pants in a game where he likely didn't deliberately do that. However, in that game, he did sign that football following the TD, which I think most agree is what that fine was really for. He apparently primarily blames Salisbury, the games announcer for much of the uproar over the ball signing. He defends himself by saying that the league misunderstands black players' expressiveness (an example of which is his signing the TD ball), pointing out that the Salisbury is white (less likely to understand black expressiveness). Then, IMO, he gives what he sees as an example of this expressiveness. Considering that he also equates his game to a work of art, it is not absurd to assume this is the connection he attempts (even if the connection itself is a little absurd). Read the SF Examiner quote again: "You have a white guy as an announcer and sportscaster. Me, I'm black. I do it and I've already done some stuff in the past," he said. "We're (African-Americans) more expressive than the white guys. You look at the skilled players. We're the ones that get into the end zone. We get in the end zone more than they do." In that context, that sentence fits in with the topic of the interview and with everything else he says. The "intended as a racist comment" context does not fit with the topic of the story at all. Also I guess the fact that black players score more TDs than white players allows for more celebrations by black players. That may be his point as convoluted (sp?) as it is. It didn't occur to me quite this way, but I think you are on to the idea there. The scoring of a TD is, in itself a showy achievement. It inspires celebration, which is often flamboyant, etc. | |||||
| 50 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 1832399 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 15:01 |
Pride I feel sorry for you, pal. Either that or I wish I had your ability to read minds. Like I said, they are just quotes. You can add whatever you want to them, take whatever you want out or stress any part you think necessary to make it mean whatever you want it to (or are afraid it might) mean. I wasn't at that interview. I didn't hear the tone in his voice, hear what words he stressed, see the expressions on his face. I don't know him or how he thinks or what kind of person he is other than pretty damn flamboyant and showy, and one hell of a wide receiver. You can draw watever conclusions you want and read between any real or imaginary lines you may perceive, but it takes more than that to convince me that a person is a racist. I need to hear someone say it outright or prove it with his actions before I'll believe it. People are so easily misunderstood - see posts 20 and 23. The last paragraph of #38 sums it up beter than I can. | |||||
| 51 | CanEHdian Pride Donor ID: 48936413 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 15:09 |
Simple question for you MITH: Why we? Why couldn't Terrell simply say "I score a lot of touchdowns and am a very flamboyant person."? He did something stupid and he is trying to use a stereotype of an entire culture to hide behind. I don't buy it my friend. If he wants to blame his showyness and flamboyance on his over inflated ego then he should step up in an interview and proclaim that HE is a flamboyant player, not that his entire race is more flamboyant then everyone else. This is the problem I have with his statements. Again back to a hypohtetical situation that you failed to respond to. "Gawd, those people are so damned flamboyant. Why can't they just spike the ball like everyone else" There is no way that you could defend a white coach/player that made these remarks. They are blatantly racist. Whereas: "Gawd, that moron is so damned flamboyant...." This comment is made directly at the offending party. Not racist. Why then when TO justifies his over zealous actions by making a stereotype of an entire race is it accepted? | |||||
| 52 | StLCards Sustainer ID: 4431816 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 15:13 | Of course in all of this we are also assuming that TO was even quoted correctly. | |||||
| 53 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 1832399 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 15:17 |
He did something stupid and he is trying to use a stereotype of an entire culture to hide behind. I don't buy it my friend. I agree with you, but this does not make him a racist. "Gawd, those people are so damned flamboyant. Why can't they just spike the ball like everyone else" There is no way that you could defend a white coach/player that made these remarks. They are blatantly racist. You seem to be arguing several different things at once, some of which I agree with, oters I don't. That statement (Why can't they just) is not really a racist statement, either. Though it's sure pretty insensitive. I don't challenge thatthere is a double standard. See post 30 and the last paragraph of 38. Why then when TO justifies his over zealous actions by making a stereotype of an entire race is it accepted? Who accepts it? It's an insensitve and utterly moronic thing to say. It's stereotyping, not racism. Those word mean two entirely different things. See posts 5 and 23. | |||||
| 54 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 1832399 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 15:20 | Some (many) stereotypes are there because they are accurate. I'm not about to get into a discussion about which ones are or aren't, but I think you are confusing those terms. Stereotypes (true or false) are often used insensitively, I don't think that's exactly the issue with TO, but in any case, I provided a definition for racism in 14. | |||||
| 55 | CanEHdian Pride Donor ID: 48936413 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 15:29 |
Perhaps the comments are not blatent racism as you do make some good points but I think that the fact remains, had equal comments been made by a white player/coach there would be a much bigger uproar and most likely some consequences would follow. "a poor example agreed but he is not attempting proof that blacks are better in any way." I disagree with this statement. I think refer to black athletes as "skilled players" who "get into the endzone more often" is in fact implying that blacks are better. Perhaps this is where we don't see eye to eye. Also, TDs ~= more flamboyance or expresiveness. Just ask Mr. Rice. | |||||
| 56 | Toral Sustainer ID: 2111201313 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 15:44 |
It was a simple statement of fact. Wide receiver and running back have become predominantly black positions and they do score a lot more touchdowns than "we" do. I can't for the life of me imagine why anyone would be offended by the comment. Toral | |||||
| 57 | RecycledSpinalFluid ID: 42121814 Fri, Oct 18, 2002, 17:50 | I wonder is t.o. included Barry Sanders in his "we". Now Barry was one overly expressive skilled player. | |||||
| 58 | Imfubar ID: 599391610 Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 07:06 |
After working 16 hours and getting home a hour ago and reading all these comments with no sleep last 24 hours here’s my $.02. I believe TO be a jerk and he feels that as a black man in the American culture that he has to defend what he did and said. I know and work with many people of color and we have had this discussion many times and they are convinced (and I must agree) that racism is still very prevalent in our society, and with that said, they often react by defending their culture and race, much as we whites are so quick to jump on this issue and point fingers and try to defend the actions of other jerks who happen to be white (read Jimmy the Greek) and others. My $.02 for what its worth. | |||||
| 59 | Tree ID: 22758146 Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 08:14 |
i think we can all draw a conclusion that TO may not be racist, but is, for sure, a jackass. Tree coffee good! | |||||
| 60 | sarge33rd ID: 5475257 Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 08:25 | 100% agreed Tree. | |||||
| 61 | Lutefisker Sustainer ID: 0912187 Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 08:28 |
Statement of fact: Jimmie the Greek made a true but racially insensitive statement and ceased to exist as a public personage. Statement of fact: TO made a true but racially insensitive statement and will continue to exist as a public personage. Statement of fact: The primary difference between the two racially insensitive people seems to be their color. Question: Where is the racism? Is it in the racially insensitive statement of facts or in the reaction to those racially insensitive statements by those who perceive them differently depending on the particular color of the person making the statement? | |||||
| 62 | Challenger ID: 135231212 Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 12:47 |
Owens attempting to take foot out of mouth Two days after claiming that black players are singled out for their on-field celebrations, San Francisco 49ers wide receiver Terrell Owens softened his tone Friday. ``This is not a racial issue. It's about perception,'' Owens said in a statement issued by the team. ``I am a target because of who I am and what I have done in the past. It seems like everything I do is taken to another level." Now is this his true feelings? The one thing I want to say is I felt the NFL was attempting to get at him over the Sharpie issue and lacking precedent/rules, the NFL chose this manner of penalty. (fine for untucked shirt) The reason I say this is OWENS ALWAYS SEEMS to have his shirt untucked and now the NFL powers to be choose to fine him for it? Very uncouth IMHO. A fan of Owens you ask? Only of his football skills. The man is a childish, whinney brat of a baby and I wish the tv crews would quit cutting to the sideline shots of where he's whinning in some Coach's/players ear about not being involved in the offense. Buuutttt, every dog has his day and IMHO Owens is rrrriiiiii...... uhhh, the NFL is wrong in singling him out.....this time. | |||||
| 63 | root88 ID: 359101014 Sat, Oct 19, 2002, 17:51 | Challenger: Someone obviously wrote that for him. | |||||
| 64 | Challenger ID: 135231212 Sun, Oct 20, 2002, 05:38 |
root, that's why I asked if it was Owen's true feelings. Look at it this way, Owens wasn't man enough (or he was to hard headed/shallow) to go to his Coach and smooth over their problems from the rift Owens caused in Dallas. Coach actually had to fly to Georgia this past offseason to initiate talks to get their working relationship into a manageable position. Then all of a sudden Owens is now trying to change the perception of his possibly perceived racist statement on his own? Either Owens actually learned something or someone was finally able to get his ear. Fiddle sticks! I can't believe I just said that! lol Now about my views on what the NFL was doing to Owens in fining him. After I posted my comments, I found a little paragraph in my local paper along my views. "Fining Terrell Owens $5,000 for an untucked shirt is like jailing Al Capone for income tax evasion." | |||||
| Rate this thread: | If you wish, you may rate this thread on scale of 1-5. Ratings should indicate how valuable or interesting you believe this thread would be to other users of this forum. A '5' means that this thread is a 'must read'. A '1' means that this is a complete waste of time. If you have previously rated this thread, rating it again will delete your previous rating. If you do not want to rate this thread, but want to see how others have rated it, then click the button without entering a rating, or else click here. | ||||||
| |||||||
Post a reply to this message: (But first, how about checking out this sponsor?) | |||||||